LuLu Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 This is for track guys, those who run, or are looking forward to running their SGTs on the track. Some of this may be useful to those who do not, but are prone to spirited driving off the track. I should mention that I use an iPad, no keyboard, just a stylus pen. Thus, the only way I can add emphasis is to type ALL CAPS , or "quotation marks". This is page 1 Okay, enough of the dancing - lets get down to what this is all about - vehicle handling. or change tire pressures based upon temperature readings comments? Well, yes. I would like to comment. Before I do, let it be known that I have removed, or "cropped" the bulk of Albino's diligent post, to focus on what I want to bring forward. What I left has not been changed. No corrections to sp. or punc. Get a notebook, a tire tread depth gauge, tire pressure gauge and a temp reader. Harbor Frieght is a good place to start, but higher quality utensils are available. I do not prefer the infrared laser type temp readers, physical contact seems better to me. Open your book by listing all chassis modifications, torque wrench settings, measurements, ect, ect. Measure distance from a solid immovable object (frame) to the moving part (axle, control arm). Stuff can shift in a shakedown, you need to know where everything belongs. Save some photos if you can, for the "before and after" review. Tire pressure and temperature should NOT be undersold as a tool in the trackside chest. At this point, you have made your choices in style AND severity of modifications to the chassis of your SGT, and are headed out on to the blacktop to enjoy. I would presume that your "seat-of-your-pants dyno is likewise pleased. So, armed with a few hand tools for tightening up what may shake loose, out you go. Get past the wonder and delight of the first laps, or "heat". You did a good job, pat yourself on the back, and get over it. So, what else can you do? Here, trackside? Tire pressure, and tire temperature. Most important. Let's take it one at a time. Pressure is, to some degree, a matter of personal taste. Some drivers like the minus 30 PSI., others higher. Your "starting" PSI. should be determined by tire aspect, ratio, tread depth and compound. This is just to fix a starting point, nothing more. Let's use some common ground here. The tire is the Nitto NT05R. Read about it here: http://www.nittotire.com/race-tires/nt05r-dot-compliant-competition-drag-radial-tire/ Calm down, I have no relationship to any tire company. Pirelli, BFG and MT are more expensive, so, I elected to link Nitto. In fact, I don't even like this tire. Much too greasy for my needs, worthless in the rain. But many say it's perfect for the weekend warrior. BTW road course events ARE driven in the rain. For this examination, same size at each corner. I hope the nice wheels and tires are safe, find yourself some work scrubs. Nobody is looking at the track. 18X8.5 or 9 wheel, 275/40/18 tire. 35 PSI. to start, well talk. Mount, balance (road force if available) and index. By index, I mean draw a "plus" sign on the sidewall, and around to the first tread bar. Draw on the inside and out, the valve stem seems to be a likely anchor for this. Some will use tape, chalk is cheaper and you can use colors to your benefit. This will give you an instant visual guide to what's happening when you can't watch it. BTW, this is old school stuff. Today, folks are mounting GoPros on the fenders to capture the point of failure. Great idea, but I'm trying to not spend your money. 35 PSI.? Yes. Maybe 40 if you like. What you are looking for, is the inflation where the tire fails. Where it won't stick. And you want it from both ends of the spectrum, high and low PSI. As you move forward, you will lower the PSI. down to the slickness of a flat tire, and back up again. This establishes your range, on THIS car, with THESE tires, and YOUR selected modifications. Useless to trade this data. I think I'll break here, go to another page. Keep watch, be right back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39Mustang Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 That's why I chose the Griggs stuff its ALL adjustable when you want it and when you need it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I guess that it's too difficult to have a topic where brand names are not brought into the conversation. The original poster asked if a watts link is worth putting on his/hers SGT. Does having a watts set up have anything to do with how much horsepower you have? The answer is a firm NO. It has to do with body roll and rear roll center and what is happing with transferred weight loads on a tire. One is not limited to having to put on huge diameter anti-sway bars or ultra high spring rates to reduce roll and ending up with a super stiff ride thus limiting suspension and relying solely on tire sidewall for grip around a corner. Can you have too low of a roll center? YES Can you have too high a roll center? YES. Is the understeer of the vehicle in a corner due to the inside rear of the car being hiked up and pushing down on the front outside corner of the vehicle thus overloading the front outside tire and causing it to roll over and slide out? Is it due to the driver coming too hot into a corner and is likely overdriving the vehicle and needs to slow down the car more and late apex the corner. Here's one for ya all - If I choose to go to a watts link set up - which is a better design - one that has a differential mounted pivot point or one that has a chassis mounted pivot point location (taking in consideration that both have adjustable heights for the pivot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Haney Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Mr. Haney...you are too funny! And it's jmn444 we have to thank for the chuckles. He posted a link to page 3 of a thread somewhere here, to make a point about Kenny Brown. As if to say "hey, everyone, look at this guy's pain from KBP". The smart folks here, went back to page 1. Are you over it yet? The love affair YOU had with KBP? Its too funny, how you bitched and moaned about stuff you were deeply in love with just a few posts earlier. You want to talk about me? OMG! Who the fugg are you to say/ask anything about me at all? You are looney, or maybe strung out on the meds usually prescribed for back injuries? Don't know...and really do not care. Truthfully, you are not worth the words I just typed. Get lost dude, go away. And I am glad KBP gave you a refund, because now you have nothing to cry about. And I know the full story about KBP, Heidts, Alston, and the whole truth. You are way lost, someone has been feeding you a lot of crap. Loser. Big time. Okay...call out the dogs, let's get busy. I'll take question from legit people, not low posters here for the drama. Surely, not these 3. Yes I enjoyed the initial experience with the KB products. Now go back and look at the time of each post in that thread and see how long it took me to change my mind. In that time frame I not only saw the K-member bend under a car, but I also bent parts on my own car. Time and experiencing the products over that time changed my mind. Do you think I enjoyed wasting the money it took to replace those parts. KB finally refunded the parts costs, but they never refunded the labor costs to initially install and then later to remove them. You weren't the one talking with KB and Rich for months about the fact they altered the left front mounting position of the LCA versus the right for caster. Or the fact that this limited the ability to adjust the camber in the left front. Both Rich and Kenny agreed with me that they needed to change the design and strength of the K-Member, but they couldn't get Heidts to do it. As far as my back is concerned.........I don't take any pain meds for it. Why? Because I'm allergic to all opiate drugs, synthetic or natural. I'd rather live in pain then live the allergic reaction. Now for you to personally attach me is your problem. I was only speaking from the experience I had using those parts, nothing more. If your opinion differs fine, but to personally attach me and call me a drug user and crazy isn't playing nice.......the professionalism you are claiming to have as a LEO went out the window. In fact it makes me wonder how much you'd altered your testimony in court to get the bad guy in your mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Yes I enjoyed the initial experience with the KB products. Now go back and look at the time of each post in that thread and see how long it took me to change my mind. In that time frame I not only saw the K-member bend under a car, but I also bent parts on my own car. Time and experiencing the products over that time changed my mind. Do you think I enjoyed wasting the money it took to replace those parts. KB finally refunded the parts costs, but they never refunded the labor costs to initially install and then later to remove them. You weren't the one talking with KB and Rich for months about the fact they altered the left front mounting position of the LCA versus the right for caster. Or the fact that this limited the ability to adjust the camber in the left front. Both Rich and Kenny agreed with me that they needed to change the design and strength of the K-Member, but they couldn't get Heidts to do it.As far as my back is concerned.........I don't take any pain meds for it. Why? Because I'm allergic to all opiate drugs, synthetic or natural. I'd rather live in pain then live the allergic reaction. Now for you to personally attach me is your problem. I was only speaking from the experience I had using those parts, nothing more. If your opinion differs fine, but to personally attach me and call me a drug user and crazy isn't playing nice.......the professionalism you are claiming to have as a LEO went out the window. In fact it makes me wonder how much you'd altered your testimony in court to get the bad guy in your mind This post has been edited. All I can say at this time, is that the topic of KBP is closed. Apparently, Mr. Haney was not aware of this. There will be no further comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 This is for track guys, those who run, or are looking forward to running their SGTs on the track. Some of this may be useful to those who do not, but are prone to spirited driving off the track. I should mention that I use an iPad, no keyboard, just a stylus pen. Thus, the only way I can add emphasis is to type ALL CAPS , or "quotation marks". This is page 2: Okay, enough of the dancing - lets get down to what this is all about - vehicle handling. or change tire pressures based upon temperature readings comments? Well, yes. I would like to comment. Before I do, let it be known that I have removed, or "cropped" the bulk of Albino's diligent post, to focus on what I want to bring forward. What I left has not been changed. No corrections to sp. or punc. Sorry folks, necessary before I resume. Sample and notate tire temps cool, taken at the inside, center, and outside tread bars. Much later down the road you will concern yourself with temps from the wells between the bars, but not yet. Immediately, or as soon as possible after your heat, sample tire temps again, most effective when done by a pit crew, ASAP. Notate, allow to cool, and remove 5 PSI. each corner. Down to 30 for the next heat, notate again, cool again. Inspect tires frame side and road side for signs of roll over and sidewall stress. Keep going down until you hit the low PSI., where it begins to slip out from underneath, then increase back up the scale as needed to hit your high PSI. Your high should change, and when you do this again, the low will change. Why? Because you are a better driver now, and getting used to new experiences. Congrats! At first, you can chop this up into 5 PSI. sections, eventually zeroing in on an exact number. I.E. from 30 to 29 or 31, ect. This will be your ideal number, write it on each tire, as well as the location of each tire on the car. Do I need to explain that the tires will wear independent of each other? They will. The RF will wear out first, it carries the greatest load. But, this is the benefit of same size tires, you can rotate often enough to not disturb the benefit of other structures. Use the cooling time to notate your comfort comments. Stiff, loose, rolling over, and so on. THIS IS IMPORTANT. Keep it timely with the experience. By the time you get home, or while discussing it all with others, you will have forgotten the important stuff, or, homogenized it with comments from others. This is why cops separate suspects and witnesses, but the press won't. Think about it. What's left for you to do, is play with the PSI., notate temps, compare against comfort and safety, monitor tire condition. Your butt will tell the story, temps will add data. Looks like a lot of work, but it is a lot of fun to know exactly where you are at with your car. Once you round off the sharp corners I have included, you will be one step closer to being a pro, without renting a hotel room. Also, be ready for the attention you will garner from novices. They will bug you, make 'em sweat. This...Is one of the things I've been doing since I was a kid. When I go out to tracks today, I'll seek out volunteers and set up a team near the bottom of the track exit, and collect data for others. It's always appreciated, I have collected interesting teams too, sometimes other drivers done for the day. It is a lot of fun when this happens. Your work sheet should start with the RF tire, back to the RR, then LF and LR. This is the order of importance. Tire temps will bounce around quite a bit, but should settle down once you locate your preferred PSI. Ideally, tire temps will be equal, or close to equal across the tire. When you see this, you will know the sweat has paid off, you are getting the best adhesion your tires can give. Last note, DO NOT apply the emergency brake after track, and if you have a pit crew working, GET OFF the brakes. Hot shoes and rotors can weld together, or, create low spots in the rotors. If you are on an incline, or concerned about rolling, shut it off in gear. I know I don't have to say this to y'all, but one never knows who is reading here. That all I have to add to Albinos post, hope I haven't stolen any thunder. Carry on gents, y'all be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Mac, No thunder to steal. If I may add to your post - people have a general tendency to run too low of a tire pressure to compensate for a harsh ride quality - not a good idea. Remember that there is a minimum load rating for the vehicle when choosing a tire for your vehicle and as Mac noted aspect ratios and compounds will have an effect. I'm not sure about the comment about the RF having the greatest load. I know that my fat butt sits on the left side (51.2% on left side) and being on that side of the car I'm able to hit my marks easier on that side more than on right turns (easier to use the full width of the track/turn) but that's me. If you have your roll centers too low you don't allow the suspension to do it's job and a higher percentage of load transfer goes to the tire causing it to overheat thus losing grip. I believe that this may help some understand your comments about how to find the range of tire pressures and determining how to stay within that range in order to maximize the amount of run time you get with your tires best adhesion. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmn444 Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I've enjoyed playing with this tire pyrometer.. easy to use and fairly cheap... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005JVFTTM/ref=od_aui_detailpages01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I used to just use a tire crayon to see how it rolled over, but temps help with knowing if your camber is good too... data is your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Haney Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 This post has been edited. All I can say at this time, is that the topic of KBP is closed. Apparently, Mr. Haney was not aware of this. There will be no further comment.You got it edited before I could quote it. But at least I read it. I hope you can go back through the post history and see that I never insulted you or inferred that you were a drug addict. In fact if you read my prior posts you'll actually see that I complimented you, before you insulted me by inferring I am crazy and out of my mind on drugs. Good day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 You got it edited before I could quote it. But at least I read it. I hope you can go back through the post history and see that I never insulted you or inferred that you were a drug addict. In fact if you read my prior posts you'll actually see that I complimented you, before you insulted me by inferring I am crazy and out of my mind on drugs.Good day I'll give you this. I edited my post because I did not keep my word. Previously, I called it closed on the KBP stuff, and I did not respect my own decision. People will think of me what they wish and some are not shy about sharing that. But, I have to be comfortable in my own skin, and I was not. I wasn't being fair to me. We have not been kind to the others seeking advice. I will not respond to discussions of KBP. Now you know, feel free to open a fresh thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 I've enjoyed playing with this tire pyrometer.. easy to use and fairly cheap... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005JVFTTM/ref=od_aui_detailpages01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I used to just use a tire crayon to see how it rolled over, but temps help with knowing if your camber is good too... data is your friend. You can also use things like white liquid shoe polish and stripe the tires across (bead to bead). You must first insure that your tire pressures are correct before advancing to tire temps because you will get erroneous temperatures if your pressures are off. I index the tires @ the valve stem so that we can monitor how much the tire slips on the wheel (which mostly occurs under braking) Time to get back to the topic - a watts link which has it's pivot mounted to the axle (differential cover) has minimal change from it's mount point as far as locating the rear roll center. A watts that has it's pivot mounted to the chassis will have a roll center which changes as the chassis height changes. This actually is a good thing - as the vehicle comes down a straight and the driver applies the brakes, the load force shifts forward and raises the rear of the car ( rear roll center goes up and aids in initial rotation ). Then as we proceed into the corner the load begins to move back to between the front track and rear track and as we get on the throttle the load force moves rearward to the back end of the vehicle. As this is occurring the rear roll center is dropping and permits/aids us to get power/grip down on both inside and outside rear tires as it keeps the car from wanting to oversteer. If our coefficient is great enough (along with forward bite) we may even be able to lift the inside front tire. If we have limited suspension travel or too stiff of a suspension we may end up overloading the rear tires capabilities and have the back break loose (over steer on exit). If this occurs we may have to look at the components that we've placed on the vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 You can also use things like white liquid shoe polish and stripe the tires across (bead to bead). You must first insure that your tire pressures are correct before advancing to tire temps because you will get erroneous temperatures if your pressures are off. I index the tires @ the valve stem so that we can monitor how much the tire slips on the wheel (which mostly occurs under braking) Time to get back to the topic - a watts link which has it's pivot mounted to the axle (differential cover) has minimal change from it's mount point as far as locating the rear roll center. A watts that has it's pivot mounted to the chassis will have a roll center which changes as the chassis height changes. This actually is a good thing - as the vehicle comes down a straight and the driver applies the brakes, the load force shifts forward and raises the rear of the car ( rear roll center goes up and aids in initial rotation ). Then as we proceed into the corner the load begins to move back to between the front track and rear track and as we get on the throttle the load force moves rearward to the back end of the vehicle. As this is occurring the rear roll center is dropping and permits/aids us to get power/grip down on both inside and outside rear tires as it keeps the car from wanting to oversteer. If our coefficient is great enough (along with forward bite) we may even be able to lift the inside front tire. If we have limited suspension travel or too stiff of a suspension we may end up overloading the rear tires capabilities and have the back break loose (over steer on exit). If this occurs we may have to look at the components that we've placed on the vehicle. Thanks for posting this. I was wondering which type of Watts was better after seeing the Whiteline. http://www.americanmuscle.com/whiteline-wattslink-0510.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmn444 Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 I've heard that whiteline stuff should be avoided in general... No personal experience to support that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Just as a little history on Mustangs and watts links - Bud Moore/Kar Kraft used a watts link set up on the 1969 Boss Trans-Am Mustangs and the pivot was on the chassis. Most feel that the pivot unit should be located on the chassis because it is a component which is used to reference the chassis roll center- not the axle centerline. JMO/.02c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 The only remaining issue that I see here is the one concerning sprung weight verses unsprung weight with the use of panhard bars verses watts linkages ( differential mounted pivot verses frame mount pivot ) if your concerns are with weight issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2007red40thGT500 Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 ok, so for mere mortals like myself, who bought the Shelby unit, which of the 3 available mounting holes should it be installed with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 IMO - based upon your mods - the bottom hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2007red40thGT500 Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 Great. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT3477 Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 i read that the KR diff cover would fit behind the Shelby Watts link. not true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 I've had a couple of SGTs and GT500s with the KR diff cover and the SPP/Fays2 watts linkage paired up and have no problems however, I've heard of some claiming that it would not work on their car. I don't know if it's the rear LCAs or what that is causing the difference between that combo not fitting on some cars while it fits on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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