2013 Shelby GT500 Super Snake

[662HP631TQ]

A good friend of mine contacted yetserday Shelby to have his GT500 2012 SSed. His car is kona blue color and he wanted the stripe delete. They said: No, we cant do it, sorry!! So now he is debating if he the SS conversion and take off the stripes or not having the conversion...

 

Not get it! It isn't worth it unless he is going to be a "Collector" That is my conclusion to all this silliness. Don't get the SS if you have any reservation whatsoever about it. You can do the power upgrades yourself and get a faster car. If you are going to collect it, then by all means.

Otherwise, you are wasting money on something you ultimately aren't going to be 100% happy with. For me and my car.... NO COMPROMISES!

 

The Jay Lenos of the world can get the Super Snake, Ill keep my GT500, which will always be that GT500 no matter what. No more no less...Well maybe more power and handling!

Shelby isn't going to go out of business from the common man. They may lose a total of 10 sales maybe from guys like me and Phil not willing to compromise our likes (My apologies for grouping you into this Phil as it seems you like to keep it PC) and again, the Jay Lenos, Uber RIch, and those who don't care will make Shelby just as profitable, but they won't do what the vision ultimately was "Putting an affordable car in the hands of the common man" without compromises.

 

Anyway I am done ranting on this. It just really got under my skin. No matter what we will always have GT500's and that is all that is important to me!

[svt13]

Not get it! It isn't worth it unless he is going to be a "Collector" That is my conclusion to all this silliness. Don't get the SS if you have any reservation whatsoever about it. You can do the power upgrades yourself and get a faster car. If you are going to collect it, then by all means.

Otherwise, you are wasting money on something you ultimately aren't going to be 100% happy with. For me and my car.... NO COMPROMISES!

 

The Jay Lenos of the world can get the Super Snake, Ill keep my GT500, which will always be that GT500 no matter what. No more no less...Well maybe more power and handling!

Shelby isn't going to go out of business from the common man. They may lose a total of 10 sales maybe from guys like me and Phil not willing to compromise our likes (My apologies for grouping you into this Phil as it seems you like to keep it PC) and again, the Jay Lenos, Uber RIch, and those who don't care will make Shelby just as profitable, but they won't do what the vision ultimately was "Putting an affordable car in the hands of the common man" without compromises.

 

Anyway I am done ranting on this. It just really got under my skin. No matter what we will always have GT500's and that is all that is important to me!

 

 

The 13 gt500 is that vision. Not the 95k supersnakes lol. Or 200k shelby 1000s. Hell even the gt350 with all the good options gets to 85k.

[05mustangman]

 

 

The Jay Lenos of the world can get the Super Snake, Ill keep my GT500, which will always be that GT500 no matter what. No more no less...Well maybe more power and handling!

 

 

 

That is exactly how I feel. If I can't get a Super Snake I will make my car even better then the Super Snake. But to me it will always be a GT500, Don't need an SS to make me feel good. I've already built the car up and it is one step away from being bigger and badder then an SS. The way it has been said is that the GT500 is pretty much worthless compared to a Super Snake. I don't think that's true at all. As long as the car makes you happy that's the only thing that matters. How many people are gonna be around 35-40 years from now and still have these cars hoping to sell them to make a little money? Probably not a whole lot. Driving the GT500 around and just having fun with it is all that matters to me. Yes, having the ability to call it an SS would be cool but it's not necessary.

[Robert M]

I have read many of the ROI and "modified Super Snake" thoughts, what about the early cars, the ones that had a very short list of options as shown below. So you all are saying that adding SPP "correct" Super Snake parts from the current 2007-2009 Super Snake options list detracts from the car? It may detract? I don't know?

 

 

 

Below the other discussion.................

 

 

Do any of you regularly watch the 2007-2009 Super Snake prices, both asking and actual selling prices? Very few 725's (nice low mile examples) sell for less than about $65K with some going closer to $70K. What is the current value of a Joe Lunchbox modified GT500? $35K + or - with some even nearer to $32K? Even if a 725 sells for $60K (which is not common right now), much of the original $31,995 725 Super Snake cost has been recovered when you subtract the cost of the depreciated GT500 itself. If the car sells for $65K, which is more common, we are closer to recovering all of the upgrade cost. The Joe Lunchbox GT500's can't even get close to boasting that kind of return for $$$ spent. One main reason that a big hp Super Snake (real one - documented) sells for the $$$ that it does, right now, they are one of a few, not one of a large mass. Uniqueness also has a value, even to the regular enthusiast (not only the Jay Leno's).

 

 

..........and yes I know that many Super Snakes (2007-2009) have owners who are asking $75K, $79K, $85K etc. The current selling market is in the mid-$60Ks.........Real world. Using $35K for a realistic 2008 Coupe depreciation guidline (realized by all owners Super Snake or not), and $65K as a current realistic 725 selling price, the original (from that day) $31,995 has lost only $2K.

 

 

For some reason, people look at a Super Snake and don't take into account that it is a late model Shelby Mustang, there is no magic, it is depreciating just like any other GT500 of the same year, but it's CSM'ed Super Snake upgrade cost seems to be holding strong.

 

 

Has anyone compared 2008/09 GT500KR prices lately? $50K's? on an original $80K car? Again, late model depreciation............

 

 

R

[Amigo GT500]

I have read many of the ROI and "modified Super Snake" thoughts, what about the early cars, the ones that had a very short list of options as shown below. So you all are saying that adding SPP "correct" Super Snake parts from the current 2007-2009 Super Snake options list detracts from the car? It may detract? I don't know?

 

 

 

Below the other discussion.................

 

 

Do any of you regularly watch the 2007-2009 Super Snake prices, both asking and actual selling prices? Very few 725's (nice low mile examples) sell for less than about $65K with some going closer to $70K. What is the current value of a Joe Lunchbox modified GT500? $35K + or - with some even nearer to $32K? Even if a 725 sells for $60K (which is not common right now), much of the original $31,995 725 Super Snake cost has been recovered when you subtract the cost of the depreciated GT500 itself. If the car sells for $65K, which is more common, we are closer to recovering all of the upgrade cost. The Joe Lunchbox GT500's can't even get close to boasting that kind of return for $$$ spent. One main reason that a big hp Super Snake (real one - documented) sells for the $$$ that it does, right now, they are one of a few, not one of a large mass. Uniqueness also has a value, even to the regular enthusiast (not only the Jay Leno's).

 

 

..........and yes I know that many Super Snakes (2007-2009) have owners who are asking $75K, $79K, $85K etc. The current selling market is in the mid-$60Ks.........Real world. Using $35K for a realistic 2008 Coupe depreciation guidline (realized by all owners Super Snake or not), and $65K as a current realistic 725 selling price, the original (from that day) $31,995 has lost only $2K.

 

 

For some reason, people look at a Super Snake and don't take into account that it is a late model Shelby Mustang, there is no magic, it is depreciating just like any other GT500 of the same year, but it's CSM'ed Super Snake upgrade cost seems to be holding strong.

 

 

Has anyone compared 2008/09 GT500KR prices lately? $50K's? on an original $80K car? Again, late model depreciation............

 

 

R

 

Great and realist analysis!

[662HP631TQ]

I have read many of the ROI and "modified Super Snake" thoughts, what about the early cars, the ones that had a very short list of options as shown below. So you all are saying that adding SPP "correct" Super Snake parts from the current 2007-2009 Super Snake options list detracts from the car? It may detract? I don't know?

 

 

 

Below the other discussion.................

 

 

Do any of you regularly watch the 2007-2009 Super Snake prices, both asking and actual selling prices? Very few 725's (nice low mile examples) sell for less than about $65K with some going closer to $70K. What is the current value of a Joe Lunchbox modified GT500? $35K + or - with some even nearer to $32K? Even if a 725 sells for $60K (which is not common right now), much of the original $31,995 725 Super Snake cost has been recovered when you subtract the cost of the depreciated GT500 itself. If the car sells for $65K, which is more common, we are closer to recovering all of the upgrade cost. The Joe Lunchbox GT500's can't even get close to boasting that kind of return for $$$ spent. One main reason that a big hp Super Snake (real one - documented) sells for the $$$ that it does, right now, they are one of a few, not one of a large mass. Uniqueness also has a value, even to the regular enthusiast (not only the Jay Leno's).

 

 

..........and yes I know that many Super Snakes (2007-2009) have owners who are asking $75K, $79K, $85K etc. The current selling market is in the mid-$60Ks.........Real world. Using $35K for a realistic 2008 Coupe depreciation guidline (realized by all owners Super Snake or not), and $65K as a current realistic 725 selling price, the original (from that day) $31,995 has lost only $2K.

 

 

For some reason, people look at a Super Snake and don't take into account that it is a late model Shelby Mustang, there is no magic, it is depreciating just like any other GT500 of the same year, but it's CSM'ed Super Snake upgrade cost seems to be holding strong.

 

 

Has anyone compared 2008/09 GT500KR prices lately? $50K's? on an original $80K car? Again, late model depreciation............

 

 

R

 

 

Joe Lunchbox's personally modified ROI is the horsepower gains and more fun they might have at the track. It is going to depreciate anyway, but if you are going to dump money into it, it had beeter not be for a ROI of monetary value (Aside from a SS) Like I said, Shelby isn't losing any business by not conforming to what Joe Lunchbox wants, so if Joe Lunchbox wants modified stripes with upgrades costing 15K thne more power to him for saving himself the SS trouble. There is not problem with the SS, all of it makes sense. ROI isn't solely tied to $$ though returns could be in the way of track times or anything else, it really is realtive. So to add to the conversation, No matter what you do "You lose" money. It doesn't matter, how much you lose depends on if you want to feel happy about monetary return on investment or just care about having an awesome car. The point being don't buy the Shelby for ROI monetarily, SS might save you a little, but you still lose!

[svt13]

Joe Lunchbox's personally modified ROI is the horsepower gains and more fun they might have at the track. It is going to depreciate anyway, but if you are going to dump money into it, it had beeter not be for a ROI of monetary value (Aside from a SS) Like I said, Shelby isn't losing any business by not conforming to what Joe Lunchbox wants, so if Joe Lunchbox wants modified stripes with upgrades costing 15K thne more power to him for saving himself the SS trouble. There is not problem with the SS, all of it makes sense. ROI isn't solely tied to $$ though returns could be in the way of track times or anything else, it really is realtive. So to add to the conversation, No matter what you do "You lose" money. It doesn't matter, how much you lose depends on if you want to feel happy about monetary return on investment or just care about having an awesome car. The point being don't buy the Shelby for ROI monetarily, SS might save you a little, but you still lose!

 

 

It's probably more attractive because as someone pointed out before and I have researched into it too, all the 2008 etc shelbys with like 15k in mods are all selling for 33-35k at 20k miles. If you look at the blue book value for those miles that price range is what a "clean" shelby would sell at. Not even a perfect condition one. That would be 37k. So in the short run you could sell your car with mods to get some cash back. But it seems in the long run 4-5 years later all mods are worthless. The ROI for mods on a regular car is if you do a good job with them and they are popular ones, then your car will sell faster. The super snake you get all these mods but the value of the car increases so while you still lose you get some return no matter how many years pass.

 

This how I see it is the ONLY return on investment. But again I don't think you could drive an SS every day. It needs engine modifications to make that power as reliable as the car is in stock form.

[Robert M]

Joe Lunchbox's personally modified ROI is the horsepower gains and more fun they might have at the track. It is going to depreciate anyway, but if you are going to dump money into it, it had beeter not be for a ROI of monetary value (Aside from a SS) Like I said, Shelby isn't losing any business by not conforming to what Joe Lunchbox wants, so if Joe Lunchbox wants modified stripes with upgrades costing 15K thne more power to him for saving himself the SS trouble. There is not problem with the SS, all of it makes sense. ROI isn't solely tied to $$ though returns could be in the way of track times or anything else, it really is realtive. So to add to the conversation, No matter what you do "You lose" money. It doesn't matter, how much you lose depends on if you want to feel happy about monetary return on investment or just care about having an awesome car. The point being don't buy the Shelby for ROI monetarily, SS might save you a little, but you still lose!

 

 

Yes, these are not "day one" investments, and in reality, it "could" never be an investment. SA has a standard/guidline that "they" have put together for these cars. If a perspective buyer is not interested in part, or all of the package, then they can do something else, it is a free country. If someone doesn't like the parts and/or the price, don't buy, it is as simple as that.

 

This car was not put together as a drag racer, it was not put togather as a road racer, it was not put together as a trailer queen, it is a package that includes all of the above and would require tweaking for a specific use.

 

But I still ask...............If my car was limited to the very few options shown on my original Super Snake order form, and I decided to modify/add the $3500 Baer Rear Brake Upgrade that became available months after I received my finished car, does the addition of this "correct" Super Snake option devalue my Super Snake? Same with the Cooling System Upgrade, same with the 3.6LC KB? Does adding this highly sought after items to my Super Snake devalue it because I installed, or am going to install these upgrades? I have had the optional Super Snake interior installed in my Super Snake, it was not an option when my car went through, did this devalue my car? I bought the kit from Gary Disney through Shelby Performance Parts, I was given (by SPP) a local Tampa authorized shop to do the install (not back to SA/LV), did this devalue my car since Shelby did not install it?

 

I have read that the Shelby GT guys can or could buy the SC upgrade for there SGT, if they do a self install, and all of the SGT/SC documentation and identification is included from SA for this upgrade, did the owner devalue ther Shelby GT, by making it a SGT/SC with the upgrade purchased directly from SA?

 

 

 

 

R

[LuckySnake]

Considering Shelby has made a pretty good business of building SuperSnakes for that last several years, my guess is plenty.

 

They got the ball rolling by selliing a 67 for 1M, car collecting is seen as an investment to many and that train has left the station. Business 101.

[Robert M]

It's probably more attractive because as someone pointed out before and I have researched into it too, all the 2008 etc shelbys with like 15k in mods are all selling for 33-35k at 20k miles. If you look at the blue book value for those miles that price range is what a "clean" shelby would sell at. Not even a perfect condition one. That would be 37k. So in the short run you could sell your car with mods to get some cash back. But it seems in the long run 4-5 years later all mods are worthless. The ROI for mods on a regular car is if you do a good job with them and they are popular ones, then your car will sell faster. The super snake you get all these mods but the value of the car increases so while you still lose you get some return no matter how many years pass.

 

This how I see it is the ONLY return on investment. But again I don't think you could drive an SS every day. It needs engine modifications to make that power as reliable as the car is in stock form.

 

 

This is true too, a regular production GT500 is much more likely to have more miles added than a Super Snake (at least the larger hp Super Snakes). Because that is the general reality, this is what the prices are based on.

 

I agree with all that these cars are "dives" (dollar wise) right now, and that should not be a surprise to anyone, but reality also shows that the documented Super Snake package itself added to a regular production GT500 has held it's own so far in the resale world.

 

One other thing to mention about the regular production GT500 resale market............because there are soooo many for sale at any given time, it is much more of a buyers market than a sellers market, and then there are many buyers who are not interested in someone elses "beaten and possibly abused" self modded toy, so mods in these cases are $$$ detractions, so the field of buyers lessens.

 

 

 

 

 

R

[Robert M]

They got the ball rolling by selliing a 67 for 1M, car collecting is seen as an investment to many and that train has left the station. Business 101.

 

 

When I started down the Super Snake path, I remember when I had to place my $10K deposit, and my 2008 model was given CSM 581. I started to add just the deposits for 2008 Super Snakes, $10K x 581, and then the 2007 models, and the 2009's at that time...........Wow!!

 

..........and that was just the deposits.......

 

 

I agree that the collector car market has soften, maybe it is more like "reality" now. It got real crazy a few years ago, and the guys who paid the huge $$$ for some of these cars will never recover their "investment".

 

 

 

R

[2010KonaBlueGT]

But I still ask...............If my car was limited to the very few options shown on my original Super Snake order form, and I decided to modify/add the $3500 Baer Rear Brake Upgrade that became available months after I received my finished car, does the addition of this "correct" Super Snake option devalue my Super Snake? Same with the Cooling System Upgrade, same with the 3.6LC KB? Does adding this highly sought after items to my Super Snake devalue it because I installed, or am going to install these upgrades?

 

 

 

Simple answer...YES.

 

If those options were not available when you ordered your car, in the long run you WILL hurt the value of it.

 

I've been at car shows (one in particular, a Pontiac meet in San Jose CA) where guys were picking apart a VERY clean '67 GTO because it had the chrome rain gutters (stainless covers) added to it and it wasn't a available option on that particular car. Picky? I thought so. Realistic? You bet. A "Genuine" car is a genuine car, period.

 

Believe me, in XX years when someone is looking at your Super Snake and sees that you have unavailable options on it, YOU WILL lose judging points AND/OR financial value over the addition of them. And they WILL know (what was and was not available at the time).

 

 

Phill

[LuckySnake]

Simple answer...YES.

 

If those options were not available when you ordered your car, in the long run you WILL hurt the value of it.

 

I've been at car shows (one in particular, a Pontiac meet in San Jose CA) where guys were picking apart a VERY clean '67 GTO because it had the chrome rain gutters (stainless covers) added to it and it wasn't a available option on that particular car. Picky? I thought so. Realistic? You bet. A "Genuine" car is a genuine car, period.

 

Believe me, in XX years when someone is looking at your Super Snake and sees that you have unavailable options on it, YOU WILL lose judging points AND/OR financial value over the addition of them. And they WILL know (what was and was not available at the time).

 

 

Phill

 

I agree Phil, but for the average enthusiast (such as myself) period correct performance parts from the manufacturer (Ford & Shelby) doesn't seem to hurt the value at all and benefits the performance / cool factor big time. But when it comes down to splitting hairs, if a part isn't "stock" you will loose against an original car.These are problems I hope to have someday with my 07, ha, ha. Lucky for us, we don't all think or agree on exactly the same things and these great cars (some modified and some not) should be around for others to enjoy long after we are gone.

On an example, I would love to have a S H E L B Y intake on my 429 cj, I have only seen one and it was nice! It was on a beautifully restored 71 429 scj Mach 1. Man, the price of these period correct parts is amazing, like gold.

[Freak]

Just keep all the original parts, and don't do any mods that require drilling/cutting/whatever. That way if you want to sell it later on you can go back to stock.

 

Would those people ripping apart that Goat have had any idea that a different engine had been put in earlier, if the owner put the original one back in before the show? Not unless they were told.

[svt13]

The whole mod value thing is stupid IMO. If you do some crazy mods on the car and slap crap on to the point where its rattling, squeaking, engine blowing up, and bumpy, and scraping over everything then your mods should devalue a car compared to stock. But a car with ford or shelby parts or ANYTHING that is as good or better than OEM quality and done properly really should just add value to the car. Especially if they are mods that keep the factory warranty intack.

[Robert M]

Simple answer...YES.

 

If those options were not available when you ordered your car, in the long run you WILL hurt the value of it.

 

I've been at car shows (one in particular, a Pontiac meet in San Jose CA) where guys were picking apart a VERY clean '67 GTO because it had the chrome rain gutters (stainless covers) added to it and it wasn't a available option on that particular car. Picky? I thought so. Realistic? You bet. A "Genuine" car is a genuine car, period.

 

Believe me, in XX years when someone is looking at your Super Snake and sees that you have unavailable options on it, YOU WILL lose judging points AND/OR financial value over the addition of them. And they WILL know (what was and was not available at the time).

 

 

Phill

 

 

But then again I also remember a owner installed Paxton being on a 1967 GT350, original period correct, but purchased from Shelby after the car was sold, and that car fetched huge $$$ in comparision to a non-Paxton car, so there are some exceptions.

 

Because this has also crossed my mind (the value aspect), that is why I have not modded/cut/butchered any of my original parts or the car, I even bought a complete spare set of correct Super Snake Alcoa's for widening project so my originals would still be "original".

 

I also feel that the average buyer/enthusiast will first of all be looking for correct documentation, then correct SA options for the car. Many guys, unless you have followed the Super Snake builds since the early days, don't even know the very limited amount of options that were first offered, but they sure want the Super Snake options that are offered now. I wonder how valuable functional CAI will be in the future vs. not?

 

 

 

R

[Robert M]

One other thought on these option adds and for that matter production changes to the Super Snake...................Is there really a "B4 and After" list as options were added? Is there a "B4 and After" for the Granetelli adj. panhard bar that was used on the earlier Super Snakes vs. the BMR adj. bar that has been used more recently?

 

Is a judge going to know at what point these changes were made? We are not talking about items that were known not to be an option for a specific year car, we are talking about options that "were" available for these cars.

 

If you added something that was never offered as a Super Snake option, like my shifter ball shown below, then yes, that would be a "gig" on the judges clip board sheet. But I don't think that the MCA or any other judged event is going to have exact info. for when Super Snake options were added, like B4 CSMxxx and After CSMxxx. I don't even think that is documented at Shelby. When a production part was changed (like the panhard bars), they used the previous style bars and when they were no more, the new ones were installed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

R

[real_supersnake]

Just paid my deposit. Now have to figure out when and how to get the car to the Shelby shop. Talking with a member of the sales team about what options would be recommended for me, we were actually able to cut about 10% off the overall price. Really appreciated the one-on-one attention to help me decide which options to get.

[real_supersnake]

Just dropped off my GT500 for the SS package. Great way to end the 7th Annual Shelby Bash and Mustang 50th Celebration. I decided against the widebody as it would delay delivery until December and the price increased from $17K to $24K !!!

 

Jeremy from the sales team has been helping me through the process and the drop off couldn't have been easier. Now for the longest 120 days of my life !!

[hightorque3413]

Just dropped off my GT500 for the SS package. Great way to end the 7th Annual Shelby Bash and Mustang 50th Celebration. I decided against the widebody as it would delay delivery until December and the price increased from $17K to $24K !!!

 

Jeremy from the sales team has been helping me through the process and the drop off couldn't have been easier. Now for the longest 120 days of my life !!

Only 17k for SS package?

[SSSNAKE]

Only 17k for SS package?

 

I believe he's talking about the widebody conversion.

[Robert M]

 

I believe he's talking about the widebody conversion.

 

 

^^^I think so also...........

 

The entry level Super Snake upgrade for a 2013/14 is listed as $28,995 on my brochure and the power level stays at 662 for that level of upgrade cost.

 

 

 

R

[hightorque3413]

 

 

^^^I think so also...........

 

The entry level Super Snake upgrade for a 2013/14 is listed as $28,995 on my brochure and the power level stays at 662 for that level of upgrade cost.

 

 

 

R

ANY REASON WHY THEY RAISED THE PRICE ON THE WIDE BODY?

[SSSNAKE]

ANY REASON WHY THEY RAISED THE PRICE ON THE WIDE BODY?

 

I'll take a stab (in the dark) at this;

 

The demand was greater than the amount of labor available to do the conversions so Shelby decided to increase the "value" of the W/B conversion. (savvy business decision???) as I wouldn't surmise that the material costs had increased 30%+.

[hawkbarr]

Demand > Supply = Price Increase

[real_supersnake]

Got some good stick time in today with the good weather. Loving the SuperSnake upgrade!!

 

[OaktownACE]

Nice video. Do you have the 3.73 or 3.31 setup in your car?

 

Sounds mean!

[OaktownACE]

 

 

Simple answer...YES.

 

If those options were not available when you ordered your car, in the long run you WILL hurt the value of it.

 

I've been at car shows (one in particular, a Pontiac meet in San Jose CA) where guys were picking apart a VERY clean '67 GTO because it had the chrome rain gutters (stainless covers) added to it and it wasn't a available option on that particular car. Picky? I thought so. Realistic? You bet. A "Genuine" car is a genuine car, period.

 

Believe me, in XX years when someone is looking at your Super Snake and sees that you have unavailable options on it, YOU WILL lose judging points AND/OR financial value over the addition of them. And they WILL know (what was and was not available at the time).

 

 

Phill

It'd be a nice problem to have. I've added Steeda billet LCAs, relocation brackets, adj UCA and mount, stainless brake and clutch lines and a Bob's oil separator. All were done to make sure the car stayed straight and had a little more traction. I'm now Super Snaking my car. I've kept my original control arms, mounts, etc but my current parts are so much better and in truth probably safer given the increase in hp.

 

Maybe someday in 30+ years when my legs can't push the clutch anymore I'll have to put the originals back to maximize my dollars back, but if so that's a good problem to have because it'll mean there's still some value.

 

I was tempted to go all back to stock but the guys at Shelby said what I've got will handle way better.

[Jimmy Sak]

ANY REASON WHY THEY RAISED THE PRICE ON THE WIDE BODY?

 

They were stupid time extensive to build. I have one of the early ones and they could only do 2 cars per week with the molds they had...not sure what their capacity is now.

[real_supersnake]

Nice video. Do you have the 3.73 or 3.31 setup in your car?

 

Sounds mean!

3.73 after the SS upgrade. I had to re-learn how to drive it, totally different feel. It tries to jump out from under me when I am not paying attention....just like a horse I had growing up.