Our Shelby is in the hospital.

[2007_Shelby_GT]

Hope that the issue is now resolved! Some good suggestions/solutions from everyone!

 

Sam

 

AKA:

[James Hill]

I am making an appointment tomorrow for the plugs to be changed. I am just really pissed that Ford says they won't pay for them. Its a new car, with 10200 miles on it. If Ford says that they are 100000 mile plugs, they should pay. I'm going to complain, not that it will help.

[68fastback]

It's not uncommon for certain octane boosters to turn plugs red-brown but that color is not *necessarily* the cause of the problem. Many GT500s pushing 750-800rw run Torco and other racing octane booster in every tank (out of necessity or as a safety) with no problems. Yet it's hard to argue with the results of your changing the plugs and that fixing the problem. Possibly (dunno) the heat range of the plugs is interacting with the octane booster because it alters the burn rate differently than higher octane fuel does -- this is also true of race gas (diff burn rate). In fact, race gas routinely turns plugs red-brown. I don't know much about 104+ octane boost except that you need alot of it to make much octane difference. When they talk about how many "points" it improves octane on the label, they're talking about *tenths* ('points') of octane, i.e. 10 points is an improvement from 91 to 92 -- very misleading. I guess my point is that there's nothing wrong with octane booster and it's used widely and regularly by many with no problem so I'm thinking there's some other interaction (burn rate or plug heat range match or O2 sensor transition detection problem or ???) going on that's not apparent.

[SGT4265]

I am making an appointment tomorrow for the plugs to be changed. I am just really pissed that Ford says they won't pay for them. Its a new car, with 10200 miles on it. If Ford says that they are 100000 mile plugs, they should pay. I'm going to complain, not that it will help.

 

 

Did Ford give you a reason why they wouldnt cover the plugs?

[James Hill]

Did Ford give you a reason why they wouldnt cover the plugs?

 

 

I am going to get into that in the morning. I only briefly went over it with them before. I will post tomorrow with the reason.

[SkyDancer]

It's not uncommon for certain octane boosters to turn plugs red-brown but that color is not *necessarily* the cause of the problem. Many GT500s pushing 750-800rw run Torco and other racing octane booster in every tank (out of necessity or as a safety) with no problems. Yet it's hard to argue with the results of your changing the plugs and that fixing the problem. Possibly (dunno) the heat range of the plugs is interacting with the octane booster because it alters the burn rate differently than higher octane fuel does -- this is also true of race gas (diff burn rate). In fact, race gas routinely turns plugs red-brown. I don't know much about 104+ octane boost except that you need alot of it to make much octane difference. When they talk about how many "points" it improves octane on the label, they're talking about *tenths* ('points') of octane, i.e. 10 points is an improvement from 91 to 92 -- very misleading. I guess my point is that there's nothing wrong with octane booster and it's used widely and regularly by many with no problem so I'm thinking there's some other interaction (burn rate or plug heat range match or O2 sensor transition detection problem or ???) going on that's not apparent.

 

 

Dude...Who really cares if there is some kind of plug mismatch or O2 detection problem??? Screw the "in theory" BS as its the reality of the situation that has to be contended with and there is a lot at stake with the engine and pocket book and all. There is absolutely no arguing about it as three cars experienced the exact same issues as a result of the exact same action of adding octane boost to the gas. And one of those cars was a blown car (an 03 Cobra) which one would think could handle the increase in octane easily.

 

Short and sweet, plain and simple the octane boost was the direct cause to fouling the plugs so what is the sense of using octane boost in an application that doesn't really serve to gain anything by adding it, particularly so for a N/A GT???? It seems awfully rediculous to add any octane boost once a person finds out that it can be a crap shoot.....DUH???

[kaiserkreb]

Short and sweet, plain and simple the octane boost was the direct cause to fouling the plugs so what is the sense of using octane boost in an application that doesn't really serve to gain anything by adding it, particularly so for a N/A GT???? It seems awfully rediculous to add any octane boost once a person finds out that it can be a crap shoot.....DUH???

 

 

Well, the way I understand it from talking to my mechanic, it's because when your timing and whatever else is set to be run on a higher octane fuel (which ours ARE) and you don't use the premium, you get less than optimal detonation of the fuel, which if it happens too early or too late can cause far greater amounts of engine damage in the long run. I believe this is where they throw in the term "knocking" as well.

 

 

<------ Not a mechanic, but I understand physics. lol

[James Hill]

Well, the Shelby is at the dealer for the plug change. They told me that Ford did not ok it for warranty coverage yet. I would think that they want to see the plugs first. I asked if I could have them, the old plugs, when I came back. I can only have them if Ford does not pay. But if the plug swap does not fix the issue, I am not sure what they will want to do next.

 

I will find out in a few hours. The are going to run a full system check agian using the IDS.

[68fastback]

Dude...Who really cares if there is some kind of plug mismatch or O2 detection problem??? Screw the "in theory" BS as its the reality of the situation that has to be contended with and there is a lot at stake with the engine and pocket book and all. There is absolutely no arguing about it as three cars experienced the exact same issues as a result of the exact same action of adding octane boost to the gas. And one of those cars was a blown car (an 03 Cobra) which one would think could handle the increase in octane easily.

 

Short and sweet, plain and simple the octane boost was the direct cause to fouling the plugs so what is the sense of using octane boost in an application that doesn't really serve to gain anything by adding it, particularly so for a N/A GT???? It seems awfully rediculous to add any octane boost once a person finds out that it can be a crap shoot.....DUH???

 

Dude... He said in post #1 it's an SGT (premium fuel recommnded) so he added octane booster to make up the difference. I never said he *should* use octane booster (especially 104+ which doesn't do much) but he used it and is having a problem.

 

Btw, you don't know that the octane boost "was the direct cause to fouling the plugs" since the tune is the major determinant of how rich the engine will run and, yes, SGTs are tuned rich. Still, the SGT tune is designed to run 91-93 octane and the amount of booster he added was very little octane-wise.

 

So it's likely a combo of reasons. Maybe 104+ booster is crap (which is not unlikely -lol), maybe the overly-rich tune with it's timing and fuel curves is not a goo dmatch for how the booster is affecting burn rate.

 

Yes, the simple answer is that if your finger hurts when you pick your nose then just don't pick your nose -- no prob. But, once picked, folks might choose to wonder why it hurts and discuss that. So, don't use booster/104+. But it is still interesting to some (myself included) why it's having this effect and it certainly isn't just because of a few points higher octane, else the car would also barf on 93 octane ...which it doesn't ...that's what we were talking on.

[ARMORINE]

Well, the way I understand it from talking to my mechanic, it's because when your timing and whatever else is set to be run on a higher octane fuel (which ours ARE) and you don't use the premium, you get less than optimal detonation of the fuel, which if it happens too early or too late can cause far greater amounts of engine damage in the long run. I believe this is where they throw in the term "knocking" as well.

 

 

<------ Not a mechanic, but I understand physics. lol

 

 

im a mechanic, your issues detonation that does it, detonation occurs when the fuel is compressed beyond its flash point, when that occurs it explodes VIOLENTLY, instead of a flame front moving at lets say 400 feet per minute(thats not the exact number but im not looking it up right now) the flame front moves at lets say 600-800 feet per minute. thats the difference between hitting the piston with a carpenters hammer and a sledge hammer. things WILL break, our engines are overbuilt but eventually that kind of punishment will take its toll.

 

knockings just detonation theyr one in the same.

 

ps.s if there are discrepancy's in my statement i apologize, im not feeling well right now so making a coherent statement is kinda hard

 

 

 

 

EDIT: i just read the fuel booster part and i do apologize for missing that, DO NOT use fuel booster with your SGT, it can burn out your catalytic converters. on the other hand if you don't have cats then no problem

[ilmor]

This is a very informative thread!

 

Maybe there should be a "Watch Outs" section on the forum. Threads such as this should be moved to it and perhaps be given pertinent titles like "Avoid Octane Boosters!"

[James Hill]

I have learned much since the SGT started having problems. This site has alot of great information.

 

No word yet from the dealer. The car has been there all day. Could be good, could be bad.

[ARMORINE]

I have learned much since the SGT started having problems. This site has alot of great information.

 

No word yet from the dealer. The car has been there all day. Could be good, could be bad.

 

i hate to say it but it may be there for a long time, one of my friends has a roush stage three he ran octane booster through. it took them 4 weeks to figure out it had burned the cats. then they had to fight with roush over getting the parts. finaly got the thing fixed. have them inspect the cats for damage, then have them wipe the computer and re flash it with the sgt tune(unless your modified then use your own tune) after that start looking at individual injectors, have them test them if they can. and lastly check your plugs. if theyr not fowled then you may want to take a look at mechanical problems(valves for example. though that should be readily apparent)

 

in all likely hood they've already done most of this so they should be closing in on the problem. wish you lived near me, i'd come work some of my engine magic.

 

if any of this seems off to you guys i apologize again, not a good day for me.

 

heres the bottom line though, your car has started its teething phase, in this phase you make mistakes and find problems. if you dont make a mistake then you dont learn. no worries man they'll get her fixed up in no time im sure.

[blueone]

I have learned much since the SGT started having problems. This site has alot of great information.

 

No word yet from the dealer. The car has been there all day. Could be good, could be bad.

 

Hey man, just get your new plugs installed and you will be fine. This happened to me twice, once to a lesser degree when my car was n/a and for the last time after the blower was installed. I don't have a tenth of the knowlege that some of these guys have that have posted in this thread but I do know that my problems which seem to be exactly the same as the ones you are having and occurred under the same circumstances was caused by adding octane booster without a doubt. There is nothing wrong with my cats or my tune, my plugs were fouled by the booster simple as that. I would also like to know why as others have stated, but it is fouled plugs caused by adding the booster. By the way the only booster that I have ever used was 104+.

Jeff

[James Hill]

:happy feet:

 

Its fixed!! Runs like a champ. They replaced the plugs. Ford paid for one of them, I had to pay for the other seven. I guess Ford needed my money so they would not have to take any bail out money.

 

So here is the picture of the plugs they gave me back. I would really like to see the plug that they paid for.

 

So thanks all of you for the great info. I am just happy its fixed.

[SGT/SC2873]

:happy feet:

 

Its fixed!! Runs like a champ. They replaced the plugs. Ford paid for one of them, I had to pay for the other seven. I guess Ford needed my money so they would not have to take any bail out money.

 

So here is the picture of the plugs they gave me back. I would really like to see the plug that they paid for.

 

So thanks all of you for the great info. I am just happy its fixed.

Wow, guess we all learned a lesson at your expense. Just glad that's all it was. I know you are relieved too! Glad it worked out and wasn't too serious. Craig

[James Hill]

 

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I have one container left of 104+.........any bids?

[SGT4265]

Glad everything worked out. Youre up& running again, and maybe developed a good rapport with

your dealer>

[ARMORINE]

quick physics lesson boys, as you increase air pressure elextrical resistance of the air increases, hense you will have plugs that do not fire or find a quicker path to ground. doesnt answer the plug fouling quiestion but it does anwer part of it. i'll get on the fowling question when i dont feel under the weather. till then NO BOOSTER!

[68fastback]

:happy feet:

 

Its fixed!! Runs like a champ. They replaced the plugs. Ford paid for one of them, I had to pay for the other seven. I guess Ford needed my money so they would not have to take any bail out money.

 

So here is the picture of the plugs they gave me back. I would really like to see the plug that they paid for.

 

So thanks all of you for the great info. I am just happy its fixed.

 

Glad to hear that!!

[Strawman]

Why did Ford pay for just one? I don't get it, I'd think they'd pay for all or none, but one? And what about the labor?

[James Hill]

Why did Ford pay for just one? I don't get it, I'd think they'd pay for all or none, but one? And what about the labor?

 

 

I am not sure. I would guess that the one that they paid for was in really bad shape. I ended up paying $150.00 parts and labor.

[EL SHELBY]

:happy feet:

 

Its fixed!! Runs like a champ. They replaced the plugs. Ford paid for one of them, I had to pay for the other seven. I guess Ford needed my money so they would not have to take any bail out money.

 

So here is the picture of the plugs they gave me back. I would really like to see the plug that they paid for.

 

So thanks all of you for the great info. I am just happy its fixed.

 

To me that just seems fishy, I can understand not giving you the plug, but there is no reason why they cannot show you the plug.

[SkyDancer]

But it is still interesting to some (myself included) why it's having this effect and it certainly isn't just because of a few points higher octane, else the car would also barf on 93 octane ...which it doesn't ...that's what we were talking on.

 

Last night I had a discussion with a GM master mechanic that lives next door to me about the suggested "deeper causes" to the fouled plugs people are bringing up. He laughed and said he gets a kick when people try to make more of something than is really occurring.

 

He said with EFI, a car's ECU calc tables assume the recommended stock octane rating. He said the ECU timing tables are good for no greater than the stated octane rating + 2 full additional rating points. He said anything beyond stock rating + 2 can introduce squirreliness to the "timed" events of the fuel ignition process......and the fouled plugs are a "plain as the nose on your face signal" there is a likely problem with the the firing process.

 

Given the recommended octane for an SGT is 91 (at least according to my documents it is) then that is precisely the reason why 93 will still work without issue. He confirmed that throwing in the octane boost was the direct cause of the problem. He also went onto say that there is absolutely no gain to be made using octane additives to an essentially stock N/A configuration unless some real major changes toward forced induction are made. otherwise the money spent is just blowing out the tailpipes as ordinary exhaust.

 

He said the the root cause of the fouled plugs was the octane additive. He told me to tell you that "it is what it is"....."and for those people to learn what specifications and tolerances are for".

[wmoore]

So, we have learned that octane boot, or at least the 104+, is not good for the engine. So, what do you do if you are running on empty and the only gas you can find is 89 octane?

[SkyDancer]

Did Ford give you a reason why they wouldnt cover the plugs?

 

If Ford saw the plugs then they probably knew immediately that some additive was added to the gas. It not exactly something that a trained eye wouldn't know about.

 

To be honest I didn't expect Ford to reimburse me for my fouled plugs when I put boost in the tank. And they didn't. That stupid mistake I made by choosing to throw in additive cost me $172.00. I voided the warranty on the plugs as I (NOT FORD) violated the octane rating specification.

 

The stock plugs are made (and warranted) for applications based on the specified recommended octane rating for the particular car they are in and while driving under assumed STOCK conditions/expectations...which is not what the fuel is like after a person drops in an additive. Once a person decides and puts additive into the fuel that person is on their own regarding any problems arising from adding the additive to the fuel. Again...you make the decision to add above and beyond the assumed warranty conditions.....Ford didn't twist your arm to do it.

 

There is a certain and definite responsibility a person has to take for themselves particularly when the action performed originated from that person and without any knowledge by Ford that it happened. C'mon people lets be real about life and quit always trying to point fingers away from oneself when you make a plain dumb and totally uninformed decision to do something.

[SkyDancer]

So, we have learned that octane boot, or at least the 104+, is not good for the engine. So, what do you do if you are running on empty and the only gas you can find is 89 octane?

 

You put it in the tank and don't go stomping on it...and if you must stomp on it for any reason just back off the acceleration as soon as you start to hear pinging. I found that by getting into 5th gear everything seems to feel and sound OK. That doesn't mean that it was totally OK but it seemed minimized. And immediately get to a station where they do have the correct rated gas.

 

Again its just plain common sense as to what to do.

[gofastguy]

Glad to hear that all is well again in your engine bay. I'm sure you were worried. From what I understand, changing out the plugs is a good thing because there is a tendency for them to cause problems when left in too long.

 

If you start to feel too bad about what you spent for the plugs and labor, I could tell you how much I spent for a fuse to make my power windows work at Team Ford in Vegas--TOTAL RIP OFF!

[James Hill]

They say the best lessons learned are those lessons you learn yourself.

 

Although, had I known that all of this was going to happen, I would have never used the stuff, even though I have used it for years.

[lucian_108]

Hey man, just get your new plugs installed and you will be fine. This happened to me twice, once to a lesser degree when my car was n/a and for the last time after the blower was installed. I don't have a tenth of the knowlege that some of these guys have that have posted in this thread but I do know that my problems which seem to be exactly the same as the ones you are having and occurred under the same circumstances was caused by adding octane booster without a doubt. There is nothing wrong with my cats or my tune, my plugs were fouled by the booster simple as that. I would also like to know why as others have stated, but it is fouled plugs caused by adding the booster. By the way the only booster that I have ever used was 104+.

Jeff

 

 

Hi there, I had the same issue that you had. Were I live most gas stations only have 90 octane, so every once and a while I would put in some octane booster. Then I started developing the problem that you had. When I took it into the dealership they ran their test and called me up and asked me if I had been running octane booster, and if I had what kind? I told that I had been and the type I had been using. They told me that the only octane booster that Ford says is okay to use is one made by Chevron Techron. I am not sure what the exact name is though, I would ask you dealer for help on this. I am pretty fortunate with my dealerships shop they are really good people that will bend over backwards to fix a problem, but not cheap though. I believe when mine got fixed it cost me a little over $200. Anyways, I hope this helps for in the future.

 

 

Clark