First Camaro ZL1 Reviews

[svtkeith]

Then why does the Ford GT, which is lighter and has less HP And Tq than the new 2013 Shelby have bigger rear wheels and tires, 315/40ZR19. I guess its just for looks and has nothing to do with traction or handling? Lets see what Jamal has for 2014, willing to guess he'll change his tune and the car will have bigger wheels and tires on all four corners. Yes I do like the looks of the ZL1, not the other Camero models (ie) Shelby's are different from other mustang models. I did learn how to drive a stick in a 69 Z28 Camero in the early 70's but my first car was a 66 GT Mustang. Come to think of it, I was watching the Barrett-Jackson Auction and the Camero's seem to be pretty popular when it came to bidding time.

 

 

 

I agree the wider the tires the bigger the contact patch so yeah there should be more tracktion...And they just make the car

 

look meaner like a muscle car should...My 09 Z06 has 325/30 ZR 19's rear and 275/35 ZR 18's front from the factory and

 

this thing handles like it's on rails like I'm sure the Ford GT does...Not to mention how they look from the back.

[ChrisSD]

The GT has completely different weight distribution.

[svttim]

Then why does the Ford GT, which is lighter and has less HP And Tq than the new 2013 Shelby have bigger rear wheels and tires, 315/40ZR19. I guess its just for looks and has nothing to do with traction or handling? Lets see what Jamal has for 2014, willing to guess he'll change his tune and the car will have bigger wheels and tires on all four corners. Yes I do like the looks of the ZL1, not the other Camero models (ie) Shelby's are different from other mustang models. I did learn how to drive a stick in a 69 Z28 Camero in the early 70's but my first car was a 66 GT Mustang. Come to think of it, I was watching the Barrett-Jackson Auction and the Camero's seem to be pretty popular when it came to bidding time.

 

 

Maybe because its a mid-engine car. Cant compare the two in any way

[ChrisSD]

Exactly. The GT500 is nose heavy. Wider tires screw up the steering too much. Too many sacrifices in handling/steering.

 

Camaro is near 50/50 so can have wider fronts.

[svtkeith]

So let me get this strait...The narrower the tires the better the car handles!!!!

 

 

I know that works in snow driving but doesn't make sense on the track.

[ChrisSD]

So let me get this strait...The narrower the tires the better the car handles!!!!

 

 

I know that works in snow driving but doesn't make sense on the track.

 

 

The GT500 is also a STREET CAR, not a RACE CAR. Manufacturers have to dial in under/oversteer to what's acceptable in EVERYDAY DRIVING. You should apply to replace Jamal - you are clearly much more elite of an engineer!

 

Here, learn yourself a bit:

 

http://www.nyracer.com/overunder.htm

 

 

There are many things that go into balancing the car for a STREET CAR that needs to meet SAFETY STANDARDS. What you put on it at THE TRACK is your business.

 

 

Anyone who thinks "just install the widest tires that will fit on all 4 corners" doesn't understand vehicle dynamics whatsoever. Using "but but but at the race track" as reasoning means they don't understand OEM durability and safety requirements for street legal, street driven vehicles.

[OneTrickPony]

The GT500 is also a STREET CAR, not a RACE CAR. Manufacturers have to dial in under/oversteer to what's acceptable in EVERYDAY DRIVING. You should apply to replace Jamal - you are clearly much more elite of an engineer!

 

Here, learn yourself a bit:

 

http://www.nyracer.com/overunder.htm

 

 

There are many things that go into balancing the car for a STREET CAR that needs to meet SAFETY STANDARDS. What you put on it at THE TRACK is your business.

 

 

Anyone who thinks "just install the widest tires that will fit on all 4 corners" doesn't understand vehicle dynamics whatsoever. Using "but but but at the race track" as reasoning means they don't understand OEM durability and safety requirements for street legal, street driven vehicles.

 

Don't feel bad SVTKEITH, Jamal is also an expert on the Raptor too, just go to the Rapor Forum. We haven't seen any real comparisons yet, hope Shelby does everything they predict on paper on the track or the guys who are obnoxious on this forum are going to make us look like a bunch of idiots.

 

I've have always learned and taught my althetes as a Head Coach to never speak bad of another opponet or under estimate them. You look like a fool and you will be the one everyone begins to dislike. Modestty and humbleness are much better qualities to possess and earn much more respect than being cocky and arrogant.

 

I looked a your link above, great info, and it does comment about widening the front and rear tires to compensate for over or understeer. The Shelby is what it is. We can argue about tire size all day, I still feel larger tires would increase traction etc. I'm waiting for the 2014, until then I'll enjoy my new toy, my 2012 Tuxedo Black Raptor.

[svtbird91]

Hey, how'd the great Camaro's IRS do in the recent GrandAm race in Daytona....I believe the best finish they had was 17th....and BTW One Trick pony it's Camaro not Camero ....

[REVENGE]

Funny how some people here say wider tires would mess up handling too much but the Camaro did it. They also said solid rear axle is the only way to handle the HP on a 500+ hp car but the Camaro does it with IRS. That tells me that some people don't know as much as they think they do. Like I said before. ...The next generation will have both wider rears and IRS for about the same cost as the current car proving its not impossible.

[svtkeith]

The GT500 is also a STREET CAR, not a RACE CAR. Manufacturers have to dial in under/oversteer to what's acceptable in EVERYDAY DRIVING. You should apply to replace Jamal - you are clearly much more elite of an engineer!

 

Here, learn yourself a bit:

 

http://www.nyracer.com/overunder.htm

 

 

There are many things that go into balancing the car for a STREET CAR that needs to meet SAFETY STANDARDS. What you put on it at THE TRACK is your business.

 

 

Anyone who thinks "just install the widest tires that will fit on all 4 corners" doesn't understand vehicle dynamics whatsoever. Using "but but but at the race track" as reasoning means they don't understand OEM durability and safety requirements for street legal, street driven vehicles.

 

 

 

Yeah think iI will apply for Jamal's job...First thing I would do is put wider rubber on all four corners of the GT500..lol...IMO it's BS that

 

they can't put wider tires on this car many people on here have done just that with their Stangs and with no apparent effect to their everyday

 

driveability....Hey nasty you go and check in the the mod section of this forum and see how many have done that mod maybe YOU'LL learn something.

[GT500bro]

There is a near obsession with the tire width issue. As near as I can tell it probably comes from two sources, first the well known traction issues that 07-12 Shelby's experience (including the Shelby SS). Most people seem to believe it is common sense that a wider rear tire would improve this condition (not sure what the data would say because I've never seen a reliable real world test of this hypothesis). Second, from a looks standpoint a wider tire, especially on the rear connotes power and performance and a 285 looks skimpy compared to a vette or (now) the camaro. Personally I like the looks of a wider tire but I'd like to see how the 2013 performs before reaching a final judgment. But as ChrisSD notes, the tires are but one component part of a much larger system. Comparing the Shelby to the new Camaro and coming to the conclusion that the Shelby should have wider tires doesn't strike me as solid reasoning. Griggs recommended 305 width all around in conjunction with their race suspension but as Chris notes, that is for a car designed mostly for track use. I would also note that 305s are not dramatically wider than 285s. I guess the bottom line is that if you want to tune your car for 1/4 mile times, rear tire choice is going to be a major consideration. But if your car is mostly for street use (and occasional track), it sounds like Jamal and the SVT guys have set it up to meet your requirements. Or at least, let's wait for the road test reviews to come in before we start going to town with a rush to judgment...

[svttim]

Funny how some people here say wider tires would mess up handling too much but the Camaro did it. They also said solid rear axle is the only way to handle the HP on a 500+ hp car but the Camaro does it with IRS. That tells me that some people don't know as much as they think they do. Like I said before. ...The next generation will have both wider rears and IRS for about the same cost as the current car proving its not impossible.

 

 

But somehow, the Mustang out handles the Camaro. You really should keep up with thread. Ford is trying to keep the understeer out of the car. Comparing tires on the two cars, with thier different weight distributions, is just nuts. The new Mustang very well may have IRS and wider tires, but, it will also be a totally new car

[OneTrickPony]

Hey, how'd the great Camaro's IRS do in the recent GrandAm race in Daytona....I believe the best finish they had was 17th....and BTW One Trick pony it's Camaro not Camero ....

 

OOps! Should have proof read a little closer.

[OneTrickPony]

But somehow, the Mustang out handles the Camaro. You really should keep up with thread. Ford is trying to keep the understeer out of the car. Comparing tires on the two cars, with thier different weight distributions, is just nuts. The new Mustang very well may have IRS and wider tires, but, it will also be a totally new car

 

I haven't found any new vids on a comparison yet. Do you have any links? I can't wait to see them go head to head with competent drivers in each car. I know the lateral g's are very very close but that's not the big picture. I know the 2014 is going to be a great car, hopefully with everything most of us on this forum have been wanting and complaining about.

I noticed that the Camaro has the battery in the rear of the car. Wouldn't that help with the Shelby's weight distribution and bring it a little more on par with the Camaro?

[ChrisSD]

Funny how some people here say wider tires would mess up handling too much but the Camaro did it. They also said solid rear axle is the only way to handle the HP on a 500+ hp car but the Camaro does it with IRS. That tells me that some people don't know as much as they think they do. Like I said before. ...The next generation will have both wider rears and IRS for about the same cost as the current car proving its not impossible.

 

 

Camaro has near 50/50 weight distribution, apples and oranges.

[svttim]

I haven't found any new vids on a comparison yet. Do you have any links? I can't wait to see them go head to head with competent drivers in each car. I know the lateral g's are very very close but that's not the big picture. I know the 2014 is going to be a great car, hopefully with everything most of us on this forum have been wanting and complaining about.

I noticed that the Camaro has the battery in the rear of the car. Wouldn't that help with the Shelby's weight distribution and bring it a little more on par with the Camaro?

 

 

The Battery in the trunk would help a bit. I was talking the current cars. We will have to wait for the 13 vs ZL1 comparro. They have reall problems making them competitive for most types of racing

[Black Shelby]

I enjoy reading all these comments as it really sets the tone for the shoot out when the 2013 GT 500 meets the ZL1. I think with all the 2012 GT 500s available the magazines should compare the ZL1 and 2012 Gt 500 SVTPP to get a baseline. From what I have studied it appears(at least on paper) that it is a lot closer in terms of performance than the Boss that was compared to the ZL1.

[svtkeith]

I enjoy reading all these comments as it really sets the tone for the shoot out when the 2013 GT 500 meets the ZL1. I think with all the 2012 GT 500s available the magazines should compare the ZL1 and 2012 Gt 500 SVTPP to get a baseline. From what I have studied it appears(at least on paper) that it is a lot closer in terms of performance than the Boss that was compared to the ZL1.

 

 

 

I agree I think they should put the 012 GT500 and the Camaro ZL1 head to head I think the Maro takes it...I do believe the 013

 

GT500 will be to much for the Camaro though...Being the GT500 is both lighter and more powerful is going to more than make up for the

 

ZL1's IRS IMO but hey they're two wonderful cars and can't wait till they go against each other just like the old days...Gotta love it.

[Bill Hamilton]

Can't find any 2012 Data on GT-500's but here's Car and Driver's road test of a 2011 GT-500 from Aug 2010 and the 2012 ZL1 road test from Mar 2012. Looks like a pretty even match up now before we even get into next year's models.

[svtkeith]

Can't find any 2012 Data on GT-500's but here's Car and Driver's road test of a 2011 GT-500 from Aug 2010 and the 2012 ZL1 road test from Mar 2012. Looks like a pretty even match up now before we even get into next year's models.

 

 

 

Yes looking at those #'s giving if the condtions were the same thats about as close as you can get it...The Camaro is hefting

 

around way to much weight and like I said before with the 013 GT500's lighter weight and more hp I think the GT500 takes it.

[Black Shelby]

Very interesting indeed. As I suspected the 11-12 GT 500s are closer to the ZL1 than the 2013 GT 500 will be. I would like to see them head to head on a track with somewhat equal drivers. As stated by SVT Keith and Bill Hamilton the extra weight of the Camaro may be it's major issue. In all fairness the Camaro is a fine car (just not my preference). I am glad that American cars are once again making headlines.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Yes looking at those #'s giving if the condtions were the same thats about as close as you can get it...The Camaro is hefting

 

around way to much weight and like I said before with the 013 GT500's lighter weight and more hp I think the GT500 takes it.

 

I think on a road course, it's going to be VERY close if not the Camaro having the advantage (depending on WHICH course it runs).

 

I say that because of the advantages and disadvantages each car has.

 

Camaro;

Advantages: IRS rear axle, magnetic suspension, 50/50 weight bias, larger contact patch (tire widths). All of those things favor cornering.

Disadvantage: Less HP, heavier car. That will affect how quick the Camaro can or can not accelerate.

 

GT500;

Advantages: More HP, lighter car.....uhhh, I can't think of any others!

 

So on paper, the Camaro *should* be able to hold it's cornering speed better than the GT5 which means a more "consistant" average time (all around the track, corner for corner). But the big HP advantage of the GT5 should allow it to come out of the corner HARD and accelerate down the straight considerably quicker (and faster if top speed is a issue). The problem with that is, the forced induction on the GT5 comes on suddenly which generally results in oversteer (driver depandant).

 

So on a tight, twisty track I see the Camaro having the advantage.

 

On a big, open, long sweeper track, the GT5 should *kill* the Camaro.

 

And ON PAPER the GT5 should also come out ahead on the 1/4 mile but that will be *totally* dependant on the skill of the driver in the GT5. A lesser driver (car for car) will have the advantage in a Camaro provided the "new Launch Control" isn't what it's being touted as being. If the Launch control is anywhere near what some of the more expensive cars out there today have, Advantage; Camaro. Unless your name is Evan Smith.

 

 

JMHO,

Phill

[JeffJ]

And ON PAPER the GT5 should also come out ahead on the 1/4 mile but that will be *totally* dependant on the skill of the driver in the GT5. A lesser driver (car for car) will have the advantage in a Camaro provided the "new Launch Control" isn't what it's being touted as being. If the Launch control is anywhere near what some of the more expensive cars out there today have, Advantage; Camaro. Unless your name is Evan Smith.

 

 

JMHO,

Phill

 

Don't forget that the 2013 GT500 has Launch Control also. Again, will depend on how each system works of course!

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Don't forget that the 2013 GT500 has Launch Control also. Again, will depend on how each system works of course!

 

 

That's what I was talking about when I meantioned "the new launch control".

 

And why I said it will be dependant on how well it works, or not. That's the one variable that is untested at this point and remains to be seen. IF it works as advertised, a Camaro with AT (or MT with LC) is gonna have problems up against a GT500. The GT5 will just out-torque it in the first 1/8th and out-power it in the last 1/8th. In other words, no race....

 

ET is all about the little end. MPH is all about the big end. And the car that gets there FIRST, wins.

 

 

Phill

[Ezareth]

I think a lot of people are also forgetting Ford put lower gears in the 2013 differential and transmission which should help in the traction department and improve track times by less shifting as well.

 

1st gear should hook up much better than in older GT500s despite the horsepower gains.

 

The Zl1 by comparison is still running 3.73s to the 2013 GT500s 3.31s.

[ChrisSD]

Yep. 13 has less wheel torque in 1st than the 12 and older. It will spin less off the line. Very simple calculations when you know the torque, tire height, and gear ratios.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

The Zl1 by comparison is still running 3.73s to the 2013 GT500s 3.31s.

 

 

It's not the rear end gear ratio that matters, it's the final drive ratio. That takes the tranmission gearing (per gear), plus the rear end gearing plus the tire diameter to determine.

 

One car with a lower rear end gear ratio could potentially have a higher final drive ratio, depending on the tire size and transmission gearing since they all play a part in the Final drive ratio.

 

In the GT500, 4th gear is a 1:1 ratio but they changed the other gear ratios to interact with the 'new' rear gear ratio. I have no idea what the gear ratio is in the Camaro, or which gear is the 1:1 gear. Even then, you'd only be comparing ONE gear (if you were to compare the 1:1 gears) and the tires would still be a variable.

 

It makes sense that the Camaro is running a lower rear gear ratio than the GT500. The GT5 uses forced induction, the Camaro is Naturally Asperated. Forced induction increases TORQUE and you want to run a lower (numericaly) gear because the increased torque can pull through it where a NA engine has less torque so needs the torque multiplication of a higher (higher numerically, lower ratio) gear.

 

 

Phill

[JeffJ]

It makes sense that the Camaro is running a lower rear gear ratio than the GT500. The GT5 uses forced induction, the Camaro is Naturally Asperated. Forced induction increases TORQUE and you want to run a lower (numericaly) gear because the increased torque can pull through it where a NA engine has less torque so needs the torque multiplication of a higher (higher numerically, lower ratio) gear.

 

 

Phill

 

 

Whoops....what? You're talking about the ZL1 right? Better recheck that.

[Freak]

Phill, the ZL1 is supercharged.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Phill, the ZL1 is supercharged.

 

 

The (Camaro) ZL1 is??? I thought the (Corvette) zR1 was but the Camaro was NA.

 

Shows how much I care about the Camaro (i.e. ZILCH!).

 

To be more than honest with ya, I've vested very little time into the Camaro because I know, REGARDLESS of the performance, I won't buy one. If I buy anything it'll be either a '13 Boss 302 or a '13 GT500.

 

They're being pretty stingy on their hi-tech info. too.

 

EDIT: Yikes. You guys peaked my curiosity and I started searching for information on the Camaro. GOOD LORD! Technologically speaking, it's a master of hi-tech.

 

I will be the first to admit that I'm a "techie" and easily impressed by technology but even stil, I wouldn't have one (a Camaro). I bought my GT500 for the same reason I bought/own 2 Harley-Davidson motorcycles...Not for the "high tech" aspect (because frankly, there is none in a H-D) but because of the "classic" (vs. contemporay) or "retro" styling of both. I'm a "old school" guy and I just LOVE classic styling. The '05+up S197 Mustang and more so the '07+up GT500 just grabbed me by the short-hairs and drew me in. I bought it for THE LOOKS.

 

I was waiting for the new "Transformer Camaro" to come out and when it did I saw one at a local car show. I sat in it and I WAS *NOT* IMPRESSED. I wasn't disapointed but I sure wasn't impressed either. Then about a month later I went to another local car show and there was a guy there with a 2010 Roush 427R in Grabber Blue & Black (stripes/decals). Now THAT car grabbed me and it was love at first sight. I HAD to have one. When I asked the guy about the GT500 (which I had never seen in person but knew about them) he kind'a shrugged it off so I KNEW it had to be better than his Roush! My Internet search began and I was fortunate enough to find the exact color of a '10 Roush 427R AND a '10 Shelby GT500 in the same showroom so I could do a direct comparison to them both (and also a '09 GT500KR in Silver/blue). The Roush almost had me with the side view and the lower "stance" but I already knew about Ford Racing and figured "I can buy the stance and add it to the GT500". I liked the Roush from behind because of his more agressive rear spoiler/wing and figured "I could by THAT too if I so desired". When I went around to the front and compared the Shelby nose to the Roush nose....Pfffffffffftttttttttt!

 

The short story is, I don't like the "sharp edge" look of the Camaro. It looks TOO MUCH like a Cadillac which at first was attractive...until just about EVERY GM started to look like that.

 

Ford has GM beat HANDS DOWN in the styling department. They seem to be playing catch-up in the tech department but the power/performance dept is where Ford also excells. And being "old school"...There ain't no such thing as TOO MUCH POWER.

 

 

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

 

Phill