LuLu Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I type too much and I need to fix that. I also need to fix my earlier statement regarding fluid crossover. The caliper community is shifting in that direction, my Wilwood calipers are internal. However, I distracted from the focus here, and I apologize. Carry on Gents, be safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Tell you what, Gents, invest in some improved/SS braided brake lines, flush the present fluid and top off with some clean DOT4, and add a set of say...Hawk, or, EBC pads, and you will feel a world of improvement. Drive on that while you search out the upgrade best suited for your driving style. It will be money well spent, especially if your SGT is shared with family. A note on fluids...DOT3 and DOT4 fluids will absorb moisture and carry that away from the calipers. Left alone, eventually the fluid becomes waterborne, or diluted. It will boil quicker and lead to corrosion inside places you won't see by mere inspection. Usually the first to go, are the rear brake lines. DOT5, 5.1 and 5.2 are full synethetics which will push moisture back into the reservoir, but don't play well with ABS systems. I would avoid them, a use DOT4. Just my .O2c, carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HARALD KELLEY Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 LuLu, nice to see your back. Enjoyed some of your insight back in the day. Carry on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19again Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yes I agree with you Harald its good to see LuLu back. We sure did miss his insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Just wondering... If this Brembo reman caliper becomes a viable option for us, what/which rotor would we need to use? I do not think the stock SGT (Mustang GT) stuff would fit correctly. This caliper is a repair/replacement item, yes? Bare bones, and other components need to be present and correct. What are the specs for those items? What else may be necessary to upgrade? If we have to go shopping, we have many choices in very affordable cost ranges. Powerstop, DBA (I have used often, great "bang for buck" ratio), OEM Ford GT500, and so on. See where I am going? When you break down the components of the average "big brake" kits, seems to me that rotors cost more than half (or damn near) that of the whole cost. I recall some 411 from my last adventure in brakes and rotor material (construction) was a factor over caliper (# of pots, material, piston material, etc...) construction features. If we have to scrounge around for the rest, do we really save any money? BTW...because of this thread, I had a chance to review "plastic", or phenolic piston construction, and I was reminded that phenolics are very durable, and used for a lot of things we don't often think about. Billiard balls and shift knobs come to mind, stuff with endless shefl life. Bushings, stops, guides and pivots, see? A lot of stuff we think is "nylon" by appearance are phenolics, and make sense for OEM applications, offering the best bridge over durability and longevity, while cost effective too. When building for the masses, everything is important. A brake failure can end the life of an entire line of automobiles. A solution for systems that may be driven hard once in a long while, or sit idle for greater than normal stretches in time. Phenolics resist corrosion, but are poor at resisting heat transfer, which (eventually) leads to increased internal moisture. This is why fluids need to be refreshed as part of a regular maintence program. Moreover, some phenolic recipes include fractions of steel, iron, and other ferrous materials and just like some recipes for aluminum, may pass the "magnet" test. I said earlier in this thread that I found metal pistons in my OEM calipers. I believe now that I can not be that sure anymore. At least until I get my hands some OEM stuff. If any of y'all open up a OEM caliper in the near future, throw a magnet at 'em and tell us what happened? If they are trash, take a hacksaw to 'em and tell us what you find? I'm... Just wondering. Y'all be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revan Posted February 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I imagine if one were to use these calipers on their SGT (or any 05-09 4.6 for that matter) then you'd need to get rotors that are compatible with that caliper. I imagine rotor flagged for an 07-09 GT500 would fit the bill so long as it's listed as compatible with the stock calipers for that car. About the only other thing I can think of would be if the mounting point is different on a GT500 than on a 4.6 based car? Interesting info on phenolics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarb169 Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Before i upgraded to my 20" Shelby CS69's, i upgraded my brake lines to SS, put in Dot 4 fluid, added Hawk HPS pads, and replaced my rotors with Baer Decelarotors. Maybe cost $250 to $300. Definite upgrade over stock. Doesn't mean I am not wanting the Wilwood big brake kit... just can't pull the trigger on $2k for a daily driver. After looking at the painted calipers with lettering on them, i am leaning towards that project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 The Brembos on this thread are not repair/replacement items for SGT's. They are specific to the cars that came with the same Brembo caliper GT500's etc. To convert these to your SGT, you would need replacement GT500 rotors, which you can get very reasonably from many sources. Of course you can spend a bunch on aftermarket rotors. Just using these calipers with stock GT500 rotors will be a very good upgrade. The beauty of the s197 chassis is that the spindle is the same. You can directly bolt the GT500 rotor and caliper to the same spindle. That is what I did with my GTH many years ago and upgraded to stainless lines. As mentioned earlier, these will also not fit with your stock SGT wheels. You must upgrade your wheels to ones that will fit with big brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITHERTZ66 Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 This looks very reasonable to me and just like the OEM rotors, except the hats are black (which is a good thing to me). I very much doubt theFord OEM ones are any better. http://www.amazon.com/Raybestos-680497-Advanced-Technology-Brake/dp/B005IV5A88/ref=pd_rhf_dp_p_img_5 What I'm not sure about is if the larger GT500 dust shields need to be used at all on a street car and/or if the smaller original 13" ones will fit or still provide benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 What I'm not sure about is if the larger GT500 dust shields need to be used at all on a street car and/or if the smaller original 13" ones will fit or still provide benefit. Good question. I did add the GT500 dust shields. I forgot about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrKSGT Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 This pic shows the Cardone part above and the Brenbo below. Obviously the same casting. Curiously, the location of the bleeders and lack of crossover tube. Wonder how to verify if it's internal? Had a discussion today with a Brembo person I compete with in customer service. She warned me about any caliper resembling the Brembo brakes used on the GT500. They are having extreme issues with cloned parts from other countries. These Cardone may be legitimate but, complaints they get for shoddy look alike has come back to haunt them in their warranty. These clones do NOT take all the precautions that is being built into the production calipers. Poor iron, porosity, and inclusions can disable the caliper and cause big problems. Relative to the external cross over tube in the Brembo caliper, they are not serviceable. Another item in production is the pressure test conducted when caliper is complete to be sure there is no leak present. Attempts to service usually results in weakening the thread integrity and could result in break down of the joint. It is an aluminum body accepting a tube nut. Either over torqued or tubing getting skewed alignment can manifest itself in a leak. I prefer to use OE or products from companies known to have been well established in the market. Prefer to pay some more to know the reliability has been built in. I upgraded my SGT with GT500 take off set and stainless steel hoses. The increase in Rotor diameter was biggest factor to improve feel of the brakes on the car. I have Hawk pads I will use when I finally decide track day is needed. I did have to give up the Bullet wheels for a design that would accept the fixed Brembo caliper design. Net is I am happy with results. DrKSGT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 I'm reading lots of good 411 and feedback here. Thanks, y'all. A note on powder coating, brief but important for us to understand. Powdercoating adds a layer of durable paint over the surface of the item coated. This changes clearances and tolerances. This portion of the coating must be removed or stuff just doesn't fit properly, or as it should. Where pressurized surfaces meet, a leak could result if the coating isn't removed. Depending on the parts involved, it can be a big headache. I have spent hours tweaking away with a Dremel tool and chasing threads with a die to get stuff right. Total pain in the butt, really. Also be wary of aluminum surfaces that are "chrome plated". It is very difficult to lay down show chrome on aluminum. It can be done, but it is a three layer process that takes time, and you will pay for the time. But some try to sell it anyway, and a great example of this occurs when owners are looking for chrome plated valve/cam covers. Yes, they are bright and shinny, but it's not actual chrome plating as applied in the traditional art, but a powdercoating material known as "americhrome". It's good looking stuff, but if you know show chrome, it's just not the same. Like good black paint, it's not "deep" enough. Moreover, heat makes it soft, and I've seen a few owners drive 50 or so miles on a summer day to put their car on display, and when they went to wipe down the road dust, the microfiber towel scratched the surface. Over a period of time, the "chrome plating" was shot and they had to try it again. The FRPP catalogue is very honest about this. They identify where americhrome powdercoating is used, such as the M-6582-C543V 3V valve/cam covers. Not every vendor is this honest. This is true "buyer beware" territory. Y'all be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank S Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 The Shelby GT rims are the same as the GT/CS (California Special), if I'm not mistaken. According to this article, with one-inch H&R-style bolt-on spacers they will fit over the GT500 brakes if you cut five millimeters off the ends of the wheel studs. The cutting is necessary because of interference between the original lug- bolts and the wheel. Ford's "Fanblade" wheels have voids where that interference occurs, so they don't require any cutting of bolts. Those spacers are much less expensive outside the H&R catalog. I had the GT500 brakes (and wheels) on my 2009 GT/CS. Very satisfying. I also had a set of the Fanblade wheels and H&R spacers. Also very satisfying. I reckon if I ever decide to upgrade the standard GT brakes on my 2014, I'll find another set of GT500 take-offs and do that again. With Hawk HPS pads they worked good for street and occasional track and autocross days, without having to change pads back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 The Brembos on this thread are not repair/replacement items for SGT's. They are specific to the cars that came with the same Brembo caliper GT500's etc. To convert these to your SGT, you would need replacement GT500 rotors, which you can get very reasonably from many sources. Of course you can spend a bunch on aftermarket rotors. Just using these calipers with stock GT500 rotors will be a very good upgrade. The beauty of the s197 chassis is that the spindle is the same. You can directly bolt the GT500 rotor and caliper to the same spindle. That is what I did with my GTH many years ago and upgraded to stainless lines. As mentioned earlier, these will also not fit with your stock SGT wheels. You must upgrade your wheels to ones that will fit with big brakes. Exactly, and you might add that it is recommended that if you do go with the GT500/Brembo 4 piston caliper up front you need to replace the brake booster in order to maintain the pedal feel. I put the GT500 front brake setup on a Mustang GT with the fanblade wheels on it and had to use Baer's .250" wheel spacers to get them to clear the calipers. The front brake hoses are different between the stock GT and the GT500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
americaniron Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 When I did my GT500 Brembo brake conversion I got my dust shields from the local dealer. I paid $23 for both of them. The link I am providing is more expensive, but I put it here just as an example. I didn't change my brake booster either, and it feels just fine. I did buy SS braided lines, and used Hawk HPS pads on all four corners. I tossed my rotors to the local scrap yard, and went with some DBA's that I got for a great price. I did have to use different wheels though. The ones on my sig pic are no longer on the car, and I went with some TSW's recently. http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/item/LRS-2004AA/07-10-Mustang-Gt500-Front-Brake-Dust-Shield-Rh-Lh This company has replacement Brembo brake decals, and I can attest that they are of great quality. I have had mine on for years, and they still look great. They will also make the brake decals in almost any color you like. I hope this helps. http://www.xenonmods.com/decalindex.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrKSGT Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Exactly, and you might add that it is recommended that if you do go with the GT500/Brembo 4 piston caliper up front you need to replace the brake booster in order to maintain the pedal feel. I put the GT500 front brake setup on a Mustang GT with the fanblade wheels on it and had to use Baer's .250" wheel spacers to get them to clear the calipers. The front brake hoses are different between the stock GT and the GT500.Booster and master cylinder do not need to be replaced to put the GT500 Brembo's on. My fiend in the Ford brake department confirmed that SGT and GT500 were using the same unit. Brake system sizing is done as combination of caliper piston sizes front and rear as a ratio to the master cylinder and the mechanical ratio of the brake pedal. The four pot Brembo calipers were sized to use same amount of fluid as the twin pot slider on the GT Mustang giving same amount of travel for an applied pressure. The gain in feel is made better due to the 1" larger rotor diameter giving about 15% lower fluid requirement to get same pressure to preform any given deceleration. Feels shorter and more responsive. Friction level in Hawk pads is higher and that results in less pressure too for given deceleration rates you desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 Might want to check out "Latemodel Restoration" in the brake booster section. Part #s are the same as far as the master cylinder goes but the booster #'s are different between the SGT and the GT500 and there was a change made to both in late 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledfoot73 Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 It would be interesting to put a call in to Ford Racing about the brake booster. The thing that I am curious about and could be the reason for a different booster would be the added weight over the front with the GT500 vs the GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted February 20, 2015 Report Share Posted February 20, 2015 While you @ it you may as well ask about the difference in the ABS modules too. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKurgan Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 Had a discussion today with a Brembo person I compete with in customer service. She warned me about any caliper resembling the Brembo brakes used on the GT500. They are having extreme issues with cloned parts from other countries. These Cardone may be legitimate but, complaints they get for shoddy look alike has come back to haunt them in their warranty. These clones do NOT take all the precautions that is being built into the production calipers. Poor iron, porosity, and inclusions can disable the caliper and cause big problems. Relative to the external cross over tube in the Brembo caliper, they are not serviceable. Another item in production is the pressure test conducted when caliper is complete to be sure there is no leak present. Attempts to service usually results in weakening the thread integrity and could result in break down of the joint. It is an aluminum body accepting a tube nut. Either over torqued or tubing getting skewed alignment can manifest itself in a leak. I prefer to use OE or products from companies known to have been well established in the market. Prefer to pay some more to know the reliability has been built in. I upgraded my SGT with GT500 take off set and stainless steel hoses. The increase in Rotor diameter was biggest factor to improve feel of the brakes on the car. I have Hawk pads I will use when I finally decide track day is needed. I did have to give up the Bullet wheels for a design that would accept the fixed Brembo caliper design. Net is I am happy with results. DrKSGT Thank you for sharing that information. I was concerned with the quality being that they are clones. Don't know the price now, but about 5 years ago when I got my Brembo's, I paid ~$800 so these at $100 kind of scare me. Also the brake booster is absolutely not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 I'll just say this - refer back to post #32 by LuLu and don't bother with all the other mods that got brought into this thread and save your money. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 I'll just say this - refer back to post #32 by LuLu and don't bother with all the other mods that got brought into this thread and save your money. JMOMaybe I can save y'all a few steps, and repeat my advice. Replace the following components with selection I suggest. You will love the feel. Replace OEM rotors with slotted rotors, same size, from DBA. You can get crossed drilled, but its just decoration. No real/practical purpose, just less rotor to bite into. Replace OEM pads with EBC Yellow stuff pads, OEM size. Dusty, but worth it. Replace OEM brake lines with braided SS from Goodrich. Flush and replace OEM brake fluid with high temp DOT4, supplier of your choice. I prefer ATE SL-6. It's DOT4.6, boiling point 509f, wet 347f. It's German stuff but available here. Blue 1L can, yellow cap. Flush completely, thoroughly. Old fluid will contaminate the new and greatly degrade performance. While you have this stuff broken down, feel free to decorate the calipers to your delight. Don't do that while on the car. I have used this formula six times on my cars, twice that on friends and relatives. Sorry, don't mean to sound like a school teacher, but I drive on this stuff myself, and my Marauder weighs 4700 pounds. The 75/80 highway MPH to zero factor can be frightening. It's RIGHT NOW stuff and performance of these suggestions is outstanding. This stuff will endure lots of track time in a S197 frame car if you're just doing laps. Sorry about the high dust, but Dawn soap makes short work of it. When you get more serious, a full upgrade is the ticket. I like the Wilwood stuff. This program is very inexpensive with a lot of payback. Save your pennies for the upgrade, and drive safely on my suggestions until then. Remember, family members may be behind the wheel. Don't sell them short. Y'all be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrKSGT Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 While you @ it you may as well ask about the difference in the ABS modules too. JMOBefore I did my SGT upgrade to the GT500 front brakes I asked a friend at the company providing the ABS system for the S197. Basic module that your brake lines go to is the same unit but there can be different numbers for the calibrations within the software. His recommendation through his Ford team members was not to worry about the calibration differences. Very minor items differed for my mid April to early November operation of the vehicle. Really cold weather on ice might have just little more trouble. Having same rear brakes between the SGT/GT and GT 500's will have same reactions going to the rear as rear axle weights are very close for ABS tuning. ABS system has become the proportioning controls to the rear brakes. With near same mass and limitation that tire traction contributes,it decides what is required to keep rear wheels staying behind the front. DrKSGT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted February 22, 2015 Report Share Posted February 22, 2015 So, since I race a SGT I'll tell you what we run - on the front it's the required Stoptech STR trophy 4 piston (355MM x 35MM rotor) big brake kit, Full Tilt Boogie 13" rear brakes, FR500C master cylinder and brake booster, FRPP M-5323-A module, stainless brake hoses front and rear, Endless brake fluid, and Raybestos Racing ST-43 brake pads front and rear. At some tracks we'll run the ST-45 pads on the front. As far as ducting goes - we run an air box behind the openings in the front fascia into 3" hoses going to the front brakes. Also the car has a support brace from the master cylinder to the strut tower to keep the unit from flexing. For folks wanting more for the street but not wanting to have to change wheels I'd suggest some Powerslot slotted rotors, Hawk HPS pads front and rear, some DOT SS brake hoses, Endless brake fluid and some front brake ducting of sort. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avoeltz Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 I installed Baer decelarotors and pads along with the brake cooling duct kit and they work great on track day for under $1,000 behind my stock wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 For folks wanting more for the street but not wanting to have to change wheels I'd suggest some Powerslot slotted rotors, Hawk HPS pads front and rear, some DOT SS brake hoses, Endless brake fluid and some front brake ducting of sort. JMONot much different from my plan, and a good place for anyone wanting a bit more reassurance on the street, to begin. For that purpose, the ducting seems a tad overkill, but this will payoff if someone wants to dip into occasional track time. Thanks! Y'all be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revan Posted March 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Lots of great info here guys! I missed one of the SSBC offerings. 4 Piston setup but seems the calipers are more compact to possible fit where the brembos wouldn't - http://ssbrakes.com/i-10093003-disc-brake-kit-front-4-piston-comp-r-wheel-kit-only-pair.html Forgive my ignorance but what do the "competition series" and "wheel kit only" mean? I filtered the list by 07 mustang on their site and these came up with the other offerings I've mentioned previously. Says 15" of larger wheel needed to clear them. Only time I've seen 15" wheels on a s197 is in drag setups, so I'm wondering if maybe this is a kit geared toward drag strip usage? (one huge massive stop at the end, rather than repeated stops like on a road course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuLu Posted March 4, 2015 Report Share Posted March 4, 2015 Lots of great info here guys! I missed one of the SSBC offerings. 4 Piston setup but seems the calipers are more compact to possible fit where the brembos wouldn't - http://ssbrakes.com/i-10093003-disc-brake-kit-front-4-piston-comp-r-wheel-kit-only-pair.html Forgive my ignorance but what do the "competition series" and "wheel kit only" mean? I filtered the list by 07 mustang on their site and these came up with the other offerings I've mentioned previously. Says 15" of larger wheel needed to clear them. Only time I've seen 15" wheels on a s197 is in drag setups, so I'm wondering if maybe this is a kit geared toward drag strip usage? (one huge massive stop at the end, rather than repeated stops like on a road course) I am looking over the product you linked us to. At first glance, it seems a complete kit at a very good price. The price became my problem. You can easily swell the main kit with upgrades, and there are many upgrades offered on that page. I came to a point where I had lost touch with original deal, and it was confusing for me to back up an option at a time. I'll look again later, but "if it's too good to be true, it isn't" echoes in my head. I cannot really explain SSBCs use of "competition series" and "wheel kit only". Must be retro terms, or relative to their products alone, not industry expressions I am familiar with at this time. None of this means to say SSBC is an inferior product. Indeed, it is not that. The name, as a brand likened to AP and Alcan, does not share the same stage with Baer and Wilwood. In terms of often encountered products yes, but so many buy what is popular, rather what is best for their needs without "braking" the bank. Surely, Brembo would not have the name recognition it has today without it's OEM participation. Maybe you would get a better answer to your questions with a phone call? If so, stop back here and clue me (us) in? Thanks. Y'all be safe. PS; I revisited the SSBC web site seeking answers to your two questions and to relieve some of my confusion. This is what I learned; "Competition Series" is explained on another page, 1st choice under "Tech". http://ssbrakes.com/p-27829-competition-series-calipers.html To answer your second question, I must draw a conclusion. Many of the brake kits offered by SSBC are for street rods and special built dedicated race cars. The kits are standard parts with many Heidts and Alston rail frames, chassis, and suspension assemblies. Heidts and Alston are divisions of Kenny Brown Performance, my main sponsor, and I was able to inquire further. Many SSBC kits include additional parts like master cylinders, dual masters, new spindles, drop spindles, full drum to disc conversions, lines, and so on. You may conclude, and correctly so, that "wheel kit only" means just calipers, rotors, brake lines, brake pads ect., allowing you to build out from the spindle. Did I say that okay? Ummm... You may have also noted the letters "S" and "R" with the kit number. "S" indicates dust shield included, "R" indicates race kit, no dust shield. Hope this helps, but I think i messed it up by trying to explain it. SSBC stuff looks good, may be worth that phone call. Let me (us) know what you learn, eh? Y'all carry on, be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revan Posted March 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 Thanks for the feedback again LuLu. I'm gonna call them within the next few days and see what's up. I'll let yall know what they say when I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledfoot73 Posted March 5, 2015 Report Share Posted March 5, 2015 Hey LuLu, it's great to see you back on these forums again. Take care man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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