EL SHELBY Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Curious, with Ford punching out the 5.4L to its max of 5.8L, has anything be compromised when it comes to power mods? Has the high boost sustainability of the block been sacrificed to produce a liable 650hp with lower boost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shel-b001 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I would Curious, with Ford punching out the 5.4L to its max of 5.8L, has anything be compromised when it comes to power mods? Has the high boost sustainability of the block been sacrificed to produce a liable 650hp with lower boost? I would be more concerned about the spray weld on the cylinder walls & how will it stand up to years of service. We know the cast iron block will last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL SHELBY Posted November 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I would I would be more concerned about the spray weld on the cylinder walls & how will it stand up to years of service. We know the cast iron block will last. This would not be my concern at all. The process of thermal coating/spray arc or plasma coating has been used in the aerospace industry, specifically Jet engines for some time now. In fact, it’s often used in the repair of parts to build up material for re-machining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 The engine has a 7k redline. There had to have been some serious beefing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Dennis Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 One thing I have always felt good about was the reliability of FORD engines. I don't think that is an area they will compromise on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 We know the cast iron block will last. That's great, but isn't it aluminum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT/SC#0471 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 The engine has a 7k redline. There had to have been some serious beefing up. 7k wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 7k according to the gauge in the LA show at least - hope that's real. The engine pics posted show the same crappy i-beams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 7k wow! Yeah, only 800 RPM over the 5.4L redline. 800 RPM is nothing. Neither is 7,000 RPM. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Yeah, only 800 RPM over the 5.4L redline. 800 RPM is nothing. Neither is 7,000 RPM. Phill Have your limiter on your 5.4L set to 7,000, then do a few blasts. Report back. 800rpm is a HUGE increase on a boosted motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Have your limiter on your 5.4L set to 7,000, then do a few blasts. Report back. 800rpm is a HUGE increase on a boosted motor. I wouldn't have *any* problem doing that and in fact, during the last discussion on this I had more than one person PM me and say they've done it and NEVER had a problem. I wouldn't want to hit 8K on it, at least not very often but I wouldn't hesitate to take mine to 7K rpm at my current boost level. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT/SC#0471 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 7k according to the gauge in the LA show at least - hope that's real. The engine pics posted show the same crappy i-beams. What is crappy about them, they are forged though right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 What is crappy about them, they are forged though right? The 5.4L has "sintered" rods. Cheap cheap CHEAP rods, worse than cast rods IN MY OPINION. Ford calls them "forged" but they are "forged" SINTER, which is a powdered iron that is melted in to a forge rather than pouned out (i.e. "forged') from a solid blank. They're twisting words. I think I read the 5.8L has forged rods, or was it a forged crank? Maybe both? Either way, I've taken cast rods beyond 7K on LONG stroke engines but I've also always put ARP rod bolts in them, or in the case of my 8000K rpm limited H-D, no bolts at all. And yes, I *have* bumped the chip. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT/SC#0471 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Got it, powdered rods. So Phil tell me thats not a stroker Shovelhead you are taking to 8K Cool thanks for your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Got it, powdered rods. So Phil tell me thats not a stroker Shovelhead you are taking to 8K Cool thanks for your answer. Yeah, "powdered"...Sintered, in the mfg. process world. My H-D: S&S 89" stroker Evo~ Branch heads & Valves, ThunderHeader, S&S 560 cam, SE 8K ign. module. She screams. The rods are stock, the piston pin (& crown) gets moved. The weak link is the cast pistons! And yes, I scored one taking it to 8K! I figure, pistons are cheap....compared to a rod failure. But the *rods* are holding (no rod bolts, which is typically what breaks, not the *rod*). Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Have your limiter on your 5.4L set to 7,000, then do a few blasts. Report back. 800rpm is a HUGE increase on a boosted motor. Hmm. I plan on having a special tune made for my car that retains all of the FRPP 2.9L parameters but raises the Vehicle Speed Limiter to 250mph in order to try and hit my goal of 190+ mph at one of the standing mile events (with a 100% 50-State street legal tune). You just gave me a GREAT idea...now I'm going to see if Jon Lund/Revan Racing can raise my rev limiter to 7K rpm too! Prior to this, I hadn't thought of that. It also keeps me from having to change the rear gear to a 3.31 so I don't run out of gear (6th gear is NOT a option). Thanks Chris! Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 You can change the limiter yourself with your SCT assuming that's what you have. You don't need Jon Lund to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanted2b Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Look at what Shelby did to Code Red and made a 5.4 into the 5.8. I'm sure the 5.8 will accept what ever you want to do to it. Of course they did a lot of stuff to beef up the 5.8. Twin Turbo and 1200 HP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT/SC#0471 Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Yeah, "powdered"...Sintered, in the mfg. process world. My H-D: S&S 89" stroker Evo~ Branch heads & Valves, ThunderHeader, S&S 560 cam, SE 8K ign. module. She screams. The rods are stock, the piston pin (& crown) gets moved. The weak link is the cast pistons! And yes, I scored one taking it to 8K! I figure, pistons are cheap....compared to a rod failure. But the *rods* are holding (no rod bolts, which is typically what breaks, not the *rod*). Phill Sounds killer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 You can change the limiter yourself with your SCT assuming that's what you have. You don't need Jon Lund to do it. No, what I have now is the Pro-Cal with the Ford Racing tune for their Whipple 2.9L SC. I will be buying a SCT that has the same exact FRPP tune in it, but will have the VSL raised to 250 MPH because the Pro-Cal does not allow changes to the tune. It will require me to pull the FRPP tune and save it as the "stock" tune then install the modified FRPP tune that will be loaded into the SCT tuner. I will most likely also get two optional tunes that are compatable with my 2.9L SC with one of them likely being a "Valet Tune" that will limit Vehicle Speed and Engine RPM for those occasions I use Valet. I did not know you could change the engine rev limit at will with a SCT but if I can, I will! Thanks again, Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shel-b001 Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 That's great, but isn't it aluminum? Yeah i know & it weighs more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Yeah i know & it weighs more. Huh? I'm lost here... The "iron block" comment was in reference to the '07-'10 (iron block) engines being field tested and folks *know* what they can withstand. The Aluminum block in the '11 & '12 weighs less than the iron blocks of early years by something like 90 or 100 pounds (120 pounds total INCLUDING the new Electric Power Assisted Steering/EPAS) but there are skeptics that aren't sure how well it will hold up to big HP numbers. So far, no problem. I have no idea what the "new" 5.8L weighs in at but if it's more, I doubt it will be much more. If the bore is a concern to anyone I saw a comment in one article that said the blocks started out as "over engineered" in anticipation of them boring them to a 5.8L displacement so that wouldn't be a worry IN MY MIND. Am I missing something? TIA, Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Phil - request that the tuner who tunes it unlocks all options like tire size, gear changes, speed limiter, rev limiter etc so that you can customize at will when programming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuckInNYForever Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 This isn't very scientific or anything, but they increased size by .4 liters, added 6lbs of boost, and increased the redline by 750 rpms. I would expect (and again, not very scientific) 30-40hp from the displacement increase, around 100hp just from the boost increase, and some more from the higher revving. Seeing how easy it was to add power to the last GT500's, I'd have to imagine there is an easy 100hp or so on the table without risking reliability. I have a feeling that anyone doing the basic tune and pulley upgrades will be seeing 700hp to the wheels. Just my opinion, not based on facts or science, but basic logic. On another note, I am sure we will see the limits on the block soon enough after release when everyone is gunning for 8 second quarter mile times. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I will be buying a SCT that has the same exact FRPP tune in it Phill, is Justin at VMP doing this tune for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Hamilton Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 This isn't very scientific or anything, but they increased size by .4 liters, added 6lbs of boost, and increased the redline by 750 rpms. I would expect (and again, not very scientific) 30-40hp from the displacement increase, around 100hp just from the boost increase, and some more from the higher revving. Seeing how easy it was to add power to the last GT500's, I'd have to imagine there is an easy 100hp or so on the table without risking reliability. I have a feeling that anyone doing the basic tune and pulley upgrades will be seeing 700hp to the wheels. Just my opinion, not based on facts or science, but basic logic. On another note, I am sure we will see the limits on the block soon enough after release when everyone is gunning for 8 second quarter mile times. Thoughts? Can't wait to see what the new one will dyno. The 2011-12's stock usually did about 20 rwhp over the 2010 models even though they were only rated 10 hp higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Phill, is Justin at VMP doing this tune for you? No, it will be a *modified* Ford Racing tune, by Jon Lund, through Revan Racing. And it's not so much a "tune" as it is a tweak to the "stock" Ford Racing tune that comes in the Pro-Cal with the FRPP/Whipple 2.9L supercharger kit. I just want my Vehicle Speed Limiter (VSL) raised so I can (eventually) attempt my goal of 190+ MPH at the Mojave Mile event, while keeping the "50-State Street Legal" tune Ford Racing provides. He can set the VSL to 250 MPH, which obviously I'll never reach but it is above my intended goal of 190+ MPH. But if I can raise my RPM limiter to 7K RPM, that's a bonus (IMO). Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 This isn't very scientific or anything, but they increased size by .4 liters, added 6lbs of boost, and increased the redline by 750 rpms. I would expect (and again, not very scientific) 30-40hp from the displacement increase, around 100hp just from the boost increase, and some more from the higher revving. <SNIP> Thoughts? I was just discussing this very same subject with my SVT dealer on Saturday. Here are my thoughts on the subject: The 2010 GT500 5.4L engine produces 540 HP. That calculates out to 1 hp per cc. If you add .4 liters of displacement (5.4 vs 5.8 = +.4L) and with everything else being equal (compression ratio, boost psi, cam timing, etc.) the 5.8L engine should put out 580HP, FROM THE INCREASE IN DISPLACEMENT ALONE. The FRPP 2.3L TVS (which is a warrantable item) raises the 5.4L engine HP from 540HP to 660HP, a increase of 120HP. My point was, with the increase in displacement (40HP) and the addition of a 2300 series TVS (120HP), the 5.8L engine could potentially be making 700HP (540 + 40 + 120 = 700) with reletive ease, which tells me that they (FoMoCo/SVT) have reduced the amount of boost the 2300 is producing in order to "de-tune" the 5.8L for WARRANTY reasons (Warranty Pay repairs are a HUGE profit killer, vs Customer Pay repairs). Now, having said that...If they simply increased the swept volume of the cylinders from 5.4L to 5.8L, the compression ratio should be higher (due to more volume being compressed into the same size combustion chamber) which will produce more TQ/HP so even 580HP is a conservitive number. Whch tells me they either increased the combustion chamber size (which is VERY likely in order to reduce the chance of detonation) or GREATLY reduced the amount of boost the "new 2300 Series TVS" is making. Most likely, they did a combonation of both. So by my calculation, there is a TON of power being left on the table with a "stock" 2013 GT500 which should be able to be had with a simple pulley change and possibly a remap (i.e. "tune"). If they increased the size of the MAF Sensor housing, it's very likely you won't even need a remap of the look-up graph to get a whole bunch'a HP. And that's not taking into account the higher rev limit of the engine and HP is a product of Torque and RPM, so the more RPM you pull the more (potential) HP you can make. Needless to say, it should be interesting, Phill Pollard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL SHELBY Posted November 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Taking Ford's recent history into account regarding stated HP ratings I would assume that 650 is actually an understatement by Ford. I look forward to hearing about the bone stock dyno runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 If the engine is SAE certified as the rest - they can't "understate" anything. The logic " well the 10 was 540hp and the 11+ was 550hp but it dynoed 20 more so it must be underrated!!" is flawed. The 2011 SVT had different gears and less rotating mass due to the lighter rims. You can't manipulate numbers like that. The only way you can truly compare 2 engines is to dyno them at the same operating temp, same environmental conditions, same day, same dyno, back to back, same drivetrain, same rims, same gears, same gas. Then you still have the dyno margin of error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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