mullens Posted May 21, 2011 Report Share Posted May 21, 2011 68fastback, I couldn't agree more. I've never met a more down to earth, selflessly giving, infinitely more patient person. His ecliptic knowledge of cars is very impressive. When I would ask people about cars and mods, as I said earlier, words would tumble out of their mouth and my head would spin. I felt it was more to impress and sell me than actually help me. Big egos. When kids ask me about what they have to do to be a pilot, I simply to say to them, in order to be a pilot, you have to love to fly. End of discussion. I don't run on and on about Inertial navigation systems, inertial reference systems and the difference between the two, berillium crystals, ocean crossing procedures, coriolis effect, dry adiabatic lapse rates, hypoxia, L/D max equations, energy management in a air to air combat, coffin corners, laminar flow, effect of sunspots on HF communication, and the unending tedious oversight of the federal government and what that means for a pilot operating in a very complex international environment. Blah blah blah. I just say if you want to be a pilot, you've gotta love to fly. And let them lead the conversation from there. I answer their questions slowely and feel I failed if they have the look of a dog looking at a clock. The last thing I want to do is talk circles. But it seems that most all vendors that I've spoken with, both locally and across the country, talk with intimidation and ego. Spinning circles around you of what you need to do to your car. Dog/clock syndrome. And it seems as though they aren't happy until they get, "the look". I talked to one guy here locally who went on and on about how stupid his customers were and how tired he was of them. Yet, these people bring their car to him with the hopes that he will fix/mod their car. They trust him. He didn't seem to be thankful for the business he had. Just pissed at how annoying his customers are. BlackShelby was never any of this. Always available and never condescending. Completely knowledgeable and patient in my never ending, "stupid", questions. Proof once again that people that REALLY know, think that what they know is simple. They have mastered their subject matter. And talk from a position of wisdom rather than ego. Totally agree...Jim is a great guy. One question...since the KR and 2010 have the same HP and almost the same MAF size (113mm vs 108mm for the '10), are the stock '10's basically a KR tune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terumi71 Posted May 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 I'm out of the country right now but I'm going to look into it. They are different. Are you looking to put on a smaller pulley? Or just interested in if they are the same tune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrzyHorse Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 What if you got a VMP 2.59 pulley? Could u keep the stock KR tune? If you added the lower pulley could you keep the stock tune? I am kind of confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbypt Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 From what I heard, you can install the TVS without a tune, but when you go with a pulley smaller than 2.8" the computer can't adjust for that much of a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frydguy79 Posted May 28, 2011 Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 great thread!!,, now if only we could turn off those nasty cats with out a tune ,, we would have it made Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terumi71 Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 No. No tune required. I wouldn't put on a 2.59 pulley though. Too small. Too much heat buildup with the supercharger spinning too fast. 2.72 is as low as I would go. You might dyno initially at a higher hp if you want to be a dyno king. But your driving around hp will be less than a 2.72 pulley. You drive the car around then dyno it right away without cooling down, the 2.72 wlll have higher hp IMHO. You should just put the tvs on and be done w it. It's not until you go above 650 rwhp that you have to tune the kr for any mods. If a compilation of mods, including the 2.59 pulley, if those total mods puts you above 650 rwhp, then tune required. Hp is a derivative of CFM. And if the engine can measure te greater CFM, no tune required. The kr as it sits stock can handle much more CFM. Hope that helps! Again, tvs!! A much better way to go than such a small pulley! Too much heat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terumi71 Posted May 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 From what I heard, you can install the TVS without a tune, but when you go with a pulley smaller than 2.8" the computer can't adjust for that much of a difference. I think 2.7 Maybe 2.6, as long as not doing anything else like tb, etc..... Referring to the article: _______________________________________ Another note since CFM is a direct relation to HP this is how a computer can/will calculate the torque the motor is making at a given RPM.(one way how torque management works/is calculated) It takes 1.5 CFM to make 1 hp Knowing this, you can take a mass air voltage/reading from your MAF and calculate how much HP your engine is making.(But again only if you know the meter and meter curve is accurate) Believe it or not this is how top fuel teams figure out how much HP their engines make(Hard to dyno an engine making 5000hp plus HP, no dyno can really read that high, until maybe the last couple of years) They measure how much CFM the engine is moving and then calculated that into HP _________________________________________________________________________ So the pulley being 2.7 or 2.6 is going to result in a CFM. Provided the kr MAF sensor can measure that CFM, no tune. The kr is capable of measuring a CFM up to about 800hp, or 650 rwhp. Those numbers are conservative. It's really about 675 rwhp. 650 rwhp keeps you safe. For each .1 smaller on pulley size on the tvs, it's about 15-18hp. The smaller you go, the more heat. When I do this, I will put the L&M 66mm tb and L&M plenum and a 2.8 pulley with the tvs. That should bring me to 650 rwhp. No tune. That's the plan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terumi71 Posted May 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 And it's not the computer not being able to adjust. The computer will adjust if it gets the correct data input. In this case, CFM. If you start going above 800hp, its not so much tuning as it is replacing sensors. The MAF system needs to be upgraded so it can measure the increased CFM. This MAF upgrade will include a new MAF curve. Also in going above 800hp, fuel pump and injectors will need to be addressed also. But you'll have the same computer. Again, it can adjust. It just needs accurate input. So these are the reasons that you need to, "tune", in going above 800hp. Not so much a, "tune", as everyone traditionally thinks. It's about bolting these new things on the car, then inputting the new software. Then the same rules apply. You don't touch the new MAF curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REAL ONE Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Adding the TVS is tempting at the prices they have dropped to. But... I keep coming back to the basic proposition that the problem with the KR is not Hp and Torque, its got plenty of that stock....the problem is hooking up all that power to the ground!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08KR525 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Adding the TVS is tempting at the prices they have dropped to. But... I keep coming back to the basic proposition that the problem with the KR is not Hp and Torque, its got plenty of that stock....the problem is hooking up all that power to the ground!!!! Answer: Drag Radials and a good UCA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbypt Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 Adding the TVS is tempting at the prices they have dropped to. But... I keep coming back to the basic proposition that the problem with the KR is not Hp and Torque, its got plenty of that stock....the problem is hooking up all that power to the ground!!!! How about all those times you roll on the power in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear? That's a lot more fun with the TVS! And there's very littke spin in the higher gears I agree that the KR has plenty of power, but with the TVS it's just better :-) Bottom line with our KRs is enjoy them the way u like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Breech Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 What is TVS and where can I get one for my KR? Bolt on where and by whom? Thanks in advance. What about rear suspension work ? Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali_KR Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 What is TVS and where can I get one for my KR? Bolt on where and by whom? Thanks in advance. What about rear suspension work ? Don TVS stands for Twin Vortices Series, best deal is from Tousley Ford (google them for their number), just bolt-on, plug 'n' play with the KR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terumi71 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revan Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Ok, reviving a second old thread today, lol!I read the article you posted and it all makes perfect sense. So now I'm getting curious to compare my custom tune to the KR tune I had before it (still using the KR 113mm intake, so the same MAF curve should still apply if I understood everything correctly). I trust my tuner, but i'm curious and like to look at things like this. So, is there a program we can use to load the tune and display the MAF curve like blackshelby's article showed? Not looking to modify the tune, just want to read and compare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08KR525 Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Revan if I were you I would pm Blackshelby and I'm sure he could tell you how to do what your looking for. GL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revan Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Will do, thanks man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Beyond Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Let us know what you find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelbyKR664 Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Yes, good timing. All very good information from all parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Will do, thanks man! Yeah, let us know what you find out. Black Shelby has tuned a couple of cars for guys on the SVT Performance forum and ALL rave about his work. I asked about getting one of his tunes and was told he no longer does it. Dennis Gomes from TASCA supposedly tunes and tunes the same way Black Shelby does. Has anyone had Dennis tune their car? I'm interested in getting a tune but only if it's done like Black Shelby says to do it. Is there anyone that knows who will do that??? TIA, Phill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revan Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 So just to keep everyone up to date, blackshelby and I talked over PM and indeed the KR tune will work safely with my setup, even though I have the VMP version of the TVS. Now just to make sure people understand WHY it's ok for ME to do it: - I'm still using the Ford Racing 113mm intake that came with the KR tune, therefore the MAF curve is the same whether using the stock m122 blower or the tvs. - I'm only running a 2.8" pulley (got it from a guy who had a FRPP TVS when he swapped to a smaller pulley) and so at that airflow level (should be around 14psi boost) it's not flowing enough to overload the MAF signal. If I had a 2.4" pulley then it would probably be a different story. - I'm still within the capacity of the stock fuel system at this boost level (factory pumps, rails, and injectors). If I was pushing past those limits then I would have to upgrade components of the fuel system and a new tune would be required because of that. I'm also running the Ford Racing 65mm cobrajet throttle body (the stock TB is 60mm on this car). It doesn't necessitate a change to the MAF curve but it does allow more air volume to flow so the computer will take a little time to readjust after being flashed, as it learns the bigger TB. I can tell you from my experience with my custom tune that the engine simply idle's way higher than it should (around 2500 RPM) until the computer figures everything out. After that it's all good. I'm travelling for work this week but I plan to put my KR tune back on when I get home friday. I'll be happy knowing that it's running super conservative (i.e. SAFE) for now until I can get the proper measuring devices on the car (widebands for A/F, boost, etc.) so I can then get my custom tune worked out. The shop said they only heard it knock a few times at redline so I'm thinking it probably only needs some minor tweaks. In the meantime I went searching for possible means to retrofit a knock sensor on the car since the 07-09 didn't come with them. Obviously I wouldn't be able to tie a knock sensor into the ECU since it wasn't designed to use one but at least having a display of the knock signal would allow me to see it if it happened so I could get out of the throttle. I found two possibilities: 1. There's the knocklink G4 (http://www.linkecu.com/products/TuningTools/knocklink_g4) which flashes a light if knock is detected. It appears to work as advertised from what I saw on youtube. 2. Then there's the vampire ( ) which seems to be popular with the 03-04 cobra guys from what I saw on svtperformance.com. It costs twice as much but it appears to be more advanced, and can even retard timing to individual cylinders to stop them from knocking. Looks like it splices into the coil wiring harness and so it can pull timing for a specific cylinder, so it doesn't matter if your ECU supports that or not cause this system takes care of it and the ECU is none the wiser. So I'm curious....does anyone here have experience with either of these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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