shelbymotorsports Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Dave c found this interesting auction. I'm not sure how cool it is that the state of Ohio approves the removing of the Shelby VIN and placing it on a donor car though. The seller is being honest about it but it just seems to me that the SGT VIN should not have been allowed to be placed onto another Mustang body. Steve http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2007-Ford-Mustang-Shelby-GT-/120723129271?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1c1ba8c3b7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT/SC#0471 Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobradad Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 If Ohio does the re-issuing of VIN tags I wonder what is the policy in other states. It is a good thing that the tag says re-issued so that an owner cannot claim the car to be an original even if he wanted to. Almost this same discussion was being made about clones being created with aftermarket parts on another forum site. How does the registry handle this? I'd assume you would make a note and say the car is basically gone? All things aside, I do like the hood though. It reminds me of the '68 GT350 and GT500 hoods. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 If Texas was as lenient on how much of the car must be in tact for the VIN to be transfered, Unique Performance would have never been taken down. I'm not really sure how I feel about this. As long as nobody is trying to pass this off as a genuine complete Shelby as original, then..... Same as using a dynacorn body to redue an old rusty Mustang. How far is too far? How much of the car should not be able to be replaced. Where's the hart and sole of the car? Is it the fire wall and drivetrain? I'm not sure that this issue will ever end. As long as we have this history in the registry, I guess that's the most important thing. There will always be some cases of a car being rebuilt without anybody ever knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobradad Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Ah, yes, Unique Performance. They were the ones that got tagged for swapping tags among other issues. I heard horror stories about people loosing tens of thousands of dollars for cars that never got built. Caveat emptor, (let the buyer beware). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Ah, yes, Unique Performance. They were the ones that got tagged for swapping tags among other issues. I heard horror stories about people loosing tens of thousands of dollars for cars that never got built. Caveat emptor, (let the buyer beware). Not to change the subject, but this is the same subject matter. Yep, same exact type of deal is why they were taken down, other reasons also, but this is the main thing that they were accused of. I honestly think that they were screwed. I was at the auction for all the cars that they were in the middle of building. Many of the cars that they were accused of not even begining were just about done. Sorry, not to beat a dead horse as this has been discussed many a time. :beatdeadhorse: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL SHELBY Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 This is an interesting discussion/legal dilemma. Just how much, and what parts constitute the whole of the car? Does replacing the main body shell mean that a car is no longer the same car? Is a vin assigned to the car as a whole, or is it assigned to the main body shell? I've seen arguments that that when greater the x% of a car is replaced it should no longer retain its original vin. The problem there is how do you measure the percentage? By the number of individual parts? By the parts dimensions/weight/mass, etc.? I believe the solution being worked in Oklahoma as a result of the Classic Creations case is that an entirely new/original state issued vin will be used when a body shell is replaced. In this case, will Shelby America, and the Shelby Registry honor the Ohio State reissued vin? Would Shelby be able to legally reject or not acknowledge the re-issued vin? From a States perspective, would another state recognize/accept the Ohio State reissued vin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 The thing that I really appreciate about this seller is how very honest he is being with everything done to the car with pictures. Also, he didn't try to re-create it as an exact to origianl and took it custom. I e-mailed him and the mileage is correct to the Shelby which the the auto report verifies that should be accurate. Seems to me that this could be a very nice car for somebody. It's known to be a salvage wrecked Shelby with previous totalled history, so I'm thinking all is good in my book if the price is right. But that's just my opinion. Again the big question is what constitues how much of a car can be replaced and make it not that car anymore? Here in Colorado, it would be the same as Oklahoma you state above, where the state may issue a completely new State VIN based on the nature of what was rebuilt. Yep interesting conversation........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobradad Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 Wow, the price has gone up 1K since this morning. I wonder what his reserve price is and if he will get it. Guess we need to stay tuned. CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbymotorsports Posted May 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 The thing that I really appreciate about this seller is how very honest he is being with everything done to the car with pictures. Also, he didn't try to re-create it as an exact to origianl and took it custom. I e-mailed him and the mileage is correct to the Shelby which the the auto report verifies that should be accurate. Seems to me that this could be a very nice car for somebody. It's known to be a salvage wrecked Shelby with previous totalled history, so I'm thinking all is good in my book if the price is right. But that's just my opinion. Again the big question is what constitues how much of a car can be replaced and make it not that car anymore? Here in Colorado, it would be the same as Oklahoma you state above, where the state may issue a completely new State VIN based on the nature of what was rebuilt. Yep interesting conversation........ Same in California. The car would have been issued a completely new state issued VIN number to avoid any confusion down the road. I'm just disappointed that the state of Ohio would take the VIN number off of a car that was a total loss and put it on another car. Heck we don't even know if this new Mustang is even the same year as the Shelby. The Shelby VIN should have been discarded with the Shelby GT body. This new recreation SGT did not come down Ford's assembly line with the upfitters package nor was this recreation SGT shipped to SAI for conversion into a SGT so why should this recreation be allowed to wear a Shelby VIN number? In my opinion swapping a few Shelby parts in an Ohio garage does not turn a Mustang into a Shelby GT. The problem is not with the seller but with the Ohio BMV. I too would be interested in the reserve or the selling price as this was quite the gamble when you consider the amount of work involved. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobradad Posted May 20, 2011 Report Share Posted May 20, 2011 The bid is up another $1000.00 at $8600.00 as of 5PM PST. Reserve not met, yet... One major red flag, at least for me, even if the reserve was met right now: "The driver's seat airbag has been deployed and removed with the seat re-sewn." Looking at the damage to the original car, what about the other air bags? Did they deploy and were replaced?, did they not work? What?? It is hard to believe that only the one airbag went off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07-2937 Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 I believe that its gone and no longer a SGT we diddnt build it touch it and it was never a 54u package therefore it is now a clone!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL SHELBY Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Well, it sounds like you two subscribe to the thought that the vin and body shell are one. I'm not saying you are wrong but humor me for a moment. If I was to replace every concievable part on an SGT (or any Shelby for that matter) including the roof panel and rear quarters with the exception of the main body shell, would you still considerate it a Shelby? Where do you draw the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socalwrench Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 I think that's the big unknown concerning this issue. At what point, it is no longer the original car. I would have to agree with the chassis, a unibody in this came, would be the core piece of the car. Everything gets attached to the core chassis. At least the seller is honest, and at least he tried to save a Shelby. It's a replica or tribute in my book. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobradad Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 I would think that that scenario would be different in that you are just replacing body panels back onto the original frame vs. having 2 separate cars being kludged together. In the above case, while the headline reads 2007 Shelby GT it is still a clone since it mentions that the original body was totaled. (I assume the donor body was used?) I would think the tags should stay with the body of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Steve, While I'm in complete agreement with you. The question still is tough to answer. What is that point where, what part of the body can be replaced and still be the original car? If a Shelby GT get's t-boned in the drivers side but is considered repairable to insurance by replacing the entire jamb assembly, drivers side floor pan, door structure, dash, etc. VIN dash plate assembly needs replaced along with the door VIN plate. Is it still a Shelby? That is the tough question. Where is the line drawn? I'm guessing different people would draw that line somewhere else? Not trying to be argumentative in any way, just raising the question. So the body tub is one part number in the Ford part book (or can be). It's the same number weather or not a v-6 car, v8 car no matter the options. Let's say that every single other bolt on piece comes from the original car. Is that ok? Yep interesting questions for sure..... I just have quite a few friends in restoration and body shops. It's really interesting how far some of these cars go while still being the original VIN. There's a brand new F-150 Raptor on a local Ford lot here that the shipping company did not properly tie the truck down and ripped the frame. They had to totally disassemble the truck and replace the frame. Of course they have to disclose this to the purchaser, but it is considered as brand new truck with no damage at all, which there's really none. They replaced the damaged part in its entirety. Is this ok? I would almost look at this in the same light. P.S. you can see in the one picture of the door jamb on this auction that the tub is from a 2005 V-6 car. Cobradad, This is very normal with modern airbags. By the damage to this car, it looks like initial impact was to the drivers side. It is very possible that only the one bag tripped. Some of these sensors are very interesting in what it takes to trip them. Being a firefighter for over 20 years, I've seen many accidents where you would certainly think the front airbags should have deployed but did not. They are all controlled separately on most modern cars. Good discussion. Edit: Nice! three other responses above this one while I was typing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socalwrench Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 In reference to the Raptor rebuild, at least it was done by a Ford dealership. I would compare that to SAI rebuilding the SGT. It they went through all the work, then it could still be a Shelby for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 In reference to the Raptor rebuild, at least it was done by a Ford dealership. I would compare that to SAI rebuilding the SGT. It they went through all the work, then it could still be a Shelby for sure. Interesting. So you're saying that it depends on who turns the wrench, socalwrench? Sorry for the pun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socalwrench Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Basically yes. It matters to me anyway. Think of it this way- it's SAI who turned the Mustang GT in to a Shelby GT in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWEDEMAN Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Well it is documented, that is the end of the registry story right there. Hey speaking of the registry.......................what ever happened to it? I think that thing is left for dead and might not ever be back. I know they have Roger working on many other things, like selling most all their cars, rather than working on the registry. That is what this is all about the registry that IS the brand. Anyone look into the newest regiostry or is it still off limits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave870 Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Dave c found this interesting auction. I'm not sure how cool it is that the state of Ohio approves the removing of the Shelby VIN and placing it on a donor car though. The seller is being honest about it but it just seems to me that the SGT VIN should not have been allowed to be placed onto another Mustang body. Steve http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2007-Ford-Mustang-Shelby-GT-/120723129271?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item1c1ba8c3b7 Iam going to be sic as if there is not enough clones .SHAME ON YOU OHIO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT/SC#0471 Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 My two cents... If all they have is a welded on right frane rail from the original then it should be relabeled with another vin as it now has "Shelby Parts" having the csm and correct vin only makes it easier to disguise down the road...of course it will be noted at SA but what if a future buyer never checks...look for the story in the legal files colum in Sports Car Market in 2050. At least the seller is honest, I would not touch this car with a 10 foot pole however when a no issues SGT is 25-30k . Also giving me pause is why not put the airbag back in tge seat...so what other shortcuts were taken? Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socalwrench Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 I don't think you can repack the airbag in the seat. The airbag is a one time use item. I would've bought a whole new seat. Even the integrity of the seat structure comes into question after a big wreck like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT/SC#0471 Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 I don't think you can repack the airbag in the seat. The airbag is a one time use item. I would've bought a whole new seat. Even the integrity of the seat structure comes into question after a big wreck like that. Yeah I am with you this is not cool for whoever buys this car IMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushmaster Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Reminds me of the old story about the guy who has a hammer for 20 years - he's replaced the head three times and the handle five times. Like someone said earlier, caveat emptor - it's not a Shelby GT to me, and though I can't specifically say why I feel that way, I'd start drawing the line at the firewall. If it's the same firewall, I can start thinking about it being the same car. If it's a new firewall (= new body = different car) I'd have a very hard time calling it a Shelby. But if he's honest about what he's done, and the State is OK with it, and he finds a buyer who wants the thing and goes in with his or her eyes open, it won't cost me any sleep. The problem with these recreations or clones is when the car is sold to a second or third owner and somewhere along the way someone "forgets" to mention the car's history. He seems to have jumped through the necessary hoops to safeguard future potential buyers of a situation like that. That original car was pretty toasted, but I have to wonder if it would have been a better idea to fix it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socalwrench Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 You know, I got to thinking about this. Wouldn't it be easier to just add another letter onto the VIN? This way it keeps the original number in case you needed to track down the old car and get's an additional letter making it the new rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT-C0056 Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 Cars are much harder to fake today, than in the 60's. the vin is stamped or sticker everyehre, I look at it as if it left SA with aCSM that is matched ti a vin, then that is a Shelby, once a vin has been altered or reissued, its no shelby. i cant grab a 66 fastback and transfer a CSM from a wrecked shelby and still call it a shelby. the vin matches the csm. Now this is not the case, they moved the frame rail, so if you were to do a good job, you could hide it. I dont know how you would be able to know the difference. I have seen some people with 70 fastbacks, that have purchased titles for mach 1 or boss and just transfer the vin tag in the windshield, bassicaly a donor body is found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalSGT Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 If it walks like a pig, and oinks like a pig, ...it's no longer a DUCK! Just sayin'..... John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobradad Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 I don't know if anyone has been keeping track. The starting price was $5000.00. After 8 bids the price is now $13,600 and the reserve is still not met. 1 day 7 hours to go.... I was guessing the reserve was $10,000. Any votes for $15,000???? CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT/SC#0471 Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 my bet is his reserve is 20k. Guy has to have some serious time in this project not to mention money. Even if he owned a shop... I say 20. Fun to watch though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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