Watt's Link

[07SGT5111]

Just curious what your experiences with these are like? Is it overkill for my horsepower/application? I want a solid suspension for autocross and right now am running stock Shelby components plus the stuff in my sig. I have Michelin Pilot super sports. Is this necessary? Or should i focus funds elsewhere? Thanks.

 

 

[Jer]

A Watts link should be considered a "must-have" mod for these cars, regardless of power or application. The Shelby/Fays2 is my favorite, and yields an imediate improvement in the car's handling, at ANY speed.

 

Highly recommended.

 

 

Jer

[ilmor]

A Watts link should be considered a "must-have" mod for these cars, regardless of power or application. The Shelby/Fays2 is my favorite, and yields an imediate improvement in the car's handling, at ANY speed.

 

Highly recommended.

 

 

Jer

 

Hello Jer! On a related note, I believe there is or was a nice aftermarket rear differential cover that will clear the watts link setup w/o any modifications. Do you recall what that was? These two apparently will not:

 

http://www.shelbystore.com/product-p/KRDIFF.htm

 

http://www.shelbystore.com/product-p/Z15-M-4033-KA.htm

[jmn444]

Caster camber plates first. That gets the front to stop pushing.

 

The watts would be my second modification.

 

Watch your class rules though!

[Shelby Nick]

It looks like I would have to loose my strut tower brace if I install caster camber plates. If so, is there another option, that would have the same effect on the car, that I could install?

[jmn444]

I don't know why it would preclude using the brace, but I don't use mine so can't verify that... the strut brace is pretty much cosmetic on this chassis anyway, the additional camber would help you way more than the brace would.

[jmn444]

I used J&M plates... here's a look at how they look installed (not tightened in the pic though), so you can likely tell if the brace could coexist with this setup...

 

[jmn444]

I was able to get -2.6 degrees with them if i recall correctly. Not sure what other brands will get you but I was happy with that number AND while I didn't check it, these do give a bit more caster too which helps the dynamic camber too.

[2007red40thGT500]

 

Hello Jer! On a related note, I believe there is or was a nice aftermarket rear differential cover that will clear the watts link setup w/o any modifications. Do you recall what that was? These two apparently will not:

 

http://www.shelbystore.com/product-p/KRDIFF.htm

 

http://www.shelbystore.com/product-p/Z15-M-4033-KA.htm

 

 

My understanding is that the KR diff cover will NOT clear, but the other Ford finned cover WILL. I haven't installed my watts link yet so I'm not 100% sure. I'm also under the impression the Ford Racing and The Shelby differential covers will NOT clear either. Only the standard, flat OEM cover and finned cover work.

[2007red40thGT500]

This tells you in the description... http://www.shelbystore.com/Watts-Link-RED-p/s197.htm

[jmn444]

On a side note, the NON-shelby watts is actually different with additional range of adjustment for roll center.... I haven't done enough testing to know how much that potentially helps, but you can't add more adjustment later so IMO getting the non-shelby version is a wise choice. I think price is the same either way.

[2007red40thGT500]

For brand-consistency, I only buy Shelby American or Ford Racing parts, unless their is nothing available. However, for someone interested in racing, I can see why you might mix parts.

[Shelby Nick]

Jason,

Thanks for the info!

Nick

[jmn444]

well technically almost all the "shelby" parts are different brands with their sticker on it, so that really doesn't make sense to me, but to each their own! The non-shelby watts link is made by Fays just like the shelby version....

 

There's really not many parts that you can't get exactly the same but without the sticker. Don't get me wrong, I like my calipers that have Shelby engraved in them, but Baer still made them and probably pays shelby a commission for using the name. It's all about the $$$ which isn't a bad thing

[ilmor]

This tells you in the description... http://www.shelbystore.com/Watts-Link-RED-p/s197.htm

 

Ah, so apparently this one will work w/out modification - http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=22768

 

Thanks.

[William Rodgers]

Mine is in my garage, it is on my to do list for spring projects.

[2007red40thGT500]

yes, i know all that.

 

anyway, would like to know how well the watts works as mine is sitting in my den. kinda afraid to take it somewhere because i'm not sure most shops will know what to do with it.

[LuLu]

This is all you need right here...

 

http://www.kennybrown.com/ags-40-gt-4-suspension-system-1

 

This is why...

 

http://www.kennybrown.com/kbtv

 

Start with part 1 at the bottom of the page, and work up the 6 episodes

 

Before any of y'all start calling me a "vendor whore", know the background between Kenny Brown Performance and me.

 

I bought my first SGT and loved it so much, i bought another. After I bought "LuLu", I started shopping for hot rod parts. I was fairly active here, listening to all I could hear about modding the S-197 framed SGT. Prior to this, I was into heavy cars, and I owned several Mercury Marauders, all built for speed, including the first supercharged test pig "Patches", the centerfold of the April 2003 edition of Car and Driver.

 

I didn't know much about Shelby other than he knew his shit, but y'all were not happy leaving the SGT alone, and we all got busy tinkering. By the advice posted here back then, well, it read pretty much the same as it reads here now and I bought a Fays II Watts link and shit control arms (Yes, the FRPP M-4022-KA cover fits). It was a nice upgrade, worth the money at the time, and this was before Shelby pasted his name on it.

 

I'm on the phone with KBP tech support with questions about bushings, and I'm switched to Kenny. He made me "an offer you can't refuse" and I let him install all of his AGS 4.0 stuff, bumper to bumper, if I would road test it and provide an honest evaluation of his product. I agreed, but only if I could be honest about it. Exactly what he wanted. Done. Both cars.

 

LuLu was already molested with a D1SC, but "Lucy", my second SGT, was full Shelby stock, perfect for this project. The road test was surprising. Could it be the best road suspension I had ever driven? In Vegas the Shelby crew inspected and tested Lucy, and we went on to Spring Mountain. The answer is yes, it was the best. 4600 miles, 3500 pictures, and coverage on Mustang TV...peek here:

 

http://www.kennybrown.com/blog/12/march/lucy-and-kenny-brown-head-out-classic-american-road-trip

 

I am telling y'all the absolute bottom line truth here. My N/A Shelby pissed off quite a few people at Spring Mountain, mostly the GT500 guys. While they left me in the dust on the two straights we had open (more like 1-1/2) Lucy got them all back in the corners. I had them all checking their mirrors more than looking ahead of themselves. Maybe one or two may 'fess up here, but I'm not holding my breath. Three stopped by my paddock to check out my supercharger. What a surprise they got. Two more, Track/Event managers, also stopped by. Kicked me out of my class...And put me in the next higher (highest) division. True. I still have the dots on my windshield. Okay, enough. Don't mean to sound like a braggart, just trying to spell out the performance here.

 

Really...This AGS 4.0 stuff IS the very best suspension I have seen on any production car...Ever. Got it all on both cars, which are heavily contested in the season, and I'll never change it out. Never.

 

So...Do not buy anything because of what I post, but take a few moments to page through the 411 and links I have added. If you want to call them, ask for Rich, he is Kenny's #2 guy and knows his stuff.

 

Look...If you buy stuff without checking out Kenny Brown Performance, you're not serious about your Shelby, or your driving.

 

Just my .02C on all this, y'all be safe.

[jmn444]

For what $3k gets you with Kenny brown you are much better off with camber caster plates and a watts link. Those two things will do what is most noticeable in their package for a whopping $1k. If you were going to buy all the other stuff anyway, well that's another story, but I'd still prefer an adjustable watts in the rear.

 

LuLu, what springs and dampers did they give you? They list that as optional and their packages are all over the board in price.

 

That blurb on the KB website about lowering the roll center eliminating the need for a big rear bar seems wrong to me. Lowering a roll center does the opposite of what a big sway bar does.

 

Being able to adjust the roll center with a watts is a much better solution than KB's fixed point relocation kit with a panhard IMO.

 

I'm sure all that stuff made your car quicker I'm just saying there's a better and cheaper way to get similar results.

[LuLu]

For what $3k gets you with Kenny brown you are much better off with camber caster plates and a watts link. Those two things will do what is most noticeable in their package for a whopping $1k. If you were going to buy all the other stuff anyway, well that's another story, but I'd still prefer an adjustable watts in the rear.

LuLu, what springs and dampers did they give you? They list that as optional and their packages are all over the board in price.

That blurb on the KB website about lowering the roll center eliminating the need for a big rear bar seems wrong to me. Lowering a roll center does the opposite of what a big sway bar does.

Being able to adjust the roll center with a watts is a much better solution than KB's fixed point relocation kit with a panhard IMO.

I'm sure all that stuff made your car quicker I'm just saying there's a better and cheaper way to get similar results.

First...Allow me to say, and with great respect for y'all, that I do not want to get into any pissing contests over this topic. Kenny has a FaceBook page and a blog, and Kenny alone will respond to you. It's only fair he be given that chance. If you don't like his answers, well okay then. At least you have a chance to speak with him directly. I don't see this opportunity elsewhere in the aftermarket.

 

Remember that the "Lucy Does Vegas" was an investigative project for Kenny. The first time the AGS 4.0 stuff was let out to play in traffic. This is real race car stuff and the project was successful, but it may not be for you. This is real driver stuff, Kenny has won championship races with this suspension, but its wasted money if you don't track your car. All Lucy proved was that it was streetable. All I learned was how much fun I could have with an SGT, street or track.

 

Two...Specific answers to your questions can be read on this page, including the specs you ask about.

 

http://www.kennybrown.com/content-type/kenny-tests-hr-rss-coil-over-suspension-kit-s-197-mustang-‘05

 

Now that you have read it, I have the H&R RSS shock/strut package as described in the link. Awesome stuff, and I must agree that there are a few more dollars involved, yes. But, you don't have to do it all at once either. Just do it right. Kenny has mentioned something about Eibach, but he wasn't specific with me at that time.

 

No caster/camber plates. Redesigned and improved lower front control arms, with some light machining at install, and all necessary adjustments are done from the bottom up. Just a few tweaks to the front end alignment, and your done. My girls are quite the drive. My tires are wearing very nicely. I'm going to see 15K miles or better on my Invos, and that's quite an improvement.

 

Kenny also liked the Shelby front sway bar, so we are good there and I kept them. No sway bar in the rear though. None

 

"Whopping 1K" you say. My early experience with the Fay's link was in the 700-750 buck range, and another 200 for control arms. Sadly, I could not recover more than 500 bucks for all that when I switched over to KBP, but half was better than none.

 

Remember folks, the SGT has some nice suspension parts from Shelby. All FRP stuff Mustang owners are looking for. As used kits, they do well on eBay. If we had stock Mustang GT stuff, who would care?

 

Well, this is the best I have for now, gotta run up to Boston. Y'all take care, be safe.

[jmn444]

I'm not trying to start any pissing match, just pointing out that while you had great results with a free package, there is a much more economical way to get it done.

 

I bought my fays2 watts for $650 + $22 shipping last fall. The J&M camber plates were $254 shipped. So yep, $926 to get more caster (that's what the KB arms do) and camber (KB does it with $30 bolts at the bottom of the strut) and a MUCH better rear end locating system that can be tuned. I'd bet that gets you 95% or more of the benefits of that $3k package.

 

Leaves plenty of money for quality dampers, a torsen T2R diff and gas money lol.

 

I did just notice his arms claim to raise the front roll center, THAT I would like to learn more about....

[jmn444]

Oh, almost forgot to ask, do you know what your final caster and camber settings were with the KB kit?

[jmn444]

yes, i know all that.

 

anyway, would like to know how well the watts works as mine is sitting in my den. kinda afraid to take it somewhere because i'm not sure most shops will know what to do with it.

 

 

Forgot to answer this, but the rear is more predictable in both left and right turns now, adding a better diff will finish it off nicely but overall BIG improvement as it is.

 

I'm also able to put down a LOT more power thru the corners before it slips out into oversteer land.... The roll center adjustments give you a ton of control over exactly how balanced the car is.

[LuLu]

Just resetting a few facts here.

 

The Kenny Brown Rear Grip Kit sells for 1395.00. The kit includes upper and lower control arms, and does not employ the Shelby/FRPP sway bar. You should shop the market for a quality control arm kit to better know how much you will not have to spend on control arms. You should also review Craigs List and ebay offerings for a complete FRPP rear sway bar kit to better know what you may expect to recover from the sale of "take-off" parts. This will give you a better understanding of just how much the KBP kit will cost in real dollars from your budget.

 

The KBP kit is not a "fixed in place" control system. There are seven (7) high quality race-end Heims Joints in that structure, and you can explore endless combinations to get the best handling possible, as well as the best results possible from supporting structures i.e. brake and tire compounds of your choice. You want a "balanced" car, everything working together for maximum control. But, if you do not favor a newly installed brake pad, your tire adhesion is ageing and slipping away, your climate has changed, or, what ever the case...You can get what works best by dialing around your disappointment until something better comes along. This feature defines "adjustability".

 

Kenny does not employ caster/camber plates. He believes the correct geometry is present in the upper fixed end of the strut, and allows for fine tuning that from the bottom up. Details for a professional sport alignment are available from KBP for the asking. Free.

 

An improved lower control arm, tie rod ends, and a handful of nuts and bolts will build more control and make that control more effective, if you wish to go this route. Frankly, if you are not tracking your car, why would you so invest? Come to think of it, Shelby delivers the best of FRPP spring/shock/strut components available to improve handling on the SGT. Shelby did not include caster/camber plates.

 

Kenny Brown is rather crafty. He posts a ton of 411 about suspension tuning on his web site, all for free. You don't have to log in, or, "subscribe". Just read. Watch free videos. You will have questions, and Kenny makes himself available for Q and A on social media. If you would rather argue why you are correct than learn more, its okay. Kenny would like to hear from you too.

 

This is all I have on this topic, gents. Y'all be safe.

[2007red40thGT500]

 

 

Forgot to answer this, but the rear is more predictable in both left and right turns now, adding a better diff will finish it off nicely but overall BIG improvement as it is.

 

I'm also able to put down a LOT more power thru the corners before it slips out into oversteer land.... The roll center adjustments give you a ton of control over exactly how balanced the car is.

 

 

thank you, that's good information and helps motivate me to get it installed.

[jmn444]

 

 

thank you, that's good information and helps motivate me to get it installed.

 

Anytime. I will say I had one "issue" with my install. I understood the directions to say NOT to use the locking nuts until I was happy with the adjustments, so I spent a day at the track with the non-locking nuts holding it together... LUCKILY, it didn't come apart till somewhere along my drive home....

 

The adjustment referenced is just the basic assembly adjustment, NOT the roll center tuning. make sure you use the lock nuts and loctite on everything it tells you to before driving it.

 

I think I spent 2-3 hours on install with a buddy around to help, it's not complicated really, just takes some time and having a digital level (or angle finder may be the term for it) will help you set things up a lot quicker.

 

I'm not sure if it said in the instructions to do this, but you want to start with the side that has the axle vent to set the arm lengths, as that point is fixed, then you make the drivers side arm match that side in length.

 

Torquing down some of the bolts took some forethought as well since once the propeller is attached you may not be able to get a torque wrench on some parts.

 

Feel free to IM me if you have any questions during assembly.

[jmn444]

Lulu, I didn't think I was arguing. Happy to learn, and I assumed you'd have the info to back up your statements without telling me that I need to contact KB... feel free to school me as I'm not short on questions about your statements:

 

So you don't know what your alignment settings are? Camber is king in autocross, I know if I used the bolts to get my -2.6 degrees that my 275 tire would be rubbing the strut. I know this because I tried the bolts. I'm curious about your tire sizes and how much camber you are running.

 

I get where you are coming from on the price of the rear kit, it's not unreasonable IF you wanted a panhard with non-adjustable roll center and "needed" the adjustable control arms. You are 100% right that if you want/need those things, then by all means spend the money. Or get a better locating device for less than half the cost, and decide for yourself if you'd like to upgrade the control arms from any number of vendors as it appears you can get lowers for $300 and upper with bracket for $300 from some top brands if you are so inclined.

 

But getting to those rear control arms... What adjustment would you make on the rear control arms (upper or lower) to compensate for worn tires? I've understood using this to help a car launch straight in the quarter, but my understanding is that you have a certain pinion angle requirement (not affected by tires) and a certain desire to eliminate rear steer in a racing environment (also not affected by the tires) where you turn in both directions, so what other adjustments could be done to enhance traction without causing either of those aspects to change negatively?

 

Also, are you suggesting the the friction coefficient of a brake pad decreases as it's worn down? I've never experienced that or heard of that... do they heat cycle like tires? Do you have a source for that info? What control arm adjustments would you make to compensate for worn brakes?

 

I understand that KB is using a control arm and bolts instead of the CC plates... but I'm not convinced that you understand that they do pretty much the same thing for alignment settings but at a significant price difference. "Fine tuning from the bottom up" doesn't create more camber and caster than tuning from the top does. It's simply a matter of changing the angle of the spindle in relation to the ground. Both systems do that. His MIGHT have a better steering axis inclination angle, but I doubt that is enough of a difference in dynamic camber to justify the cost. It would matter more in a car were we weren't able to get +7 of caster from the factory IMO. His system also MAY have a slightly different roll center effect, but BOTH systems effectively raise the front roll center and since he didn't change the front bar I'm going to assume that it's not a material difference. I suppose if you want the possibly stronger arm you should get it, but i haven't seen any rash of broken lower factory arms on the forums...

 

I'm unclear as to your point about Shelby not supplying a caster camber plate, they also didn't supply most of what you are recommending so please clarify what you mean there.

 

You seem to be very keen on adjustable aspects of the KB stuff, but this makes me wonder why you seem to think his non-adjustable panhard (plus control arms) could possibly be better than using a watts link. I would "argue" that unless you are experiencing wheel hop or rear steer, that adjustable control arms really won't benefit you that much compared to the ability to adjust roll center AND you get a bonus of centering the rear slightly better than a panhard in the process.

 

I look forward to learning

[LuLu]

Tis true, jmn, you are not "arguing". I accept that. However, you take every word I post and twist it and turn it to mean something I never said, and never meant to say. Likewise, you ignore other statements altogether. How does this help others reading here to make a decision on how to get improved control over their SGTs?

 

You are not arguing, no, but you DO want to spar with me, and not Kenny Brown. Good Lord, my friend, what do you achieve here, other than to show off to us all what you believe you know about this topic? Are you trying to show others here that you believe I do not know? Would it not be better for us all for you to ask Kenny your questions directly? Perhaps return here as the victor of that discussion? Would it please you to have Kenny Brown himself to post in this thread? I do not have an answer for any of these questions. I am a genuine failure.

 

Kenny Brown teaches people a lot of things about suspension and how it works. He also teaches, by demonstration, to not "dis" the other guy. Never spoken, or written under his signature, is disrespect for other manufacturers, their products, or their customers. All he will speak about are the benefits of his school of thought, and his products. From the beginning, all I asked of others here, is to go take a peek at what he has to say. Right or wrong, advice of any sort is good to have. I have highlighted a few products that work well for me. Is (has) this been wrong of me?

 

I did not, and do not wish to entertain your questions when better, professional, guidance is available to us all. Responding to your questions will never satisfy you. You will twist my replies to untruths, or, ignore them altogether while preparing yet another question designed to allow you to show off at my expense. This is your habit, i have noted it before, and I'll not be a party to feeding it now.

 

The 411 you seek is at http://www.kennybrown.com. He would love to hear from you.

[jmn444]

Fair enough. I didn't think I was "twisting" anything, sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I tried to get clarification on many of the points I felt were wrong. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Kevin Patten]