Going for 400 hp on SGT - Naturally Aspirated

[AndyGJ]

I know many of my fellow SGT owners have heard my thoughts on mods to my SGT, but I think I've decided on my upgrade path.

I'm planning on modding my car to get close to or slightly over 400 hp...I think I can do it for about $3500 ish, and still keep it N/A.

 

The huge benefit to me about staying naturally aspirated. is that I can swap tunes from a 93 octane performance tune down to an 87 octane with restricted performance to allow a novice driver like my two young boys (and I know in 6+ years they will be begging to take it out for a spin).

 

Presently, I have plenty of cosmetic mods and slight upgrade to the brakes. The only minor performance mods that I have done are:

 

1) Upgraded the Ford Stock air intake elbow to the Steeda CAI Intake Elbow.

2) SCT-X3 / Steeda 93 Octane Tune

 

In one of my prior topics, I expressed my disappointment that these upgrades didn't really net much improvement in the "seat of the pants" dyno as I had hoped for. The nice folks at Steeda suggested that these mods probably added 8 to 10 hp to the car, but that is really hard to determine. So, my quest for more power without breaking the bank continues.

 

One of the FRPP Suppliers has a 375 hp mod kit that adds the 62mm throttle body, Hot Rod cams, and the Performance Intake Manifold, and I was looking to add a set of Shorty headers with a full custom tune to get right at the 400hp mark. Here is the install progression I was considering to spread the costs over a couple of paychecks.

 

1) Add the FRPP 62mm throttle body and use an updated canned tune from Steeda for now.

2) Add JBL equal length runner Shorty headers and install 1/2 inch lower performance motor mounts (again update the canned tune with Steeda for now.

3) Add FRPP Performance Intake Manifold and FRPP Hot Rod Cams. Adding a full custom tune at this point by the installer.

 

The lower motor mounts are to allow the FRPP Strut tower brace to clear the new FRPP intake manifold...still want to keep this on the convertible for extra bracing. I think all the parts will run me about $2200 and the labor will be around $1300 to $1500. I'm also looking at swapping the stock 3.55 gears for the 3.73 FRPP gears at some point in the process.

 

I called the FRPP Tech-line to get their confirmation that these items will get my SGT to that level, and they confirmed that it is a solid claim and not all hype. The only other option that is a potential add-on would be the CNC Stage-1 heads, but that is and additional $2,000 in parts alone and really only adds more power in the higher RPM range (above 6k) and I typically don't push the motor there knowing that we don't have forged internals. The CNC heads would push up to 425 - 440 hp for an additional $2,500+ in funds....that starts to approach the basic S/C costs as well.

 

I also confirmed this would all fit using the lowering motor mounts with installer who I will look to do this work - he is sure it will and that this combo will get me to right at 395 to 400 hp at the flywheel and let me keep the strut tower brace. Both the FRPP Tech-line and the installer said it will be a very substantial improvement in performance while also remaining a very controllable car. I should be putting down about 350+/- hp at the wheels. My goal is to get a good bit of usable power across the entire RPM range

 

Any thoughts? Am I missing anything here that I should be considering?? Anything I should change??

 

I'm going to start with Step 1 (62 mm TB) in the next couple of days so I can maybe install it this weekend.

 

I was initially looking at the FRPP shorty headers, but my installer told me that there is only a slight difference between the FRPPs and the stock exhaust manifolds...that is when the JBAs came into the picture - he claimed they were more of a cross between a Shorty design and a Long Tube design with the Shorty expenses and fit.

 

 

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated...$3500 to $4000 is a ton of money for me to spend on my car, and I don't want to make a mod upgrade that I will regret later.

 

Thanks,

Andy.

[twobjshelbys]

cam and headers

[AndyGJ]

cam and headers

 

 

Cams & headers only, or do you think all the above are worth the cost/benefit?

Just want to make sure I understand your post....

 

thanks,

Andy.

[twobjshelbys]

A tune will help get you closer but the rest of the intake path is not too far from optimal. You're working to get the 10% improvements not the 1%. I believe what you want to do is within reach, but you'll need to go after the big hitters first. An engine is an air compressor first and foremost. Get a clear path pre-combustion and post-combustion. Like in fixing manufacturing problems you look for your top of the pareto. Go for the big gains first, then the little ones.

[Larry T]

Cams & headers only, or do you think all the above are worth the cost/benefit?

Just want to make sure I understand your post....

 

thanks,

Andy.

 

 

 

I am interested to know as well.

[AndyGJ]

Tony,

 

Would you do #1 & #2, then split up #3 into two different steps - add the HR cams to see where I get, then add the FRPP intake manifold if needed?

From what I understand, doing #1 (62mm TB) is pretty much minimal gains (if and) unless I do add the intake manifold...would you agree?

 

I still may do the 62mm TB for the improved appearance and potentially improved throttle response it may bring.

 

Any advise there?

 

Andy.

[andrewnagle1964]

Andy,

 

I wish i had dynoed and dynoed along the way. Unfortunately my local tuner passed away and I have not found a new one and do not have a recent dyno with all my mods.

 

4.10 gears will give you seat of the pants feel, not HP and I think they are one of the best mods

 

I have basically done everything you are talking about and love my car.

 

I will PM you all the mods I have done.

 

Good luck deciding and most importantly drive the hell out of it.

 

Andrew

 

 

 

[shelbytexan]

410's are definately the best mod for the money. 373's are just to close to the 355's to make it worth your money. You will get more seat of the pants feel out of the 410's than any other mod period. Good-Luck.

[07SGT]

I think this is an exceptional choice and look forward to not only photos but also sound clips of the hot rod cams. Good power and good longevity.

[ARMORINE]

i have everything youve listed except the intake manifold, im only pushing around 385, granted thats a bruising 330 rwhp. the throttle body wont get you much gain without a manifold. i have a mildly ported gt500 throttle body on mine and it only netted me around 3 hp and that could be from weather, however it vastly improved throttle response.

[AndyGJ]

i have everything youve listed except the intake manifold, im only pushing around 385, granted thats a bruising 330 rwhp. the throttle body wont get you much gain without a manifold. i have a mildly ported gt500 throttle body on mine and it only netted me around 3 hp and that could be from weather, however it vastly improved throttle response.

 

 

That is great news...helps me feel good about the plan I've laid out. My plan of adding the FRPP 62 mm throttle body is to accompany the FRPP intake manifold. From what I've heard and even from the FRPP Tech line, they say that the 62 mm TB alone doen't really generate any extra power...unless you add the performance intake manifold.

 

In laying out the plan, I tried to do it in steps that would work for cash flow reasons and within minor tune adjustments each step of the way that could be accomodated with updated canned tunes until I got to the end of the project. Once everything is installed, I will go for a true custom tune that will take into consideration all the new components and the specifics of just my car versus the middle of the road canned tune.

 

I'm hoping the FRPP intake manifold and the 62mm TB together will be worth an additional 20 HP.

 

Armorine, any idea what kind of Torque numbers you are seeing if you have dynoed your SGT?

Also, did you install all your mods one at a time, or were they done individually? I was wondering what mod gave you the most performance gain.

 

Thanks,

Andy.

[brandyspaw]

Interesting thread as I have been contemplating going the supercharger route lately. However, the dollar investment, with all the associated extras needed for that route, starts to push the SC plan to really expensive levels. While the SC would, off course, yield much greater performance, this more middle of the road plan your looking at is intriguing.

 

It would give a good deal of "seat of pants" performance for the dollars expended. Especially since I wasn't planning to go very high on the boost if I went the supercharger route anyway. I'm not looking for maxium performance--just a bit more fun.

[2007tungstenGT500]

i was looking to do what you are when i had my '06 mustang GT. contrary to what others have said, i say the intake and tune combo yields the most power, but with an SGT you already have that (albeit with a conservative FRPP tune). as others have noted you can also do ported heads, hotrod cams, headers, intake manifold, throttle body, underdrive pulleys and rear gears. my shorty headers were a waste of money. if you do headers, go long tube, but they will require a tune mod. my 3.73 rear gears were great. i think they are definitely worth the money (even if you have 3.55). the ratios seem perfectly suited to the 4.6 power band. i would ignore 4.10s as they rev the engine too high in all gears...bad for highway cruising, in my opinion. i have a magazine article that outlines exactly how to achieve what you are after. i will look for it when i get home.

[andrewnagle1964]

Hey Andy,

 

Just drive north and come to Asheville. You can take my SGT out for a spin (4.10's LT's and FRPP stuff ) we might even crack open the bottle !

 

Andrew

[young768]

You might want to take a look at this before you change the intake without the heads: http://www.musclemus...ng/viewall.html

Look at the RPM ranges around 2500 to 3500 RPM as that is where most of the daily driving is done. Also, look at 4500 RPM to 5500 RPM to see the differences in HP and Torque for aggressive driving. Remember that Torque is what you are feeling when "getting on it" as that is what moves the car. If you were racing at high speed, HP would be even more important.

 

You also might find that long tubes are going to be more expensive than you expect since we have emissions here in Atlanta.

[AndyGJ]

You might want to take a look at this before you change the intake without the heads: http://www.musclemus...ng/viewall.html

Look at the RPM ranges around 2500 to 3500 RPM as that is where most of the daily driving is done. Also, look at 4500 RPM to 5500 RPM to see the differences in HP and Torque for aggressive driving. Remember that Torque is what you are feeling when "getting on it" as that is what moves the car. If you were racing at high speed, HP would be even more important.

 

You also might find that long tubes are going to be more expensive than you expect since we have emissions here in Atlanta.

 

 

Hey Robert!

 

I was hoping you would chime in with your knowledge/experience since your set-up is pretty close to what I'm after minus the FRPP Intake & 62mmTB.

As you can imagine, I've been asking tons and tons of questions....and one thing that I asked about in setting this goal for 400 hp is how the torque will be effected by the different steps along the way and at the final result. It's hard to set a Torque number goal, so I set a HP goal figuring that one would probably pull the other north if constructed correctly.

 

If you look at the pictures in that article (and I have read that article and charted those numbers side by side several times!!), they are using Long Tube type of connections to vent the engine in the test lab. I am not looking to go to LTs for two reasons - 1) ground clearance issues, and 2) cost. So I asked two different sources (and would appreciate any additional comments or clarification from ANYONE here - I'm the novice remember) how LTs and Shorties would affect the HP and TQ results. A local tuner and twice a tech from the FRPP Tech line said that the LTs will generate higher performance numbers in both HP and TQ, but more TQ for the upper RPM range, while the Shorties will generate lower overall gains, but the TQ gains will be shown in the lower to mid range RPMs and a touch up high.

 

From what a local tuner told me, it has to do with the fact that the 4.6L needs some back pressure on the motor and LTs release too much at that low end causing a loss of TQ and that is where it has the opposite result that I'm looking for. The shorty headers keep just enough to maximize the scavaging effect (I think that is the correct term) for what they are capable of doing. So I then investigated different shorty headers....first starting with the FRPP shorties. Now, I've been told that the JBA shorty headers are a little better version since it has closer to equal length tuned runners than the FRPP version, but don't release near the back pressure that the LTs would since the collector is still relatively close to the exhaust chambers.

 

I also asked the FRPP guys about the Stage 1 CNC head as well. They said that most of the CNC head gains come from more volume swapping into the exhaust shambers (larger sized intake and exhaust valves and durations from CAMS) and building up that back pressure again if using LTs that the stock heads could not accomodate. The improvement comes in the mid range and up, and also allows the RPM red-line to extend northward to that 7,000 mark.

 

In my situation, Robert you dead nuts right on it....most of my driving is in teh 2500 to 3000 RPM range and I hardly ever get north of 5500 RPMs and usually aim to shift when I cross over the 5000 mark if I'm really getting on it. I try not to beat on this one too hard as I really want to enjoy this one for many years to come. Also, it adds $2,000 cost in parts plus whatever for Labor, so figure $2500 to $3000 additional...now I should just look at a Paxton SC at that point, but all of that is over my budget by a large margin.

 

Again, I'm the novice here and I'm doing this step by step with limited funds in almost monthly installments so to speak. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions or confirmations or better guidance....PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE chime in here. This is the whole purpose of this thread that I started. I need the help, advise, and guidance of my fellow SGT and Shelby Bros who know way more than I do.

 

 

Thanks!!

 

Andy.

[AstroDan]

^{I have always heard to pursue the torque and HP will follow, not the other way around.}

^{If you have any plans for future supercharger, make sure to invest with that ultimate goal in mind.}

[JeffJ]

I would say that you definitely should not chase a HP number. You will keep spending money and not be happy with how it drives. When I first added the HR cams, I loved how they sounded and I did gain a nice HP number, but lost too much bottom end with the automatic tranny. I lost over a 1/2 second in the quarter and gained almost 20 mph top end. My car became an absolute dog off the line but great HP once you got up in the RPMs. I can't tell from any of the posts or mods if you have a stick or an auto? The cams do need to breath better for sure. No matter what you do, you will need a good tune to get all the parts to work together optimally. I agree with others and would get 4.10's as one of the first things. It will feel like it gained a tone of HP eventhough you didn't. I like your direction you're going, but not sure you will see that 400 number without going deeper in the engine or forced induction. Don't be disappointed if you do not get there with those mods. Just build the car that you enjoy driving. Trying to hit a number will drive you crazy and drive your bank account down, without maybe getting the results in driveability you want. Agree, chase the torque, not the HP for the street.

[AndyGJ]

JeffJ - my SGT is a 5sp manual. It sounds like I need to be careful that I may wind up going the opposite direction that I'm really after...a good shot of low end power that carries all the way through the RPM range.

 

 

I spoke to Ryan today at Injected Engineering about this potential set-up. He told me that I would definitely lose some low end Torque from the FRPP intake manifold and I would lose some additional low end Torque from the Hot Rod Cams. He suggest simply the Cams and a set of Long Tubes...his preferred LT is a set from Stainless Works - parts, labor, installation materials, and dyno tune would run right around $3200 before I even do the Hot Rod Cams.

 

He pulled up several customers different dyno sheets, told me what mods they had and read off the HP & TQ numbers at 3k, 4k, and 5k RPMs as his proof source. When I asked about the LTs losing too much back pressure, he said that may be true for a cat-less system with muffler delete pipes - so pretty much a no restriction system. But for me in Atlanta where passing emmissions is a concern, I would have at least high flow cats and would keep my KR mufflers, so there would be some substantial amount of restriction. But $3,200 is a lot for just the LTs and it would take my entire budget for this project

 

I've already ordered my 62mm throttle body - it probably will arrive tomorrow. I'll need to order my canned tune from Steeda to accomodate it, but I'm not expecting much for a performance change there.

 

DIFFERENT PLAN - One thought would be to go ahead with the next step by way of getting the JBA Shorty headers installed, but also add a set of the FRPP 3.73 gears, and now add the custom tune. I won't get me to the 400 HP level, but what I'm truely after is the increases in the torque and some HP to boot. I know a lot of folks suggest the 4.10s, but I think I might be too disappointed with how tall those gears will feel, especially in 1st & 2nd. At the same time, I could add an Underdrive Pully to pick up a slight bit more at the wheels.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Andy.

[peckshelby]

pretty much the same mods I have except 4.10 gears. Go with the 4.10's, when I was researching it not one bad review could be found about them. they were my best bang for the buck mod.

[07SGT]

Did I understand correctly that your tuner/installer is offering to install LTs and a tune only for 3,200? (3200 before I do the hot rod cams). If I read that correctly that you are only receiving LTs and a tune for 3200 that sounds very expensive.

[AndyGJ]

Yes...that was for LTs, catted x-pipe, and tune for $3,200. This is a different shop that does really good work from what I have heard (Young768 has used them for his needs) and yesterday was the first time that I had talked to them about what I was going to do with my original post's plan.

 

I thought that was a steep price....the first time I ever spoke to them about performance enhancements back in March or April, this was one of their main suggestions, and the price was in the same neighborhood. I haven't ever double checked them for this mod against another shop, but I might talk to the tuner I have been recently dealing with for his pricing on a similar mod (as well as his thoughts for my car).

 

I was able to line up most of the funds to do this in short order - next 60 days - but I may have to do this slowly so I can feel what the results are each step of the way.

 

I probably should do 1) gears, 2) shorty headers, and 3) custom tune next as one step...see where that lands me.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Andy.

[AndyGJ]

i was looking to do what you are when i had my '06 mustang GT. contrary to what others have said, i say the intake and tune combo yields the most power, but with an SGT you already have that (albeit with a conservative FRPP tune). as others have noted you can also do ported heads, hotrod cams, headers, intake manifold, throttle body, underdrive pulleys and rear gears. my shorty headers were a waste of money. if you do headers, go long tube, but they will require a tune mod. my 3.73 rear gears were great. i think they are definitely worth the money (even if you have 3.55). the ratios seem perfectly suited to the 4.6 power band. i would ignore 4.10s as they rev the engine too high in all gears...bad for highway cruising, in my opinion. i have a magazine article that outlines exactly how to achieve what you are after. i will look for it when i get home.

 

 

I sure would be interested in what that article has to say if you get a chance to find it....I'm not sure if the LT's are within my budget but I'll have to check with another shop (see my prior post from yesterday).

 

Let me know if you are able to locate that article...PM me and I'll send you my email address if that is easier.

 

Thanks,

Andy.

[ARMORINE]

when my car was on the dyno she put down 325 rwtq on the dot.

[ARMORINE]

bar none the 4:10s and the mutha thumpr cams i have gave me the best performance. everything was done individually including the exhaust. i have a catless system so i have little backpressure., full JBA front to back with MASSIVE(for NA 4.6) 1 7/8 headers. going into 3 inch collectors. my car has little torque below 3000 rpm however at 3500 torque spikes nearly 80 pound feet and continues to climb rapidly. part of my lack of torque down low is how big my pipse are. i bought them because i plan on doing a high reving NA stroker build soon.

 

personaly i wouldnt use stainless works. theyr very expsenive and over kill for a NA car. the hp and torque difference between all the brands is VERY small. were talking less then 12 hp. honestly for the build id be looking at a cheaper brand like mac. they make good quality stufff for a great price. not to mention in the lt wars they come very lose to the same power as the stainless works.

 

i build my car for road racing so mid and high rpm power is all i care about. low end torque means nothing to me.

 

my advice on the install is find some one you can trust. long tube installs are pretty easy unless you get really big longtubes. worse come to worse you have to lift the motor up on each side by about an inch to slide them into place. can be done in your garage in less then 3 hours if your good. just dont get 1 7/8ths theyr over kill unless you plan on turning your motor into a high rpm screamer.

 

best advice i can offer you......order the parts yourself and bring them to who you want the work done by. they cant gouge you then. install should be around 500.

 

and 1 more thing. you really need tall gears for cams. so 3:73s minimum. i HIGHLY recommend 4:10's.

[AndyGJ]

Well, I received the FRPP 62mm throttle body from www.BuyFordRacing.com on Friday, and I've ordered the new tune from Steeda for my SCT-X3. I'll install the new unit when I get the new tune....the part looks awesome!!

 

 

I heard back from the tuner/installer I was looking to use...the cost of the shorty headers went from $600 for installation, up to $900 for the JBA shorty headers....hmmm. Anyone know if any reason that he would justify $300 more / 50% labor hike?

I double checked my notes from 2 months ago when he told me the $600 price.

 

 

I also had that the other shop wanted $750 installation for the Long Tubes....and there is a ton more to do with the LTs installation wise from what I understand. They also did an installation of FRPP shorties for a fellow TS member for $500....I may have to compete some of this project with them.

 

Any thoughts on the $900 installation price, other than run away from it? I thought I should be able to get the parts AND installation for around $950-$1000. Am I wrong?

 

thanks,

Andy.

[JeffJ]

Wow, maybe you can find a TS member close to you that would help you out. If you lived out here, I'd do it for free. It really is not that much work if you have a lift. Even if not, it's not to bad. I did a set of shorties on my buddies '07 GT in about 2 1/2 hours (with my two post lift). The Shelby X-pipe is easier to drop out then a GT. Sure hate to see people gouged like that. $750 for longtubes may not be that bad, but $900 for shorties is robbery. I would never take it to a shop who quoted me that kind of price. Good luck with your search! Will keep watching.

[ARMORINE]

900 for shorties??? wth. shorties are easy as pie to install. my advice...run fast and run hard. 750 isnt bad for longtubes, not great but not bad.

[AndyGJ]

Wow, maybe you can find a TS member close to you that would help you out. If you lived out here, I'd do it for free. It really is not that much work if you have a lift. Even if not, it's not to bad. I did a set of shorties on my buddies '07 GT in about 2 1/2 hours (with my two post lift). The Shelby X-pipe is easier to drop out then a GT. Sure hate to see people gouged like that. $750 for longtubes may not be that bad, but $900 for shorties is robbery. I would never take it to a shop who quoted me that kind of price. Good luck with your search! Will keep watching.

 

 

I don't have a lift, but I do have the home made wood ramps and a racing profile floor jack. I've done several small mods, but I have not jumped on something like this one and would hate to mess something up. I may call a couple of sources to see what it would take to do this at my house, but if I can get a reasonable price from someone who knows what they are doing, then I'd be more inclined to go that route to make sure it's done 100% correct.

 

I about to order an Adjustible Panhard Bar and Panhard Bar Brace to center the rear axle and add better bushings to the rear bars -- those I feel comfortable about doing myself (and maybe even get my sons involved so that they can start learning about these cars).

 

I'll post an update in the next day or so as I research my shorty header installation options.

 

Thanks for confirming what I was afraid of...

 

Andy.

[AndyGJ]

Quick question -

 

I'm looking at two different sets of Shorty Headers....

 

1) the BBK Ceramic Tuned Length Shorty Headers ($419), or

2) the JBA Cat4ward Shorty Headers ($456 stainless / $629 ceramic)

 

Should I prefer one over the other? I've been told that the ceramics help keep engine heat down and one site says that it also helps slightly with performance with the scavaging effect....any truth to this?

 

Thanks,

Andy.