SGT/SC#0471 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I don't feel like cleaning up after an explosion at redline on the track, first of all. Then I'm left with a block that can't be re-used at the very least.Running it till it blows is not a good answer, IMO. I feel lucky to have caught this before anymore damage was done. What was left undone by Ford will be finished here shortly. Ken EDIT: The only part of the oiling diagram I'd be interested in is the oil pan. When running a magnet through the bottom of the brand new drain oil pan I used for this oil change, I collect enough metal particles to fill the end of the sizable magnet. 1/2 of a cam lobe isn't going to disappear into the filter, however much I wish it would. Like I said track down the Chunks..drop the pan and clean it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 And I would add that a forged bottom end would not have helped this like Dave C said but you could add boost then... Ok enough internet hero...sorry Ken I know you will get it you are a good wrench... Respect and I will send a good wrench vibe to ya if I can...Cheers!-R Dave is right and actually reiterating the same comment that I made yesterday. I'm glad that I didn't have a forged bottom end installed at this point for obvious reasons. I'm not saying forged internals have anything to do with this failure. The rocker arm failed. The cam ate itself. The lash adjuster broke. That's it. But while I'm knee deep as it is, it only makes sense to upgrade the rest of this thing. I was breaking 500 RWHP on the stock bottom end as it was. It wasn't like I wasn't asking for trouble. I just assumed that it would have come from downstairs first. Oh well and so it goes. Stay tuned.. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT/SC#0471 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/05-06-07-08...=item3a54168dd9 1900 bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkGT500nCA Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I'd get a complete set of Fox lake racing heads. Or find yourself a used GT500 motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I'd get a complete set of Fox lake racing heads. Or find yourself a used GT500 motor. Heads are top priority. That heavy iron Cobra motor is not, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkGT500nCA Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I wish I lived closed Ken, I'd give you a hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I wish I lived closed Ken, I'd give you a hand. I wish you did too Brian! So far though it's pretty easy. I've never had to hoist a new engine like this out of a car, however. I'm sure I'll run into all sorts of sources of irritation along the way. I've already got one actually. I'll get a photo up shortly to see if anyone knows what to do with it. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greaser Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 if you have a lift ken out the bottom is the easiest way to pull the motor just drop the whole front end. ps do you plan on upgrading the super charger now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkGT500nCA Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Yeah, the only way I've seen an S197 engine brought out was from under. Loosen the struts, engine mounts, cross member, and driveshaft, and lift the car off. Ken is doing it the MAN's way. On jack stands in the garage! HELL YEAH!!! It shouldn't be too hard. Ken I'm sure you already have THESE workshop manuals but I thought I'd throw them out again. Do they even make a Chiltons or a haines manual for these cars yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 You guys are definitely right about having to drop the engine out of the bottom, as opposed to hoisting it. It makes a whole ton more sense. I'm working with jackstands, which will make this a lot more tricky. It looks like I'll need to hoist from the top before dropping the K-member out, then finally get to the mounts, exhaust, bellhousing, etc. The going rate for simple removal of the engine is around $1k and I'd rather use that money for the actual build. We'll see how it goes. Here's one thing I'm not getting. This rigid hose into the coolant bypass in front of where the intake was is not budging. Is there a tool required for this thing or am I missing something? Aside from that, I pulled the battery out so that I could get to the passenger cam cover. I inspected the valvetrain on that side of the engine and everything looks fine. Some pretty heavy cleaning will be next on the agenda, along with dropping the entire exhaust. Thanks again for all the input guys. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Recent pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500-07 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 I went with option #3, from what I've read and have been told by people who build these motors for a living is that the stock block is good to 900 or better. Another plus that comes with using your block and heads is that you will be able to know for sure exactly what parts were used and in my case be able to watch it going together. Livernois and several others use a production block for their 1000hp shortblocks. Maybe upgrade the side bolts,but I'm not worried at all about my block holding up. http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product.phtml?p=1550 +1, also keep an eye on your CR when building your new engine. FR offers CNC heads which aren't bad for the $$. if your staying with the Paxton SC you may want to consider the new FR intake coming out in March. good luck Ken, you have plenty of options to chose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 +1, also keep an eye on your CR when building your new engine. FR offers CNC heads which aren't bad for the $$. if your staying with the Paxton SC you may want to consider the new FR intake coming out in March. good luck Ken, you have plenty of options to chose from. Thanks man. That FRPP intake would be really nice for sure. I'll also look into the heads you're talking about. All of the other heads I'm finding are awfully pricey. On a related note, AED told me that they highly recommend no matter what build I go with that I should stay with stock cams/rockers and just upgrade the springs. They say that's the only way to avoid this happening again in the future. Any opinion on that? Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500-07 Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Thanks man. That FRPP intake would be really nice for sure. I'll also look into the heads you're talking about. All of the other heads I'm finding are awfully pricey.On a related note, AED told me that they highly recommend no matter what build I go with that I should stay with stock cams/rockers and just upgrade the springs. They say that's the only way to avoid this happening again in the future. Any opinion on that? Ken I agree with AED unless you are building a complete race engine. FR link to 3V heads http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...rtKeyField=9447 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greaser Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I agree with AED unless you are building a complete race engine.FR link to 3V heads http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...rtKeyField=9447 not what i want to hear guys if this is true it kills my NA dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 not what i want to hear guys if this is true it kills my NA dreams. Sorry man. I had a heavy set of Comp springs and apparently it wasn't enough. Everyone I'm talking to on the phone about this is telling me that there just isn't a spring built for the 3V yet that's strong enough to withstand these stage 2 or 3 cams on the market. However, running NA with those cams/springs/retainers ought to take less of a toll than running them under boost. On a side note, all of the shops I'm talking to are saying that our production block is performing as well as the infamous Teskid block. Very reassuring news to me, as I'd like to reuse my block. Ken EDIT: I'm strongly considering shipping my block to MMR, so that they can install their stroker kit into it. Livernois is currently a close runner up for the rotating assembly and heads at the moment. I'll keep you all posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Rodgers Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Sorry to read about all your problems.......... I give you a lot of credit, I would not attempt to do all that work your doing. Good luck, I can't wait to see where you go with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I agree with AED unless you are building a complete race engine.FR link to 3V heads http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...rtKeyField=9447 MMR has given me a quote of $1500 to port and polish my existing heads, so I think I may go that route. However, I'll need to crank up the boost apparently, because having them run so much more efficiently will inevitably drop the boost pressure. If the heads don't check out for whatever reason, I'll either go with the MMR stage 2 heads or the Livernois stage 2 heads, only because of the performance gains they offer for a competitive price over the FR heads. Also, I've been told that shipping my block to them would not be cost effective. Paying for freight, inspection, and machining would cost as much as upgrading their stroker short block from the Cobra iron block to a new production Al block. So I guess the short block from them makes the most sense and that'll leave me with my original engine to keep or sell. Another reason this is a good option is because there are very few shops around here that are experienced with the modular motors. So buying a stroker kit from anywhere then finding a local shop to assemble it would be difficult and nearly as expensive. The only other upgrades I'm considering are ARP head studs and main studs and the MMR street/racing oil pump. Does anyone else have any other suggestions for things I may be overlooking? Ken EDIT: ^ Thanks carnut. This is nothing I intended on having to even think about for a long time. But now that I'm here, I'm going to try to have some fun with it and end up with a build worthy of the road course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmn444 Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm guessing you will do this regardless, but it would be nice to see a parts list of what you did at the end of this rebuild and HOPEFULLY some dyno results before and after you put the blower back on too, i'd really like to see what the mmr stuff can do N/A and blown, looks like some good deals on their site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckySnake Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Hello Ken, easy for me to say but I would try and save your original motor. Replace just whats broke and change the oil after a hundred or so miles. Could save yourself alot of money. Wear that stocker out first. Worst case is having to put a little extra work into it. Good Luck. Blayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 ^ This solution is a valid one, but only if I don't intend on modifying my engine any further. I would be taking a step back in power, because my stock cams would go back in. I would gain nothing. It would simply be a repair and a costly one. My point of view on this is that if I'm going to be investing the money in taking the engine out for a full tear down and inspection, along with the valvetrain work that would be required, I'd much rather gain something than lose it in the end. I have 3 options: -Leave the engine in, repair the valvetrain failures, install original cams, flush with oil, pray for the best -Pull the engine, tear it down, complete a full inspection, replace bearings for good measure, repair valvetrain, install original cams, re-install engine -Pull the engine, chock it up to 40k miles of a hell of a lot of fun, re-install the baddest most bulletproof setup I can find, without making the same mistakes I made in the past I'm favoring option #3 at the moment. Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. Ken EDIT: On a related note, I won't be able to drop this engine in my garage. The work from here is far too extensive without a lift. NorCal Motorsports in Sac will drop the K-member/front suspension/exhaust/transmission/engine this week, then put the front end back together so that the car is transportable. From there, I can bring the engine to work and tear it apart, in order to make a final decision on which path I take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL SHELBY Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Ok guys, who had 40k miles in the "When will Ken toast his motor" pool? Man, I had you down for 80k as I had faith in you but some of these other guys were certain you wouldn't make it past 30k! :tease: Good Luck with build my man! We are all looking forward to the results. J- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 ^ Yeah just a matter of time I suppose. It certainly went quicker than I ever imagined it would! On a related note, I just spoke with Comp about the failure. They've issued an RMA for me to send the cam to them for inspection. The guy on the phone mentioned that he had personally never heard of this happening on another 3V, but he says that there's still a possibility that the cam was the source of this failure. Rick at MMR had this to say about it: "How long ago did they do this setup? We've learned a lot within the last 4 months so if it was longer than that we have new information. There was a point where there were 3 valve failures all over the country. Send me the cam and I'll have Comp fix/replace it. It wont cost an arm and a leg, maybe $200. Get me the part numbers for both the cams and springs and we'll get to the bottom of it for you." Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500-07 Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 this might interest you Ken, http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146745 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 this might interest you Ken,http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146745 Wow. That's exactly what happened to me. It's especially interesting to me because this guy lives in the same town I do. I'm going to try to contact him via that forum. Thanks a lot for the heads up. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500-07 Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 here's another on the Aluminator and CR http://s197.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23788 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT500-07 Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 3v build take note of the CR and SC http://s197.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23656 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahmann Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Here's a bad rap against Livernois. Whether it's legit, I don't know. But an interesting read anyway: http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146431 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL SHELBY Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 ^ Yeah just a matter of time I suppose. It certainly went quicker than I ever imagined it would! On a related note, I just spoke with Comp about the failure. They've issued an RMA for me to send the cam to them for inspection. The guy on the phone mentioned that he had personally never heard of this happening on another 3V, but he says that there's still a possibility that the cam was the source of this failure. Rick at MMR had this to say about it: "How long ago did they do this setup? We've learned a lot within the last 4 months so if it was longer than that we have new information. There was a point where there were 3 valve failures all over the country. Send me the cam and I'll have Comp fix/replace it. It wont cost an arm and a leg, maybe $200. Get me the part numbers for both the cams and springs and we'll get to the bottom of it for you." Ken Good to hear that both Comp and MMR want to work with you to find out what went wrong. I cannot imagine your setup (combination of parts) or how you use your SGT would have caused this. There are guys with far wilder set-ups that have not had any issues. I would bet it was a bad rocker/cam or the like, and the failure would have occured on a stock motor, all be it further down the road. I had a 3L Ranger years ago that broke a valve spring at 40k miles. Who breaks a valve sping on a 3L Ranger? The valve spring was bad when the motor was assembled at the factory; it was a freak issue. My guess is you have the same kind of thing here. Don't sweat it, it will all go back together better then new. J- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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