georgefrye Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 I cannot get any support from my dealer to address the problem I have with my 2011 Shelby.. The dealer I bought my Shelby from tells me I don't have a problem with my 1-2 shift. Of course when I go above 3k and try to speed shift it won't go in gear and just rakes the gears which really upsets me. My dealer (Dunn/Benson ford in Dunn NC) tells me it is my problem and they can't find anything wrong. It shifts fine going through the rest of the gears at high rpm and speed shifting. I drag raced all through the 50s,60s and in to the 70s so I know how to speed shift. It feels like the 2nd gear synchronizers are bad. I have email Ford customer service, no reply. I don't know what to do at this point except keep my rpm down and granny shift, not what a Shelby was designed to do. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10random Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Do NOT speed shift. This isn't something the TR6060 is very fond of doing. Price you pay for having 500+ ft lb of torque and a larger speed difference between the 1-2 shift. There have been several guides posted about the best way to shift this transmission for 1-2. It's a different beast that takes some adjusting. For the folks that can't adjust, this isn't the transmission for you :/ 1) Clutch ALL the way to the floor 2) Then shift while putting some pressure towards you on the shifter 3) Lift clutch and then apply gas again Some other factors that help, if under heavy wheel spin, it's best to back off throttle and get up to speed than slamming into second. Over revving the motor in first and then shifting also seems to increase the chance of a grind, which is easier to do with heavy wheelspin. Best to shift right before or at redline. That being said, maybe someone in the area can chime in on a dealer that is better at evaluating and addressing your concerns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerseygator Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 You posted a very "absolute" statement and no, it is NOT absolute as your statement implies. I've posted several videos from within my car while doing exactly what you state "cannot" be done. Not everyone has this issue. I have made many dragstrip passes with my tr6060 and it's smooth as butter. How come he does it so well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG223 Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Some cars have issues and some don't. You can't dismiss it as the driver when there are numerous people who have torn the transmissions down and found trashed internals, unless you are to say the driver broke the transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torched10 Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 I cannot get any support from my dealer to address the problem I have with my 2011 Shelby.. The dealer I bought my Shelby from tells me I don't have a problem with my 1-2 shift. Of course when I go above 3k and try to speed shift it won't go in gear and just rakes the gears which really upsets me. My dealer (Dunn/Benson ford in Dunn NC) tells me it is my problem and they can't find anything wrong. It shifts fine going through the rest of the gears at high rpm and speed shifting. I drag raced all through the 50s,60s and in to the 70s so I know how to speed shift. It feels like the 2nd gear synchronizers are bad. I have email Ford customer service, no reply. I don't know what to do at this point except keep my rpm down and granny shift, not what a Shelby was designed to do. George do a search here--there are plenty of posts on what parts are needed to "fix" the problem,and whats worked and what hasnt. Mine also is fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSD Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Do NOT speed shift. This isn't something the TR6060 is very fond of doing. Price you pay for having 500+ ft lb of torque and a larger speed difference between the 1-2 shift. There have been several guides posted about the best way to shift this transmission for 1-2. It's a different beast that takes some adjusting. For the folks that can't adjust, this isn't the transmission for you :/ 1) Clutch ALL the way to the floor 2) Then shift while putting some pressure towards you on the shifter 3) Lift clutch and then apply gas again Some other factors that help, if under heavy wheel spin, it's best to back off throttle and get up to speed than slamming into second. Over revving the motor in first and then shifting also seems to increase the chance of a grind, which is easier to do with heavy wheelspin. Best to shift right before or at redline. That being said, maybe someone in the area can chime in on a dealer that is better at evaluating and addressing your concerns Torque has nothing to do with it whatsoever. The engine is disengaged from the driveline when the grinds occur. Don't make excuses for Ford. Why aren't 07-09 owners experiencing this? They have the same trans, just different 5th and 6th gear ratios. The bottom line is Ford has a DEFECT on their hands they need to address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawdude Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Shifting under power with N2MB WOT Box results in NO 1-2 crunch. There is a way to set the device so it engages prior to full throttle. I don't know how it works, but it works. For $150 you can mask the defect so as to make it a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10random Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Torque has nothing to do with it whatsoever. The engine is disengaged from the driveline when the grinds occur. Don't make excuses for Ford. Why aren't 07-09 owners experiencing this? They have the same trans, just different 5th and 6th gear ratios. The bottom line is Ford has a DEFECT on their hands they need to address. "The engine is disengaged from the driveline when the grinds occur." - I don't think it is in most cases, which is why the grind occurs and the transmission setup is more sensitive than most. There are some folks with a transmission that is MUCH worse than others, but trying to speed shift shouldn't be expected. I am not making excuses for Ford. I am saying, to date, it's the nature of the beast with the TR6060 in all platforms. My 07 experienced the same issues. The occasional 1-2 grind when the above conditions where not met. I am sure some transmissions are more sensitive to this than others, based on build date and materials. I adjusted my driving style and the issue is pretty much gone and I enjoy driving the car greatly. The WOT box will remove my concerns as it ensures the load is removed before shifting. Should the Tremec operate perfectly? Yes. Are Ford and the other manufacturers working on a fix? Probably, but then again we don't know the big picture. We only get to see the folks who are active in the online community, who have no problem airing their frustrations To date there has not been a clear reason or fix for the 1-2 grind in the TR6060 regardless of the car it's in. If someone does know, please clue me in! I know there was a detailed post on the parts used to fix on transmission, but I believe it has issues engaging second altogether. My statements have only applied to the occasional grind in 1-2 under WOT, which I have seen in my 2007 and 2010, both were fixed by driving style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerseygator Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 I grind occassionally. Personally I attribute it to user error. When it works its like the video said, "Butter" This is a high voltage topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010KonaBlueGT Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 "The engine is disengaged from the driveline when the grinds occur." Let me change that so it is more accurate: "The engine SHOULD BE disengaged from the driveline when the grinds occur". It is true that the friiction plate (which is attatched to the input shaft via splines) is still spinning at nearly the same RPM as the engine was at WHEN THE CLUTCH WAS DISENGAGED but the longer between moving the shift lever from P1 to P2, the slower the input shaft will be spinning due to natural friction. If it continues to spin AT the same rpm as the engine is at, it is because the friction plate is dragging for some reason and hte flywheel &/or pressure plate is making contact with the friction disc and keeping it spinning. REGARDLESS, the nature of a syncro ring/hub/blocker SHOULD sycnronize the speed of the two gears that are about to engage with each other and negate ANY grinding. Whch is why *I* have said all along that this is a smiple syncro problem. If it did it in EVERY GEAR (or shift), I'd say otherwise but it primarily happens on a 1-2 shift so my suspicion is that the 2nd gear syncro ring or hub or blocker/s are the problem. I'd put money on it that if I get a problematic transmission, I'll be able to see the problem and tell you what the fix is. Now, having said that....it COULD also be a tight gear on a shaft (out of tolerance) which wouldn't allow the gear to spin at it's predetermined "natural" speed (be it faster or slower). It could be that they snycro assembly just can't get the gear up to speed due to a tight fit on a gear shaft. But THAT should be easy enough to find too. I think we all just need someone real familiar with standard transmissions to get involved and who isn't biased (i.e. works for Ford, Tremac, etc.) so we can get a HONEST, truthfull and unbiased diagnosis. I tell ya whut....I"ll volunteer my time (free, NO CHARGE) to ANY transmission shop in my area (Co. Springs or Pueblo CO, Denver CO if I had to as it's a ways to travel) that is willing to give me the area with a clean tear-down bench and who has the propper tools in their shop (so I don't have to drag my big ass Roll Cab around!). I am both GM certified and ASE certified in Manual Transmissions and Transaxles (actually, I am Master Tech certified which includes those.) AND I have more years experience on production rebuilding/repairing manual transmissions than I can remember, PLUS all of the many many MANY years of building/rebuilding (we don't "repair" them) race prepared manual transmissions...and believe me when I tell you, they are TWO TOTALLY different animals. I keep hearing the symptoms and I keep thinking to myself...IT CAN'T BE THAT HARD, FOLKS! It's a freakin' gear grind fer chripes sake. And specifically, a gear grind in one particular circumstance. It they were all different, I'd be quiet as a house mouse! Anyone wanna take me up on that offer? Phill Pollard (I have more shingles hanging on my wall than I have on my roof!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10random Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Let me change that so it is more accurate: "The engine SHOULD BE disengaged from the driveline when the grinds occur". It is true that the friiction plate (which is attatched to the input shaft via splines) is still spinning at nearly the same RPM as the engine was at WHEN THE CLUTCH WAS DISENGAGED but the longer between moving the shift lever from P1 to P2, the slower the input shaft will be spinning due to natural friction. If it continues to spin AT the same rpm as the engine is at, it is because the friction plate is dragging for some reason and hte flywheel &/or pressure plate is making contact with the friction disc and keeping it spinning. REGARDLESS, the nature of a syncro ring/hub/blocker SHOULD sycnronize the speed of the two gears that are about to engage with each other and negate ANY grinding. Whch is why *I* have said all along that this is a smiple syncro problem. If it did it in EVERY GEAR (or shift), I'd say otherwise but it primarily happens on a 1-2 shift so my suspicion is that the 2nd gear syncro ring or hub or blocker/s are the problem. I'd put money on it that if I get a problematic transmission, I'll be able to see the problem and tell you what the fix is. Now, having said that....it COULD also be a tight gear on a shaft (out of tolerance) which wouldn't allow the gear to spin at it's predetermined "natural" speed (be it faster or slower). It could be that they snycro assembly just can't get the gear up to speed due to a tight fit on a gear shaft. But THAT should be easy enough to find too. I think we all just need someone real familiar with standard transmissions to get involved and who isn't biased (i.e. works for Ford, Tremac, etc.) so we can get a HONEST, truthfull and unbiased diagnosis. I tell ya whut....I"ll volunteer my time (free, NO CHARGE) to ANY transmission shop in my area (Co. Springs or Pueblo CO, Denver CO if I had to as it's a ways to travel) that is willing to give me the area with a clean tear-down bench and who has the propper tools in their shop (so I don't have to drag my big ass Roll Cab around!). I am both GM certified and ASE certified in Manual Transmissions and Transaxles (actually, I am Master Tech certified which includes those.) AND I have more years experience on production rebuilding/repairing manual transmissions than I can remember, PLUS all of the many many MANY years of building/rebuilding (we don't "repair" them) race prepared manual transmissions...and believe me when I tell you, they are TWO TOTALLY different animals. I keep hearing the symptoms and I keep thinking to myself...IT CAN'T BE THAT HARD, FOLKS! It's a freakin' gear grind fer chripes sake. And specifically, a gear grind in one particular circumstance. It they were all different, I'd be quiet as a house mouse! Anyone wanna take me up on that offer? Phill Pollard (I have more shingles hanging on my wall than I have on my roof!) I wish you were in my area, we share the same desire and interest on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerseygator Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 I want 2010KonaBlueGT on myside on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG223 Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 "The engine is disengaged from the driveline when the grinds occur." - I don't think it is in most cases, which is why the grind occurs and the transmission setup is more sensitive than most. There are some folks with a transmission that is MUCH worse than others, but trying to speed shift shouldn't be expected. I am not making excuses for Ford. I am saying, to date, it's the nature of the beast with the TR6060 in all platforms. My 07 experienced the same issues. The occasional 1-2 grind when the above conditions where not met. I am sure some transmissions are more sensitive to this than others, based on build date and materials. I adjusted my driving style and the issue is pretty much gone and I enjoy driving the car greatly. The WOT box will remove my concerns as it ensures the load is removed before shifting. Should the Tremec operate perfectly? Yes. Are Ford and the other manufacturers working on a fix? Probably, but then again we don't know the big picture. We only get to see the folks who are active in the online community, who have no problem airing their frustrations To date there has not been a clear reason or fix for the 1-2 grind in the TR6060 regardless of the car it's in. If someone does know, please clue me in! I know there was a detailed post on the parts used to fix on transmission, but I believe it has issues engaging second altogether. My statements have only applied to the occasional grind in 1-2 under WOT, which I have seen in my 2007 and 2010, both were fixed by driving style. That is simply not true. The CTS-V, nor the Corvette have this problem. Nor does the Viper. Nor do ANY of the custom built TR6060 setups out there. The GT500 has a problem, not sure what it (or combination of "its" that it is), but it does indeed have a design flaw that I hope Ford figures out. Either that, or they got a bad batch of parts/transmissions or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10random Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 That is simply not true. The CTS-V, nor the Corvette have this problem. Nor does the Viper. Nor do ANY of the custom built TR6060 setups out there. The GT500 has a problem, not sure what it (or combination of "its" that it is), but it does indeed have a design flaw that I hope Ford figures out. Either that, or they got a bad batch of parts/transmissions or something. Searching disagrees with you. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=TR6060+gear+grind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010GT500Cyclist Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Searching disagrees with you. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=TR6060+gear+grind Love it. I have read about some Vette owners with the same complaint as well. Hey, they are the Government Motors now, so we KNOW it will be taken care of, right? New cars for everyone, charge it to China, and our kids and our grand kids. I have been told that trying to shift to second while there is wheel spin is a big no no. My guess is that it will eat up the synchro;s in very short order. Count me in the "No Grind" issue category. My 2010 is the best shifting car that I have owned, This includes 4 fox bodies, 3 of them 5.0's, a 2006 Roush stage 3 and now this Shelby. (two V-6's for the kids that I don't count) The closest that I ever came to a grind was when I first got my Roush and realized I was rushing the shift too much with the extra power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GO-SVT Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 How come he does it so well? That bj dude must have showed him how to drive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG223 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Early vetts had issues. GM changed synchro's. Bail out is old news. What do you think of the 5.6 billion Ford is asking for while GM opted not to ask for a piece of that 20+B pie? or their other antics to extort money overseas? They all do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVT NAJA Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010GT500Cyclist Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Early vetts had issues. GM changed synchro's. Bail out is old news. What do you think of the 5.6 billion Ford is asking for while GM opted not to ask for a piece of that 20+B pie? or their other antics to extort money overseas? They all do this. So now you admit that the Vette had a 1-2 issue, which is it? As for the rest, what a load of twisted.............. You really are an interesting person. You sure spend a lot of time on the Shelby Forum for a guy that claims he is getting a new Corvette. There is a corvette forum, you can even read about their 1-2 shift issues there. Bailout is old news for who? GM is so far from paying it back, and now they want $7500 from the taxpayers for everyone that buys the POS Volt that nobody wants, and the Volt was going to be their savior. So much for that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG223 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Have and has. What's so hard to get? Character assassination isn't going to change the facts here. Op has a trans issue related to synchro's most likely. Yes, I bought a z06. Don't worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG223 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Have and had* dang butterfingers+ cell phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inyadreems Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 I cannot get any support from my dealer to address the problem I have with my 2011 Shelby.. The dealer I bought my Shelby from tells me I don't have a problem with my 1-2 shift. Of course when I go above 3k and try to speed shift it won't go in gear and just rakes the gears which really upsets me. My dealer (Dunn/Benson ford in Dunn NC) tells me it is my problem and they can't find anything wrong. It shifts fine going through the rest of the gears at high rpm and speed shifting. I drag raced all through the 50s,60s and in to the 70s so I know how to speed shift. It feels like the 2nd gear synchronizers are bad. I have email Ford customer service, no reply. I don't know what to do at this point except keep my rpm down and granny shift, not what a Shelby was designed to do. George Few suggestions: Try a different dealer Start a new post asking for dealer recommendations in the NC (this worked for me, I now love my dealer) Good advice from another post: Push clutch all the way down when shifting 1st to 2nd shift -- pull the stick a little towards you during the shift down 2nd to 3rd -- just push it up and don't put any side forces on it. Mine springs into third on its own. 3rd to 4th -- straight down 4th to 5th -- do this one slower and deliberately zig it to the right over through neutral and then up to 5th 5th to 6th -- push a little away from you as you go down Try swapping out the tranny fluid for some Amsoil Multi Synthetic ATF or Redline D4 Synthetic ATF. Good luck! Disclaimer: The following are just suggestions, not looking to get into a debate about the tranny, tranny fluid, Ford, GM............ETC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG223 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Few suggestions: Try a different dealer Start a new post asking for dealer recommendations in the NC (this worked for me, I now love my dealer) Good advice from another post: Push clutch all the way down when shifting 1st to 2nd shift -- pull the stick a little towards you during the shift down 2nd to 3rd -- just push it up and don't put any side forces on it. Mine springs into third on its own. 3rd to 4th -- straight down 4th to 5th -- do this one slower and deliberately zig it to the right over through neutral and then up to 5th 5th to 6th -- push a little away from you as you go down Try swapping out the tranny fluid for some Amsoil Multi Synthetic ATF or Redline D4 Synthetic ATF. Good luck! Disclaimer: The following are just suggestions, not looking to get into a debate about the tranny, tranny fluid, Ford, GM............ETC Transmission fluid swap is worth a go, but make sure you use something that meets Ford's spec so that it won't cause a warranty issue if/when you need to go to a dealer that will fix the problem if that does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2010GT500Cyclist Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Yes, I bought a z06. Don't worry about it. Not worried about it, I simply do not believe you. When someone speaks as if they know everything, in my experience they know very little. Anyone that claims to own a Corvette, yet wants to spend everyday (even Sunday AM) on a Shelby Enthusiast site being an antagonist has issues. Unfortunately, until the site sponsors realize that you actually drive away some that don't want to read your same old blather and twisted facts, we all get to share in your in your issues. Yawn. Every Major D-1 University has a Football Forum, and there is always one person from a rival school that just can't stay away and slams their rivals team on their own Forum. And, they go on and on and on, and beat a dead horse. Actual facts have nothing to do with it, just half truths and changing stories. In some twisted way, it is more fun for them to be on the rivals site then their own. They get plenty of reactions, which is really what they wanted all along. Sound familiar? It is a testament to the quality of actual Shelby owners and actual Shelby Enthusiasts that so many put up with you. A once in awhile dig would be one thing, but the constant attempt to dominate these boards by a GM guy is just weird, and rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawdude Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Off-topic stuff might be interesting in its own thread, or better yet, pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsarkis Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Early vetts had issues. GM changed synchro's. Bail out is old news. What do you think of the 5.6 billion Ford is asking for while GM opted not to ask for a piece of that 20+B pie? or their other antics to extort money overseas? They all do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG223 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Not worried about it, I simply do not believe you. When someone speaks as if they know everything, in my experience they know very little. Anyone that claims to own a Corvette, yet wants to spend everyday (even Sunday AM) on a Shelby Enthusiast site being an antagonist has issues. Unfortunately, until the site sponsors realize that you actually drive away some that don't want to read your same old blather and twisted facts, we all get to share in your in your issues. Yawn. Every Major D-1 University has a Football Forum, and there is always one person from a rival school that just can't stay away and slams their rivals team on their own Forum. And, they go on and on and on, and beat a dead horse. Actual facts have nothing to do with it, just half truths and changing stories. In some twisted way, it is more fun for them to be on the rivals site then their own. They get plenty of reactions, which is really what they wanted all along. Sound familiar? It is a testament to the quality of actual Shelby owners and actual Shelby Enthusiasts that so many put up with you. A once in awhile dig would be one thing, but the constant attempt to dominate these boards by a GM guy is just weird, and rude. Tell that to my best friend with a 2010 C6 Z06, or my dad with his 09 ZR1.....ya real old news. Btw vipers also have the bad shift issue....grow up and admit when your wrong If you decided to ever loose your envy for the Shelby boards and spent some time on the GM boards you would see the "new" synchros aren't working out for everyone, I'm talking about those with 2011's. Anyway, back to the OP, who doesn't own any of the above cars. No, you don't have to live with a grinding transmission just because you have a GT500. Look at a lot of people here who actually got a peek inside their trans. Trashed synchro's, etc. They fixed that and the problem went away. Put some time and energy into this and you will be rewarded with a sickhouse car that shifts just fine. To everyone else who wants to whine about my Z06: Go read the first page. I showed no bias for a Chevy product what-so-ever, lumping it in with Chrysler, Cadillac, and custom transmission shops. Yet you all wanted to bitch and whine about it. Really? You dominate your own forum with Chevy crap. Fail. You don't think I have a Z06? Start a thread about it and lets let OP get back to his problem--which ISN'T "just a fact" of owning a TR6060. Ask the GT500 owners who DON'T have issues. Ask the CTS-V, Viper, 'Vette, and custom TR6060 owners who don't have issues (vipers had a hydraulic issue that is solved by re-bleeding the system, or replacing the hydraulics, never heard of a CTS-V grinding, and the 'vette usually has problems only when people don't maintain the system or they get a factory defect--much like you got--although I hear about it much less often with the 'vette, but that is neither here nor there. The TR6060 is a great transmission is my point.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shel-b001 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Few suggestions: Try a different dealer Start a new post asking for dealer recommendations in the NC (this worked for me, I now love my dealer) Good advice from another post: Push clutch all the way down when shifting 1st to 2nd shift -- pull the stick a little towards you during the shift down 2nd to 3rd -- just push it up and don't put any side forces on it. Mine springs into third on its own. 3rd to 4th -- straight down 4th to 5th -- do this one slower and deliberately zig it to the right over through neutral and then up to 5th 5th to 6th -- push a little away from you as you go down Try swapping out the tranny fluid for some Amsoil Multi Synthetic ATF or Redline D4 Synthetic ATF. Good luck! Disclaimer: The following are just suggestions, not looking to get into a debate about the tranny, tranny fluid, Ford, GM............ETC Wow what happen to just shifting into gear Its shame you have to remember all that to get your car to go forward??????? Time to get it to a dealer & get it fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawdude Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Wow what happen to just shifting into gear Its shame you have to remember all that to get your car to go forward??????? Time to get it to a dealer & get it fixed. Ha ha, don't forget to pat yourself on the head with one hand while rubbing your tummy with the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shel-b001 Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Ha ha, don't forget to pat yourself on the head with one hand while rubbing your tummy with the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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