NASCAR INTEGRITY

[07SGT]

Well I thought I had heard it all when NASCAR accused individuals and teams of manipulating races so as to determine whom will be in the chase. Years ago Jr could not make the chase on his own, year after year, so they decided to expand from 10 to 12 but claim it was a wild card.

 

Now we have MWR being docked 50 points so as to knock out Truex and to place Newman (read Chevrolet) in the Chase. And they fined MWR 300 K for what has been going on forever but this year it effected Chevrolet in particular with Stewart Hass and Newman. Now granted this type of shenanigans has gone on forever including back with Dale Sr. but it was always over looked. In MWR he was fined because they were so stupid and flagrant in how it was done. Stevie Wonder could have seen what happened. There wasn't even plausible deniablity.

 

Then there was an accusation against Penske/Logano. In the end NASCAR stated the accusation was not conclusive but they placed Penske Organization on probation till the end of the year. WAIT A MINUTE. I THOUGHT YOU HAD TO BE FOUND GUILTY BEFORE YOU COULD BE PLACED ON PROBATION. NOW APPARENTLY JUST SPECULATION IS SUFFICIENT IF IT WILL HELP HENDRICK GET ALL 4 CARS IN THE CHASE.

 

Remember about 3 months ago when Keselowski and Logano were both fined 50 points for a violation with their suspension. Well logano made the Chase on his own even with the points deduction. And keslowski would have made the chase if he had not been docked points. well only about 4-6 weeks ago Jimmy Johnson's car failed inspection, pre-race, but was sent back to the garage to readjust the height of the vehicle and then allowed to race. How many points was he docked.........zero. Not even a violation.

 

NASCAR said they had to take action this time to protect the integrity of the sport but no one, IMO, is more crooked and corrupt in manipulating the outcome of the series. Even Jack Roush came out a few weeks ago and stated how the Fords were at a disadvantage to the Toyota's and Chevies but NASCAR would not allow Ford to make the changes to be competitive.

 

and I will always remember the video from, I believe last year, when before the race Chad Knaus is leaning in the window to talk to Jimmy Johnson as he belted in. And good ole Chad told Jimmy, remember, if you win.......crack the back. Meaning hit the wall or whatever and damage the rear so they would not be able to accurately measure the vehicle post race. Poor Chad did not realize that the in car camera was rolling at the time.

 

And remember earlier this year when Johnson was docked about 25 plus points for a rules violation. Well Hendrick appealed, and everything was over turned. Of course the appeal was heard by a former executive of General Motors. When Penske appealed everything was upheld, especially the points, because everyone knows that is where you manipulate the series quietly. Brian France, IMO, has a great career as a senator when he retires from NASCAR. Ford doesn't stand much of a chance. And it has been that way since about 1971 when Ford dropped out of NASCAR infuriating Big Bill France.

 

 

[2010KonaBlueGT]

I'm a big Jeff Gordon & Jimmie Johnson fan but I have to say, when Rick Hendricks said "(they) earned their way into the chase", I had to laugh.

 

As far as the spin, yeah, SPINNING to help a team mate, or to help ones self is common. The difference here is, it was to help a team mate get into the CHASE, not just to keep from losing a lap.

 

I see that as a HUGE difference. I don't necessarily agree with Brain France (I believe Big Bill would be rolling in his grave over how Brian has changed NASCAR) but that may be because I don't like what he's done to NASCAR (i.e. I am biased).

 

 

Phill

[Carl Bishop]

The title of this thread is a oxymoron......

[mikeljgt500kr]

Sorry, I stopped watching and being interested in NASCAR when they went away from real stock cars, homologation rules, and to the cookie-cutter, all the same except decals approach. What's the point?

[ilmor]

As of yesterday I have quit being a NASCAR fan. It has died for good as an automotive sport in my view on 9-13-13.

 

Someone explain this to me...It's obvious that Clint Boyer was a large part of this entire charade, however he has not been fined or placed on probation. Penske / Joey Lagano / Ford on the other hand, NASCAR "suspects" they did something so Penske is placed on probation.

 

CLEARLY this is all about money. Hendrick as lots of it. NASCAR was afraid of the impact on ticket sales and viewing w/out Gordon in the race, and this gave them a reason to get him in.

 

Then there is Martin Truex. I honestly don't think he was involved in this at all, other than guilt by association. If NASCAR is going to implement this fail-idea of adding a 13th driver, Truex was the most deserving of that.

 

Why not add a 14th or 15th driver....I mean, surely there were several shenigans and trades and buy-offs and bargains since Daytona....so by NASCARs latest way of doing things, maybe 20 guys should be in the chase.

 

This is what happens when the "everybody is equal and deserves a trophy" mentality invades.

[David Hawkins]

The ONLY way to fix Nascar is to do away with the Chase and make it so that no one can own more that ONE Team for Sprint Cup, one for Nation Wide and one for the Truck Series.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

The ONLY way to fix Nascar is to do away with the Chase and make it so that no one can own more that ONE Team for Sprint Cup, one for Nation Wide and one for the Truck Series.

 

I agree with doing away with the chase. When France implemented that, MY interest in NASCAR started waning. I was a DIE HARD NASCAR fan, I'd stay home to watch a race rather than do something productive. I bought NASCAR (driver) hats, jackets, tee shirts, die-cast cars, etc.

 

Now, it's so freakin' complicated, and it's NOT the high-point winner that leads the chase, but the person in the top 10/12/14/? with the most wins that leads the points when there are 10 races to go.

 

Oh, and then they're all separated by one point so now Jeff Gordon is only FIFTEEN POINTS behind the 'point leader'...So, if the point leader (not the #1 seed) was ahead by 700 points going into the last 12 races, because they had a STELLAR season but maybe didn't win much/any, he's now ONE POINT ahead of the next guy. But wait, he might be in 5th (or worst) depending on the guy in 12th that had 3 or 4 wins with 10 DNF's (not sure if that's mathematically possible, but just making a point0.

 

I decided, "screw it", Tune in with 10 races to go, see who's in the chase and MAYBE watch a race or two to see the actual race, not the points chase.

 

Brian France may have enticed a few newbies to the sport but he's fast losing his base.

 

Like I said, Big Bill (France) would be rolling over in his grave if he knew what Brian France did to his beloved NASCAR.

 

 

Phill

[John Canfield]

I have an even more bothersome issue with NASCAR right now, and no one seems to see it. The GM camps are running a car (granted all of them are about as far from 'stock' as can be, but bear with me) that DOES NOT EXIST in the real world. there are none on dealers lots. there are none on ebay for sale. None on any of the online sites. Yet the bowtie boys have run nearly an entire season with a STOCKCAR that is neither stock, nor even available to the general public. You can buy a Camry. You can buy a Fusion. You cannot buy a Chevy SS in the USA at this point in time. Why has this been allowed? Why has no one spoken up? Should all of the GM teams be penalized?

[mikeljgt500kr]

I have an even more bothersome issue with NASCAR right now, and no one seems to see it. The GM camps are running a car (granted all of them are about as far from 'stock' as can be, but bear with me) that DOES NOT EXIST in the real world. there are none on dealers lots. there are none on ebay for sale. None on any of the online sites. Yet the bowtie boys have run nearly an entire season with a STOCKCAR that is neither stock, nor even available to the general public. You can buy a Camry. You can buy a Fusion. You cannot buy a Chevy SS in the USA at this point in time. Why has this been allowed? Why has no one spoken up? Should all of the GM teams be penalized?

Yes, but it's all just decals anyway. The Camry and Fusion are not stock cars either, they just have decals that are of current models. I don't see any distinction, they could call them Coyotes, Roadrunners, and Zephers, it's all the same, they don't exist at dealers anywhere, any of them.

[07SGT]

Perhaps a return to where the teams must run the original factory fenders, hood, roof, and trunk components. And the front end. But even then, when you allow one team to be more equal (read Hendrick and Chevrolet) then the Ford and Toyota fans eventually give up hope. And no we don't switch to Chevy's we just stop watching nascar. Great sport..........until they ruined it. And I have watched nascar since about 1965.

 

It is time for Roush, Penske, Gibbs and other non-Government Motors teams to just tell nascar to play fair or just leave. WE CAN LIVE WITHOUT NASCAR. THEY CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT US!!!!!!!!

[John Canfield]

Yes, but it's all just decals anyway. The Camry and Fusion are not stock cars either, they just have decals that are of current models. I don't see any distinction, they could call them Coyotes, Roadrunners, and Zephers, it's all the same, they don't exist at dealers anywhere, any of them.

No question that it is barely a silhouette car with whatever decals are chosen, but why is the new (and available) Impala not the car on the track. I know it seems like a little thing to some, but at least have some semblence of what actually is in the showroom! Otherwise, why just not create some car that would be more competitive out of thin air, make up a name and run them? At least it should be (in the rules, or is it?) a situation where you can at least go into a showroom and buy a car with the same name as what si on the track. Isn't that what the manufacturers are trying to do, sell cars? IMHO it just speaks deeper in to the integrity of the sport and it handlers.

[ShelbyKR664]

Just look at all the empty seats. The fans are speaking with their dollar. The playoff system is not working. The team with the most capital wins. This why I have lost interest.

[07SGT]

Hendrick is certainly no stranger to manipulation. He was indicted for manipulating Honda sales and becoming one of the largest dealers in the US. However, he claimed he did not bribe officials of Honda but rather gave them generous gifts out of friendship.

 

As far as the Chevy SS some people complained when the Toyota was allowed to compete claiming it should be an American only series. Well, the SS is made in Australia.

 

and Jimmy Johnson and Chad Knaus are certainly one of the greatest combinations to ever hit stock car racing. I would love to have seen what they could have done in the old days when cheating was much more tolerated.

 

But getting back to Hendrick he is large and in charge when it comes to Nascar. When he says jump they say how high! There is the real lack of integrity for nascar. This allows Hendrick to obtain the top sponsors year after year which are willing to pay more to sponsor a vehicle than any other sponsor knowing he has the best chance to win a championship and to have his vehicles shown more than others and gain more publicity for the sponsors. Would Nascar and Hendrick do that................. Like any thing else in this world.....................just follow the money.

[ilmor]

Yes, but it's all just decals anyway. The Camry and Fusion are not stock cars either, they just have decals that are of current models. I don't see any distinction, they could call them Coyotes, Roadrunners, and Zephers, it's all the same, they don't exist at dealers anywhere, any of them.

 

Just one correction re: the decals - did you know that the NASCAR Ford Fusion uses the grille which is actually the same one that is on the production model? When they are involved in wrecks these grilles typically fly off the cars LOL!!

 

You guys want to see some great racing with production-model cars, turn to the Grand-Am (soon to be United Sportscar Championship) Continental Sports Car Series, GS class. Great racing - Mustangs, Camaros, BMW, Porsche...

 

As for the other comment about Ford teams leaving, etc. that would be a wonderful idea. I would love to see the money of Roush and Penske combine with Bruton Smith and the other non-NASCAR owned tracks just become another stock car series which addresses all of these issues. The NASCAR monopoly needs to end.

[Doug_GT350]

Just to show you how much I follow NASCAR any more..... Gordon made the chase?

 

I like Phill use to watch every race and follow it like some guys follow football, now.... I could give a crap!

 

Edit: years ago my wife asked me if the races were fixed as in WWF, I said no. Today I changed that answer! Maybe I'll stat watching F1.

[Lucky 2]

NASCAR is all about money. I went to every race I could when in the NAVY from 1968 to 1992 . After I retired I took my family to at least six races a year. That was six weekend passes, to various races all over the country, I even had season tickets to Daytona on the start finish line. If I wasn't at the track i followed every thing on T.V. when they went to the "Car of Tomorrow," I stopped going to the track. in the last year I have not watched a single race on TV or followed any team or driver. It is about money and they will not be getting any more of mine!

[07SGT]

I just wish naxcar monitored this forum!!!!!!!!

[John Canfield]

 

As far as the Chevy SS some people complained when the Toyota was allowed to compete claiming it should be an American only series. Well, the SS is made in Australia.

 

 

But the 'SS' is actually on the roads in the US. But, like in Australia, it is not called the 'SS'. Here it is called the Caprice and used by police agencies all over. It is called the Holden Commodore, as well as Caprice, in Australia. http://www.holden.com.au/

If that is the case, the why doesn't the Aussie Falcon get put into the mix on the ovals of NASCAR? http://fpv.com.au/

The saddest part is the not only is the Falcon going away, along wiht all Ford production in Australia, but also the ATCC is taking on the NASCAR style COT concept. A huge step back for them, they just don't know it yet.

[jerseygator]

No question that it is barely a silhouette...

...At least it should be (in the rules, or is it?) a situation where you can at least go into a showroom and buy a car with the same name as what si on the track. Isn't that what the manufacturers are trying to do, sell cars?

Exactly... I think it is or was a rule.

 

"Race on Sunday. Sell on Monday."

 

How are they suppose to satisfy that theory when the car isn't available to the public.

 

As far as the OP... Probably does have the integrity of WWE. I just watch for wrecks on the fast tracks. And rubbin and bumpin on the short tracks and road courses.

[Cali_KR]

BORING and predictable....for me, the last time NASCAR was exciting was 3+ decades ago

 

Now, like clockwork, theres that yellow flag with three laps left (for a piece of paper or other such nonsense), to stack 'em up for that green, white, checker

 

All of the cars look the same, all of the drivers look the same....

 

I'm not wasting any more of my time on this waste of time.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Exactly... I think it is or was a rule.

 

 

It *was* a rule. No longer is.

 

FWIW, the *only* "stock" part on a NASCAR Stock Car for a very long time was the trunk lid. They would gut the innner panel but the skin remained a OEM part.

 

When they went to the COT, that all died. A COT is a "spec" body but everyone resisted a spec body so much that France just renamed it The Car Of Tomorrow and shoved it down our throats.

 

 

Phill

[07SGT]

In the late 60's they also mandated the front fenders and I believe also the hood. interesting in that Dodge/Plymouth used to take their fenders for an acid dip to make the fender thinner and lighter. Ford just stopped the assembly line and used thinner metal to be stamped for the racing fenders.

 

One year at Daytona a Ford Torino hit the wall and could not find a replacment fender so they used a Mercury fender and gained 1 mph. All of a sudden all the Fords were switching to Mercury fenders.

 

But as you stated you can't buy a HOT Fusion or a HOT Camry. They should race the body with the engine that comes with it or at least is an option. When was the last time you saw a Fusion with a 351+ CID.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

In the late 60's they also mandated the front fenders and I believe also the hood.

 

The farther back you go, the more parts that had to be OEM/stock.

 

At one point, you had to have the entire stock body and bumpers.

 

I think the roof was included in your above example, along with hood and trunk/deck lid (and fenders).

 

I was involved in a deal (with my friend Steve) to trade the Bill Davis #1 Baby Ruth car (chassis #5) for my '67 Chevelle SS 396 4-sp. Convertable (with front disc brake option). In retrospect, I foolishly traded it to Steve to get the Baby Ruth Car (the Chevelle is worth CONSIDERABLY more these days). It had Jeff Burton #9 decals on it but came with a full set of #1 Jeff Gordon decals so we could make it back into the Baby Ruth/Jeff Gordon car (which we did).

 

That car is the car that Jeff Gordon raced in the Busch Series for Bill Davis Racing, certified by Bill Davis. So....hmm, 91 era? (Gordon raced his first WC race in '92). At that time in NASCAR history, the ONLY thing on the car that was factory stock was the trunk lid (which is the example I pointed out above). As I said, the inner panel was cut out but it was obvious the outer skin was factory stock, judging from the hems along the edges and the left over inner panel parts. It was flimsy as hell but with pins in it, it was held down tight.

 

The rest of the body was steel but not ONE part was made by Ford. It was all fabbed by BDR. Same with the chassis. The engine was a aluminum V-6 but I can't remember who built it.

 

Oh, and every car on the track (Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota, Etc.) uses a FORD 9" rear end with Chevy "truck bars" connecting it to the chassis.

 

 

Phill

[07SGT]

Yes, in the older days everyone used the Ford rear end, and most used the Ford steering box in the 60's.

 

But I would like to see a return to where you had to have the same engine and model vehicle. If only a V-6 is an option (Fusion, Taurus, etc) then that is all you can run. Same with Chevy and Toyota. And you can't buy a Toyota V-8 unless it is OHC, which is prohibited. So the only Toyota push rod engines you can buy are in NASCAR. Before it was mostly about money. Now it is all about money.

[Frank S]

The only thing I notice about the NASCAR TV broadcasts is that no one talks up the car manufacturers. You don't see the vehicles identified until the race is over, and then only briefly. To me that means the manufacturers are not that interested in the whole thing, and have little to gain by being named during the race presentations. So be it.

 

How about we get together and do a "Kickstarter" with, maybe, FIAT 500 or Smart Car as the on-track personality. Get your basic million-dollar generic race car package and slap on a few decals, and you're off to the races. With a decent, well-known racing driver like Patrick Dempsey in the cockpit there wouldn't be enough sponsor space to accommodate all the offers.

[ilmor]

The only thing I notice about the NASCAR TV broadcasts is that no one talks up the car manufacturers. You don't see the vehicles identified until the race is over, and then only briefly. To me that means the manufacturers are not that interested in the whole thing, and have little to gain by being named during the race presentations. So be it.

 

 

Yet, the manufacturers put a lot of money into NASCAR. The manufacturers are probably scared these days to advertise racing because of "political correctness" and lawyers. So many things are screwed up because of this as well.

 

EDIT - A Toyota won last night. I read that this morning. I don't watch anymore. This has freed up a lot of time for me

[jerseygator]

 

Yet, the manufacturers put a lot of money into NASCAR. The manufacturers are probably scared these days to advertise racing because of "political correctness" and lawyers. So many things are screwed up because of this as well.

 

EDIT - A TURDYOTA won last night. I read that this morning. I don't watch anymore. This has freed up a lot of time for me

 

 

[Doug_GT350]

Glad I didn't waste my time watching it!

 

The company I work for is sponsoring a bus trip to Dover at the end of the month, They can't find 27 people to buy 2 tickets each at $45 a ticket out of the 1200 people employed here. Sad but it shows where the sport is headed. Oh yeah I was on the list but with the latest fiasco I pulled my name. I have to rearrange the socks in my drawer that day!

[ViperNC]

The title of this thread is a oxymoron......

Now THAT IS FUNNY. I needed a laugh this morning. NASCRAP has turned into the WWF of the motorsports world. Never cared for it personally.

[QuickSilverShelby]

Glad I didn't waste my time watching it!

I have to rearrange the socks in my drawer that day!

 

 

 

 

That's funny yet it is a critical part of anyone's well being.

 

QSS