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Condor Block


BDrool

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I haven't built/rebuilt a motor in 30 years.

 

In this picture, the Condor block, the cylinder walls seem to be real thick. Is this the norm for a boosted motor? Could it be bored to get closer to 6.0l? If it could, I don't hp increasing much however, the tq would increase drastically. Does anybody have more insight on this? Eventually, these motors will have to be rebuilt.

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Would be pointless. You wouldn't get anywhere near 6.0L without increasing stroke as well which would destroy the motor in a heartbeat supercharged. The 5.4L already has huge issues with piston speed, that's why the GT500 has such a low stock rev limit.

 

 

V=pi* r^2*h *8 cylinders

 

Stock bore x stroke = 3.55 X 4.16

 

Bore .030 over:

 

3.14 * 1.79^2 * 4.16 * 8 =

 

334 CID or 5.47L.

 

Pretty pointless!

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i had my 389ci Pontiac bored out 60 over,and it went to 400ci--not much.I had to do it because I had 160,000 miles on the engine and it had worn 60,and had very bad blow-by

 

 

Yeah, I was just thinking because, the walls seem to be really thick that more could be taken out, for example .1". Just don't know how much must be there to hold back the boosted charge. It's a lot I know and it would mean new pistons as well. Piston speed would be an issue as stated and better rods would be required. ChrisD said pointless however, it will have to be done on high milage motor eventually, so why not go all out...

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Love the engine block photo, that is where I worked. I worked in the block department 8660 at Windsor Engine Plant for 8 years. I must have inspected about 800+ Condor blocks before shipping them to the Romeo niche line for assembly.

Today I'm at the Essex Engine 5.0 plant.

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Love the engine block photo, that is where I worked. I worked in the block department 8660 at Windsor Engine Plant for 8 years. I must have inspected about 800+ Condor blocks before shipping them to the Romeo niche line for assembly.

Today I'm at the Essex Engine 5.0 plant.

 

 

It must give you a real sense of pride to be involved with something as great as the GT500 is as well as the new 5.0.

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Yes, the older GT500 did, but is a few co more worth the imbalance?

 

 

 

Newsflash, the "Aluminum" block was just introduced for MY 2011. So maybe I misunderstand you when you say "older". How much older? My GT500 is a '10, new body, cold air, 510tq, 540hp, etc. But, the last year of the Iron block, that is not that long ago. I consider the '10 as very current, as wall as the '07-'09, so much so that it is not worth the tenth(s) of performance to even consider the aluminum block.

 

Just what imbalance are you refering to, the difference of 100lbs?! I don't race, I drive...

 

And in reference to your previous post, the iron block can be bored and honed. The Aluminum block is throw away until a cost effective repair is possible, might even be there now, I don't know that.

 

So just what is your point mister "Z06"? This is a muscle car forum that is specific to GT500's with an Iron block or Aluminum! THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

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And in reference to your previous post, the iron block can be bored and honed. The Aluminum block is throw away until a cost effective repair is possible, might even be there now, I don't know that.

 

 

Yes, Ford has already said they have a reman program for the new sprayed bore aluminum block in place.

 

That was one of *my* first concerns having experience with motorcycles and nickisill (close to the same process as spray bore) cylinders. You damage one, they're junk (chrome plated bores).

 

Ford nixed those worries in the bud, right away. Be assured that your 2011+ block is NOT a throw-away item should you score the bore.

 

Oh, you can't "oversize" them....at least not easily, or with present technology but you CAN repair a bore and retain your OE block.

 

 

At least that's what I read,

Phill

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Lol. You can't even hone the GT500 block. Much less bore it. Cylinder coating and all that.

 

 

Huh? That may be true of the 2011+ MY blocks but not of the '07-'10 blocks. That's really 'stretching it', dude.

 

Come on now bud, don't be so narrow minded that you can't see the forest for the trees. You'll lose even more credibility by putting that kind of 'spin' on your statements.

 

I've been one of the "you are entitled to your opinion" guys when it comes to you voicing you opinion on this forum but geeez, that's just TOO obviously biased (or "spin based").

 

Keep it real and so will I. Pop off with a bunch'a crazy BS and yer on yer own.

 

Not that you need MY help but quite honestly, you need all of the support you can get....although I don't support your THINKING, I support your ability or entitlement to have your own thoughts.

 

 

Regards,

Phill

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Yes, Ford has already said they have a reman program for the new sprayed bore aluminum block in place.

 

That was one of *my* first concerns having experience with motorcycles and nickisill (close to the same process as spray bore) cylinders. You damage one, they're junk (chrome plated bores).

 

Ford nixed those worries in the bud, right away. Be assured that your 2011+ block is NOT a throw-away item should you score the bore.

 

Oh, you can't "oversize" them....at least not easily, or with present technology but you CAN repair a bore and retain your OE block.

 

 

At least that's what I read,

Phill

 

 

That's awesome, I'll remember that.

 

BTW, does the Aluminum block have the same code name as the Iron block, if it even received one at all?

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Stock bore x stroke = 3.55 X 4.16

 

Bore .030 over:

 

3.14 * 1.79^2 * 4.16 * 8 =

334 CID or 5.47L.

 

 

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but you went from a "stock" bore of 3.55", added .030" and arrived at a overbore of 3.14".

 

I'm no mathamatician but in my book 3.55" + .030 = 3.53", not 3.14". You're showing a smaller bore after boring it 30 over....

 

What am I missing?

 

 

TIA,

Phill

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That's awesome, I'll remember that.

BTW, does the Aluminum block have the same code name as the Iron block, if it even received one at all?

 

 

No idea on the code name, maybe somone else more "in the know" can answer that for you.

 

But also be aware that with a aluminum block, you can repair a broken block!

 

We run a Arias/Roots (A/R) block in our 700+ci Brad Hadman Pro-Street '55 Chevy 'Shoebox". We haven't done it yet (knock on wood) but if we ever put a rod through the side of the block and/or punch a piece of the block out the side, it can be tig welded back in place. I've seen it done many MANY times. I"ve seen Al blocks that would otherwise be junk if they were iron, get repaired and be back on the track (but not in the same day, in most cases).

 

Having said that, we do use block filler so water passages aren't a big concern of ours but we DO run water through the top of the block and up through the (Dart 360) heads (we run NA, gasoline).

 

A street motor might be a little more apt to be runined if you went into a water passage (i.e. from the base of the bore up to the deck) but even *that* can be repaired by a good welder with a hi freq tig welder.

 

I've yet to see what a bare block (2011+ SVT spray bore) goes for so it might be more cost effective to just buy a new block at this point. All depending on what a bare block wiill cost.....

 

I'm REALLY waiting for a Al. replacement short block to come out so I can see what it would cost me to "upgrade" my 2010 Iron block to a new plasma bore Al. block! Now THAT is going to be intersting.

 

 

I hope, I hope, I hope,

Phill Pollard

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Huh? That may be true of the 2011+ MY blocks but not of the '07-'10 blocks. That's really 'stretching it', dude.

 

Come on now bud, don't be so narrow minded that you can't see the forest for the trees. You'll lose even more credibility by putting that kind of 'spin' on your statements.

 

I've been one of the "you are entitled to your opinion" guys when it comes to you voicing you opinion on this forum but geeez, that's just TOO obviously biased (or "spin based").

 

Keep it real and so will I. Pop off with a bunch'a crazy BS and yer on yer own.

 

Not that you need MY help but quite honestly, you need all of the support you can get....although I don't support your THINKING, I support your ability or entitlement to have your own thoughts.

 

 

Regards,

Phill

 

 

Stroking the stock block wouldn't result in enough displacement to matter unless you used a rod angle that was so out of whack as to defeat the purpose. Just add more boost/larger positive displacement SC and you will be much happier.

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Maybe I'm reading this wrong but you went from a "stock" bore of 3.55", added .030" and arrived at a overbore of 3.14".

 

I'm no mathamatician but in my book 3.55" + .030 = 3.53", not 3.14". You're showing a smaller bore after boring it 30 over....

 

What am I missing?

 

 

TIA,

Phill

 

3.14 is Pi.

 

3.55 + .030 over is 3.58 divide by 2 for 1.79 in the equation.

 

Formula:

 

V=pi* r^2*h *8 cylinders

 

V = CID

Pi = 3.14 rounded

r = radius ( half of bore )

^2 = squared

h = stroke

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Stroking the stock block wouldn't result in enough displacement to matter unless you used a rod angle that was so out of whack as to defeat the purpose. Just add more boost/larger positive displacement SC and you will be much happier.

 

 

Who said anything about "stroking". That could drastically harm the motor because thay are boosted. The stock compression ratio is 8.5:1. Nobody said stroke the block. Wait, you did...

 

My initial question was about "boring" because I noticed that the walls look to be extra thick. However, that Idea may not be worth it after some of the discussions already posted here and I was only looking to the future for when an engine rebuild may be needed.

 

Did you read the whole thread?

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Who said anything about "stroking". That could drastically harm the motor because thay are boosted. The stock compression ratio is 8.5:1. Nobody said stroke the block. Wait, you did...

 

My initial question was about "boring" because I noticed that the walls look to be extra thick. However, that Idea may not be worth it after some of the discussions already posted here and I was only looking to the future for when an engine rebuild may be needed.

 

Did you read the whole thread?

 

 

I figured stroking was included in boring because boring the block for larger displacement would be a lot of effort for just a few CI. I did not realize you ONLY meant to increase displacement by the small amount you did.

 

Diminishing returns as discussed previous. Might even be worse than not, depending on the mass of the pistons required to fill the slightly larger hole.

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I figured stroking was included in boring because boring the block for larger displacement would be a lot of effort for just a few CI. I did not realize you ONLY meant to increase displacement by the small amount you did.

 

Diminishing returns as discussed previous. Might even be worse than not, depending on the mass of the pistons required to fill the slightly larger hole.

 

 

The piston speed was mentioned by ChrisD, floating valves at higher revs would also be an issue. However, there are high revving big block's with pistons and rods that will hold. Depending on the amount that is removed, pistons would be required with rods, without stroking, that can hold the forces. There is no limit to aftermarket engine building/modding, except $$$. The extreme end would be 500+ cid alcohol burnig behemoths that produce 4000+hp. But, I only asked boring out the "condor" iron block for rebuild purposes.

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The piston speed was mentioned by ChrisD, floating valves at higher revs would also be an issue. However, there are high revving big block's with pistons and rods that will hold. Depending on the amount that is removed, pistons would be required with rods, without stroking, that can hold the forces. There is no limit to aftermarket engine building/modding, except $$$. The extreme end would be 500+ cid alcohol burnig behemoths that produce 4000+hp. But, I only asked boring out the "condor" iron block for rebuild purposes.

 

 

http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/pricesheets/ford/dailydriver/tt/dds_427_428sbf_tt.pdf

 

Check that out ^ Looks like an attractive option if you are looking to go all-out.

 

If all you want to do is re-build the motor, why not buy the aluminum block from Ford Racing and balance the car better with it? Might even get the complete short-block and save some labor/make sure it was done right. I think that would be a better idea than a few more ci.

 

It will be a long time before that engine dies, though. Ford engines last a long time. Very long time. That is one problem domestics left back in the "golden years".

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http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/pricesheets/ford/dailydriver/tt/dds_427_428sbf_tt.pdf

 

Check that out ^ Looks like an attractive option if you are looking to go all-out.

 

If all you want to do is re-build the motor, why not buy the aluminum block from Ford Racing and balance the car better with it? Might even get the complete short-block and save some labor/make sure it was done right. I think that would be a better idea than a few more ci.

 

It will be a long time before that engine dies, though. Ford engines last a long time. Very long time. That is one problem domestics left back in the "golden years".

 

 

I don't plan on swapping blocks. I would keep that as original as posible. Also, this is just me, I'm not convinced on the durability of the spray bore tech yet, time will tell and I could be swayed.

 

Ford did some EXTENSIVE testing on the V-6 in the F150 and it just blew my mind that it showed hardly no wear. That, however, was a sleeved AL block, why didn't Ford use the spray bore tech? I haven't seen any testing as harsh as that on the spray bore tech to totally convince me. Constant expansion and contraction, iron not sticking to aluminum, etc. Time will tell. Yeah, it's a great block and it is setting standards... I'm just not convinced yet so I'll stay with Iron or sleeves.

 

And your right, it will be a long time. I was just curious and thinking into the future, but who knows, spray bore may be the only thing out there by then.

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I don't plan on swapping blocks. I would keep that as original as posible. Also, this is just me, I'm not convinced on the durability of the spray bore tech yet, time will tell and I could be swayed.

 

Ford did some EXTENSIVE testing on the V-6 in the F150 and it just blew my mind that it showed hardly no wear. That, however, was a sleeved AL block, why didn't Ford use the spray bore tech? I haven't seen any testing as harsh as that on the spray bore tech to totally convince me. Constant expansion and contraction, iron not sticking to aluminum, etc. Time will tell. Yeah, it's a great block and it is setting standards... I'm just not convinced yet so I'll stay with Iron or sleeves.

 

And your right, it will be a long time. I was just curious and thinking into the future, but who knows, spray bore may be the only thing out there by then.

 

 

Nissan has used Ford's technology on the GT-R blocks since the YM2009 GT-R. I have not heard of it failing yet, and there have been some sick GT-R builds. It's good stuff.

 

By the time that engine dies, all the rubber, the rear-end, the bushings, the transmission, rubber seals, everything else will probably need work, too, on the car. I really have yet to see an American car that has not rotted around the engine (barring catastrophic failure, but since you aren't going to mod, as OEM is what you are into, that should be unlikely). My 1988 mustang 5.0 was running strong when I bought it in 2005 after it sat rotting on someone's lawn for a couple years.

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