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Flat Rock in trouble?


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I agree---the age thing is getting to the Mustang owners. Most of the younger folks like the Camaro from what I have noticed here in my area. I just wonder what will happen to the GT500 and GT 350 when the old man is gone. Will Ford still build them and just put SVT on them??

 

IMHO if you look at a GT Mustang vs a SS Camaro to me the Camaro is the hands down winner but the GT500 beats the SS and the SL1 from the pics I have seen hands down. Funny how the human mind works..

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I agree---the age thing is getting to the Mustang owners. Most of the younger folks like the Camaro from what I have noticed here in my area. I just wonder what will happen to the GT500 and GT 350 when the old man is gone. Will Ford still build them and just put SVT on them??

 

IMHO if you look at a GT Mustang vs a SS Camaro to me the Camaro is the hands down winner but the GT500 beats the SS and the SL1 from the pics I have seen hands down. Funny how the human mind works..

 

 

I think the GT is maybe a little too tame looking, but I agree that the GT500 is a much better looking car than the bloated Camaro - plus I have no use for a welfare car company.

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I will agree that the Camaro looks great, but sitting in one is a different story. The visibility sucks, the build and materials feel cheap and it even feels like a big heavy bloated car just sitting in it. Speaking of age, I have seen a lot of older guys in the new Camaro as well, it is not just the Mustang that attracts this crowd, on that note, and I wonder if the AT in the LS1 is way to attract more from this demographic, something for Ford to consider.

 

A good question is, what did the first few years of sales figures for the current generation Mustang look like, how does that compare to the Camaro for the same time period of initial sales. The Camaro had a void of 8(?) years where nobody could get one, so part of that initial surge could be filling that vacuum I suppose. Also by not dropping the convertible right away I think it helped draw out steady sales figures over a period of time, as the coupe sales may start to cool off, the convertible sales will pick some up some of the drop off. Additionally, the marketing tie-in with the Camaro and the Transformer movies no doubt helps entice a younger demographic as well. So GM does have a number of things in its favor right now, how that will play out only time will tell.

 

The bottom line, the current Mustang is due for a refresh, and it is coming. When it does, the Camaro will be facing the same aging issue the Mustang currently is and at the end of the day, the Mustang still is a better performing car.

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J&D---Good Points but one thing you mentioned is so true!!!!! My next door neighbor has a BUMBLEBEEEEE.. For some reason I do like that car but just because of the movie.. Now you could not run fast enough to give me a GT 500 painted that color!

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J&D---Good Points but one thing you mentioned is so true!!!!! My next door neighbor has a BUMBLEBEEEEE.. For some reason I do like that car but just because of the movie.. Now you could not run fast enough to give me a GT 500 painted that color!

 

 

Here is a Hot Wheel I picked up a long time ago that gives an idea what it would look like. I would consider trading my '10 blk/blk for this color combo only if the stripes were gloss, not matte.

 

Also, the stigma of the Camaro will wear off soon. They seem to be a dime a dozen here in UT. And, the 2SS (the most common it seems) and the 1SS owners won't even turn to look at my GT500. Intimidation at it's best...

post-8230-0-38821300-1308250793_thumb.jpg

post-8230-0-38821300-1308250793_thumb.jpg

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Who knows where the Mustang might end up being built. The early reports say that the 2014-15 mustang will be built on a global platform and sold worldwide. It makes good sense for Ford to do this with the Mustang. But it also means the car could be built somewhere else or built in a different assembly plant in the US.

 

My opinion is the new Mustang will be far less retro looking and will be designed to appeal to a younger car buying market.

 

If there was no Shelby , I would still rather have a GT than a Camaro.

I also think that when the old man is gone that it will be the end of Shelby. I'm sure many will disagree with me but that's my opinion.

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In speaking to a few Camaro owners (I do try to avoid them at all costs) they opted for the Chevy over the Mustang because of the IRS and automatic transmission. If Ford would listen to the mass market and interested buyers and add these two components (AT as an option for the GT500) I think it would also help boost their sales. It certainly would have for the '10-'12 models.

 

Jim

Edited by Dubstang
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Here is a Hot Wheel I picked up a long time ago that gives an idea what it would look like. I would consider trading my '10 blk/blk for this color combo only if the stripes were gloss, not matte.

 

Also, the stigma of the Camaro will wear off soon. They seem to be a dime a dozen here in UT. And, the 2SS (the most common it seems) and the 1SS owners won't even turn to look at my GT500. Intimidation at it's best...

Interesting......hmmmm. I always thought that there was a bit of monitoring that went on from the manufacturers as it relates to Hot Wheels cars? I am surprised to see that yellow GT500 in a `10 body style in a Hot Wheel toy model.

 

Nonetheless, the new yellow is lame! (Yellow Blaze Clearcoat) . JMHO

 

EDIT- keep the color for the Fiesta and maybe the Focus...but NOT a Stang!!

Edited by BIKEBOY
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As far as Flat Rocks troubles... it was bound to happen sometime fellas. The Mustang, nor the Challenger, nor the Camaro, nor the Ferrari blah blah blah can remain on top of its game in todays world of cardome! We are living in the most competitive automobile market that the industrialized world has ever seen! Right wrong or otherwise? You have the Koreans over here now kicking some serious world Butt! Did you ever imagine the day you would see Hyundai spending the ridiculous coin it costs to advertise on our American SuperBowl? I was cruising to work the other day and was challenged in my BMW 135i twin Turbo by a Hyundai Genesis coupe with the 3.0 Litre V6...normally aspirated motor with 300-ish horses. That car was very impressive. I was pulling on him the whole time we were tangling with one another, but nonetheless guys...their (Hyundai) in the game! Whether we like it or not. That car, whether we like it or not, is taking sales from the Mustang, as well as the Camaro, the Challenger heck, even the 370Z and the G35 coupes are vying for the right to take someones cash in that horsepower/price range! And thats all I can think of right now...theres probably more.

 

Along with the argueably re-designed less attractive rear of the Mustang, and the launch of this Camaro Ford has its work cut out for it. They are pinning their hopes of a re-designed 2014 Mustang on regaining the lead of the Pony car segment, but I say if they stray too far away from a retro appeal, they will be right back to the way the old Fox body cars were...(not so much). You all know what they say about history???

 

;)

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Actually Ford does have to be really careful, there was another time in history when Ford started to build cars in house just like the Boss 302 as Shelby was shown the door just before an all new, smaller Mustang was to be introduced. Kind of creepy actually.

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I was a GM guy for years, but after driving the new camaro, it just wasn't for me. The interior and lack of visibility just did me in. Compare that to the Mustang with the electronics package and it's a no brainer. Ford is on top of their game. The new 5.0 is faster than the LS3 Camaro and the younger crowd has taken notice.

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I was a GM guy for years, but after driving the new camaro, it just wasn't for me. The interior and lack of visibility just did me in. Compare that to the Mustang with the electronics package and it's a no brainer. Ford is on top of their game. The new 5.0 is faster than the LS3 Camaro and the younger crowd has taken notice.

 

The younger crowd is buying up the Camaro like bottles of RedBull! Sorry to say. B)

 

There inlies the problem.

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Flat Rock is in trouble, but it has nothing to do with Mustang.

 

It's also VERY important to realize that much of what's being reported is out-of-context factoids which, while being factually correct, don't necessarily provide an accurate picture of the circumstances - particularly since so much of what's written is by people who are accustomed only to looking at car making through the lens of 40 years of status quo that drove Detroit to the brink of collapse.

 

When Mazda6 goes, it certainly makes FAR more sense to move Mustang to an existing modernized facility - unless Ford has a derivative from the S197 successor that would provide capacity nobody can imagine.

 

Furthermore, people REALLY have to get over the "more" necessarily being "better" in terms of sales - and versus Camaro in particular. Lest we forget Detroit went bankrupt building toward nearly 130% of the cars they make today.

 

A lot of the production data is heavily distorted by Ford pulling V6's from its CHEAPEST Mustang flavor - and using them to meet FAR more profitable F-150 demand. Also, Ford has been making hay of staying on the right side of demand curve - as evidenced by the minimal inventory and incentives required to clear remaining 2011 inventory, particularly after the sea of 2010 inventory dealers were saddled with trying to unload at 100hp deficits.

 

This accounts for May's dramatic volume drop-off and almost 1/3 of the disparity year to date. It's also important to take into consideration that Camaro launched its first convertible - which is similarly distortive. Even so, Camaro is in year 2 of a model, while Mustang is in year 7 - with one more to go. SOME ebb and flow is expected.

 

Both Ford and dealer gross margins have NEVER been higher, and Ford is making FAR more selling about 80% of past volumes because of higher gross margins. A VAST amount of Ford's increased profitability has come from the business it's chose to NOT chase after - and for the first time in almost 50 years, Detroit is behaving like any other rational manufacturing sector.

 

It's also clearly in Ford's interest to remind AAI Flat Rock heading into contract negotiations that it has the highest labor costs for any company making cars in the U.S. - even more than those the UAW happens to own large parts of. Even if Ford has plans to keep Flat Rock open at full steam, it's not in its interest to let that information out - at least not until it's building competitively.

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Flat Rock is in trouble, but it has nothing to do with Mustang.

 

It's also VERY important to realize that much of what's being reported is out-of-context factoids which, while being factually correct, don't necessarily provide an accurate picture of the circumstances - particularly since so much of what's written is by people who are accustomed only to looking at car making through the lens of 40 years of status quo that drove Detroit to the brink of collapse.

 

When Mazda6 goes, it certainly makes FAR more sense to move Mustang to an existing modernized facility - unless Ford has a derivative from the S197 successor that would provide capacity nobody can imagine.

 

Furthermore, people REALLY have to get over the "more" necessarily being "better" in terms of sales - and versus Camaro in particular. Lest we forget Detroit went bankrupt building toward nearly 130% of the cars they make today.

 

A lot of the production data is heavily distorted by Ford pulling V6's from its CHEAPEST Mustang flavor - and using them to meet FAR more profitable F-150 demand. Also, Ford has been making hay of staying on the right side of demand curve - as evidenced by the minimal inventory and incentives required to clear remaining 2011 inventory, particularly after the sea of 2010 inventory dealers were saddled with trying to unload at 100hp deficits.

 

This accounts for May's dramatic volume drop-off and almost 1/3 of the disparity year to date. It's also important to take into consideration that Camaro launched its first convertible - which is similarly distortive. Even so, Camaro is in year 2 of a model, while Mustang is in year 7 - with one more to go. SOME ebb and flow is expected.

 

Both Ford and dealer gross margins have NEVER been higher, and Ford is making FAR more selling about 80% of past volumes because of higher gross margins. A VAST amount of Ford's increased profitability has come from the business it's chose to NOT chase after - and for the first time in almost 50 years, Detroit is behaving like any other rational manufacturing sector.

 

It's also clearly in Ford's interest to remind AAI Flat Rock heading into contract negotiations that it has the highest labor costs for any company making cars in the U.S. - even more than those the UAW happens to own large parts of. Even if Ford has plans to keep Flat Rock open at full steam, it's not in its interest to let that information out - at least not until it's building competitively.

 

 

 

That is IT in a nutshell.....some ebb and flow is to be expected. This industry is an ebb and flow industry and has ALWAYS been as such. No matter how we wanna think of our beloved brand, (FORD), the ebb and flow...ups and downs of continueous new introductions / facelifts from all of the manufacturers today will always leave one of the brands in the 'hunt/chase'! Therefore, there will always be a frontrunner, and always be a chaser close behind. It's not too dissimilar to the current battle between the Canadian Looney and the American Dollar. One enjoys the lead for a bit and then they swap the top dog spot! This keeps the companies striving to be 'The Best' all the time! Turns out, the consumer is the winner EVERYTIME! Just doesn't mean we will always like the offering?

2014 will bring with it a whole new ballgame, IMHO. We start the Muscle wars all over again. The Mustang gets a huge change, the Camaro some more HP, and the long in tooth Challenger, quite possibly by that time...the axe?!

 

 

:ninja:

 

EDIT- spelling

Edited by BIKEBOY
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I read somewhere that GM already has the next gen Camaro in the serious planning stages. It will be a slightly modified Holden frame. The overall size of the Camaro will be slightly shorter and narrower. They really need to address the driver experience factor as it is like sitting in a pit and having to peer out (reminds me of driver an old Sunbean Tiger in some ways). Personally, I don't think it is a bad looking car, just isn't nearly the drive as the GT500. Can't comment on the GT as I never drove one.

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In speaking to a few Camaro owners (I do try to avoid them at all costs) they opted for the Chevy over the Mustang because of the IRS and automatic transmission. If Ford would listen to the mass market and interested buyers and add these two components (AT as an option for the GT500) I think it would also help boost their sales. It certainly would have for the '10-'12 models.

 

Jim

 

I do believe they should make a IRS standard on Boss and Shelby's and an option on 5.0 with Brembo Brake Package. However I must disagree with automatic transmission on the Shelby's. Younger drivers without a doubt are favoring the Camaro over the Mustang but given the lack of traction on the Shelby when pushed, the last thing that us owners and the mass public needs is some irresponsible teenager (who opted for the Shelby over a 335i) trying to show off his car on public roads. I know we do some stupid stuff on occasion in our toys, but we at least have the experience and understanding of knowing our actions

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I went down to a Chevy Stealer again tonight. I have reported on this before. The very same Orange Camaro SS coupe' that's been sitting since the snow was a fly'n, is still sitt'n! Six speed, Orange seat inserts, and white twin stripes on the hood and decklid. Last time I reported on this, I sorta gave a psudo car magazine writer's take on the car. Again, after looking at the car, I am having a great degree of difficulty figuring out why FlatRock is in the turmoil it's in...only as it relates to supposed Camaro sales? :headscratch: I get the fact that Mazda pulling the 626 production from the plant is detrimental to it's health, but I cannot believe that the Camaro is outpacing the Mustang in sales? This stealership in question is on Rte1 in the Princeton New Jersey area, if anyone knows it? They have quite a few Camaros piled up, and some that have been sitting there for a long time? :headscratch: If I drive by my couple of local Ford stealers...there are NEVER any Mustangs sitting for ANY length of time? It's a damn conundrum to me?

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