N/A Shelby GT350....

[SWEDEMAN]

I believe a N/A version of the GT350 would be a strong selling car for the purest and track minded enthusiast. Will the profit margin keep SA from making the car...possibly. However the volume, which today is the way to go, could be extremely high due to the price of the SC'd GT350. I for one think the car could be done like the SGT and could possibly be a pre-titled car as well which would make it seem like yesteryear. If they did it would FORD go along with it, now that is the million dollar question because it would compete with the Boss due to come out soon.

Would you buy a N/A GT350?

[John Canfield]

I posted an earlier thread asking if Shelby was missing the boat by not still offering a SGT, much the same type of vehicle you aare describing here. I think they are, and that there is such a market out there for it. Look at Roush and their Stage 1 (non-supercharged) cars. They sell tons of them, and they're paying the bills ot develop the higher dollar higher performance cars.

[kahmann]

Personally, I'd love to see an NA GT-350 and would consider lots of things in order to buy one, short of selling my SGT.

However, it's a tough game for SA to play. I'm sure you'll recall the criticisms levied towards the SGT in the performance department and the difficulty dealers had unloading them at their advertised price. Adding a blower is the easiest bang for the buck, doesn't impact CARB certification, and allows for a generous markup (parts & labor).

What kind of NA GT-350 would you want to see? If built in the same spirit as the SGT, you can't expect much - off the shelf cold air intake, x-pipe, mufflers, and a tune?

 

There are two different routes I'd love to see SA take with a naturally aspirated GT-350 that would set it apart from the SC'ed GT-350 (and that other fancy Mustang that SVT builds).

 

1- Build a CARB compliant, NA powerhouse, coupled with identical styling as the Whippled GT-350. Stage 1 cams, intake, shortys, pulleys, throttle body, catted x-pipe, aggressive axle backs, etc. From what I've read of the Coyote, trying to rebuild engine internals ought not to be on the table with an NA build. This would be one of the most involved Mustang builds that SA would attempt in decades, but would appeal to the die hard NA enthusiast.

 

2- Build a street legal GT-350R. Forgo the engine mods, short of a simple cold air intake, mild exhaust upgrades, and tune, and instead spend your efforts tastefully shedding weight and maxing out handling ability. Ditch the expensive and bloated interior upgrades for a bare bones but streetable, Cobra R-style interior - race buckets, rear seat delete, fire extinguisher, useful additional gauges, etc. Aside from that, ditch the struts at all 4 corners in favor of coil overs, watts link, tubular control arms, heim joints, 18" lightweight rims, serious tread, etc. Perhaps even call on some real racing suspension experts like Griggs for a joint effort.

 

If an NA GT-350 were to come to fruition close to either of these options, I'd jump all over it. But if SA builds another SGT with 'GT-350' written on the side, I'd probably take a pass, especially if it's price tag was anywhere near that of the current GT-350.

[khood1]

Really like option 2. In fact, I think I wrote something similar in another post. The only potential problem I see would be the cost. What you'd save by deleting the SC you'd more than spend back on a Griggs setup. The Griggs SS package installed would probably be a wash but if you went with their ST, TT or RT you're looking at quite a bit more. Not a bad thing...they are all great setups but you could be looking at an additional $5k to $15k more.

 

Personally, I'd love to see an NA GT-350 and would consider lots of things in order to buy one, short of selling my SGT.

However, it's a tough game for SA to play. I'm sure you'll recall the criticisms levied towards the SGT in the performance department and the difficulty dealers had unloading them at their advertised price. Adding a blower is the easiest bang for the buck, doesn't impact CARB certification, and allows for a generous markup (parts & labor).

What kind of NA GT-350 would you want to see? If built in the same spirit as the SGT, you can't expect much - off the shelf cold air intake, x-pipe, mufflers, and a tune?

 

There are two different routes I'd love to see SA take with a naturally aspirated GT-350 that would set it apart from the SC'ed GT-350 (and that other fancy Mustang that SVT builds).

 

1- Build a CARB compliant, NA powerhouse, coupled with identical styling as the Whippled GT-350. Stage 1 cams, intake, shortys, pulleys, throttle body, catted x-pipe, aggressive axle backs, etc. From what I've read of the Coyote, trying to rebuild engine internals ought not to be on the table with an NA build. This would be one of the most involved Mustang builds that SA would attempt in decades, but would appeal to the die hard NA enthusiast.

 

2- Build a street legal GT-350R. Forgo the engine mods, short of a simple cold air intake, mild exhaust upgrades, and tune, and instead spend your efforts tastefully shedding weight and maxing out handling ability. Ditch the expensive and bloated interior upgrades for a bare bones but streetable, Cobra R-style interior - race buckets, rear seat delete, fire extinguisher, useful additional gauges, etc. Aside from that, ditch the struts at all 4 corners in favor of coil overs, watts link, tubular control arms, heim joints, 18" lightweight rims, serious tread, etc. Perhaps even call on some real racing suspension experts like Griggs for a joint effort.

 

If an NA GT-350 were to come to fruition close to either of these options, I'd jump all over it. But if SA builds another SGT with 'GT-350' written on the side, I'd probably take a pass, especially if it's price tag was anywhere near that of the current GT-350.

 

[NordicShelby]

I am sure they will come out with a N/A GT350, if it will sell more packages why wouldn't they.........

[MMcGuirk]

My car will be naturally aspirated........ only as long as it takes them to bolt on the blower!

[sportscars]

A n/a GT350?

 

I'll make some calls. Seriously.

 

All you had to do was ask!

[MustangSal500]

i'll have to recheck when i get home but in the latest issue of HOT ROD mag, there was an article about ford racing producing 2011 n/a vehicles. showed all these 2011 shells sitting in a warehouse.

[SWEDEMAN]

I agree about the lack of horse power in the 2007-08 Shelby GT's but we are not talking lack of horse power in the new 2011 coyote engines. They already turn out about 412 @ the crank bone stock and with a cold air kit and some other goodies this car would and could reach close to 500. But I see your point that people would just say "why not buy the Mustang GT and do some mods yourself and save about $5-7K in the name recognition alone". So SA would jhave to come up with at least 70+ new HP to make it worth their while and the publics while. But with the times as lean as they are now any new production model that has to do with bolt-on power goodies would make sense for SAI and add to profits. On the flip side, it could kill the GT350 with the SC gross profits too. Hard decision but they'll probably do it after the SC'd GT350's have run their course.

All in all though a N/A Shelby GT350 just sounds great and with the 70+ added hp I think it would fly in limited productions and could be a pre-titled car, maybe. Even if it wasn't a pre-titles car it would still be a big hp car & N/A to boot.

[Son of GT]

Mark my words here...do not be suprised if your wishes/desires for a NA 350 come true...

[cobrakalas427]

Mark my words here...do not be suprised if your wishes/desires for a NA 350 come true...

 

 

That would be an answer to previous requests when the GT350 was first announced in January. If the price could drop by about $10K, the amount of willing/capable buyers would probably increase and SAI could upfit more cars and therefore make more $$ thus thwarting off extinction of the brand.

[sportscars]

Mark my words here...do not be suprised if your wishes/desires for a NA 350 come true...

 

 

Yea-yea, I've already made the call Enis.

 

Whats that quote from the Ten Commandments? "So it is written, so shall it be done" I think...

[MMcGuirk]

i'll have to recheck when i get home but in the latest issue of HOT ROD mag, there was an article about ford racing producing 2011 n/a vehicles. showed all these 2011 shells sitting in a warehouse.

 

 

 

Those shells are Body in White cars slated for various NHRA class builds. You can order one through FRPP.

 

 

[MMcGuirk]

I agree about the lack of horse power in the 2007-08 Shelby GT's but we are not talking lack of horse power in the new 2011 coyote engines. They already turn out about 412 @ the crank bone stock and with a cold air kit and some other goodies this car would and could reach close to 500. But I see your point that people would just say "why not buy the Mustang GT and do some mods yourself and save about $5-7K in the name recognition alone". So SA would jhave to come up with at least 70+ new HP to make it worth their while and the publics while. But with the times as lean as they are now any new production model that has to do with bolt-on power goodies would make sense for SAI and add to profits. On the flip side, it could kill the GT350 with the SC gross profits too. Hard decision but they'll probably do it after the SC'd GT350's have run their course.

All in all though a N/A Shelby GT350 just sounds great and with the 70+ added hp I think it would fly in limited productions and could be a pre-titled car, maybe. Even if it wasn't a pre-titles car it would still be a big hp car & N/A to boot.

 

 

70hp would be tough with a CAI and a tune on a n/a Coyote motor. Realistic gains would be more in the 20 to 25hp range. You would need cams, throttle body, etc to achieve that kind of a gain.

 

Keep in mind Shelby American is a manufacturer and would have to have CARB/EPA certs, so it would probably be stock HP.

 

 

 

[cobrakalas427]

Yea-yea, I've already made the call Enis.

 

Whats that quote from the Ten Commandments? "So it is written, so shall it be done" I think...

 

Famous words of Ramses II (played by Yul Brenner) to Moses (Charleton Heston)...Awesome movie...especially for 1956!

[DubbsFaris]

Man, I thought that was from West World....

 

N/A huh? Hmm, Frankly, I keep flip flopping on this issue....and its ALL your fault Michael....convo went something like this:

 

McG: Why not just go ahead and get it with the SC?

 

Me: Well, if its N/A it qualifies for NASA and SCCA stock classes.

 

McG: Dont they have a weight limit?

 

Me: Well, the car is much lighter than the prev-

 

McG: No dude, the driver I mean...

 

Me: You know, the extra power might not hurt when you put it like that...

 

[Torch40]

Yea-yea, I've already made the call Enis.

 

Whats that quote from the Ten Commandments? "So it is written, so shall it be done" I think...

 

 

Close enough, ha ha. "So let it be written. So let it be done."

What a great old movie.

[sportscars]

Man, I thought that was from West World....

 

N/A huh? Hmm, Frankly, I keep flip flopping on this issue....and its ALL your fault Michael....convo went something like this:

 

McG: Why not just go ahead and get it with the SC?

 

Me: Well, if its N/A it qualifies for NASA and SCCA stock classes.

 

McG: Dont they have a weight limit?

 

Me: Well, the car is much lighter than the prev-

 

McG: No dude, the driver I mean...

 

Me: You know, the extra power might not hurt when you put it like that...

 

 

 

What you seem to be forgeting is:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will be driving the GT350, not you!

 

[DubbsFaris]

You know, while we are on famous lines-

 

I am my brother's keeper....

 

But I don't remember a line that I have to give him a GT350....

 

Dream on bro...but hey, being stuck driving whichever Shelby Im not driving is still not that bad of a deal! :happy feet:

[SWEDEMAN]

If SA does it, it will happen after the GT350 SC'd cars are almost done because they reach farther into your pocket then the N/A version. So when it comes to profits SA is no dummy, SC cars are first then N/A cars.

 

As for the 70 + hp gain, that was a wish on my part not anything else. I agree cold air and tune is about 20-25 hp max, they'll have to do another trick or two or three to get more hp otherwise it will be Shelby GT all over again.

 

PS: I think could be one of the last big muscle cars of our time, think about that. I mean with 412 HP @ the crank, that is a ton of hp to start out with!

[DubbsFaris]

I think you will be surprised to your first statement Swede, but we will see. I don't exactly know now that Amy isn't the director of the builds, but thats okay, we will all see together how that turns out.

 

As far as comparing this car to a Shelby GT, I just don't see how you can. The HP is completely different, the cars are completely different. Can you get a SGT to the same performance levels we will see with the GT350? Yes, N/A there is no comparison, but the old 4.6 is alot more forgiving to SC boost. So I think the high end of a SGT/SC will match the GT 350SC, but under N/A, we get into two different cars.

 

If we break down the costs apples to apples though,

 

SGT MSRP: 42-44k back when they were new and shiny on the lots, add the SC package and brakes and the car is more like 60k

 

GT350 : My car is around 32K, with 34k in additions including the SC and brakes. This puts the car at about 66k

 

When you consider a 4 year increase in prices and the fact that the GT350 is going to be MUCH rarer, a 6k cost really is a wash. The GT350 is lighter too.

 

I for one cant wait to get the car on the track head to head with a SGT to see just we have here. If you beleive Gary P. and many at Shelby, its not even close in performance translation on a road course. I believe him, I have seen him drive many cars.

 

I did hear that they put the prototype up against the now defunct SR package car and a KR, and the 350 blew them off the track.

[check6]

You know, while we are on famous lines-

 

I am my brother's keeper....

 

But I don't remember a line that I have to give him a GT350....

 

 

 

Oh, it's there Warren, it's there

[Son of GT]

Yea-yea, I've already made the call Enis.

 

Whats that quote from the Ten Commandments? "So it is written, so shall it be done" I think...

 

 

 

Sorry, it was not my intent to offend you or anyone else with my statement; my apologies.

[tpow96]

I think you will be surprised to your first statement Swede, but we will see. I don't exactly know now that Amy isn't the director of the builds, but thats okay, we will all see together how that turns out.

 

As far as comparing this car to a Shelby GT, I just don't see how you can. The HP is completely different, the cars are completely different. Can you get a SGT to the same performance levels we will see with the GT350? Yes, N/A there is no comparison, but the old 4.6 is alot more forgiving to SC boost. So I think the high end of a SGT/SC will match the GT 350SC, but under N/A, we get into two different cars.

 

If we break down the costs apples to apples though,

 

SGT MSRP: 42-44k back when they were new and shiny on the lots, add the SC package and brakes and the car is more like 60k

 

GT350 : My car is around 32K, with 34k in additions including the SC and brakes. This puts the car at about 66k

 

When you consider a 4 year increase in prices and the fact that the GT350 is going to be MUCH rarer, a 6k cost really is a wash. The GT350 is lighter too.

 

I for one cant wait to get the car on the track head to head with a SGT to see just we have here. If you beleive Gary P. and many at Shelby, its not even close in performance translation on a road course. I believe him, I have seen him drive many cars.

 

I did hear that they put the prototype up against the now defunct SR package car and a KR, and the 350 blew them off the track.

 

 

More apples:

 

Guys, their Press Release is the last word on this... they are out of the volume business. If they can create and

market a 30K+ package for 2011+ Mustangs, they will do it. Therefore, the N/A GT350-R Ken suggests makes sense,

because ready to race Mustangs are going in the 70K range.

 

-Tom

[SWEDEMAN]

I think you will be surprised to your first statement Swede, but we will see. I don't exactly know now that Amy isn't the director of the builds, but thats okay, we will all see together how that turns out.

 

As far as comparing this car to a Shelby GT, I just don't see how you can. The HP is completely different, the cars are completely different. Can you get a SGT to the same performance levels we will see with the GT350? Yes, N/A there is no comparison, but the old 4.6 is alot more forgiving to SC boost. So I think the high end of a SGT/SC will match the GT 350SC, but under N/A, we get into two different cars.

 

If we break down the costs apples to apples though,

 

SGT MSRP: 42-44k back when they were new and shiny on the lots, add the SC package and brakes and the car is more like 60k

 

GT350 : My car is around 32K, with 34k in additions including the SC and brakes. This puts the car at about 66k

 

When you consider a 4 year increase in prices and the fact that the GT350 is going to be MUCH rarer, a 6k cost really is a wash. The GT350 is lighter too.

 

I for one cant wait to get the car on the track head to head with a SGT to see just we have here. If you beleive Gary P. and many at Shelby, its not even close in performance translation on a road course. I believe him, I have seen him drive many cars.

 

I did hear that they put the prototype up against the now defunct SR package car and a KR, and the 350 blew them off the track.

 

 

DF - I was really not trying to stack up the Shelby GT with the GT350 and please forgive me if I came off that way. I was trying to say that the packages and offering could be the same. When the SGT came out you could either get is as a stock 319 HP car delivered back to the dealership pretitle. If you chose to have the Paxton SC the car had to be post titled. That was it. So you can see my reasoning that it really could alomost be done the same way....if FORD would let them do it which is extremely doubtful.

So that being said I hope I cleared that part up.

Now for the second part. The N/A version of the GT350 quite possibly could be more than the $7K in price reduction once options are considered and performance stuff removed. So all in all the N/A GT350 could be in the low to mid $50's. If that is the case one would weight the option of a GT500 or a much nicer GT350 as they will be very competitive in pricing.

I hope I made sense here, correct me if I was off base. Finally I am just trying to let SA know that a N/A option in this car is quite possible as the stock HP in the coyote engine @ 412 plus cold air and tune and other goodies could push this engine to , maybe, high 400's or even 500 hp.

[DubbsFaris]

Yeah, we are on the same page with that, and I know a little more about this than I can talk about since there is nothing official. With Amy gone, I think the info I had recieved could change, so I really don't want to stick my neck out on the decisions they make at this point, but I think Im safe to say that SA has heard the requests and working hard to accomodate that. I dont think it is a secret that the automatic version cannot be supercharged anyway, but I dont know of anyone who ordered an automatic. That hasn't been released by SA, but it was in a write up I read online a few weeks back. I think that came out of a Ford rep if Im not mistaken. But I cant find the article now, it was linked in one of the dozen other mustang forums out there somewhere. I think you are closer to the truth than you know. Maybe when Roger gets back, he can shed some light on this issue...I am still waffling on my desire for a SC or not. I am getting my finances set to make a decision on that, but it will depend on the price reduction vs performance risks of the compression rate and of course whether or not it is even an option to have.

[tpow96]

As far as comparing this car to a Shelby GT, I just don't see how you can. The HP is completely different, the cars are completely different. Can you get a SGT to the same performance levels we will see with the GT350? Yes, N/A there is no comparison, but the old 4.6 is alot more forgiving to SC boost. So I think the high end of a SGT/SC will match the GT 350SC, but under N/A, we get into two different cars.

 

 

Guys, is this N/A comparison true? Yes in stock form there is no comparison. But folks in these forums have modified

N/A 4.6 motors (stock shortblock) putting out appx. 400 rwhp. Am I missing something here?

 

-Tom

[kahmann]

Guys, is this N/A comparison true? Yes in stock form there is no comparison. But folks in these forums have modified

N/A 4.6 motors (stock shortblock) putting out appx. 400 rwhp. Am I missing something here?

 

-Tom

 

If the comparison is NA 3V vs NA 4V 5.0, then yes I'd say it's true.

The new 5.0 has a higher compression ratio than the 3V and starts out with 100+ HP from Ford. However, with the factory headers, mono-blade throttle body, twin cams, etc, I suppose the argument could be made that there isn't a ton of NA power left on the table, without diving into the heads or further.

 

As for NA 3V's putting down 400+ rwhp, I have seen it only a couple of times, and nowhere on this forum.

I made just a hair over 350 rwhp NA, before finally strapping on the Paxton. At that point, I had every imaginable bolt on part installed. To make anymore power beyond that without a blower or NOS, I would have had to do some pretty extensive work (heads, stroke, bore, etc).

So in my opinion, the Coyote ought to be a much better NA platform than the 3V.

[sportscars]

I think a big part of it depends on what you want to do with the car. Look at the videos of Colin and his 300HP mustang EATING some serious $ cars on the track. The GT350 will have 100+ HP and be 100lbs lighter!

 

I can only imagine how fun this car will be on the track. I have driven GT500's, SGT's and Terlingua's on the track and the difference in those three is amazing. The SGT is so much easier to turn than the GT500 and the Terlingua so much easier than the SGT!

 

This car will have power AND handling. Unless you are running top end or the Nurburgring or something else with mile long straights I dont imagine you will need much more power than you could easily get out of this car with a tune, intake, exhaust, etc.

 

Just my $.02

[kahmann]

^Keep in mind that Colin's car is equipped with a full GR40ST front/rear suspension and Hoosier R1's. It also weighs quite a bit less than a stock Mustang GT.

It doesn't hurt that Colin used to drive stunt cars for a living either. Regardless, point well taken on the 2011!