Who Knew the UAW Could Be So Informative?

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Dude - "computer's aren't compatible" = give me a break, It's a blower. The computer has no clue what blower is on the car. It just meters air/fuel and responds as needed. Boost is boost. Want a TVS for your 11+?

http://www.lethalperformance.com/2011-shelby-gt500-supercharger-upgrades-vmp-tuning-tvs-c-8485_8752_10527/vmp-tuning-07-2011-shelby-gt500-tvs-supercharger-upgrade-p-35220

There.

 

 

 

Does it have a EO# (i.e. 50-state legal)?

 

Yeah, that's what I thought.....

 

 

Back at'cha,

Phill

[ChrisSD]

Does it have a EO# (i.e. 50-state legal)?

 

Yeah, that's what I thought.....

 

 

Back at'cha,

Phill

 

 

What does that have to do with the computer?

[2010KonaBlueGT]

What does that have to do with the computer?

 

 

LOL...

 

The "computer" is the Powertrain Control Module, formally known as the ENGINE CONTROL MODULE.

 

If you can't get it to pass smog due to some "incompatability" with the PCM, you can't sell the car in the United States (except for off-road use only).

 

Now I can't say for sure, but I have a pretty strong hunch that that's the reason Shelby won't put the TVS on a SS even though (as you've pointed out) it *can* be made to work with the '11 and later electronics (i.e. FUEL INJECTION).

 

Either that, or Shelby, Ford and Ford Racing are all liars (because *they* are the ones saying the 2.3L TVS is "incompatable" with the '11+ computers).

 

 

Phill

[ChrisSD]

LOL...

 

The "computer" is the Powertrain Control Module, formally known as the ENGINE CONTROL MODULE.

 

If you can't get it to pass smog due to some "incompatability" with the PCM, you can't sell the car in the United States (except for off-road use only).

 

Now I can't say for sure, but I have a pretty strong hunch that that's the reason Shelby won't put the TVS on a SS even though (as you've pointed out) it *can* be made to work with the '11 and later electronics (i.e. FUEL INJECTION).

 

Either that, or Shelby, Ford and Ford Racing are all liars (because *they* are the ones saying the 2.3L TVS is "incompatable" with the '11+ computers).

 

 

Phill

 

 

That isn't the problem at all. Boost is boost. Whether it comes from a KB, the stock blower, turbos, centrifugal blowers - whatever. It doesn't have an EO because no one has paid CARB to test and issue. That's it. The blower isn't an electronic component whatsoever. The computer has no hooks to it. If Justin can tune it, Ford can tune it. They just aren't going that route anymore with that blower. Passing smog has nothing to do with the blower - just the tune. If VMP had the money and inclination - they could pay CARB and get an EO provided the tune was adjusted to meet the standards.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

If Justin can tune it, Ford can tune it.

 

 

Again.... *E*O*#*

 

Just because Justin "tuned it" does not mean it would pass emissions. So *yes*, I agree that "Ford could tune it"...just not to be street legal.

 

You cite time & money as the reason it doesn't have a EO#. It has a EO# for 2010 and earlier cars (from FRPP), why not for 2011 and later cars??? Other aftermarket companies have EO#'s for the 2.3L TVS for 2010 and earler cars, why not for 2011 and later cars?

 

See, your reasoning has no merit to it.

 

And I agree with you that "boost is boost" (to a point) and the computer isn't tied into the SC, at least not directly. But that frequency based MAF sensor IS tied into it (it is upstream of the Supercharger) so INDIRECTLY, it is.

 

 

Phill

[ChrisSD]

Ford could tune it and get an EO. All new calibrations have to be retested and it costs a lot. My reasoning isn't an opinion, it's fact. I bet a VMP tuned 2011 TVS car would go right up on the rollers and pass smog. Doesn't mean it gets an EO - money gets a part an EO.

 

I live in CA dude. I know the EO game inside and out.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

I live in CA dude. I know the EO game inside and out.

 

 

I was born and raised in CA. I just moved to CO in 2006 to take advantage of the real estate market (in both States).

 

I am a certified (now expired) California Smog Mechanic with BAR.

 

I'm also a Certified Calif. Smog Course (CACC) Instructor and as such I worked directly under Wayne Burmett with the Dept. of Consumer Affairs, Bureu of Automotive Repair (BAR) in "Standards and Testing" right along side of the EPA, ARB and CARB so I think "I (probably) know the EO game" just a *tad* bit better than you do.

 

I know *exactly* what it takes for a manufacturer to get a EO exemption. No, they don't just hand them out to Chimps. It is costly but since FRPP already has a EO for the 2.3L TVS for the 2010 getting it for the 2011 would be substantially less intrusive and expensive than if they hadn't had a EO for the same ENGINE FAMILY that they still use in the '11 and newer GT5's. All they would have to do is show the CARB that the 2.3L TVS does not *create* more emissions vs the 2010 model TVS (just like they did to get the EO for the 2010 vs the 2009 MY).

 

Did you see them (FRPP) have to get a new EO for the 2.3L TVS to sell to 2010 owners? NO, you did not. You know why? Because it is the same ENGINE FAMILY. And guess what? The computer system is different in the 2010 than in the 2009 so again, your argument has no merit to it.

 

AND....it wouldn't be for a "one year" vehicle (2011). It would be for a (possibly including the 2010), 2011, 2012 and 2013 (Note: even though the 2013 will be a larger displacement (5.8L vs 5.4L), it is still in the same ENGINE FAMILY).

 

 

Only TIME will tell,

Phill Pollard - BAR CI # 33828

[ChrisSD]

Here is the bottom line: The TVS is not "incompatible" with the 2011 PCM. Period. Ford not making a kit has nothing to do with such things.

 

I don't know how to explain to you in simpler terms that the computer has no clue what brand/technology is feeding the engine boost.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Here is the bottom line: The TVS is not "incompatible" with the 2011 PCM. Period.

Ford not making a kit has nothing to do with such things.

 

 

Okay, since you are stating that as "fact" that means you *know* this to be true. Not that you *think* it to be true, but that you KNOW it.

 

Logic tells me that since you KNOW it, then you KNOW the reason Ford hasn't released the 2.3L TVS for the 2011, 2012 and I *ASSUME* the 2013.

 

I'll be the first to admit that *I* don't KNOW the reason for fact. I only KNOW what Roger stated as fact (which IIRC, he said he was told by Ford).

 

So go ahead and tell me and the rest of the gallery WHY Ford hasn't released the 2.3L TVS for the above named cars...I mean, since you *know* the reason.

 

 

I'm all ears,

Phill Pollard

[ChrisSD]

I don't know why. What I know is there is no such thing as "the computer is incompatible with the TVS".

[svttim]

Im thinking you are argueing to argue. Ford does not offer that blower for a reason. It fits, it can be used so, its not incompatable. It may be not legal and you could argue incompatability for street use for legal reasons

[hourigan218]

Ok so the tvs is is is not compatible, let's make this easy. Why not go with the whipple and make all these problems go away. They can go conservative with a larger pulley. Then we can do with it as we please ( pulley changes, tune, etc.). To our hearts content.

[C-Ray]

Just a bit off topic but thought this was interesting from that same link above.

 

http://mustangsdaily.com/blog/2011/08/27/official-2013-mustang-boss-302-colors-leaked/

 

 

 

Nice car line up. I have two of the three you show in the same color combos (assuming the Wrangler is a Sahara that is). My wife has a new GC Overland with the V8. Really, really, nice vehicle. Jeep got it right with the new redesign.

[ChrisSD]

The TVS is "compatible".

[ChrisSD]

Ford doesn't offer the Kenne Bell or Vortech - are they not compatible? If you think FRPP offers EVERY compatible solution - you havent been around long. They don't. They offer what they want to for their own reasons which are not based on "compatability". Bullshit like this is why TeamShelby will never be recognized as a technical resource like ModularFords. People here have no clue about automotive technology and post random BS that makes no sense and has no merit. It's a blower. The PCM doesn't say " OMG IT'S A TVS!!!! SHUTDOWN!! ". It sees airflow. That's it.

[hourigan218]

Here I hope this kinda clears up the tvs compatability issue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoyE3dikusA&feature=player_detailpage

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Here I hope this kinda clears up the tvs compatability issue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoyE3dikusA&feature=player_detailpage

 

 

 

I'll ask you the same question I had for Chris on Lethal's kit and Justin's kit...Is it STREET LEGAL and does it have a EO#?

 

I've already stated that a TVS can be tuned to run on a '11+. MY point is.....(see above).

 

If they can't make it pass 50-State emission standards (for 2011 and above) then it's useless (i.e. "incompatable") to FRPP and Shelby American.

 

 

Phill

[ChrisSD]

It can be made to pass. No one with the cash has been interested enough to pay. Period. The VMP kit will pass on the rollers. Period. Will VMP pay CARB their asinine fees for the EO? Probably not. FRPP decided not to use this blower for the new cars. Drop it dude - your argument is weak and incorrect. Admit you're wrong and move on. You said "the computer" is incompatible with the TVS which is horseshit. Don't change your story. You don't make "the TVS" pass emissions. It's a freaking air pump. It has nothing to do with anything.

 

You're stuck on this whole "well if Ford doesn't have a kit with the TVS then it must be because it's incompatible and cannot get an EO." I don't know why. Calm down, look at the facts, and be reasonable.

[hourigan218]

Hey KONA-BLUE will the whipple 2.9 pass the CARB? Because if ford does not come out with a TVS then I want to put on WHIPPLE on the 2013. I live in TX so the CARB really doesn't matter. plus i think a nice polished WHIPPLE will look cool as sh$t.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Hey KONA-BLUE will the whipple 2.9 pass the CARB?

 

 

Yes, they (FRPP) offer the Whipple 2.9L SC and/or SC kit for the 2011 & 2012 SVT Mustang (i.e. Shelby) and it does have a Executive Order number/sticker (quote: Unlike our competitors, all Ford Racing Power Upgrade Packages are 50 state emissions legal).

 

http://fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=12300

 

That is for the polished version.

 

 

 

HTH,

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

It can be made to pass. No one with the cash has been interested enough to pay. Period. The VMP kit will pass on the rollers. Period. Will VMP pay CARB their asinine fees for the EO? Probably not. FRPP decided not to use this blower for the new cars. Drop it dude - your argument is weak and incorrect. Admit you're wrong and move on. You said "the computer" is incompatible with the TVS which is horseshit. Don't change your story. You don't make "the TVS" pass emissions. It's a freaking air pump. It has nothing to do with anything.

 

You're stuck on this whole "well if Ford doesn't have a kit with the TVS then it must be because it's incompatible and cannot get an EO." I don't know why. Calm down, look at the facts, and be reasonable.

 

 

 

Chris,

 

I suggest you take your own advice. "Calm down, look at the FACTS, and be reasonable".

 

You state, "it can be made to pass (CARB Standards for 2011)". Says WHO? Says *you*, that's who. Where are your FACTS (that you tell me I should look at)?

 

You also say "no one with cash has been interested enough to pay (for a EO exepmtion). Period".

 

Ford Racing has the cash but yet, for some odd reason they "are not interested enough to pay (for a EO#). So in FACT, they don't offer it for sale even though there is a STRONG market for it (that is a proven FACT).. Hmmm, now why do you think that is? Maybe it's because they don't like making money. Maybe it's because they don't want to make any more money. Hey, maybe it's because they already make enough money. Yes, you're right, it takes money to get a EO number...but they MAKE MONEY by selling the product. Proof is in the FACT that they sell a version for the 2007-2009 and another version for the 2010 (both with a EO#, which took "cash" to get).

 

But for some odd reason, Ford Racing has just decided that they don't want to make any more money by selling the TVS. Yeah, sure, that makes a ton of sense....NOT.

 

It's a FACT that there IS a market for the 2.3L TVS on a 2011 and newer GT500. The aftermarket has proven that FACT. But yet, Ford Racing doesn't want to make any money by selling a EO version of the TVS.......because, WHY???

 

You seem to think you're the expert so YOU tell ME.

 

You say "My argument is weak and incorrect"? Your argument is "I live in CA so I know the EO process inside and out". That sounds a lot like you're saying "I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night so I'm a expert". And *my* arguement is "weak"???

 

I repeated what Roger Sorel stated publicaly on Team Shelby...That the 2.3L TVS is "incompatible with the computer system on the 2011 MY SVT's". I've looked for his post so I could get a 100% accurate quote from him but can not find it so I can't say for sure that my quote is 100% word-for-word so I may be paraphrasing. What does he mean by "incompatible"? I can't speak for Roger so I don't know. I'm speculating by saying it's because they can't get it to pass the CARB standards for 2011 and newer.

 

But my speculation is based on the FACT that Ford Racing and Shelby American don't sell the 2.3L TVS and that leads me to one conclusion. That they can not get a EO# for it. Do I know that for FACT? No, and I've already admitted that.

 

Do YOU know what you state is FACT? No, but you live in California so you're the expert!

 

Again, I suggest you take your own advice and look at the FACTS.

 

 

Phill Pollard

[ChrisSD]

*rolls eyes*

 

Hopeless.

[Whammer]

Well it can be interesting to debate what blower the '13 is getting. But everyone seems to keep focusing on HP numbers for this car. Since seeing the video of the ZL1 on the 'Ring, HP is the least of the '13 GT500's concerns.

If they don't address traction and handling I think the auto mag comparisons of the two cars is going to get ugly very fast.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Well it can be interesting to debate what blower the '13 is getting.

But everyone seems to keep focusing on HP numbers for this car.

Since seeing the video of the ZL1 on the 'Ring, HP is the least of the '13 GT500's concerns.

If they don't address traction and handling I think the auto mag comparisons of the two cars is going to get ugly very fast.

 

 

 

On your first three lines, I can not agree with you more.

 

Fourth line: The guy that said he had some inside info also mentioned that the TRACTION issue is addressed with the 2013. He wouldn't say any more so speculate away! Wider tires? Traction Control? Launch Control?

 

 

Again (like the blower), only TIME will tell,

Phill

[Justin00Stang]

The engine and the computer don't care which supercharger the air comes from, boost is boost. The statement that the computer system is not compatible with XXX blower is nonsense. The statement that you need to have a CARB EO # to pass a plug in OBD2 emissions test or sniffer test commonly required by many states is also false. The level of modification that most individuals and tuners are dealing with on Shelby GT500s will not cause it to fail emissions, as long as the factory emissions systems are retained (catalytic converters and EGR system) along with those systems being left turned on in the tune.

 

That being said, Shelby and FRPP must obtain a CARB EO due to the fact that they operate as new vehicle manufacturers. Shelby and FRPP are held to a much higher standard than an individual who is installing parts on their vehicle after it is purchased.

 

The CARB certification process is very time consuming and expensive. FRPP and Shelby most likely did not see the benefit of offering multiple superchargers, when the take rate was so low on the 07-10 605/650hp warrantied supersnakes.

 

The VMP TVS upgrade will pass a plug in OBD2 or tailpipe sniffer emissions tests just fine, my calibration retains all factory safeguards and emissions controls unless you are using the vehicle in a race only off-road environment and request otherwise.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

The VMP TVS upgrade will pass a plug in OBD2 or tailpipe sniffer emissions tests just fine, my calibration retains all factory safeguards and emissions controls unless you are using the vehicle in a race only off-road environment and request otherwise.

 

 

 

Justin,

 

Thank you for jumping in here and injecting some facts into this debate.

 

Unfortunately as to your statement I quoted above, the "plug in OBDII and tailpipe sample" test won't get the 2.3L TVS past the VISUAL INSPECTION portion of a smog test and you would most certainly require a EO# to pass a smog test in CA. The instant a Smog Tech sees the supercharger, s/he is required to look for a EO sticker and if s/he can't find one there is a list of EO accepted aftermarket parts (available from BAR) that lists all aftermarket parts that have the Executive Order exemption and number.

 

 

Phill Pollard

[supersnake94]

The engine and the computer don't care which supercharger the air comes from, boost is boost. The statement that the computer system is not compatible with XXX blower is nonsense. The statement that you need to have a CARB EO # to pass a plug in OBD2 emissions test or sniffer test commonly required by many states is also false. The level of modification that most individuals and tuners are dealing with on Shelby GT500s will not cause it to fail emissions, as long as the factory emissions systems are retained (catalytic converters and EGR system) along with those systems being left turned on in the tune.

 

That being said, Shelby and FRPP must obtain a CARB EO due to the fact that they operate as new vehicle manufacturers. Shelby and FRPP are held to a much higher standard than an individual who is installing parts on their vehicle after it is purchased.

 

The CARB certification process is very time consuming and expensive. FRPP and Shelby most likely did not see the benefit of offering multiple superchargers, when the take rate was so low on the 07-10 605/650hp warrantied supersnakes.

 

The VMP TVS upgrade will pass a plug in OBD2 or tailpipe sniffer emissions tests just fine, my calibration retains all factory safeguards and emissions controls unless you are using the vehicle in a race only off-road environment and request otherwise.

 

Does that mean I could buy a 2012, get the TVS, ARH Headers with high flow cats, Borla ATAK cat back, cams and still pass emissions?

[supersnake94]

Justin,

 

Thank you for jumping in here and injecting some facts into this debate.

 

Unfortunately as to your statement I quoted above, the "plug in OBDII and tailpipe sample" test won't get the 2.3L TVS past the VISUAL INSPECTION portion of a smog test and you would most certainly require a EO# to pass a smog test in CA. The instant a Smog Tech sees the supercharger, s/he is required to look for a EO sticker and if s/he can't find one there is a list of EO accepted aftermarket parts (available from BAR) that lists all aftermarket parts that have the Executive Order exemption and number.

 

 

Phill Pollard

 

Why don't you just ask Tasca if the TVS cars is 50 state? Also don't you have, white SS stripes, black alcoa wheels and Shelby PROPITARTY grind cam specs to complain about?

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Does that mean I could buy a 2012, get the TVS, ARH Headers with high flow cats, Borla ATAK cat back, cams and still pass emissions?

 

 

It depends what State you are in (and in CA, which county you are in).

 

In CA there are three portions of a Smog Check:

 

1). Visiual Inspection

2). Functional Inspection

3). Tailpipe Sample

 

Fail ANY one of those three and you don't get a Smog Cert (and can't register your car).

 

 

Phill Pollard

[supersnake94]

It depends what State you are in (and in CA, which county you are in).

 

In CA there are three portions of a Smog Check:

 

1). Visiual Inspection

2). Functional Inspection

3). Tailpipe Sample

 

Fail ANY one of those three and you don't get a Smog Cert (and can't register your car).

 

 

Phill Pollard

 

Well I know that. I'm from NY so if it fails in Cali, I think I will be okay in NY.

 

Unless you are one of those people who know a guy who can get the car passed for you...