07SGT Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Just read where Matt Kenseth has been fined 50 points and his crew chief suspended 6 races and Joe Gibbs loses owner's points for six weeks. The reason? One con rod was 3 grams less than the required minimum. I find this interesting because last year and the beginning of this year Toyota has had problems with blown engines. They stated the rods came from a "European" supplier and Toyota Racing Development did not bother to weigh each of the rods before the assembly of the engine but claimed they derived no advantage with the lighter rod." And I would agree they did not have an advantage with only one "light" rod. But now I know why they have had all the blown engines if the Toyota factory engine development does not recognize that a blue printed engine needs each piece to be precise and weigh exactly the same. Incredible. Apparently some engineer at Toyota does not recognize that 3 grams difference in reciprocating weight is significant at 9,500 rpm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormeaston Posted April 26, 2013 Report Share Posted April 26, 2013 He should have stayed with Ford! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted April 26, 2013 Report Share Posted April 26, 2013 Somebody is on the hot seat for that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hawkins Posted April 26, 2013 Report Share Posted April 26, 2013 "Joe Gibbs Racing has competed with engines supplied by Toyota Racing Development (TRD) since 2012, and has no involvement in the building process." * Maybe THAT should change. Putting that much TRUST in TRD says your willing to put it all on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted April 26, 2013 Report Share Posted April 26, 2013 "Joe Gibbs Racing has competed with engines supplied by Toyota Racing Development (TRD) since 2012, and has no involvement in the building process." * Maybe THAT should change. Putting that much TRUST in TRD says your willing to put it all on the line. Exactly, Toyota is known for thier tendancy to whatever it take to win. A admirable trait IF they could stay within the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted April 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Yes, yes, and yes. But can you imagine any engineer building and blue printing an engine and the internal reciprocating parts are not the exact same weight. Especially when spinning at 9,500 rpm or maybe even slightly more!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondo Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Why are they in NASCAR? I thought it was only for American manufacturers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hawkins Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Secondo, Secondo, Secondo,.......... I think more Toyotas are built here than Japan (or close to it) ............Plus I am sure Toyota drove a Semi Truck load of Cash to the office of Nascar................. You know the old saying.......... "Money Talks.........Bull Chit Walks". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerseygator Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Secondo, Secondo, Secondo,.......... I think more Toyotas are built here than Japan (or close to it) ............Plus I am sure Toyota drove a Semi Truck load of Cash to the office of Nascar................. You know the old saying.......... "Money Talks.........Bull Chit Walks". I'm sure it was ALL about the money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted April 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Toyota has been in NASCAR for several years now but apparently they have the attitude that no one can build an engine as good as they can. So they make their own engines in the lab and ship them to the different teams. I guess they don't feel the good ole boys can do as well. Now it is revealed they do not even balance an engine properly before assembly. This is not to detract from their standard engines for customers but somebody somewhere in that position for racing should know you balance an engine to the n th degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Why are they in NASCAR? I thought it was only for American manufacturers? Because they run on "International Speedways"!! LOL Dodge is owned by Fiat and they still run in Trucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtkeith Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Just read where Matt Kenseth has been fined 50 points and his crew chief suspended 6 races and Joe Gibbs loses owner's points for six weeks. The reason? One con rod was 3 grams less than the required minimum. I find this interesting because last year and the beginning of this year Toyota has had problems with blown engines. They stated the rods came from a "European" supplier and Toyota Racing Development did not bother to weigh each of the rods before the assembly of the engine but claimed they derived no advantage with the lighter rod." And I would agree they did not have an advantage with only one "light" rod. But now I know why they have had all the blown engines if the Toyota factory engine development does not recognize that a blue printed engine needs each piece to be precise and weigh exactly the same. Incredible. Apparently some engineer at Toyota does not recognize that 3 grams difference in reciprocating weight is significant at 9,500 rpm. I agree spinning up that kind of RPM's you better be balanced...someones head will roll for that mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 And I would agree they did not have an advantage with only one "light" rod. But now I know why they have had all the blown engines if the Toyota factory engine development does not recognize that a blue printed engine needs each piece to be precise and weigh exactly the same. Incredible. Apparently some engineer at Toyota does not recognize that 3 grams difference in reciprocating weight is significant at 9,500 rpm. I was just talking with someone about this the other day. 3 grams is HUGE. I've balanced engines and there's NO WAY 3 grams was just simply "overlooked". That's either a HUGE $*%& up or intentional. And yes, one rod (out of 8) could make a difference. If the TRD engines are 'externally balanced" a sharp engineer could minimize that by changing the Internal balance of the engine to help take weight off of the flywheel and/or balancer. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 And yet...Matt is on the pole for tonights race..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingram4868 Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 I do not know anything about engine building. Would this one connecting rod give them an advantage over the other teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtkeith Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 I do not know anything about engine building. Would this one connecting rod give them an advantage over the other teams? Nope quite the opposite the engine won't last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hawkins Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 I posted on Yahoo about this a few days ago and a guy thought I was crazy. I posted that I owned a 1970 Mach 1 R code 428 CJ Ram Air. The Engine was Balanced and Blue Printed. It had Lemans Rods with Dome Top Forged Piston running 13:1 Compression and a killer High Lift Cam. Each rotating piece was balanced separately.............. * The guy tried to say that Connecting Rods are balanced WITH the Pistons in place and if the Rod was lighter then the others, the builder could make up for it with a heavier Piston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 I posted on Yahoo about this a few days ago and a guy thought I was crazy. I posted that I owned a 1970 Mach 1 R code 428 CJ Ram Air. The Engine was Balanced and Blue Printed. It had Lemans Rods with Dome Top Forged Piston running 13:1 Compression and a killer High Lift Cam. Each rotating piece was balanced separately.............. * The guy tried to say that Connecting Rods are balanced WITH the Pistons in place and if the Rod was lighter then the others, the builder could make up for it with a heavier Piston. I believe he may have been correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_GT350 Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 I believe he may have been correct I agree Tim, they balance the rotating assembly. The separate pieces may be "paired up" prior to the balancing operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svtkeith Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 I believe he may have been correct Not the one I had built for my 77 Trans Am!!..both the con rods and pistons were weighed separately before it was installed in the eng and the crank was balanced alone before anything connected to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chairman Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 Pistons are not part of the "rotating" assembly. They should all weigh the same, but do not counter-act any weight of the con-rods, crank, etc. An off-weight con-rod could be counter-balanced with the crank, but that would be complicated operation. I am wondering if Toyota was on to something in that they were using a uniquely shaped crankshaft, and the con-rod was special made for that journal.... NASCAR should pull 10 engines from fast Toyotas and see if other engines have the same issue. Inquiring minds want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted April 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 Toyota stated the rods were from an European manufacturer. Yes a rod and piston could be weighed together and paired as such but they still have to be exact. You can pair a heavier rod with a lighter piston but the only reason is so that you have less material to remove in order to balance. But in order to be perfect, and you must be at 9,500+ rpm, is to ensure that every piece is identical. Looks like those good ole boys from NC and Alabama and FL have a better understanding of physics and mechanics than the Toyota engineers with their degrees. Ford had the same problems 50 years ago and mandated that only the engineers at Detroit could build the engines. Then the good ole boys made the Detroit engines even faster and Ford learned to at least listen to their counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageishecker Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 I was at the race in Richmond last night and after driver introductions Kenseth's team was given the Engine Builder Award for their performance last week. How do you win an engine builder award when 1) your engine failed post-race inspection and 2) your team owner says you don't build your own engines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank S Posted April 28, 2013 Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 NASCAR ideas are slow to change direction; it was the Kenseth team's turn for some promo. Can't derail that just because it makes no sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted April 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2013 I will also bet that the penalty will be reduced. Nascar has levied some incredibly harsh penalties, including against Jimmy Johnson last year, and then were rescinded upon appeal. And politics will come in to play when Toyota and Gibbs and the fans lean on NASCAR. Kezelowski and Longano are also under appeal for their draconian penalties and I expect they will also be rescinded or at a minimum, reduced. Penske knows how to play politics and has been doing so since the days of Trans Am and Can Am in the late 60's early 70's. Penske got caught cheating, or interpreting the Trans Am rule book too loosely, and threatened to pull Chevy support and participation. Otherwise Ford would have won the Trans Am that year. On the other hand a small fourth string team got caught having an engine that was oversize by .16 cid. That is 16 one hundreths of an inch and they levied a huge fine against him which put him out of business and he cannot even compete again. The fine was several hundred thousand dollars. So, as is so often the case, it is not who you know but who you blow. And there is certainly politics in NASCAR and no one has more pull than Hendrick IMO. Wait until next year when, and if, Dodge decides to return. They will receive special consideration so as to attract Dodge fans and be successful. But they will need a first rate team, better than Petty, in order to be successful. Dodge will have to throw cubic dollars towards whichever team runs Dodge if they return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 I believe he may have been correct Nope. You weigh the rod ends. Big end and little end. You find the lightest rod and remove material from each one, end from end until they all match weights. On BOTH ends. Then you find the lightest piston, remove material from the wrist pin bosses until the piston weights all match. Then you find the longest rod and match it to the piston with the least deck height and the shortest rod to the piston with the most deck height (and match all of them in between). Each rod will weigh exactly the same. Each piston will weigh exactly the same. Each PAIR (piston/rod combo) will weigh exactly the same. Each combo will be VERY close to the same length from the center line (CL) of the rod journal to the deck of the piston. That's how you balance the reciprocating assembly. The rotating assembly is the flywheel/clutch, crankshaft and balancer spin balanced and computer balanced by adding or removing weight opposite of the light or heavy spot (generally balanced as one unit). The piston/rod weight matching is part of the balancing process and the piston/rod *length* matching is part of the blueprinting process. I've built a lot of big inch, big horsepower engines and I know of what I speak. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 It would be grossly unfair to Carl Long if NASCAR reduces the penalties. http://nascar.speedtv.com/article/cup-nascar-penalty-killed-my-career-long/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted April 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Carl Long is the driver I spoke of whose violation was an engine .17 cid over size. That is seventeen one hundredths of a cubic inch. And Jimmy Johnson and Chad Knaus had their penalties reversed last year but then again, Carl Long is a nobody, a stroker, that does not work for Hendrick or another big name in NASCAR. Carl long was put out of business for a miniscule violation. But NASCAR showed they were tough on violators and made him an example. Then when the Hendricks appeal it is over turned. I will bet that the Penske and Gibbs penalties are reduced or over turned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nascort Posted May 8, 2013 Report Share Posted May 8, 2013 National Association for Stock Car American Racing Why is toyoduh in an American event!?!?! Better yet... when are they leaving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT Posted May 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2013 actually it is National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing. Not necessarily American. The Penske penalties have been reduced but I noticed they did not give the points back to Kezelowski and Longano as they did Jimmy Johnson last year. They reduced the suspensions. IMO, nascar has no credibility as they are flagrantly in the tank for Hendrick and Chevy. Sort of like the media and Obama. And no I do not want this to go off topic to Obama. The person that is the final arbiter for penalties is a retired General Motors executive that worked for GM for over 40 years. No bias there. And Ryan Newman came out and made disparaging remarks about NASCAR during an interview during the race but NASCAR did not take any action against him as they did Denny Hamlin and others in the past. tAnd Tony Stewart cursed on live interview but they chose not to do anything to him. Of course Stewart just runs the 5,6, and 7th Hendrick cars since you can only have four cars on a team. And nascar wonders why their ratings are down. It is because they are, IMO, morally corrupt and just running a business for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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