REAL ONE Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Thinking of buying a Watts link for the KR. Is this a worthwhile upgrade for the KR. I don't track the car. Purely street driving. What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyperStangs Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 In a word... NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08KR525 Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 I don't see where you would benefit anything on a pure street car. Now if the rear isn't perfectly centered I would just install an adjustable panard bar and call it good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 We'll see in a couple weeks when we put one in Cali_KR's . I'll ask him to post his comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyperStangs Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 We'll see in a couple weeks when we put one in Cali_KR's . I'll ask him to post his comments. I think the OP's question was, is it "worthwhile".... geometrically speaking, the point at which a ~5ft panhard attaches to the axle moves approximately 1 inch laterally in its arc at the full range of the suspension's travel, so you're taking about eliminating only that. Is it better? No denying.... its it "worthwhile"..... meh. I've driven nearly identical Mustangs with and without a Watts and the difference is completely indiscernible. As I am building my car to track over several months, the watts would be possibly the very last addition (if at all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 In a word... NO. I think the OP's question was, is it "worthwhile".... geometrically speaking, the point at which a ~5ft panhard attaches to the axle moves approximately 1 inch laterally in its arc at the full range of the suspension's travel, so you're taking about eliminating only that. Is it better? No denying.... its it "worthwhile"..... meh. I've driven nearly identical Mustangs with and without a Watts and the difference is completely indiscernible. As I am building my car to track over several months, the watts would be possibly the very last addition (if at all). You're confusing- no - yes - maybe. Have you done this on one of your KR's ? I'm just saying that there is a TS member who has just purchased one for his KR and I will try to get him a straight answer from a KR owner who has decided to go that way. Just trying to help the guy out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyperStangs Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 You're confusing- no - yes - maybe. Have you done this on one of your KR's ? I'm just saying that there is a TS member who has just purchased one for his KR and I will try to get him a straight answer from a KR owner who has decided to go that way. Just trying to help the guy out. Well, I'm not sure I could be any more direct. On the street for a normal driver not seeing any track driving the answer is an emphatic no. I think my point was that even on a tracked car the difference is negligible IMHO. From a suspension geometry standpoint the KR is no different than any other Mustang. Based on your number of posts and obvious experience I think you would agree. I'm just trying to help as well.... sometimes more is just more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svt13 Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Thinking of buying a Watts link for the KR. Is this a worthwhile upgrade for the KR. I don't track the car. Purely street driving. What do you guys think? I am not sure how it is with the KRs but on my 13 after I put the watts link my car never hops out on turns anymore. I can also go thru on ramps about 10-15 mph faster than before installing the watts. Also my alignment is perfect in the rear unlike most with an adjustable bar after lowering they are still usually off 1/4-1/8 inch to the left mine is dead center. The main reason I installed the watts was because I didn't want the rear to hop out anymore over bumps no matter how fast or hard I go over them and the watts link solved that. My car is 99.9% street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyperStangs Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Racing is 65% the laws of physics, and 35% how much your brain says you can bend them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Well, I'm not sure I could be any more direct. On the street for a normal driver not seeing any track driving the answer is an emphatic no. I think my point was that even on a tracked car the difference is negligible IMHO. From a suspension geometry standpoint the KR is no different than any other Mustang. Based on your number of posts and obvious experience I think you would agree. I'm just trying to help as well.... sometimes more is just more. Spoken like a true car salesman. I'll take that as a NO on the answer to my question " Have you done this on one of your KR's ? " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyperStangs Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Spoken like a true car salesman. I'll take that as a NO on the answer to my question " Have you done this on one of your KR's ? " Dear Sir, I am NOT a car salesman. I'm an enthusiast who happens to represent Ford, Rich Ford and Shelby American when I can. My livelihood is not at all tied to my ability to offer these cars to those who enjoy them. If I were a salesman I would have answered in the affirmative and urged the OP to buy this product, since you feel I am related to its sales in some way. I spend my time as I like, and I have indeed driven a KR along with just about any other Ford product they have ever made. Not because I've needed to, but because I've wanted to. I've shaken hands with Carroll Shelby and I've worked directly with those who have influenced the image of Mustangs since the late 80's. I try to help others, but I don't in any way feel I have all the answers. I'm constantly learning and I have no agenda. But the LAST thing I am is a car salesman.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chairman Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I had the Shelby adjustable panhard bar and brace on my KR, and it was better handling than stock. But I still wanted more rear end control. So I installed the Shelby Watts link. Much better in all regards. Street handling is better. I haven't had it on a full road course yet, but I can feel the rear end is more planted. If someone is only interested in street use, the watts link may not be required. But anyone expecting track use or spirited driving, the watts link is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jer Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 *I* liked this mod in everyday "street driving", the fact that the "rear steering effect" went away was obvious to me immediately. Just my 2 cents. Jer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT2899 Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 maybe you could find someone locally from TS that has one on their car and go for a ride before you make your decision. its awful hard to get a feel for something over opinions coming through a keyboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMcGuirk Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Here you go - http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_suspension.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torch40 Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 Cliff Clavin note: The Watts link was invented in 1784 ! Interesting reading here if you really want to nerd out... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt's_linkage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Also my alignment is perfect in the rear unlike most with an adjustable bar after lowering they are still usually off 1/4-1/8 inch to the left mine is dead center. No. An adjustable bar that has been 'adjusted' to center the vehicle over the rear axle now has a vehicle that is centered over the axle. Not this much to the left or that much to the right. If the adjustment is off, it is no different than a Watts that wasn't adjusted properly. Movement throughout the dynamic range with regards to a panhard bar versus a Watts is a different discussion than what you wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svt13 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 No. An adjustable bar that has been 'adjusted' to center the vehicle over the rear axle now has a vehicle that is centered over the axle. Not this much to the left or that much to the right. If the adjustment is off, it is no different than a Watts that wasn't adjusted properly. Movement throughout the dynamic range with regards to a panhard bar versus a Watts is a different discussion than what you wrote. I don't know about all that. But a lot of people that I have seen posting about their alignment said they still couldn't get it 100% perfect with an adjutable panhard bar. That was specifically another reason why I chose the watts link route as well. I'm too OCD to settle with 1/8 inch off, I need absolute perfection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Thinking of buying a Watts link for the KR. Is this a worthwhile upgrade for the KR. I don't track the car. Purely street driving. What do you guys think? In a word ... YES JMO - P.S. REAL ONE - NICE GARAGE COLLECTION Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyperStangs Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 We'll have to agree to disagree... and I can live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 We'll have to agree to disagree... and I can live with that. Yep - no problem - I'm sure there are plenty of other things that we'll find to agree upon and disagree upon Jeff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REAL ONE Posted December 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Guys: Thanks for the replies. Understand both sides of the argument. Probably will go with Watts Link for the cool factor if nothing else. Silly..I know but I know you guys "get it" as its a car guy thing. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyperStangs Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Guys: Thanks for the replies. Understand both sides of the argument. Probably will go with Watts Link for the cool factor if nothing else. Silly..I know but I know you guys "get it" as its a car guy thing. Cheers. Not "Silly" at all... the real beauty of these cars is there ARE so many options. Nobody is really "right" or "wrong"... that's why they make chocolate and vanilla. ENJOY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I don't know about all that. But a lot of people that I have seen posting about their alignment said they still couldn't get it 100% perfect with an adjutable panhard bar. I don't know why that would be. It's a *very* simple adjustment and measurement. To measure it, I used a string bob on each side of the fender lip. When I first put my car on the ground (after installing the FR-3 handling pack) the left rear tire was one full inch offset to the left (sticking out the driver side well). Using a string bob hanging off of the outer fender lip I adjusted the rear axle over to the right, 1/2 inch and got the axle *perfectly* centered in the body. And that's where it stays, other than under compression or rebound of the body (dynamically). And yes, I DO get the rear steer that Jer wrote about and I have seriously considered some sort of watts link/age to counter it. Ya know when you bang a shift and the car kicks out to the left (rear of the car kicks to the right)? I'm thinking some of that is the rear steer you get from when the ass end of the car squats (weight transfer). I know the rear tire speed delta is the primary contributor too but I'm thinking (meaning I'm guessing) that some of it is due to the panhard bar arc. I also has a butt pucker when I hit a bridge seam at around 145mph. The ass gets light and then lands, giving the rear axle the opportunity to put the panhard into a full arc. It wasn't a problem, but it got my attention. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably put a Watts link/age system in the rear of my car vs. the FRPP axle girdle, Shelby adjustable Panhard bar and Body Brace (and probably for just a little more money than what I spent). Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Patten Posted February 10, 2013 Report Share Posted February 10, 2013 Check out Cali_KR's comments on his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperNC Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Watts Link or Panhard bar is a drivers preference based upon "how" you drive. Its purely subjective and all about what type of performance you are looking for. They guy who drives 100% on the street and does not corner hard will be happy with the panhard bar. The guy who is looking to make the car handle the very best it can and pushes to that limit will not be happy with the panhard bar. I went with the Shelby billet aluminum watts link and not only does it look incredible, but it makes a huge difference in tight high speed corners (track or street). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REAL ONE Posted February 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svt13 Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 So I finally took my watts link off and went back to a panhard bar and on the street I can tell you a watts link makes NO DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER. Anyone saying otherwise is fooling themselves and they just believe it makes a difference because they want to. There are a few turns especially an extremely long ramp that with the watts I would take at like 60 mph and I was pulling pretty good gs. According to my track apps I was pulling .92 I could do the exact same thing with the panhard yesterday on winter tires with 35 degree temperatures and it felt the EXACT SAME. The rear steering that I thought the watts link solved was still solved even after the watts was off. This makes me believe either my springs or my UCA,LCA fixed that issue and not the watts. I will say that going over bumps there is a tiny bit more squrim without the watts because it allowed for easier vertical motion like an IRS would. But it is very very small. Here is basically the difference between a watts and panhard. If you test the max g's you could get with both you would probably find the watts would be little bit better. But that would be only on a track. I don't know about you but I don't have the ba**s to test out the limits on the street. So lets say on a track you pull .92 on a single turn with a panhard bar. A watts would do .94. But on the street unless you want to chance it and be in a really hairy situation, the watts link makes no difference. I can speak better about this topic because I went from panhard to watts and then back to panhard and I paid attention specifically to how the car reacted doing the same turns, at the same speeds, in the same conditions which I'm sure many other members won't be able to tell you. Save your money basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SGT2899 Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 ^^^ thank you for the direct comparison review. hopefully it will clear things up for some members Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViperNC Posted February 11, 2013 Report Share Posted February 11, 2013 There are a few turns especially an extremely long ramp that with the watts I would take at like 60 mph and I was pulling pretty good gs. According to my track apps I was pulling .92 You're only going 60 mph? Thats why you don't feel the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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