Watts Link

[patrickshelby]

I'm waiting fo this part before I continue my vicious cycle LOL

[Madlock]

Does not sound like you SVT!

Normally you ask thousands of questions analyse everything twice or more and then go over it several times again and then wait for someone to report...to argue some more... :D

 

 

No kidding, Patrick. I've driven Laguna Seca, Le Mans, and the Nordschliefe. The only setting I won't even try to take-on is the stretch from Shift to NumLock. Even those who survive wish they hadn't tried. :hammer_self:

[patrickshelby]

No kidding, Patrick. I've driven Laguna Seca, Le Mans, and the Nordschliefe. The only setting I won't even try to take-on is the stretch from Shift to NumLock. Even those who survive wish they hadn't tried. :hammer_self:

 

[Madlock]

Patrick,

 

Here's a picture of the missing/incorrect replacement hardware kit that arrived today which finally allowed the entire system to get buttoned-up today.

 

 

Unfortunately, the car wasn't yet ready for a test drive. There were several things my tech wanted to clean up with the car still on the rack even after dialing-in the geometry. Rather than simply zip tying the e-brake lines that normally thread through the OE LCAs to the new ones, he made a spring hanger to relocate the driver's side line and rerouted the passenger side line along existing plumbing rather than stressing them by attaching them to relocation brackets' rather severe new geometry or spoiling the clean aesthetic he created.

 

 

 

He's now moved on to trimming over-length bolts WhiteLine supplied that he'd rather have out of the way. Talk about anal retentive in the very best ways. He makes even the Swiss look sloppy.

 

 

After fully loading the suspension, he also moved the 6-point Watt's linkage mount to the lower setting after determining it was the most neutral. With the Ford Racing 5300-L Springs, he was able to true the Watt's linkage's neutral geometry to 1 degree from dead level on one arm and 2 degrees on the other with the differential centered and propeller at absolute vertical. Here are some quick snaps of the buttoned-up system.

 

 

 

 

One of the most remarkable aspects of the installation is how "clean" an environment exists despite having added so much behind the differential relative to stock. Similarly, despite so much equipment being situated in such a small area, there seems to be amazing amounts of clearance for everything to move freely throughout its range of travel and more plus ample space to work comfortably on just about anything, which will come in very handy as we proceed to install beneath-the-car camera mounts for video.

 

I'll be thrilled if it drives only half as good as it looks so far.

[patrickshelby]

Those bolts were important. I agree.

The central pivot bolt is quite an essential part of the assembly!

The idea of road testing the unit with some GoPro in the chassis is very exciting.

Hope you manage to do just that and share it among us.

Regarding your tech. Yes it's clean and I would'nt consider it another way. For looks... but for safety also.

Thx for the pics!!!

[Madlock]

Had between 2 and 6 cameras running throughout the entire SRE route, including a couple of under-car cams rather inelegantly zip-tied on the fly for limited stretches with mixed results. More than 4TB of video. Ugh. Talk about content fatigue.

 

Anyway, strategic placement of easy-to-access camera mounts has been a key objective from square one. However, I prefer Contour cameras for their better form factor in tight places and ability to support an entire range of filters and other traditional video enhancement accessories. Along with the camera mounts, I'm also working on ways to incorporate discrete LED strips to provide sufficient lighting for both higher-speed video and to improve the general quality of the video altogether. But getting the mechanical suspension in-place and locked-down is, of course, the the first priority.

 

More to come.

[Madlock]

 

I believe one uses at least some poly while the other is full heim. Not 100% sure.

 

Regarding Vorschlag...I've followed Terry's exploits regularly and since he first started modifying his (then) newly acquired GT. If anyone can test a system he can! To be fair, I believe the predominant use he puts his cars through is auto cross as well as street driving. He commented early about looking into rod ends but hasn't acted on them as far as I know. As far as the design, I've yet to see any negative comments from him either. To be fair, he's also a vendor for WL product line. So while I trust his reviews he also isn't going to shoot himself in the foot. I'll contact him regarding a few things and see what he has to say.

 

Tob

 

 

It's also important to note that Griggs requires use of the TA 8.8 axle cover to provide sufficient clearance which, in addition to adding nearly $300 of additional cost may or may not be able to accommodate the '13 Track Package cooling plumbing and would at least require additional machining to create them.

[jnf]

Madlock, your suspension looks amazing.

Looking forward to your review after you get to drive it.

You have obviously found a great tech to work with.

Very nice.

[Tob]

It's also important to note that Griggs requires use of the TA 8.8 axle cover to provide sufficient clearance which, in addition to adding nearly $300 of additional cost may or may not be able to accommodate the '13 Track Package cooling plumbing and would at least require additional machining to create them.

 

 

Actually, Griggs uses the cover simply as a foundation to support (from triangulated points) a drilled/tapped aluminum plate. Griggs' demographic tends to be a bit more hardcore, so accommodating the plumbing of the '13 was never part of their original design. Along those lines, NASA AI, AIX, Outlaw, etc, racers simply use AN fittings and kits such as the type offered by Rehagen - with custom tapped locations of course. Then again, I'd venture to guess that anyone that was going to tear up tracks across the country in their '13 that also wanted Griggs' suspension pieces would have ordered the car sans cooling (Track) package to begin with. Much the same, the system from Cortex provides tapped locations for a custom cooling system (and temperature sensor) to be incorporated along with their Watts and/or torque arm. Cortex' system is specified in a newly created Mustang race series in the SCCA SF Region. It'll be interesting to see if any axle coolers are even used.

 

 

Looking at your latest photos, specifically the passenger side spacers/bushings/etc...is the top bolt that runs through the upper link torqued? Seeing that the bottom aluminum spacer appears to be tight, is the top?

 

[Kevin Patten]

I notice in the pic taken on the rack ( just below the pic unacceptable slop ) that the LCA does not look too level . Why have the relocate brackets if you are not going to make the adjustment ? Tob - I'm currently building a SPEC MUSTANG and while the rear axle cooler is allowed nobody has put one in yet . It is a very colorful rear suspension Madlock - you should get Skittles to sponsor you . :D

[Madlock]

Actually, Griggs uses the cover simply as a foundation to support (from triangulated points) a drilled/tapped aluminum plate.

 

I hear you. I meant to point it out from a cost perspective as, at some point either earlier in this thread or another, the whole issue of how much each system cost seemed to have become an end-all-be-all criterion.

 

Looking at your latest photos, specifically the passenger side spacers/bushings/etc...is the top bolt that runs through the upper link torqued? Seeing that the bottom aluminum spacer appears to be tight, is the top?

 

Probably not.he was in the process of starting to lock everything down from the center out. I'm sure it will be. He was about 1/3 of the way through applying thread locker and torquing everything after having repositioned the pivot stantion and centered the entire axle.

 

I notice in the pic taken on the rack ( just below the pic unacceptable slop ) that the LCA does not look too level . Why have the relocate brackets if you are not going to make the adjustment ? Tob - I'm currently building a SPEC MUSTANG and while the rear axle cooler is allowed nobody has put one in yet . It is a very colorful rear suspension Madlock - you should get Skittles to sponsor you . :D

 

 

"Level" relative to what? The ground? The LCA isn't level - nor will it be with the relocation brackets whose entire purpose is to lower the LCA's trailing end. The angle would've been even more severe if I'd chosen the most severe (lowest) setting for maximum forward bite. As configured, the entire rear suspension is now remarkably neutral with very little relative static load - which is exactly how I want it before testing it and making adjustments.

 

The suspension components are red or black like the rest of the car. Only the WhiteLine bushings are yellow which are generally visible at angles parallel to the axle, but they're the same color as the Bilstein's, Team Queer Eye can chase me down in the paddock if they object.

[Kevin Patten]

I hear you. I meant to point it out from a cost perspective as, at some point either earlier in this thread or another, the whole issue of how much each system cost seemed to have become an end-all-be-all criterion.

 

 

 

Probably not.he was in the process of starting to lock everything down from the center out. I'm sure it will be. He was about 1/3 of the way through applying thread locker and torquing everything after having repositioned the pivot stantion and centered the entire axle.

 

 

 

"Level" relative to what? The ground? The LCA isn't level - nor will it be with the relocation brackets whose entire purpose is to lower the LCA's trailing end. The angle would've been even more severe if I'd chosen the most severe (lowest) setting for maximum forward bite. As configured, the entire rear suspension is now remarkably neutral with very little relative static load - which is exactly how I want it before testing it and making adjustments.

 

The suspension components are red or black like the rest of the car. Only the WhiteLine bushings are yellow which are generally visible at angles parallel to the axle, but they're the same color as the Bilstein's, Team Queer Eye can chase me down in the paddock if they object.

 

The reference was to move the LCA UP 1 hole , Funny in the pics the springs and sway bars look BLUE. I'm sure your team will find you were ever you may be but , I thought you said you wanted a street suspension ( not racing , not welded , not spherical bearing and was quiet ) . All of us are still waiting for the driving ( dynamic ) results.

[Madlock]

The reference was to move the LCA UP 1 hole , Funny in the pics the springs and sway bars look BLUE. I'm sure your team will find you were ever you may be but , I thought you said you wanted a street suspension ( not racing , not welded , not spherical bearing and was quiet ) . All of us are still waiting for the driving ( dynamic ) results.

 

 

They are BLUE. CAPSLOCK BLUE in fact, which I insisted upon before signing for it. I'm surprised you missed the springs. They're CAPSLOCK BLUE too, and I'm sure they're pictured somewhere too. I'd hate for you to have overlooked them since it seems to matter so much. Then again, the FR-3 parts are uniformly powdercoated from the factory and easily recognizable as such. Powder coating them all over again would be a little silly, especially at a point when I'm not yet entirely certain this will be the suspension configuration in its final form.

 

Should I ever happen to come across anything finished in Wanker White, I'll be sure to shoot you the link.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

They are BLUE. CAPSLOCK BLUE in fact, which I insisted upon before signing for it. I'm surprised you missed the springs. They're CAPSLOCK BLUE too, and I'm sure they're pictured somewhere too. I'd hate for you to have overlooked them since it seems to matter so much.

 

 

I don't know if you're a asshole in person but you sure do come across one on this forum (in text).

 

You've got some real good information to share but your delivery REALLY needs work.

 

 

Your welcome,

 

Phill

[Tob]

Ahh...a group of guys, each with different backgrounds and from different parts of the country, get together to discuss some of the instruments that drive their passion. I guess a bit of 'heat' isn't unexpected but we've all got thick skin, yes?

 

Props to you for your efforts, Madlock.

[Kevin Patten]

Any progress on your end Patrick ?

[patrickshelby]

Any progress on your end Patrick ?

 

I am in a business (very) stressed period, so the Shelby has to wait a little.

I am having two little parts fabricated to improve the watts kit a bit.

I'll show that here when ready...in a week, I have been told.

I also have my SVT-TVS kit to bolt on...but it's starting to snow outside, so it does not make sense to rush anything.

Unfortunately...

[svt13]

I am in a business (very) stressed period, so the Shelby has to wait a little.

I am having two little parts fabricated to improve the watts kit a bit.

I'll show that here when ready...in a week, I have been told.

I also have my SVT-TVS kit to bolt on...but it's starting to snow outside, so it does not make sense to rush anything.

Unfortunately...

 

 

What are you changing on it to improve it? If its something good tell who ever is fabricating it to make 2 of them and I'll buy from them too seriously.

[Madlock]

Drove for the first time today on the new suspension and Watts Link and I'm very happy with it at first blush. The WhiteLine Elastomer Bushings were really strange at fist. They sounded like wet sneakers on marble for the first few miles but quickly grew silent as the grease worked through them fully.

 

I'm very pleased with the new stance and the new ride properties which, at least during spirited road driving, seem more "precise" than different. The car now sits about an inch lower in the rear and 3/4" lower up-front, with the L Springs having eliminated about 1/4" of rake. From the center of the front and rear axle to their respective fender wells are 15" and 15.5" respectively at static load. I'm also testing about 1.5 degrees of negative pinion angle to compensate for the relocated LCA mounts and resulting additional forward bite - which is considerable. Launches are VERY planted even with my set of touring wheels/tires on the car.

 

Note: Despite being 19" all around, the rear wheels are -1 sized to a 40 profile to maintain the OE 28" diameter.

 

 

The only surprise was a clunk at the onset of acceleration and deceleration - likely to the UCA bolt not having been fully re-torqued after repositioning the UCA while setting the pinion angle. All good - part of locking down the final geometry. Otherwise, the Adjustable Sway Bar Links, Shelby Transmission Cooling Duct, Caster/Camber Plates and braided Ford Racing/Goodridge brake lines each went as expected. Was very surprised by how much more brake pedal I had - more likely due to the recent bleed than the lines given the limited amount of driving with them so far. I'll be fitting a spare high-speed splitter to ensure sufficient ground clearance with the lowered stance.

 

The Shelby Transmission cooler is both very functional and a nice little dress-up piece that's pretty inexpensive as far as Shelby parts go. It simply bolts in place of the cross-brace and is clean as can be.

 

 

 

The WhiteLine W/L is silent and the rear end is as balanced and stable as I've ever driven - noticeably better than the Panhard bar even under aggressive street cornering. I'm looking forward to Hurricane Sandy being over with so I can first take the car to several sections of local roads that will test the set-up more thoroughly and then getting it on to a track farther South to take a few laps in anger. About the only specific adjustment I've requested is to set the forward stabilizer bar to its most aggressive adjustment point to further mitigate nose dive on turn-on to the maximum degree. Hopefully the effect upon everyday driving won't be too much of a compromise.

 

I'm also very please with the Shelby Adjustable Caster/Camber plates. They're not very sexy, but they're very well-made. My only constructive criticism would've been a grommet to fit around the tower opening to protect the edges from the top of the shock during adjustment - and perhaps a cap for the top of the shock itself. At its particular price point, there's really no excuse for it not improving the aesthetics a bit too.

 

 

No more work to be done for the next few days as the storm rolls through. But once everything is re-torqued, wiped down and the Shelby Rear Strut Brace is installed in the trunk (after swapping-out the Shaker Sub for the Kicker Box), the car should be back on the road just in time to for perhaps a week or two of the kind of driving I've been waiting for - right before going into winter storage. I'm just glad both cars are now a couple hundred miles inland at much higher elevations that's (hopefully) out of the storm's path and harm's way.

 

Of course, I won't know more fully about the true performance characteristic improvements until I can drive the car in a relevant setting. But, once everything's re-torqued, I'm very glad to have achieved my first goal of choosing components that haven't degraded the car's everyday driving properties. More to follow subject to circumstances.

[Tob]

That's certainly a clean and unique looking car. The color of the FRPP/Boss 'X' brace is appropriate given that color combination as well, as the red/white is a natural for it. I may paint my own Vista down the road for a better match.

 

Those Maximum Motorsports caster/camber plates are easily the best you can get. There's a reason that CS picked them to affix their name to. They use the highest quality 'sphericals' with everything they sell. What alignment numbers did you settle on?

 

Good luck with the storm. Hopefully all that work is unscathed. I'm on the other side of NY and preparing for the rain/winds/snow/power outages. Sounds like a two day battering. Yikes!

[Kevin Patten]

Normally I would not do this however you have compelled me to Madlock

 

Post #21 - If you were so concerned about color and went to the extent of "re-powder coating" the watts assembly to color key then why are you making the comments towards your blue springs and sway bars (posts #103 and others).

 

Post #31 - Your basic ranting ( probably due to no responses to your other watts linkage posting " Traditional(Fays2) vs. billet". Yet with in the past two months you have self appointed oneself as an "expert" on watts with out even picking up a wrench yourself.

 

Post #37 - 1) Clunking noise is due to worn or cheap/low quality spherical ends or NOT checking the fitment.

2) Theoretical design ideal as you can envision - all I can say is "open your eyes"

3) Yet another of your references to "re-powder coat to color match" (not mine -yours and yes it seems like YOU are hung up on that issue)

4) Coolant flow in the diff ? WRONG FLUID - coolant goes in the radiator - gear oil in the differential

5) Did you even take the car out for a ride after these upgrades/mods and before the W/L watts ? Doubt it - never shared that part - too bad - would have like to heard about it.

 

Post #41 - FINALLY you have some quality insights to share ! (but still hung up on the "color matching" of components.

 

Post #44 - 3-4 degrees difference here is not " a pretty radical balance shift".

 

Post #49 - Thanks for correcting YOUR posting title and NO it doesn't matter - not one bit.

 

Post #54 - Informative but, " supposedly expressing " ?

 

Post #56 - There goes that " Know everything based upon NO experience" attitude but, there is at least an underlying comment worth noting.

 

Post #60 & #63 - just showing your arrogance.

 

Post #67 - Lots of pics - obviously NO testing was done prior to W/L watts install and "FR3 pack additional lowering warranted use of upper stantion mount" - WRONG - but your tech changed that later on (post #94).

 

Posts #71 H - BIAS. Lets talk to the guy getting his hands dirty - not the guy " oh -ah costs is no object "

 

Post # 75 - DENIAL and more attitude

 

Post # 82 - Humorous but , still full of attitude and $ spent shame

 

Post #89 - TRUE but, hypocritical !

 

Post#92 - x-box experience doesn't count

 

Post #94 - under car cameras ? Please - enough of the arrogance! ( I'll just stick with my data acquisition set up for dedicated race cars )

 

Post #96 - I agree - YOU need LED strip lighting under your car ( but what color - wanker white or tampon red ? )

 

Post#97 - I thought "costs is no object" now you're talking like a "GT forum owner "

 

Post #101 - AHHH - yes - There's that attitude again.

 

Post #103 - "RE-POWDER COATING = SILLY" really? look back @post#21

 

Post#109 - More pics - More parts - SOME info - some spherical parts - still worried about looking "sexy" and price point . (note - sway bars don't affect nose dive unless in bind).

 

All in all an interesting post - I feel that you did NOT do justice to the Whiteline watts because you got too much into yourself and the overall build - too bad because it does qualify as a viable piece for Shelby owners to consider . Price is high , has a couple ( just a few) points of concern , and limited number of distributors. I MUST ADD THAT THIS IS JMO. You and Snookie enjoy the ride Madlock and P.S. - Give that tech of yours a BIG FAT CASH bonus for what he/she must have had to put up with.

[patrickshelby]

[Madlock]

I knew there was a tool missing. :sigh:

[svt13]

Normally I would not do this however you have compelled me to Madlock

 

Post #21 - If you were so concerned about color and went to the extent of "re-powder coating" the watts assembly to color key then why are you making the comments towards your blue springs and sway bars (posts #103 and others).

 

Post #31 - Your basic ranting ( probably due to no responses to your other watts linkage posting " Traditional(Fays2) vs. billet". Yet with in the past two months you have self appointed oneself as an "expert" on watts with out even picking up a wrench yourself.

 

Post #37 - 1) Clunking noise is due to worn or cheap/low quality spherical ends or NOT checking the fitment.

2) Theoretical design ideal as you can envision - all I can say is "open your eyes"

3) Yet another of your references to "re-powder coat to color match" (not mine -yours and yes it seems like YOU are hung up on that issue)

4) Coolant flow in the diff ? WRONG FLUID - coolant goes in the radiator - gear oil in the differential

5) Did you even take the car out for a ride after these upgrades/mods and before the W/L watts ? Doubt it - never shared that part - too bad - would have like to heard about it.

 

Post #41 - FINALLY you have some quality insights to share ! (but still hung up on the "color matching" of components.

 

Post #44 - 3-4 degrees difference here is not " a pretty radical balance shift".

 

Post #49 - Thanks for correcting YOUR posting title and NO it doesn't matter - not one bit.

 

Post #54 - Informative but, " supposedly expressing " ?

 

Post #56 - There goes that " Know everything based upon NO experience" attitude but, there is at least an underlying comment worth noting.

 

Post #60 & #63 - just showing your arrogance.

 

Post #67 - Lots of pics - obviously NO testing was done prior to W/L watts install and "FR3 pack additional lowering warranted use of upper stantion mount" - WRONG - but your tech changed that later on (post #94).

 

Posts #71 H - BIAS. Lets talk to the guy getting his hands dirty - not the guy " oh -ah costs is no object "

 

Post # 75 - DENIAL and more attitude

 

Post # 82 - Humorous but , still full of attitude and $ spent shame

 

Post #89 - TRUE but, hypocritical !

 

Post#92 - x-box experience doesn't count

 

Post #94 - under car cameras ? Please - enough of the arrogance! ( I'll just stick with my data acquisition set up for dedicated race cars )

 

Post #96 - I agree - YOU need LED strip lighting under your car ( but what color - wanker white or tampon red ? )

 

Post#97 - I thought "costs is no object" now you're talking like a "GT forum owner "

 

Post #101 - AHHH - yes - There's that attitude again.

 

Post #103 - "RE-POWDER COATING = SILLY" really? look back @post#21

 

Post#109 - More pics - More parts - SOME info - some spherical parts - still worried about looking "sexy" and price point . (note - sway bars don't affect nose dive unless in bind).

 

All in all an interesting post - I feel that you did NOT do justice to the Whiteline watts because you got too much into yourself and the overall build - too bad because it does qualify as a viable piece for Shelby owners to consider . Price is high , has a couple ( just a few) points of concern , and limited number of distributors. I MUST ADD THAT THIS IS JMO. You and Snookie enjoy the ride Madlock and P.S. - Give that tech of yours a BIG FAT CASH bonus for what he/she must have had to put up with.

\

 

Lol this made me laugh. Albino I have been driving my car stock for a while. I will be installing the watts link by itself and I'll post a review on how much difference it makes. Though the only useful bit from this thread were those pictures and such so now my mechanic can breeeze right through the installation and already will know what to change to make it work.

[Kevin Patten]

svt13,

Can't wait to hear your comments on the W/L watts, If I may suggest - use high temp silicone on the mount bolt threads of the x-brace mount bolts and on the threads of the pivot bolt ( any bolt going into aluminum really ) instead of using locktite ,so in case you need to change the setting height you won't take the chance of mulling the threads when taking the bolts out . JMO P.S. - To all members living on the east coast - our thoughts and prayers are with you all during the storm - may you and your families come through safe and sound. Some of the guys in the 129th are flying out of Moffet Field today to aid those in need. Safe passage to all.

[Tob]

Madlock, did you make it through the Sandy ok? The car?

[patrickshelby]

Madlock, did you make it through the Sandy ok? The car?

 

+1

Anybody else in the area?

[89Saleen215]

Curious if there was any mention of not running the rear sway bar with the WL peice. I know they sell one as part of their system.

 

Does the WL piece allow the rear roll center to be lowered? If I understood the above posts correctly the bottom position is neutral not really lower.

[Madlock]

 

+1

Anybody else in the area?

 

 

It's a mess, but I'm far luckier than most. No power and only barely mobile service, but we've set up camp well inland.

 

I moved both cars well out of harm's way a few hundred miles inland before it struck. Hoping for electricity some time next week.

 

I figure when I'll again have a chance to even think about the W/L, others who've been driving it around their keyboards should have a pretty good idea by then I whether or not it'll perform well or if I'll like it.

 

I gotta say though hurricane Sandy's NVH was a real bitch.

[Kevin Patten]

Curious if there was any mention of not running the rear sway bar with the WL peice. I know they sell one as part of their system.

 

Does the WL piece allow the rear roll center to be lowered? If I understood the above posts correctly the bottom position is neutral not really lower.

 

I have not heard of anything about NOT running a rear sway bar. The W/L rear sway bar clamps onto the axle housing and has the end links going to the factory body mounts which tells you that their sway bar is narrow and does not go all the way out to the shock mount brackets ( where the distance is greater during axle articulation/body roll ) making it less effective. If you look at Madlock's post #94 you will see that the 2 positions for the W/L watts is the upper position at the axle centerline and the lower setting is at the pinion gear centerline - many prefer it to be lower than what the W/L unit allows but , it could be enough depending on what spring rates ( and if they are a variable rate ) you use with the W/L watts. This is why we waiting to find out from those who have installed what their opinions / observations are after putting one in.