Whammer Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 The best single stat that can be looked at is 1/4 mile MPH. A car that traps 120 MPH is going to be way more fun to drive on the street than one that goes through at 110. Someone posted how trap speed can be a bit misleading. If someone really spins their wheels off the line they can have a higher trap speed than someone who launches perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyman Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 MPH as a stand alone parameter is the best measure of raw power and acceleration capabilities. E.T. is heavily influenced by what happens in the 60 ft. split. MPH indicates rolling power which translates best to a street experience. How often does a muscle car owner bolt on the stickies and do 6,000 rpm dumps on the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madlock Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Jim Farley seems to be pretty confident of what Ford has on-tap to keep ZL1 in the ladies' room. Sure ZL1's impressive - shove a Corvette engine and CTS-V suspension into that pig of a Zeta platform that neuters them both. What Ford has managed to achieve with a solid axle isn't just remarkable - it delivers a car with a far more predictable (and most would say better) "analog" feel. Vinyl still beats the hell out of a poorly-recorded CD. In addition to Camaro's ONLY debatable virtue being visual, Camaro suffers from becoming a BETTER car from 50 feet away than while being inside - let alone driving it. Those who've noted ZL1 will never be allowed to tread into Corvette or CTS-V territory are absolutely correct - no matter HOW badly Corvette sales are flagging. Even if GM has sorted-out Camaro's pathetic IRS for ZL1, there's MUCH Ford can (and may) do VERY simply to make quantum improvements to S197. A factory Watts link would add a HUGE off-the-lot improvement - as would the kind of dynamic adjustable dampers that are now commonplace and produced by MANY OEM suppliers. S197's greatest liability is weight - yet it's still lighter than ZL1, and a FAR better overall performance chassis that will enhance everything Ford puts into it in the same way Zeta neuters whatever GM may borrow from other models. I'm praying Ford will ALSO decide to take a "no compromise" approach - as there's absolutely NO reason to not have modern conveniences like heated power seats and a backup camera in a $60K car - period. Hell, a $25K Fusion has them. I have every confidence in Ford - and the S197. Even IF Camaro manages a handful of nominal advantages it's likely to remain less than the sum of its borrowed parts. Before ZL1 comes to market, federal law should require any margin by which ZL1 should happen to win over any OTHER car in a particular competition to be expressed in terms of billions of bailout and bankruptcy dollars per second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Madlock - " ZL1 will never be allowed to tread into Corvette or CTS-V territory are absolutely correct " How do you figure? The ZL1 *smokes* the CTS-V as well as the base C6 Vette in every single performance category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madlock Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Madlock - " ZL1 will never be allowed to tread into Corvette or CTS-V territory are absolutely correct " How do you figure? The ZL1 *smokes* the CTS-V as well as the base C6 Vette in every single performance category. On paper, yes. But likely not in 3D as a complete product. It would be the surest way to cannibalize sales and turn MORE profitable customers into less profitable ones - which has been one of new GM's greatest areas of focus. We're also nearing the end of the era when makers can simply add whatever their engineers are capable of squeezing into cars. Fuel economy mandates are already causing makers to influence which products they offer and how they price them to influence the sales mix to achieve the overall economy they must. Volt selling so poorly has put GM in an even-deeper pickle. The result is going to decouple almost entirely pricing from production costs. The first example was Lincoln pricing MKZ Hybrid the same as the V6. Even if buyers line-up out the doors, makers may not be able to serve them - and any super-powerful vehicles are likely to be punitively priced. Sure, with so many different versions and trim levels, not every Camaro will underperform every Corvette. But ZL1 is nevertheless going to run up against an artificial ceiling - simply to preserve the value of the other products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsnake Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Oh ye of little faith Subscribed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang let back Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Whammer, These future comparisons of stock vehicles are the only ones that will really count, because GM's run around the ring is most likely in a prepared (you might say a ringer ) ZL1... notwithstanding their claim it's an off the line production unit. I can't wait for the head to head showdown. i said that on here somewhere else.this CRAPMARO zl1 is not off of the production line,as you have said it is a ringer car with more hp.what they sell will not do the numbers that the ringer zl1 did.im glad you have sense enough to see that too. :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpmurr Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 On paper, yes. But likely not in 3D as a complete product. It would be the surest way to cannibalize sales and turn MORE profitable customers into less profitable ones - which has been one of new GM's greatest areas of focus. We're also nearing the end of the era when makers can simply add whatever their engineers are capable of squeezing into cars. Fuel economy mandates are already causing makers to influence which products they offer and how they price them to influence the sales mix to achieve the overall economy they must. Volt selling so poorly has put GM in an even-deeper pickle. The result is going to decouple almost entirely pricing from production costs. The first example was Lincoln pricing MKZ Hybrid the same as the V6. Even if buyers line-up out the doors, makers may not be able to serve them - and any super-powerful vehicles are likely to be punitively priced. Sure, with so many different versions and trim levels, not every Camaro will underperform every Corvette. But ZL1 is nevertheless going to run up against an artificial ceiling - simply to preserve the value of the other products. The Volt would do well if we have the proper infrastructure for electric cars. The thing is the US power grid already needs work handle the current load. Where can you plug it in outside of your house other than some very select areas of the country? Central Planning at its finest by Government Motors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 They've done nothing effective towards traction other than throw a different compound tire on it, and they've done nothing towards suspension other than change the strut/spring package. The Camaro has a better chassis, period. Add that in with MRC and PTM and it is an animal. All it needed was HP and it got that too. Ford can't just increase displacement, add boost, and expect to compete with this thing. And what planet have you been on? The Camaro chasis is better?? The chasis is a pig, cant compete on track without major concessions for power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Hoss 540 Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Until Ford gets a good paddle shifting (I have had several) auto in the GT500 then it is always going to be the little sister. Who knows what the next few years will hold but in the Rags the ZL1 will always beat the Shelby like a red headed step child just because it gets hp to the ground and can control it better. Stoplight to stoplight the Shelby will always see tail lights. The car still has no soul but I will not be running one stop light to stoplight because any 16 year old with pimples can just mash the gas pedal to the floor and hold on to the wheel. The track is a different story but that tends to get lost in the rags because most people do not run on the track. If Ford is smart they will develop an auto 7 or 8 speed for the Shelby along with the required software if they want to stay competitive. GM is beating Ford because the Vette although the version that does it costs a lot more is a world class sports car recognized by industry and Ford does not have one. I know that this is not a popular thing to say but the Shelby has the capability even with the motor it has now but the days of the stick shift are coming to an end. All of the top tier sports cars save the ZR1 and even the Shelby if you consider it a top tier car are being left behind. Unfortunately technology has passed Ford and GM on this and yes those trannys cost a lot more but I would pay more for the option. When it does eventually happen the stick shift will just slowly fade away. Who 20 years ago would have thought that the big boys from Europe would have developed and deployed such a successful product for sports car and now not just the exotic ones. As the older generation trades stick shift cars in for battery operated carts the younger generation will demand less old school and require performance imho. That being said I still like the 6 speed but I am 49 right between the duffers and the kids! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whammer Posted October 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yes the automatic transmission seems to be vastly superior to a manual. The times they are a changin. I prefer a manual but I know that in almost all cases it will be beaten by an automatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Beyond Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 i said that on here somewhere else.this CRAPMARO zl1 is not off of the production line,as you have said it is a ringer car with more hp.what they sell will not do the numbers that the ringer zl1 did.im glad you have sense enough to see that too. :happy feet: Ringer might appear to be the case. Scroll down to post #65. http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2013-shelby-gt500-413/801935-2013-will-have-5-8-a-3.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Until Ford gets a good paddle shifting (I have had several) auto in the GT500 then it is always going to be the little sister. Who knows what the next few years will hold but in the Rags the ZL1 will always beat the Shelby like a red headed step child just because it gets hp to the ground and can control it better. Stoplight to stoplight the Shelby will always see tail lights. The car still has no soul but I will not be running one stop light to stoplight because any 16 year old with pimples can just mash the gas pedal to the floor and hold on to the wheel. The track is a different story but that tends to get lost in the rags because most people do not run on the track. If Ford is smart they will develop an auto 7 or 8 speed for the Shelby along with the required software if they want to stay competitive. GM is beating Ford because the Vette although the version that does it costs a lot more is a world class sports car recognized by industry and Ford does not have one. I know that this is not a popular thing to say but the Shelby has the capability even with the motor it has now but the days of the stick shift are coming to an end. All of the top tier sports cars save the ZR1 and even the Shelby if you consider it a top tier car are being left behind. Unfortunately technology has passed Ford and GM on this and yes those trannys cost a lot more but I would pay more for the option. When it does eventually happen the stick shift will just slowly fade away. Who 20 years ago would have thought that the big boys from Europe would have developed and deployed such a successful product for sports car and now not just the exotic ones. As the older generation trades stick shift cars in for battery operated carts the younger generation will demand less old school and require performance imho. That being said I still like the 6 speed but I am 49 right between the duffers and the kids! I wont argue with some of your points but I dont agree that we know which car will be quicker. Ford says you will be extreemly pleased with the traction on the 2013. I do think Ford should make an atomatic but, not for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Hamilton Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 ...................... I do think Ford should make an atomatic but, not for me Agreed, the 67-70 GT-500's could be had with an automatic. I would think it would help their sales, although I doubt they have trouble now selling all the Shelby GT-500's they build. However, I too prefer to drive with a stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsarkis Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Auto = Boring I'd never have one in a sports or muscle car unless I raced for $$$ consistently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhlgt500 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Auto = Boring I'd never have one in a sports or muscle car unless I raced for $$$ consistently. Does Ford offer a decent manual-matic transmission on any platform? I thought Aston Martin offered one that at least wasn't ridiculed by the reviewers before Ford sold them off? Anyway, I'd take whichever one is better. If Ford offers a modern, well developed manual-matic transmission, and doesn't fix the current manual's issues, it is a no brainer to get the manual-matic. If they offer a traditional American auto, no paddle shifters, won't hold a gear to the redline, glacial downshifts shifts, etc. then the manual, as problematic as it currently is, probably wins. If they actually fix the manual and offer a world class manual-matic of some sort as options, I'd probably take the manual-matic and would strongly consider jumping in and actually buying a 2013. Also, assuming the auto rumors are true, it will be interesting to see the order sheet and what combinations of options are allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber11GT Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Does any thing that Chevy does really matter. This is the greatest thing to happen to us! This will really kick off the battle between the wannabees and the bad motha's! I say, lets kick the tires and light the fires and just beat it into submission. Also, park the ZL1 next to the Shelby and see which one acts like a magnet to the public! Hands down the Shelby will pull your eyes out of your head and slam your back into the seat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Hoss 540 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Yes even if the ZL1 will beat the GT500 on the street like a drum in the parking lot the GT500 does win. Also----it does not matter if it is a ZR1 or not because they are a dime a dozen (I can buy the GT500 at X Plan or the ZR1 at employee price) you take a Super Snake and a ZR1 park them side by side and people while they are standing in line to see the Super Snake will take a leak in the rolled down window of the ZR1. Now get them running down the highway at speed and the Vette has the advantage big time. Kind of funny and it is hard to find places around her to get up towards 200 but I used to do it quite a bit when I rode into the office LOL (2000 Hayabusa). Even if the cars can go that fast it is almost impossible to do it safely because of how long it takes to get to that speed and then slowing down is problematic as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Hoss 540 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Auto = Boring I'd never have one in a sports or muscle car unless I raced for $$$ consistently. I used to be that way but after having the good auto trannys and if you have a choice between that and a stick you are leaving performance on the table. You can have 7 or 8 gears vs 5 or 6 just to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whammer Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzEwp4GoSZo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whammer Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsiTEjE4r3Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang let back Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 the ringer show again.again this is not a car off of the production line.nice try shitty chevy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.s Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 you couldnt give me one but i think this car will perform quite well.the 7:41 car might be a ringer but most if not all of the technology is borrowed from the zr1 which is a monster.competition is a good thing anyway.i think a torque tube with a rear mounted transmission would help the gt500s front/rear bias greatly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Hoss 540 Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Also, if you think about it price point is a consideration here---Ford could build a world class car but won't. Have always wondered why but money is money. If the engineering resources were put behind it there could be a legitimate competitor to the ZR1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whammer Posted October 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Also, if you think about it price point is a consideration here---Ford could build a world class car but won't. Have always wondered why but money is money. If the engineering resources were put behind it there could be a legitimate competitor to the ZR1. They did the Ford GT. No reason to not make a similar car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Hoss 540 Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 They did the Ford GT. No reason to not make a similar car. Yes --- just enough to call it production which it really was not for 1 year pretty C/S really.. To call the GT world class in 2011 is a huge reach but it does speak to Ford being willing to suck on the hind tit like they always have when it comes to sports cars. They have never had a world class "Production" sports car ever---closest they came was the Ford powered Pantera and all they had in that was the engine. Doubt that they ever will but they do sell quite a few of the "poor man’s sports cars" and as long as the old man is alive then they will still sell. Would not be surprised in the next few months to see rebates on the 2012 Shelby's as they are already running "specials" on them now on the radio here in the DFW area. The GT has problems and to offer it to the public was never in the cards from day 1. I am sure Ford lost a pretty penney on the GT Program (which was planned) but there is no reason they could not compete with GM --- they do very well in the truck market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneTrickPony Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 the ringer show again.again this is not a car off of the production line.nice try shitty chevy. I am A Ford Guy owning the new 2012 SEL loaded Focus, 2011 Limited Loaded Edge & the 2010 F-150 Platinum loaded. I'm waiting to see what Ford does with the Shelby since I sold my loaded 2010 GT 500. But to make fun of another company only shows ignorance and makes you or us Ford Guys look like fools. I for one NEVER under estimate the competition. This new Camero may very well kick our asses if Ford doesn't step up to the plate. :fool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whammer Posted October 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 I am A Ford Guy owning the new 2012 SEL loaded Focus, 2011 Limited Loaded Edge & the 2010 F-150 Platinum loaded. I'm waiting to see what Ford does with the Shelby since I sold my loaded 2010 GT 500. But to make fun of another company only shows ignorance and makes you or us Ford Guys look like fools. I for one NEVER under estimate the competition. This new Camero may very well kick our asses if Ford doesn't step up to the plate. :fool: 100% correct! The GT500 is getting the 5.8 ONLY because of the ZL1, hopefully it gets many more improvements. And these improvements are due to one reason only....the ZL1. I'm not sure why so many people overlook that fact and choose to just attack the Camaro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2009droptopshelby Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 WIth the BIGGER engine whats the MPG? Will the gas guzzler tax come back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 The ZL1 will rape every Mustang ever made including the SVTPP 2012 GT500. Give credit where it's due. GM pushed the envelope. The new 13' is better BECAUSE OF Chevy. No ZL1 = 13/14 same as 12 with some new interior options and perks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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