08KR525 Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 Good info Kona. I have pretty much made up my mind to go with the DSS cf shaft. I have read nothing but positive reviews and no one has had to measure before they place their order. They seem to have great customer service too, which to me is as important as the product. Kona, will PST shorten the ds so that you can put the rear in the right place, since they already have it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrickshelby Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Phill is "lucky" to have such a failure instead of the driveshaft going away from the front yoke and dangling on the road! It could have been disastrous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwright Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Nope. The problem was on the other end. The aluminum U-joint yoke broke loose from the carbon fiber tube and was spinning inside of the CF shaft. It felt like a failed clutch in that the engine would rev/free-wind when I got into the powerband. I originally thought it WAS a clutch. I put a witness mark across both ends then got it to 'slip' while on stands with the E-brake set. The marks moved (substantially) and confirmed my suspicion. It happened on a 1-2 "short shift" (but under power), on the street (not on a sticky dragstrip launch pad) on OEM/Street tires. That's what concerns me. If it was under a high stress circumstance I might be less inclined to be worried. I shifted it from 1st to 2nd and got a LOUD "smack". And when I say loud, I mean LOUD. After that the engine would rev when I hit boost or gave it a lot of throttle. And it continually got worse. I also noted a "squeek-CLUNK" going from forward to reverse or reverse to forward (the yoke slipping one way, than the other way). PST was trying to blame me because I moved my rear end back in the car 1/2 inch...to compensate for the driveshaft that was 1/2" too long that Justin said I needed. He said they were seeming them at 51-1/2" but when I got it, it wouldn't go between the flanges (it was too long). I talked to PST and they said they were seeing them at 50" which is 1/2" shorter than what I had and what I should have had in the first place. I just moved my axle back (w/Roush adjustable UCA/LCA's) 1/2" in the chassis to allow the shaft to be used without sending it to PST and having it shortened for $200.oo. PST finally realized why I moved my axle and just NOW (after 4 months) asked me to ship it back to them (at their expense). I remains to be seen what I'll get back. I shall report in full if/when I do. Phill This exact same situation happened to me as well. The bond between the front billet yoke and carbon fibre tube let go (the car was running stock power at that time), causing a temporary squealing sound when the clutch was engaged (pedal out). However, PST' response was much better to my concerns than was yours, all it took was an e-mail describing my dilemma and a short video of me spinning, by hand, the yoke inside the CF tube. Within 20 minutes of sending the e-mail I got a response saying "We have improved our bonding technology since that shaft was made" and "please return the shaft for repairs", I paid for the shipping to PST, they covered the repairs and shipping back to me. I've had no problems since, eventhough I'm currently making 703 rwhp. If the DS fails in the future, I'll probably go an aluminium tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 This exact same situation happened to me as well. The bond between the front billet yoke and carbon fibre tube let go (the car was running stock power at that time), causing a temporary squealing sound whe the clutch was engaged. Yep, that's *exactly* what happened to mine. But my yoke wasn't quite as loose so I could drive the car with low power but as soon as i steppd on it, it would slip. But having said that, this isn't good. PST said they have NEVER had a problem like this before (and hence another reason they were pointing fingers at me). When did yours fail? I mean, how long ago (e.g. Was mine first like PST said or was yours before mine)? And now I"m wondering if I had "the new/improved" bonding compound, which should also be apparent by when yours happened. If mine fails again, I'm not willing to just throw away $1200 and buy a aluminum shaft. That IS however what I've wanted to do. If PST refunds me (in event of a second failure) I'll definitely dump the CF for a aluminum shaft. We shall see, Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwright Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Phill is "lucky" to have such a failure instead of the driveshaft going away from the front yoke and dangling on the road! It could have been disastrous! Would it really be that disastrous? Isn't one of the benefits of carbon fibre is that it shatters on impact, absorbing energy in the process? So one good smack and it turns into a spinnning bunch of fibres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Phill is "lucky" to have such a failure instead of the driveshaft going away from the front yoke and dangling on the road! It could have been disastrous! Phill is more than lucky, Phill is smart. Phill has a Steda Driveshaft Loop and brace under his car! Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Good info Kona. I have pretty much made up my mind to go with the DSS cf shaft. I have read nothing but positive reviews and no one has had to measure before they place their order. They seem to have great customer service too, which to me is as important as the product. Kona, will PST shorten the ds so that you can put the rear in the right place, since they already have it? Do you have a link to the site that sells the DSS CF shaft? Does it have a CV joint on one end? Both ends (like the OE one has)? Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwright Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Yep, that's *exactly* what happened to mine. But my yoke wasn't quite as loose so I could drive the car with low power but as soon as i steppd on it, it would slip. But having said that, this isn't good. PST said they have NEVER had a problem like this before (and hence another reason they were pointing fingers at me). When did yours fail? I mean, how long ago (e.g. Was mine first like PST said or was yours before mine)? And now I"m wondering if I had "the new/improved" bonding compound, which should also be apparent by when yours happened. If mine fails again, I'm not willing to just throw away $1200 and buy a aluminum shaft. That IS however what I've wanted to do. If PST refunds me (in event of a second failure) I'll definitely dump the CF for a aluminum shaft. We shall see, Phill The shaft was purchased winter of 2010/2011 but wasn't installed till late spring 2011. The shaft completely failed in April/May of this year (2012) within 5 miles of me noticing the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 The shaft was purchased winter of 2010/2011 but wasn't installed till late spring 2011. The shaft completely failed in April/May of this year (2012) within 5 miles of me noticing the problem. Damn. Identical to my purchase, installation and failure. What was your first inclination of the problem and how did it occur? Mine was on a 1-2 shift. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwright Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Damn. Identical to my purchase, installation and failure. What was your first inclination of the problem and how did it occur? Mine was on a 1-2 shift. Phill The story is that the club was on a cruise on some backroads when I had to pull over for an urgent "Pit Stop" while the rest of the club carried on. When I had "Drained the Radiator" I had to catch up with club, this required some agressive driving, It wasn't until I went WOT in third gear on a straight stretch that I felt some "Slipping" my first thought was, great my clutch is slipping. So I backed off a little, the slipping stopped and I finally caught up with the rest of the club. I thought I could baby what I thought was a failing clutch until I got home, but it wasn't to be. It didn't take too long before shaft started slipping at lower and lower rpms before it failed completely leaving me stranded on the side of the road. Thankfully the club stopped and waited with me (No Mustang Left Behind) until CAA showed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdrawkit Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Back in June of 2011 I asked our mechanic (race shop) to order me a 1 piece D/S...His supplier said there were too many problems with them and recommended NOT to try one untill HE was satisfied by his SUPPLIER that all concerns were ADDRESSED...Last August he still was NOT satisfied with the answers he got back and told Nick to tell me to hold off untill he was sure he wasn't caught in the middle of supplier and buyer...After reading many threads including this one ..I am still LEARY of this upgrade...I will contact REVAN RACING and try and get some postive feedbak..NO one here wants to be the middle man cause of the problems.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Back in June of 2011 I asked our mechanic (race shop) to order me a 1 piece D/S...His supplier said there were too many problems with them and recommended NOT to try one untill HE was satisfied by his SUPPLIER that all concerns were ADDRESSED...Last August he still was NOT satisfied with the answers he got back and told Nick to tell me to hold off untill he was sure he wasn't caught in the middle of supplier and buyer...After reading many threads including this one ..I am still LEARY of this upgrade...I will contact REVAN RACING and try and get some postive feedbak..NO one here wants to be the middle man cause of the problems.... I had NOTHING BUT positive feed-back for PST...Before mine failed. And again, under normal street driving conditions with OEM tires. Not on slicks, on a sticky race launch pad, but on a public street (asphalt) on OEM Goodyear F-1 tires. On a 1-2 "short shift" (early in the RPM range). Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 This exact same situation happened to me as well. The bond between the front billet yoke and carbon fibre tube let go (the car was running stock power at that time), causing a temporary squealing sound when the clutch was engaged (pedal out). However, PST' response was much better to my concerns than was yours, all it took was an e-mail describing my dilemma and a short video of me spinning, by hand, the yoke inside the CF tube. Within 20 minutes of sending the e-mail I got a response saying "We have improved our bonding technology since that shaft was made" and "please return the shaft for repairs", I paid for the shipping to PST, they covered the repairs and shipping back to me. I've had no problems since, eventhough I'm currently making 703 rwhp. I just got a interesting call from PST. I think I spoke with Mark. He told me they've never had a failure like this. I told him about your (Denis) post on TS and he got tongue tied...Uhh, errr, welll, ummm, ahhh, I uhhh, ummm..... I'm getting a new driveshaft made as I write (according to him). Thanks for your information, Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwright Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I just got a interesting call from PST. I think I spoke with Mark. He told me they've never had a failure like this. I told him about your (Denis) post on TS and he got tongue tied...Uhh, errr, welll, ummm, ahhh, I uhhh, ummm..... I'm getting a new driveshaft made as I write (according to him). Thanks for your information, Phill If it's Mark Veldhuis it's the same person that I dealt with. If you pm me your home e-mail address I'll forward you my the e-mail to PST with video and his response for your viewing pleasure or records. Ya gotta love the internet!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwright Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I had NOTHING BUT positive feed-back for PST...Before mine failed. And again, under normal street driving conditions with OEM tires. Not on slicks, on a sticky race launch pad, but on a public street (asphalt) on OEM Goodyear F-1 tires. On a 1-2 "short shift" (early in the RPM range). Phill Same with me. I did my research, it seemed that getting a vibration free one piece DS was a crap shoot at best because of the use of a slip yoke at the rear. PST was ont only one at that time that use a OEM type CV joint which eliminated the vibration, and there was nary a complaint on the web about any failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Same with me. I did my research, it seemed that getting a vibration free one piece DS was a crap shoot at best because of the use of a slip yoke at the rear. PST was ont only one at that time that use a OEM type CV joint which eliminated the vibration, and there was nary a complaint on the web about any failures. Yep, same here. So far your experience and my experience seem to have run parallel lives. Month/date/situation/etc.. When Mark was "hmmm-ing" and "errr-ing" I said "I think his name is Denis" and that's when he moved on to why they don't use a slip-yoke. I DO like the fact that there's a CV joint on one end over the other 1-pc items available. I looked at the one Shelby has in there musuem store and that's the fist thing I noticed, a u-joint on both ends with a slip-yoke/bellows to give them the ability to expand/contract under rear vehicle load. I hope this one holds up better than the first one. He told me the same thing about changing bonding (from 3-M to ???) agents. I think they need a deeper "inner tube" that goes inside of the CF tube, like the rear joint has to give it more surface area to bond to. Use a magnet on the rear section to see how far up the steel innner tube on the rear CV goes into the CF shaft (I did)! Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipwright Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Yep, same here. So far your experience and my experience seem to have run parallel lives. Month/date/situation/etc.. When Mark was "hmmm-ing" and "errr-ing" I said "I think his name is Denis" and that's when he moved on to why they don't use a slip-yoke. I DO like the fact that there's a CV joint on one end over the other 1-pc items available. I looked at the one Shelby has in there musuem store and that's the fist thing I noticed, a u-joint on both ends with a slip-yoke/bellows to give them the ability to expand/contract under rear vehicle load. I hope this one holds up better than the first one. He told me the same thing about changing bonding (from 3-M to ???) agents. I think they need a deeper "inner tube" that goes inside of the CF tube, like the rear joint has to give it more surface area to bond to. Use a magnet on the rear section to see how far up the steel innner tube on the rear CV goes into the CF shaft (I did)! Phill You may be ok. As I recently posted I drove the car with 736 crank HP (several dyno pulls included) from September to October then 808 crank HP (a few more dyno pulls) from October till I stored the car last weekend with no problems. Next year will be the determining factor, we'll see how it holds up after a year of high hp. I'm not sure why Shelby would use slip yokes as that seemed to be the problem with other aftermarket shafts that vibrate. Even the new OEM CF DS that the OP (sorry Hooper T for highjacking your thread) posted pictures of show CV joints at both ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Even the new OEM CF DS that the OP (sorry Hooper T for highjacking your thread) posted pictures of show CV joints at both ends. YEP! I noticed. And which is why I hope FRPP can get something together so the new DS can be retrofitted to earlier model years. Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Word is that FRPP won't be doing a kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Word is that FRPP won't be doing a kit. Okay. Has anyone figured out how to retrofit the '13 DS, tail shaft, housing, flange, etc. to a '12- yet? Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 It has been done, yes. I'm working on it as well. http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/svt-shelby-gt500-150/896908-retrofitting-13-gt500-carbon-fiber-driveshaft-07-12-gt500.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 It has been done, yes. I'm working on it as well. http://www.svtperfor...7-12-gt500.html VERY informative thread. And I think I answered my own question/concern about the weight difference between my PST CF DS and the '13 1-pc CF CS, along with the cause of my failure. I watched the vids you posted links to after I commented. They method they use for the CV joint union is *significantly* different from each other with FoMoCo not even using a bonding agent (press fit vs. bonded). Thanks, Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Phill, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I've done my best to collect as much relevant data as I can. I'm driven by the fact that I knew that this could be done and motivated because my 725hp WhippleMonster needs it. At this point, anyone with the money ought to be able to spend some time with their local machinist and whip something up for themselves. And I agree, the dry, press fit is unique. The factory really did their homework here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdrawkit Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 TOB GREAT INFO....THXS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 And I agree, the dry, press fit is unique. The factory really did their homework here. And at this point, tells me I *will* have another failure of my PST at some point in time. Glue won't last forever...... Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Phill, I was very close to pulling the trigger on either the DSS or the PST at about the same time you did. Both are reputable companies that I'm sure will keep improving their product line with new innovations as time passes. I'm sure there is a limit to the Ford CF shaft as well but I have yet to hear reliable commentary on it. I've seen some destructive testing that the aftermarket shaft companies have done and would love to see them test an OEM CF shaft. As I mentioned elsewhere, unless NEAPCO or Ford has a patent on the splined, dry fit ends, I don't understand why the aftermarket isn't reverse engineering here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 As I mentioned elsewhere, unless NEAPCO or Ford has a patent on the splined, dry fit ends, I don't understand why the aftermarket isn't reverse engineering here.. I agree 1000%. When talking with Mark he said they went through approx. 25 shaft failures (at speed) when engineering the CV joint vs. slip yoke/u-joint application. They (PST) claim their shafts are tested for torque (I can't remember the number but I believe it was over 1000 lb.') but "age" can't be tested nor can heat cycles. With the OEM H-pipe running right along side of the DS, I'm assuming the heat cycles may play a big part in the failure of the bonding agent too. And then we see single digit temps here in CO so it goes from 0d to 300d on extremes. I wonder if anyone at PST has seen the vid/pics you have of the splined/pressed FoMoCo CF shaft??? Thanks for your work/info, Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 Watch the following video a few times Phill. I don't know what method they used to fasten the steel end to the CF tube but you'll see how strong it is. Pay attention to the right end of the tube as it starts to buckle just before the test apparatus fails... DSS high speed testing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 Here's another where that first shaft was continuously cycled via twisting to a specific torque value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy49 Posted December 21, 2012 Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 Tob None of the videos work, all I get is a place card with a small blue circle with a cross bar. I am trying to view these on a Windows computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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