Watt's Link

[jmn444]

Awwwww, come on Albino.... you HAVE to have something to say about all this.... tell me I'm wrong if you have to, I know I don't know as much as you

[Kevin Patten]

You're doing just fine Jason - should we talk about front and rear roll centers or maybe front anti-dive or instant centers, cross diagonal weight transfers, GC, or just call Mr. Haney over to discuss his experience with the KB product line to share.

 

Here's one - anti sway bar effects verses roll center effects.

[jmn444]

OK, at the risk of hijacking the thread, I haven't taken the time to look at anti dive yet... I saw that as one of the benefits of the KB front lower arms that I need to look into... my 07 definitely has some brake dive issues.

 

What are my best options to correct that?

 

I'm somewhat hoping that switching from the "stock" frpp dampers to koni sports will help, but as long as they fix my floaty feeling over 110 mph I will be happy... any other benefits will be gravy.

[Kevin Patten]

The KB front lower control arms have the extended studs on the ball joint which is how he is raising the front roll center - there is no change in anti-dive here. He may have some anti-dive changes incorporated within his subframe assembly but I'm not seeing this. The extended ball joints must be used with the extended outer tie rod ends or a bumpsteer kit or you will experience some really bad toe changes. Having a shock / strut which is adjustable is nice and those are all an adjustment of rebound (and only at the slow shaft velocity portion at that). With that said - one would stiffen up the rear shocks rebound adjustment to reduce the speed of the forward weight motion under heavy braking. S197 cars which are lowered benefit greatly by raising the front roll center and lowering the rear roll center. The KB rear adjustable panhard rod only has two heights and the rear LCA relocate brackets are just a single position - not too appealing and good luck on if it will work for you as a driver and how you drive your car. There are better brands out there with features that allow a wider range of adjustment to accomplish a person's desired chassis tuning for a variety of road courses. JMO

 

P.S. - I was in attendance at Sonoma Raceway when KB came to test his AGS 4.0 system.

[jmn444]

For future readers of this thread.... please check this one out too:

 

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php/topic/77903-kenny-brown-susension/page-3?hl=%20kenny%20%20brown%20%20suspension

 

I'm sure there are people that have issues with any brand, so it's all with a grain of salt, but it reinforces my initial belief that there are much better ways to skin a cat.

[Mr. Haney]

Remember that the "Lucy Does Vegas" was an investigative project for Kenny. The first time the AGS 4.0 stuff was let out to play in traffic. This is real race car stuff and the project was successful, but it may not be for you. This is real driver stuff, Kenny has won championship races with this suspension, but its wasted money if you don't track your car. All Lucy proved was that it was streetable. All I learned was how much fun I could have with an SGT, street or track.

Oh boy.........man did KB blow a hot load of BS at you. If you think you were the first to use Kenny Brown Performance products on a street driven car then I must not exist. Read the link that was posted. Also since I removed the Kenny Brown products and replaced them with CorteX Racing Watts Link, Torque Arm and rear axle relocation brackets with LCAs and reinstalled my stock K-Member and front LCAs the car handles better then it did with all of the KB stuff.

 

I've seriously come to the conclusion that any type of written article about a specific products and company are 99% BS. The real evaluation of the products is how well it stands the test of time. Hopefully KB has re-engineered a few things since I had their products on my car over 2 years ago. Because I bent KB stuff on a street driven car

[LuLu]

Hi y'all, just back from mousing around on the interweb, where I found this:

 

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/sale_items.aspx

 

This page is the "garage sale" section at Maximum Motorsports, an aftermarket suspension/drivetrain company of notable reputation. Topping the list are caster/camber plates for the S197 frame. Should you choose to follow this theory, MM's sale price isn't too shabby. Also found a thorough Q&A on caster/camber plates and how they function, courtesy of MM.

 

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/faq_ccplates.aspx

 

While visiting MM, I could not help to notice the absence of a Watts link, or, components of similar design and function. Instead, MM offers panhard bar improvements. This is not to say that the Watts Link theory is not valid. Indeed, there are a few ways to achieve improved grip on the pavement, not just one. What I do encourage, is researching options before loosening the purse strings.

 

I want to offer an apology to y'all. I did not intend to hijack this thread in favor of just one aftermarket vendor. This thread is an important step in basic research, and I should have encourage this over all. I offer a tip of my cap to the SGT owner who opened this discussion. Kudos are due to the owners who have expressed shyness over just bolting something on, without knowing why. Worse yet, only because everyone else did. I know "marching to a different drummer" exposes one to criticisms of the larger band, but if you like the music...Nevermind.

 

None of us were born into this world knowing all there is to know about wrenching cars. I can only imagine how a woman may feel about delivering a newborn with box-end wrenches in hand. Seeking more knowledge before you decide on one path is wise, and Maximum Motorsports is another retail company looking for your business. I favor Kenny Brown not for his generosity towards me in hardware, but for the effect of that hardware on my driving experience. I do admire his willingness to teach and share in his successes of over 30 years behind the wheel, and under the car.

 

'Nuff said. It's for y'all to benefit from. Remember, blind faith is just that.

 

Blind.

 

Carry on gents, y'all be safe.

 

PS. Remember too, that any changes in the OEM design will produce changes in comfort. You can change your SGT into a skateboard and love every driving moment, but you'll have to endure the sore butt that comes with it.

[jmn444]

I'd like to add to the maximum motorsports comments...

 

One thing that stands out, they do NOT offer a "maximum grip box" for the '05 and up cars. This tells me that they know that they don't have all the right parts for this chassis... I'm not sure why they haven't gone as far as other vendors for this platform, but they clearly focus on fox bodies thru '04 models and haven't really attacked the newer stuff.

 

they have a good rep as far as I know for the older cars though!

[Kevin Patten]

 

 

I started working "under cars" for a living in 1973. Started racing Mustangs (auto-x) in 1976. Helped put over 50 champions on the podium in a variety of racing venues. Have interacted with several manufacturers with their products and developments (some are on their second generation). I will offer suggestions, share experiences, and help others but, I won't give out free product to people or ask for free stuff from vendors in exchange for pushing their products. Bad form LuLu as far as I'm concerned. If you haven't tried a watts linkage set up on your cars - you shouldn't push people away from the idea - just try to let those whom have tried it share their thoughts with those who want to know.

 

Just my .02

[89Saleen215]

Living in the PNW I've found that rear wheel drive vehicles can be fun when it rains. However, in my Fox I found that the rear would try to leave me going through intersections at speed. Then there is just trying to go around a corner without the rear doing it's thing...and pray the road is smooth. Once I added an IRS to my Fox all those issues were fixed...the car stayed planted.

 

My opinion of a watts link is that it's like a cheap IRS. It's a huge difference for every day driving...for me at least. For the GT500 I started down the path of using FRPP's suspension with MM's caster/camber plates and a Fays2 watts link set to 1 notch below center. Front bar set to the middle hole and removed rear bar. This did not have any negative effects on daily driving in rain or otherwise...it actually improved the car's ability to stay planted. After 3 track events it became clear the nose is heavy and the car has understeer. I talked to KB and others and it was suggested to make the front and rear roll centers the same height. So I purchased KB's extended shank tie-rod ends and Steeda's extended ball joints. These both are extended 3/4"...the same amount the FRPP springs lower the front end. This puts the front end back to the stock roll center height or close. I then did Laguna Seca this way and there was noticeable decrease in understeer...the car was much more neutral. I'm happy.

 

I'm a novice...just sharing my experience. I like the watts.

[LuLu]

I'd like to add to the maximum motorsports comments...

 

One thing that stands out, they do NOT offer a "maximum grip box" for the '05 and up cars. This tells me that they know that they don't have all the right parts for this chassis... I'm not sure why they haven't gone as far as other vendors for this platform, but they clearly focus on fox bodies thru '04 models and haven't really attacked the newer stuff.

 

they have a good rep as far as I know for the older cars though!

I had a '93 Fox Vert, and I asked basically the same question when I first started to mod my SGT. I was told by an MM tech that in HIS opinion, such structures were not necessary on the S197 framed cars. Being a relative newbie to the S197, I accepted that, and went on to purchase a Fays II Watts Link and some dumbshit ZM control arms, and I was pleased with my decisions. The rest of the story has been posted ^ there.

 

89Saleen215...I have a lot of seat time in the rare Fairmont Police Interceptor. Geeze, who ever thought a SBF and fat tires was the way to go in a Fairmont ought to get locked up! No...fugg that...make HIM drive a chase on state roads, even when dry, and let nature take its course. Not one of Ford's better ideas.

[LuLu]

 

 

I started working "under cars" for a living in 1973. Started racing Mustangs (auto-x) in 1976. Helped put over 50 champions on the podium in a variety of racing venues. Have interacted with several manufacturers with their products and developments (some are on their second generation). I will offer suggestions, share experiences, and help others but, I won't give out free product to people or ask for free stuff from vendors in exchange for pushing their products. Bad form LuLu as far as I'm concerned. If you haven't tried a watts linkage set up on your cars - you shouldn't push people away from the idea - just try to let those whom have tried it share their thoughts with those who want to know.

 

Just my .02

You tripped my trigger.

 

I am very disappointed in you, my friend. Apparently you suffer from the same disability as jmn444 and Mr. Haney. Please page back to my first post here, and see that from the very beginning, I clarified my position and relationship with Kenny Brown Performance, AND my experience with a Fays II Watts link, all PRIOR to the "Lucy" project.

 

It all took place as I explained ^ there. I have experienced driving an S197 with a Fays II Watts link in place, and stated so in my first post BEFORE anything came from Kenny Brown. Regarding the "Lucy" project, I paid for all fuel, food, housing, event and track access at the 50th Bash, it was not a politican's junket by no means. Shit, he didn't even pay for the film I exposed, but he got a set of prints. Seems to me that Kenny Brown bolted parts to my car, and I reported my findings at my greater expense. If that spells "paid for", so be it. You're dead wrong, but its your spelling bee. Bottom line: I like his stuff. I like how it performs, how it plants me in the seat, and in charge. KBP stuff challenges me, dares me to be bolder, take on more risk, up the ante. I did not get this, to this degree, from a Watts link.

 

I confess that I like Kenny's style, how he views, and values us, the end-users. I like his track-side training seminars, and his "heads up, hands on" manner of interacting with customers at large. Who else in this market does this? I like it when he invites Lucy out for a weekend. Responsible for damage yes, but I buy my own lunch. Kenny Brown has not, will not, and does not, build his reputation by slamming his competition in the market place. I have never seen it, neither will you. I only wish some of us would pick up on that. In the end, I owe him nothing. Likewise, he owes me not. Period. Deal with it.

 

My "props", as they may appear, to KBP are not squarely "this is the ONLY way" to take care of business, rather it was clearly stated as advice to others by means of visiting the KBP site and do some easy reading, watch a few short videos. My intention was to offer some assistance to those among us who may not grasp some of the terminology inherent in this topic, and gather explanations of more base principles of how suspension works, and do so undercover. Without someone saying "you don't know shit". NEVER, and I mean NEVER, would I, or do I declare anything automotive as the "only" way to accomplish a shared goal, this goal being full (or as much of) control of an automobile at high speed, and on a closed course. There is just too many valid options for the SGT owner to consider.

 

If your career started about 1973, my experience with cars began about 1966, age 14, when my father stuck an oil filter in my hand and pushed me under the family car. I was not allowed out until I found a place for that, and installed it correctly. BTW, back then, oil filters on older cars were contained in a can, with a long center bolt, cleaning or changing out just the filter element internal to the can. Those were the days.

 

My father did not want me to follow in his footsteps, he claimed the streets had grown much too violent and he was not going to bury me. By age 21, together, we owned a two bay, four pump Phillips 66 filling station. Back then, they were just that, selling gas with automatic (me) full service at the pump, and everybody got their oil checked, windows washed, and a lot of repairing automobiles. That meant repair everything, broken glass to engine/tranny rebuilds, one had to do it all. The "split" on gasoline was about 1 cent per gallon, but that was enough to pay the mortgage. The only sundries in the station was our own cream for our own coffee, and whatever pastry we could get down at the corner bakery. No beer/wine, no lottery, sandwiches, burittos, chips, and so on. Strip malls meant girls without clothing. Not "the good old days" just old days. It wasn't bad, but our bad luck that we sat kitty-corner from a police station.

 

Sadly, this was not to be the retirement haven my father sought. The income was not stable, and I did not like wondering if I was going to make ends meet without selling Amway soap products door to door on the side. I left this trade. In 1974, I joined the cops. We sold the business with a short but clean profit, and Dad was comfortable, financially speaking. At times, he hated me, or acted as if he did, when it looked like law enforcement was going to take my life. Can't say I blame him, this trade was about to turn upside down from violence and corruption. And turn it did. At times I wanted to run, anywhere, but there isn't a safe haven for cops who quit. Why am I posting this?

 

I'm not putting anything on you, my friend, you called it for what it appears. But, I have only one true treasure in life (as we all do) and that is my honor. I will not sell my honor, nor will I rest easy when someone steps on that. I am sure you feel likewise about yourself, at least this is the way I read you. I did not, and I will not, sell myself out. Not for anything, or anybody. Perhaps I didn't say it well in prior posts, and this is on me. However, I am stating this now, and clearly. My relationship with Kenny Brown is that of being a customer with a viewpoint, nothing more. Loyalty? Perhaps, but only because he has not failed me. I am guilty of liking his products, and his theory, about building sport suspension. From that point forward, you and I may disagree. Just like we could be at odds over power adders, disagree about style, but not about the value of forced induction. All I intended, was to point others to a location where they could learn the base shop talk, without the embarrassment of lacking some understanding of base principles.

 

I discovered it late in this discussion, but once I did, I posted a link to Maximum Motorsport's Q&A on caster/camber plates, which (like. KBP) also happens to push the benefits of their product along the way. You can see this ^ there. I have nothing from MM on my SGTs, what am I guilty of? If you say "advising/helping" others here, I plead guilty. If you think there is another underlying motive behind that, you watch too much television.

 

Albeit, Mr. Haney leaves me confused, but that is another post, another day.

 

Until then, y'all be safe.

[jmn444]

Disability eh?

 

I let it slide when it was a "habit"....

 

I think it's funny that you think I/We are "the bad guys" just because you can't back up your claims. Yes, YOUR claims, NOT Kenny's claims. I actually suspect he would know enough not to say you can tune out worn brakes with adjustable control arms lol. YOU are responsible for your comments and claims, not your buddy Kenny.

 

I like that KB supplying you with $5k worth of parts AND installing them doesn't mean you got it for free because you later bought more parts and he didn't pay for your vacation too..... I guess that's the kind of logic I can expect from you.

 

For the record, I don't even think your opinion is biased by the free stuff, I think your love for the parts is misdirected by the benefits of an installer that treated this as advertising and likely spent a LOT of time dialing in the car for you. Maybe you didn't answer for other reasons, so my apologies in advance if this assumption is incorrect, but when you don't even know your camber settings I find it hard to believe you managed to adjust that watts to get the most out of it. Add to that the fact that you didn't have any front modifications (at least none listed) to keep the car from pushing, and realistically the Watts could have even made the car much harder to rotate. Also, which car had the fays2? you said lucy was bone stock, and you had listed using a Lakewood Watts on Lulu before, which i'm sure is similar but looked to have less adjust-ability when i just googled it....

 

Lastly, the best part of this is I got to look into old threads to see what you maybe had said about your watts link experience and got the absolute pleasure of reading another time you got called out on your BS.

 

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php/topic/56336-word-on-the-street-is-that-lulu-has-new-found/?do=findComment&comment=961360

 

Now remind me which one of us has the "habit"????

[Kevin Patten]

Wow - did I miss a turn off here?

 

LuLu - did you pick MM because they are another manufacturer that does NOT have a watts linkage set up for the S197 and the bottom line here is that YOU DON'T CARE FOR A WATTS LINK SET UP OVER A PANHARD BAR SET UP - PERIOD - END OF OPINION.

 

You really did not need to go off into a tangent about Kenny Brown Performance like an infomercial and then hunt down another manufacturer in order to support your opinion.

You could of simply stated your opinion and shared WHY you felt a panhard bar is better than a watts.

 

PS - I was @ the 2012 50th Bash and was introduced to the drivers as a coaching source for those that felt the need.(I was the only one Cole asked to stand up @ the meeting) and we don't change people from one group to another because they are too fast - they can request for a change or if they can not seem to get along with others and someone complains about a driver we will have them change run groups so everyone gets a fair chance to have a good time.

[Mr. Haney]

Albeit, Mr. Haney leaves me confused, but that is another post, another day.

 

Until then, y'all be safe.

I leave you confused..........okay

 

What did I say or do that confuses you? Did you read the link another poster added to their reply about my experiences with KB and his products? Did you look at the pictures in that thread? What are your thoughts about the bent K-Member in the photos in that thread? As a retired LEO I'm sure that you understand why and how a photo is used to document evidence. What is the evidence of those photos?

 

 

My point is don't believe what the manufacturer is saying, because they only have one interest in mind.......to sell you product. You aren't looking at the complete picture of what modifications can be done to these cars. If you truly want to exercise your driving capabilities in a S197 chassis, throw the UCA, LCA 3 point rear suspension in the trash and put a torque arm on the car. Because you'll be able to plant your foot in the throttle much faster on corner exit and not worry about power oversteer or an unsettling bump that unloads the rear axle as you're sticking your foot to the floor. Trust me I've had both KB and Watts Link with a Torque arm under the car. I'll take the Torque arm any day of the week over what your saying is good.

 

Do your own research. Why? Because the comments you've made about KB leads me and I believe others into thinking that your a paid KB spokesperson. Not the average Joe off the street without an agenda. You write well and express yourself and thoughts very well, unfortunately for me I've already been down the road your own and found over the course of usage those products don't stand up to the test of time. Did KB bother to tell you he only designed the parts? But that he has licensed the product to be manufactured by another company. Did he bother to tell you that those problems in the thread that is linked in this one and how those pieces needed to be reengineered that he couldn't get the manufacturer to change one thing, yet they knew they were having parts failures. The only thing they are after is your money and have absolutely no customer service after a failure in the field. Heidts absolutely refuses to change one thing on their gigs for KB the last time I talked with him and could care less what parts you bend or break on your car. I highly suggest you crawl under your car regularly to inspect the K-Member in the areas of the photos posted in the link. I highly suggest you look at the relocation/lowering/passenger's side panhard rod mounting bracket for bending. I highly suggest you keep a close eye on the rear axle Upper Control Arm bracket. Otherwise you may wreck your car due to a parts failure that you didn't expect to have happen while having fun in a curve. These parts have been failing on cars that are used for both HPDEs and racing, since you are using your car in this fashion, keep your eyes open for them. Especially since you're both street driving and tracking this car. I'd hate to see you having fun on an on-ramp and eat a guard rail or worse an innocent person

[LuLu]

You know what, gents? Y'all are dog piling me. There is no way I can answer all of your questions or respond to all of your remarks. Y'all are just goofy, and why? Because I think something different than you? There are words for that, one of them is "bully", but I'm banking on one simple thing, one simple element of human nature. People are smarter than y'all think, and y'all are not getting over on them. Y'all did more damage to yourselves, than to me. Everyone who reads this, will learn more about each of you than anyone could ever tell them. That's why it called a dog pile. If I'm the pile, who are you?

 

Every time y'all do this, the fun dies. It ain't fun for anyone here anymore, and others wont like that. Others stand back in awe of what you do, and a few get scared too. Feeling lucky it's me and not them. Well, not this time anyway. No worries, I'll be around. You never know where I'll pop up next. At least, I have my honor intact. Everything I posted here was the truth, and none of you can refute one word of that. You can pull it apart, kick it around, beat on it, but it still the truth. I told the truth (save a typo here and there) and you cannot change that.

 

Albino...you consider yourself a professional, but how did you act here? Professional? I think not. Hell, I can't recall anyone's name from three years ago. But you expect me too. The change in classes at Spring Moutain did in fact occur and exactly as I described. Sorry I can't drop a name today. You wonder why I linked MM into the thread, and I already stated why. But, one last try...Because they have a great Q&A on caster/camber plates, and I thought it would be helpful, but I already explained all of that. You make of it what you will, but my explanation stands. Because it's the truth. Every word. And you cannot refute that. I am sure you have many, many fans because of your pinned race car thread. I read it, I was impressed. Very impressed. Not any more, and I am sure a few others out here may agree with me. You may be nifty hot shot to some, but you are not a professional. Not any more. Never again. And this too, is the truth.

 

Jmn444...Gawd, where do I begin. I stated early on, that I know your style, how you work it. You are smooth at first, just asking a few easy questions before you begin twisting the simple answers. You continue right now, claiming that I made outrageous claims that no one in their right mind would say. It works for you because you are smart enough to NOT quote the statement, just turn it upside down and inside out. While/when the victim of your attack tries to correct you, it gets twisted again.

 

You bank on folks not paging back to find the actual, correct statement, and sadly, sometimes this works. But the bottom line is that you cannot quote the statement because it was never said. Soon, I expect to see more screen names jumping in, the "one post" wonders claiming to be a national champ of something somewhere, and they get at it, and the dog pile gets bigger, while you sneak away. Seen it before, thanks for the link to the last time you got me. OH...BTW, got something here, the correct dyno report from your last attack. It's dated 20 April, 2010. 725.23 RWHP, 622.64 RWTQ and 21.84 PSI of boost at 7500 RPM. This was after the retune I spoke about in that thread, before you called the dog pile out. And another thing, it is correctly a Fays II Watts link, and Lakewood traction bars, got it? My bad. I think, at least for the smart people here, your rep is toast now. Despite this, you will try something more, but take my word for it, you won't be respected by anyone here, jus feard. Maybe that works for you, but fear isnt my style. Post what you want, you're a wannabe from the start. Grow up, my friend. The world is real, this is just a bunch of electrons. I've had way better dudes on my case than you. They learned, you will too.

 

Mr. Haney...you are too funny! And it's jmn444 we have to thank for the chuckles. He posted a link to page 3 of a thread somewhere here, to make a point about Kenny Brown. As if to say "hey, everyone, look at this guy's pain from KBP". The smart folks here, went back to page 1.

 

Are you over it yet? The love affair YOU had with KBP? Its too funny, how you bitched and moaned about stuff you were deeply in love with just a few posts earlier. You want to talk about me? OMG! Who the fugg are you to say/ask anything about me at all? You are looney, or maybe strung out on the meds usually prescribed for back injuries? Don't know...and really do not care. Truthfully, you are not worth the words I just typed. Get lost dude, go away. And I am glad KBP gave you a refund, because now you have nothing to cry about. And I know the full story about KBP, Heidts, Alston, and the whole truth. You are way lost, someone has been feeding you a lot of crap. Loser. Big time.

 

Okay...call out the dogs, let's get busy. I'll take question from legit people, not low posters here for the drama. Surely, not these 3.

[jmn444]

The KBP kit is not a "fixed in place" control system. There are seven (7) high quality race-end Heims Joints in that structure, and you can explore endless combinations to get the best handling possible, as well as the best results possible from supporting structures i.e. brake and tire compounds of your choice. You want a "balanced" car, everything working together for maximum control. But, if you do not favor a newly installed brake pad, your tire adhesion is ageing and slipping away, your climate has changed, or, what ever the case...You can get what works best by dialing around your disappointment until something better comes along. This feature defines "adjustability".

 

I don't quote because it wastes space and I ASSUMED you were smart enough to know what you typed. This states you can dial around a brake pad with the control arms.

 

The problem is that you never really answer anything at all. So one more time, HOW do you adjust the rear control arms to compensate for the brakes????

 

Funny how you started out with 8psi, then 18psi, and now 21.84. At least you finally post a number that makes sense for the power levels you claim.

[2007_Shelby_GT]

Meanwhile, back to the original post, with regards to the Watts link and experiences: I drive a quite few roads that have valleys created by the numerous log trucks roaming the area, some are almost like slot-car tracks where you can drive hands free! Anyway, I found that with the panhard bar, whenever I pulled out to pass slower vehicles and my car stepped across these valleys, it felt like the rearend was lifting and getting loose - it made for a few heart-stopping moments! After a little research, I pulled the panhard and went to the Watts link, I tried the same roads and the same manuevers and the rearend stayed planted, no more floaty feel! I'm a novice at the track, so I can't give any real data there, but it certainly improved my daily driving experience!

 

Now back to the original argument, already in progress...

 

Sam

[jmn444]

LOL!

[LuLu]

Meanwhile, back to the original post, with regards to the Watts link and experiences: I drive a quite few roads that have valleys created by the numerous log trucks roaming the area, some are almost like slot-car tracks where you can drive hands free! Anyway, I found that with the panhard bar, whenever I pulled out to pass slower vehicles and my car stepped across these valleys, it felt like the rearend was lifting and getting loose - it made for a few heart-stopping moments! After a little research, I pulled the panhard and went to the Watts link, I tried the same roads and the same manuevers and the rearend stayed planted, no more floaty feel! I'm a novice at the track, so I can't give any real data there, but it certainly improved my daily driving experience!

 

Now back to the original argument, already in progress...

 

Sam

Good for you, Sam, really. Tried the Watts Link, found something that works better for me.

 

I apologize for the distraction here, Overall and specific to the OP query. I did try to help with addressing it by including links to other sites where 411 could be gathered by those who wanted to learn. Though I do not employ them, caster/ camber plates were strongly suggested by another member, and I thought the link helpful. Before linking, I read through the content to be sure this was the best source of 411 for us all, and I felt reassured by that. The content sounds solid, my intent was to be truthful, thus the link. The chatter that followed about my intent only contributed to the underlying nonsense. I am sorry about this too, but again, I could not stop it. It came from out of nowhere, from a source I never expected. I have learned something here too.

 

jmn444...at least you came back to the truth, thank you. I'll give it one more try.

 

This post was meant to correct the claim that KBP's rear grip kit was a "fixed" solution. It is not. "Adjustability" means you can dial into what settings work best for you "whatever" your need or disappointment may be. All the critical contact points are race grade Heims Joints, allowing changes in length and angle as necessary. IF someone has something buggy in the back end, "whatever" that cause may be (sorry I did not include seven year Locust) the "adjustability" of the KBP system will help identify that which may bug you, and possibly remove it for the short term while long term solutions are set into motion. Being that they are the two most important systems at hand, and working hand-in-hand for you, you may suspect brake or tire efficiency. You can dial into, or, around symptoms to help rule out suspect causes.

 

This requires a certain level of intimacy some SGT owners may not welcome. Average mechanical skill, even skill you may have to hire out, will not be shy of this system very long. I have taken Lucy to the neighborhood shop and the wrench, a nice guy in his '60s, understood what he was looking at within 10 minutes of his first peek. The KBP rear grip kit is no real mystery. It's not magical. And surely, nothing to be threatened by. I want what is best for the SGT owner, it's only right they get the chance, without ridicule, to decide what is best for them.

 

I think the way I wrote it the first time was sufficient to explain my meaning. However, impatient as you are, Jason, you asked a ridiculous question, and my reply was cut short by another ridiculous question. You blew things so out of proportion, there could not be a correct answer for you. Anything I posted, would have been pronounced bullshit at the instant, while you dig into another twisted question. This is your style, I've seen it before, and on this site. Seems you have had so much fun slapping folks around, you don't understand what an asset you could be. Not until you stop, will you ever know. Sorry I could not further accommodate your request for attention.

 

So, where is Wheeler? I miss him.

[IASHELBYGT]

As Sam said. I put on a Watts Link last year and really like the difference of feeling more "planted"

 

Regarding the other comments on here - I respect all of your opinions and technical knowledge. Knowledge that I learn from and appreciate. But quite frankly guys you wear meet out with all the back and forth bickering and one upsmanship. Just my .02

[2007_Shelby_GT]

LuLu: "Tried the Watts Link, found something that works better for me"

 

Sums it up nicely, what works for you doesn't necessarily work for me! To paraphrase Manfred Von Richthofen, (The Red Baron), "it ain't the crate, it's the pilot!"

 

I'm just glad I have a Shelby! Happy motoring everyone!

 

Sam

[39Mustang]

A Watts link should be considered a "must-have" mod for these cars, regardless of power or application. The Shelby/Fays2 is my favorite, and yields an imediate improvement in the car's handling, at ANY speed.

 

Highly recommended.

 

 

Jer

I have to disagree 100 percent! Unless you are going to race the car even for fun then the Watts-link is overkill. Unless your Shelby is supercharged with at least 500hp then the Watts-link is overkill. However, if have money to burn then by all means go for it because then its there when you might need it but its not a must have all

 

My 08 GT/SC with full Griggs suspension minus the Watts-link and with more HP than you think lol I have never needed it. With the Griggs and the Pilot Super Sports 2 the car is like peanut butter

[Jer]

I'm happy to agree to disagree.

 

 

 

Have a great day,

 

 

Jer

[jmn444]

I have to disagree 100 percent! Unless you are going to race the car even for fun then the Watts-link is overkill. Unless your Shelby is supercharged with at least 500hp then the Watts-link is overkill. However, if have money to burn then by all means go for it because then its there when you might need it but its not a must have all

 

My 08 GT/SC with full Griggs suspension minus the Watts-link and with more HP than you think lol I have never needed it. With the Griggs and the Pilot Super Sports 2 the car is like peanut butter

 

I promise to be nice

 

Is grigg's panhard adjustable for roll center? it doesn't look like it in the pics, just curious though. I'd really like to try a torque arm setup someday....

[FormerGmc]

deleted

[jmn444]

Jmn444...Gawd, where do I begin. I stated early on, that I know your style, how you work it. You are smooth at first, just asking a few easy questions before you begin twisting the simple answers. You continue right now, claiming that I made outrageous claims that no one in their right mind would say. It works for you because you are smart enough to NOT quote the statement, just turn it upside down and inside out. While/when the victim of your attack tries to correct you, it gets twisted again.

 

You bank on folks not paging back to find the actual, correct statement, and sadly, sometimes this works. But the bottom line is that you cannot quote the statement because it was never said. Soon, I expect to see more screen names jumping in, the "one post" wonders claiming to be a national champ of something somewhere, and they get at it, and the dog pile gets bigger, while you sneak away. Seen it before, thanks for the link to the last time you got me. OH...BTW, got something here, the correct dyno report from your last attack. It's dated 20 April, 2010. 725.23 RWHP, 622.64 RWTQ and 21.84 PSI of boost at 7500 RPM. This was after the retune I spoke about in that thread, before you called the dog pile out. And another thing, it is correctly a Fays II Watts link, and Lakewood traction bars, got it? My bad. I think, at least for the smart people here, your rep is toast now. Despite this, you will try something more, but take my word for it, you won't be respected by anyone here, jus feard. Maybe that works for you, but fear isnt my style. Post what you want, you're a wannabe from the start. Grow up, my friend. The world is real, this is just a bunch of electrons. I've had way better dudes on my case than you. They learned, you will too.

 

 

I tried to PM a couple people on this thread, but inboxes are full or turned off so I'll just put this out there for anyone reading:

 

PLEASE PM me if any of you have the same feelings as Mr. Lulu about my style, habit, disability, whatever you want to call it.... I don't intend to come off that way, so I'd like some feedback if that's the actual case. Hell, let me know if you think he's wrong too, either way at least I'll know if I should be changing my approach in general on here or not.

 

Lulu, I had nothing to do with the dogpile then or now, maybe you should re-read that old thread, I asked ONE question, and like here, got no valid response. Aside from that, I asked another fellow for pics of his car with wheels I liked, and also (believe it or not) told others that they didn't have to be mean about any of it. Yet somehow I'm responsible for that thread?

[jmn444]

This post was meant to correct the claim that KBP's rear grip kit was a "fixed" solution. It is not. "Adjustability" means you can dial into what settings work best for you "whatever" your need or disappointment may be. All the critical contact points are race grade Heims Joints, allowing changes in length and angle as necessary. IF someone has something buggy in the back end, "whatever" that cause may be (sorry I did not include seven year Locust) the "adjustability" of the KBP system will help identify that which may bug you, and possibly remove it for the short term while long term solutions are set into motion. Being that they are the two most important systems at hand, and working hand-in-hand for you, you may suspect brake or tire efficiency. You can dial into, or, around symptoms to help rule out suspect causes.

 

 

Thanks for trying again, I guess this doesn't really answer my question though, it still sounds as if you mean that it can be adjusted to compensate for things like brakes and tires, but IF that is what you are saying, I'm asking HOW those adjustments are made.

 

I want to know what changes you would actually make, like for example, if my tires are worn, would I shorten the lower control arms or lengthen them? How would that change help me identify the problem or possibly solve it?

[LuLu]

jmn444;

 

I see that old habits die hard. I believe we have taken more away from the OPs question than we have contributed. I am not comfortable with my participation in that. I type too much, take the long way around the barn. I will work on repairs. Apologies are due to all, please accept mine. Thus, I choose to not continue this exchange, you may consider my decision your victory.

 

Carry on gents, y'all be safe.

[Kevin Patten]

Okay, enough of the dancing - lets get down to what this is all about - vehicle handling. SGT owners have a lower ride height (and higher spring rates) than a Mustang GT, a 35mm - 3 way adjustable front sway bar, a fixed 22mm rear sway bar, fixed struts/shocks, a pan hard bar, equal size tires, and equal size wheels with the same offsets along with a strut tower brace.

 

Am I leaving anything else?

 

So, since our cars have front understeer to begin with (as per government regulation) let's look at what we can do with what we have. For understeer (car pushes) we could benefit by starting with softening the front sway bar setting, or change tire pressures based upon temperature readings, then go to increasing front negative camber (strut crash bolt or adjustable caster/camber plates would need to be bought), as would increasing positive caster, you can also go with more toe out in the front (effects corner entry/steering response and may cause straight ahead instability and increased inner tire wear). That pretty much covers the front - as far as changes in the rear of the vehicle the only things that we have to work with are raising the rear ride height with adding shims under the stock spring pads and/or changing tire pressures.

 

If you find yourself with oversteer (car gets loose in the rear) find a way to lower the rear of the vehicle, change tire pressures as per temperatures, stiffen front sway bar, raise the front ride height with adding shims in the front, go more positive (less negative) in camber or less positive with caster (here again you will need to buy c/c plates or slot the holes at the rear of the front lower control arms in the brackets of the rear bushings or in the sub frame itself.

 

If your symptom is that you have excessive brake dive but your cornering perfect then you are faced with making other types of changes like increasing anti-dive which is done by either lowering the forward front lower control arm chassis pivot point or raising the rearward pivot point or you can go to an adjustable shock and increase the rebound force of the rear shocks (this will slow weight transfer to the front tires) or buy new springs which have a higher front spring rate while having a rear spring rate the same as stock.

 

Now if the vehicle feels harsh under braking like the springs are too stiff and braking decreases drastically on rough or bumpy roads then you need to DECREASE anti-dive which is done by either raising the forward front lower control arm chassis pivot point or lowering the rearward pivot point or buy some adjustable shocks and soften the rebound force of the rear shocks or buy some OEM Mustang GT front springs.

 

A stiffer vehicle will generate higher tire temperatures. If tire temperature readings show overheating then a softer spring package or lower roll center may be needed.

 

With the SGT pan hard bar the axle pivot is on the left (driver) side and the frame pivot is on the right (passenger) side and is not level. So if we understand that when we go through a left turn the body rolls and the axle stays pretty much level (except sidewall flex) as the body mount drops on the right side the pan hard frame mount location drops and the roll center in the rear lowers. On a right turn the left side of the vehicle goes down but since the mount for the pan hard bar on the left side is on the axle it basically stays at the same roll center. The roll center is not always set at the center of the vehicle and moves side to side and is referred to as at the axle centerline lengthwise. The benefit of going to a watts linkage set up is that the bar is basically split in half and has a propeller shaft thus making a design with opposing equal arch verses a single arch which is found on a pan hard bar set up. This allows the axle to stay centered to the vehicle as the suspension goes through it's travel.

 

If we want to address issues like understeer/oversteer with the aid of changing roll centers then we need to have adjustability. Most watts linkage systems are adjustable - some more than others. Pan hard bars are usually in a fixed position but some manufacturers offer a bracket set to make it possible to change. To address understeer you would raise the rear roll center(raise the watts pivot point) and for oversteer lower the rear roll center(lower the watts pivot or use brackets to lower the panhard bar -try to keep it level).

 

comments?