bigger rear tires

[CobraCV]

I'm not mistaken. Check www.us.pirelli.com

I already have the tires in my warehouse.

[breoland]

i have the same setup with the R888. widen to 11.75 inches.... that will give you the option to go with 335's in the future if you so desire. if your sure you will not go with 335's in the future, then you can widen to 11.5" (will give you a bit more protective overhang). ask weldcraft to grind down and polish out the weld (i did not have this done but apparently they will do this now according to some members here?). you will have to remove dust boot from the shock- don't sweat it... it is a flimsy peice of plastic with little use anyway. will take you 5 minutes with a box cutter to get them off. you will also have to trim bumpstop bracket with a flat grinder if you go with this combo. it is well worth it. you effectively add probably about 80-100 HP delivered to the ground. if someone ever offers me a million dollars for my supersnake i can always take a bumpstop brackt from any old V6 mustang in the junkyard and repair to factory fresh. good luck.

 

Merry Christmas everybody! and Happy New Year!

 

Ron

 

 

Thanks Ron,

the one thing I dont understand, if I do go with 11.5 wider...why would it need to be trimmed? There is a guy on svtp that has the same setup on an 11in wheel with the correct offset and did not have to do any trim work. SO even with alcoa pussed so close to the fender lip and added to the inside, whe does it need to be trimed?

is it because its on an 11in wheel and the tire bulge is equal on both sides with no rubbing?

the wheel the guy is running are from true fordge with a 315/30/20

[knownukes]

i have the same setup with the R888. widen to 11.75 inches.... that will give you the option to go with 335's in the future if you so desire. if your sure you will not go with 335's in the future, then you can widen to 11.5" (will give you a bit more protective overhang). ask weldcraft to grind down and polish out the weld (i did not have this done but apparently they will do this now according to some members here?). you will have to remove dust boot from the shock- don't sweat it... it is a flimsy peice of plastic with little use anyway. will take you 5 minutes with a box cutter to get them off. you will also have to trim bumpstop bracket with a flat grinder if you go with this combo. it is well worth it. you effectively add probably about 80-100 HP delivered to the ground. if someone ever offers me a million dollars for my supersnake i can always take a bumpstop brackt from any old V6 mustang in the junkyard and repair to factory fresh. good luck.

 

Merry Christmas everybody! and Happy New Year!

 

Ron

 

Ron, I went with 11.75 also and had the welds polished out. It makes a huge difference vs not having them polished out. But, they are still not as nice on the inside as stock. The do not have the same Durabrite finish on the inside.

 

This is a must do mod for our cars! It truly transforms the car. My 305's are worn out now and it is time to make the 315/335 decision.

 

BJ

[enormous]

I'm not mistaken. Check www.us.pirelli.com

I already have the tires in my warehouse.

 

I checked that site high and low and could not find the PZero in 325/30/20

Only found a 335/30/20 in PZero.

Can you verify??

[SVTpower]

I checked that site high and low and could not find the PZero in 325/30/20

Only found a 335/30/20 in PZero.

Can you verify??

 

 

 

yup......me too...........in a 19" maybe. Please post the link. I just searched again and nothing......in a 19 yes, not 20. Sorry but I wish you were correct as mine are damn expensive and a cheaper replacement would have been nice.

[CobraCV]

I am sorry guys, my brains have been scrambled since the murder of my best friend early Thursday morning. I'm not sure I know my own name anymore. I wrote 325 but meant 315 ...forgive my lack of focus.

 

I used the engineering staff at HRE to determine sidewall angle and over fit without modification. It was determined that load and "G" force made a safer fit using the 315. In addition after talking with the staff at Michellin it didn't appear that they were going to have a tire that gave the correct engineering for both front and rear anytime soon. I drive my car very fast and use it under serious stress a lot. You guys that are simply going to car shows will be fine trying Robert M's idea

 

The math says a 315 is the proper fit on an 11.5 wheel. extending out to 11.75 does not mathamatically fit a 325 or 335 but if you feel like you want it and you are not stressing the load, you will be in good shape.

 

Again I apologize for my lack of focus and the confusion I may have caused.

[enormous]

Sorry about the loss of your friend, very tragic.

[Robert M]

I am sorry guys, my brains have been scrambled since the murder of my best friend early Thursday morning. I'm not sure I know my own name anymore. I wrote 325 but meant 315 ...forgive my lack of focus.

 

I used the engineering staff at HRE to determine sidewall angle and over fit without modification. It was determined that load and "G" force made a safer fit using the 315. In addition after talking with the staff at Michellin it didn't appear that they were going to have a tire that gave the correct engineering for both front and rear anytime soon. I drive my car very fast and use it under serious stress a lot. You guys that are simply going to car shows will be fine trying Robert M's idea

 

The math says a 315 is the proper fit on an 11.5 wheel. extending out to 11.75 does not mathamatically fit a 325 or 335 but if you feel like you want it and you are not stressing the load, you will be in good shape.

 

Again I apologize for my lack of focus and the confusion I may have caused.

 

 

First of all, I am sorry to hear about the loss of your friend..............

 

 

I am definitely interested in hearing more. My tire man (who specializes in performance applications) tells me that the 275/35 is a perfect fit for the 9" rim, yes a wider tire, or more narrow tire "can" be installed as is the case with the 255 that was originally installed on our cars. Any wider rim would make the tire not wide enough for the rim in the 275/35 set up, any narrower of a tire would be on the smaller side for the rim....................He states that the tread itself and the rim bead itself should be very close to equal for a perfect fit. The portion of the tread that he is epcifically talking about is where it breaks over the side, at that corner. His statement to me was that there is a perfect tire to rim fit, and anything else is plus or minus. "Plus" being fat on the rim an "minus" being a sidewall that is bent inward at the tread corner in relation to the rim bead.

 

 

The 335/30 (Viper size except in 20") on a 12" is going to have this same tread to bead. The PS 2's have been a very good performance tire for years, so now this set up is for "show and no go"??? or are we not on the same discussion page?

 

If we are talking about the use of the 20" Super Snake wheels as being more show than go, that is one thing, but if we are all talking about the 20" Super Snake look on our Super Snake's then we are all in the same discussion.

 

I need to hear more..................

 

R

[CobraCV]

With the help of HRE, Pirelli and Toyo we did some testing. Using PZero's and R888's. We were unable to get a matching set of R888's for the 20" nor did Michellin have anything to offer to meet the criteria for testing. We used the R888's on 18" wheels only

 

The criteria was

 

No suspension or body roll rubbing or modification to the car to prevent the rubbing. Also included in the criteria is that the tire manufacture had to have a matching engineered set of tires.

 

Our first test was on a set of 20" HRE wheels with the exact fit as the Alcoa's. Of course that limited the width of the tires as you are already aware. Going out as far as 305's on the 20X10 it had far too much sidewall roll. At 295 it was tight and did a great job. At 11" we went out to a 315 and the roll came back ...not real bad but it was clearly there. Roll is bad on a Mustang because it will allow the butt end to come out from under you at extreme cornering speeds, Subsequently you use your tow hook to get your car out of the kitty litter ...not good! Using the 20X12 wheels we tried the 335's and found the only issue was inner and outer tire rubbing. This combination looks awesome and under less stressful conditions ...like typical street racer and slower track speeds without heavy G turns this combination is fine. As soon as you use the body weight to control the car using this combination like I do when I track drive, it became an issue with the inner and outer wheel positioning and rubbed a lot, making unsafe conditions. So modification to the suspension and outer wheel well lip is required to make the car safe and prevent tire and car damage.

 

There was no 325 tire available to try and we found that 11.5 always stayed withing the wheel well space perfectly with enough clearence to always be safe. At that point we loaded up the 315 on the 11.5 wheel and found that rubber contact was so close to the the 335 it was more a look difference than a performance difference, In addition I found that I could track the car like a wildman without any issues and the Pirelli's gripped surprisingly well. Nearly as good as my R888's on my 18" HRE R40 wheels.

 

Because of the lack of rubber size choices in 20" sizes I sincerely understand the dilemma for those of you that want the fat boy look, traction and overall performace for dual purpose wheels and tires. I personally gave up the chase for now and hopefully there will be a tire company that makes the ideal combo for the 20" wheel users on the track with the ability to have the look too. Good for you R, I love the look for sure,

 

I see by the picture that if you search and search you can find the Michellins and widen your wheels out as shown in that picture, I think it looks great. I also believe that it is a good combination for you. Never take what I say as absolute gospel but as researched infomation. I want all of you guys alive and well to enjoy your cars and familes. I don't like losing friends. The general engineering consensus from racing wheel companies and tire manufactures is contrary to what you have done and want to do for the moment using the criteria I used to make my choices. Each of us has our own personal driving styles, criteria and needs. So please be safe, use your head and have all the fun you can. WE only have one life to live.

 

As for your tire guy and the stock wheels, Robert, I don't really understand why you are going the direction he has suggested but I totally disagree if I understood you correctly. Of course it is always possible I am not understanding what you are doing. I used a set of 275 35 18's and 305 35 18's on my stock SVT wheels all Toyo R888's and it sucked,

 

Thx Robert for your kind words about my dear friend Joe Gosinski, he is a huge loss to the Mustang community and I won't ever forget what he's been to me as my friend.

[breoland]

So you are saying with the alcoa wheel and a set of 315/30/20, you can use this set up with a widen alcoa wheel of 11.5 and no other mods needed, like triming the bumpstop bracket or cuting the dust cover on the rear shock?

[CobraCV]

Yes but with the caviot that it is a lilttle bit tire & suspension dependant. Some tires sit on a wheel diferently but using almost any 315 30 20 on the Alcoa's at 11.5 you should have no issues at all. If you've done any suspension mods you could have a problem but if you are using Eibach, Ford Racing or KW, you will have no issues there either

[BoneDoc]

CobraCV i m very sorry about the loss of your friend. I did not know Joe but his death is tragic and the timing could not have been worse. there is no need to apologize. I did see the dunlop in that size but the price is rediculous! so i stayed with the R888's. all things being even i would have gone with 325 dunlops.

 

Breoland I don't know about 11.5" but with the 11.75" widened alcoas the rim (not the tire) would hit the bumpstop bracket when the suspension was unloaded. for example if the car was on a lift or if i was hitting a depression in the road at an angle i would get hard rub. my panhard was centered dead-on. when i looked at the bumpstup bracket it appeared that the rub was the rim on the bracket. removed the bracket and no problems. this is an unsusual loading condition and maybe you an get away with leaving the bumpstop bracket but again it is not a specialized part and can be replaced easily if the need arises so i whacked it out. the gain in traction was worth the loss of the bumpstop bracket for me.

 

see pics below. the first is the dust boot rubbing. its a cheap peice of plastic and i lost no sleep taking it off.

 

the other three pics show where i got the rub... navigating a turn in my neighborhood with a depression (to channel rainwater) the extended side would rub (the unloaded wheel). I hope this helps. maybe 11.5 won't do this but my 11.75 did.

 

[dbackg]

How fast were you navigating that turn? Those are amazing "still shots" Bonedoc.

 

Another note:

 

Considering the Toyo R888 315x30x20, what would be a good match for the stock SS fronts 20x9's?

 

Also, now considering changing out my FRPP FR3 struts & shocks.

 

Considering: Tokico D-Spec Struts & Shocks.

 

I am thinking I just don't like the way my girl bounces down the road.

 

Do you think I could keep the FRPP FR3 springs? The Tokico D-Spec Suspension package "kit" includes new spring and lowers the SS an additional .25" = total 1.5" lower vs the FR3 1.25" lower.

[BoneDoc]

How fast were you navigating that turn? Those are amazing "still shots" Bonedoc.

 

Another note:

 

Considering the Toyo R888 315x30x20, what would be a good match for the stock SS fronts 20x9's?

 

Also, now considering changing out my FRPP FR3 struts & shocks.

 

Considering: Tokico D-Spec Struts & Shocks.

 

I am thinking I just don't like the way my girl bounces down the road.

 

Do you think I could keep the FRPP FR3 springs? The Tokico D-Spec Suspension package "kit" includes new spring and lowers the SS an additional .25" = total 1.5" lower vs the FR3 1.25" lower.

 

 

indeed! i tend to creep around my neighborhood because there are lots of children. when i was making the turn i heard the rub and stopped immediately to get a look. I was surprised how much compression on the one side and extension on the other side that there was! and this is not a deep depression... just a standard water channel like i'm sure may of you have in your neighborhoods.

 

 

Ron

[Robert M]

With the help of HRE, Pirelli and Toyo we did some testing. Using PZero's and R888's. We were unable to get a matching set of R888's for the 20" nor did Michellin have anything to offer to meet the criteria for testing. We used the R888's on 18" wheels only

 

The criteria was

 

No suspension or body roll rubbing or modification to the car to prevent the rubbing. Also included in the criteria is that the tire manufacture had to have a matching engineered set of tires.

 

Our first test was on a set of 20" HRE wheels with the exact fit as the Alcoa's. Of course that limited the width of the tires as you are already aware. Going out as far as 305's on the 20X10 it had far too much sidewall roll. At 295 it was tight and did a great job. At 11" we went out to a 315 and the roll came back ...not real bad but it was clearly there. Roll is bad on a Mustang because it will allow the butt end to come out from under you at extreme cornering speeds, Subsequently you use your tow hook to get your car out of the kitty litter ...not good! Using the 20X12 wheels we tried the 335's and found the only issue was inner and outer tire rubbing. This combination looks awesome and under less stressful conditions ...like typical street racer and slower track speeds without heavy G turns this combination is fine. As soon as you use the body weight to control the car using this combination like I do when I track drive, it became an issue with the inner and outer wheel positioning and rubbed a lot, making unsafe conditions. So modification to the suspension and outer wheel well lip is required to make the car safe and prevent tire and car damage.

 

There was no 325 tire available to try and we found that 11.5 always stayed withing the wheel well space perfectly with enough clearence to always be safe. At that point we loaded up the 315 on the 11.5 wheel and found that rubber contact was so close to the the 335 it was more a look difference than a performance difference, In addition I found that I could track the car like a wildman without any issues and the Pirelli's gripped surprisingly well. Nearly as good as my R888's on my 18" HRE R40 wheels.

 

Because of the lack of rubber size choices in 20" sizes I sincerely understand the dilemma for those of you that want the fat boy look, traction and overall performace for dual purpose wheels and tires. I personally gave up the chase for now and hopefully there will be a tire company that makes the ideal combo for the 20" wheel users on the track with the ability to have the look too. Good for you R, I love the look for sure,

 

I see by the picture that if you search and search you can find the Michellins and widen your wheels out as shown in that picture, I think it looks great. I also believe that it is a good combination for you. Never take what I say as absolute gospel but as researched infomation. I want all of you guys alive and well to enjoy your cars and familes. I don't like losing friends. The general engineering consensus from racing wheel companies and tire manufactures is contrary to what you have done and want to do for the moment using the criteria I used to make my choices. Each of us has our own personal driving styles, criteria and needs. So please be safe, use your head and have all the fun you can. WE only have one life to live.

 

As for your tire guy and the stock wheels, Robert, I don't really understand why you are going the direction he has suggested but I totally disagree if I understood you correctly. Of course it is always possible I am not understanding what you are doing. I used a set of 275 35 18's and 305 35 18's on my stock SVT wheels all Toyo R888's and it sucked,

 

Thx Robert for your kind words about my dear friend Joe Gosinski, he is a huge loss to the Mustang community and I won't ever forget what he's been to me as my friend.

 

 

That is a good explaination of what you have tested and found to work in different sizes and widths. Thanks.

 

Yes, I am interested in keeping the stock/original Super Snake look, 20" Alcoa's and all. The distance from the brake rotor mounting point outward is set in stone and only a side wall bulge more or less will be the difference. It is only to the inside that the real difference can be realized. My goal was to first of all keep the "Super Snake Alcoa look" <<<Top priority....... and then upgrade the tire and wheel combo front and rear. When I first started this, the rear was my only goal, get more traction!! Once I started looking at the total tire wheel package, I realized that there "could" be a little more added to the front without getting too big. I also realized that too wide on the rear would quickly look "too fat" and there is no hiding that look on the rear.

 

I wanted a tire upgrade on the front because if noting else, just looking at the 255/35's and the rim guard feature quickly shows that the rim guard is not fitting/protecting the rim properly. I tried a 275/35 and it fit perfectly, while still keeping the flatter (slight bulge) I was looking for. The only way to match that flatter side wall look on the rear was a 12" Alcoa, as Lee had done and found now after the fact to be acceptable without a spacer. That 12" Alcoa and the 335/30 will give the match to the front 275/35 on the 9". A 11.75" with the 335/30 was going to be very close, but the 12" appeared to be a match and once Lee and I discussed the 11.75" vs. 12" further, and I in most cases will not be driving into 45 degree inclines, 12" was the choice.

 

My use will only be street sprints, car shows and the occassional thrust into a turn or two. For my use, this tire wheel combo should far exceed my needs and/or wants for straight line or corner carving.

 

I also agree that if I were to use my car in a more competitive way, this tire wheel combo would have to be replaced with tires and wheels that give a little more clearance and also have more tire options for rim sizes.

 

R

[Lee N.]

So you are saying with the alcoa wheel and a set of 315/30/20, you can use this set up with a widen alcoa wheel of 11.5 and no other mods needed, like triming the bumpstop bracket or cuting the dust cover on the rear shock?

 

I do not think there is much of a chance of that clearing. The bumpstop braket sticks out 1 3/8" from the frame. I know for a fact an 11" widened SVT wheel will not clear. Even with the offset of the Alcoa's I think your going to rub. Crawl under your car with a tape measure and measure it. If you want a 315 I think you will need to trim that bracket!

[Lee N.]

That is a good explaination of what you have tested and found to work in different sizes and widths. Thanks.

 

Yes, I am interested in keeping the stock/original Super Snake look, 20" Alcoa's and all. The distance from the brake rotor mounting point outward is set in stone and only a side wall bulge more or less will be the difference. It is only to the inside that the real difference can be realized. My goal was to first of all keep the "Super Snake Alcoa look" <<<Top priority....... and then upgrade the tire and wheel combo front and rear. When I first started this, the rear was my only goal, get more traction!! Once I started looking at the total tire wheel package, I realized that there "could" be a little more added to the front without getting too big. I also realized that too wide on the rear would quickly look "too fat" and there is no hiding that look on the rear.

 

I wanted a tire upgrade on the front because if noting else, just looking at the 255/35's and the rim guard feature quickly shows that the rim guard is not fitting/protecting the rim properly. I tried a 275/35 and it fit perfectly, while still keeping the flatter (slight bulge) I was looking for. The only way to match that flatter side wall look on the rear was a 12" Alcoa, as Lee had done and found now after the fact to be acceptable without a spacer. That 12" Alcoa and the 335/30 will give the match to the front 275/35 on the 9". A 11.75" with the 335/30 was going to be very close, but the 12" appeared to be a match and once Lee and I discussed the 11.75" vs. 12" further, and I in most cases will not be driving into 45 degree inclines, 12" was the choice.

 

My use will only be street sprints, car shows and the occassional thrust into a turn or two. For my use, this tire wheel combo should far exceed my needs and/or wants for straight line or corner carving.

 

I also agree that if I were to use my car in a more competitive way, this tire wheel combo would have to be replaced with tires and wheels that give a little more clearance and also have more tire options for rim sizes.

 

R

 

I agree 100%, If I were to take my car to the track I would run a different combo. Some road race 295 slicks on a set of SVT rims would be a nice set-up. I drive my car hard on the street and have had no issues with my 12's on 335's, but "hard on the street" and a race track situation are worlds apart. Personally I would not run a stock set of SS wheels on the track either.

[Robert M]

I do not think there is much of a chance of that clearing. The bumpstop braket sticks out 1 3/8" from the frame. I know for a fact an 11" widened SVT wheel will not clear. Even with the offset of the Alcoa's I think your going to rub. Crawl under your car with a tape measure and measure it. If you want a 315 I think you will need to trim that bracket!

 

 

 

And if this is true^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^, my thoughts were, why not go out to 335? The overall diameter difference between the original 275/35 P Zero and the 315 vs. 335 is minimal, why not go 335 "if" mods are going to have to be done either way. One other thought I had............Since the 335 is slightly taller that the 275/35, and the 315 is slightly shorter than the 275/35 and we are all interested in added traction....................................which is most likely to aid in this traction (without even discussion width), a taller tire? or a shorter tire? as compared to what traction is available with the 275/35 diameter.

 

R

[Lee N.]

And if this is true^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^, my thoughts were, why not go out to 335? The overall diameter difference between the original 275/35 P Zero and the 315 vs. 335 is minimal, why not go 335 "if" mods are going to have to be done either way. One other thought I had............Since the 335 is slightly taller that the 275/35, and the 315 is slightly shorter than the 275/35 and we are all interested in added traction....................................which is most likely to aid in this traction (without even discussion width), a taller tire? or a shorter tire? as compared to what traction is available with the 275/35 diameter.

 

R

 

Amen!

[breoland]

And if this is true^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^, my thoughts were, why not go out to 335? The overall diameter difference between the original 275/35 P Zero and the 315 vs. 335 is minimal, why not go 335 "if" mods are going to have to be done either way. One other thought I had............Since the 335 is slightly taller that the 275/35, and the 315 is slightly shorter than the 275/35 and we are all interested in added traction....................................which is most likely to aid in this traction (without even discussion width), a taller tire? or a shorter tire? as compared to what traction is available with the 275/35 diameter.

 

R

 

 

 

I think there are some people out there running an 11in wheel with a 315 with no issues, now running a 315 on an 11.5in wheel with no mods would be ideal. no one here has tried it, all we have is bone doc running an 11.75 with a 315 and having to make the cut.

 

I understand that the cut is minimal, but im trying to find a way to keep it and not have to do it along with the dust cover. Right now im runing the toyo 295/30 on a 10in will with no issues, real close to the fender lip on one side but i think its a matter of adjustment

 

Last thing too, I think some guys here are affraid of paying 400+ a tire with a 335 and the availability of them

[Robert M]

I think there are some people out there running an 11in wheel with a 315 with no issues, now running a 315 on an 11.5in wheel with no mods would be ideal. no one here has tried it, all we have is bone doc running an 11.75 with a 315 and having to make the cut.

 

I understand that the cut is minimal, but im trying to find a way to keep it and not have to do it along with the dust cover. Right now im runing the toyo 295/30 on a 10in will with no issues, real close to the fender lip on one side but i think its a matter of adjustment

 

Last thing too, I think some guys here are affraid of paying 400+ a tire with a 335 and the availability of them

 

 

I am not sure about my following statement, but I thought that the dust boot was the first thing to be cut/modded. When I say this, I mean I thought that the tire contact with the dust boot would come before the contact issues with the bracket. For some reason I was under the impression that the main issue with the bracket happened when the rear end was extended on one side and compressed on the other, but the shock boot was an issue when installing the wheel tire assy., it would contact during installation.

 

I would like to keep my dust cover (protection) intact.......I am not real excited about sand and grit laying around the shaft and seal area of each rear shock.<<This seams like a failure waiting to happen. I am still thinking about protection options that allow for tire clearance on my rear shocks.

 

I see some of the GT500 Forum members mentioning 345's on the rear, what is that all about?

 

R

[Lee N.]

I think there are some people out there running an 11in wheel with a 315 with no issues, now running a 315 on an 11.5in wheel with no mods would be ideal. no one here has tried it, all we have is bone doc running an 11.75 with a 315 and having to make the cut.

 

I understand that the cut is minimal, but im trying to find a way to keep it and not have to do it along with the dust cover. Right now im runing the toyo 295/30 on a 10in will with no issues, real close to the fender lip on one side but i think its a matter of adjustment

 

Last thing too, I think some guys here are affraid of paying 400+ a tire with a 335 and the availability of them

 

 

My wheel is a 12" and it sits about 1/2" from the framerail. If yours is 11.5" of coarse it will sit 1" from the framerial. The bracket sticks out 1 3/8 from the framerial which puts your rim right into the bracket. Means your wheel lip would be about 1/8 from the bracket. When the wheel articulates it "might" roll around the bracket, but when your axle moves vertically I think you will be too close for comfort (especially considering tire buldge). Just measure the distance from your inner tire lip to the outside of the bracket to make sure. I will measure at ride height, and full compression (with it articulated).

[Lee N.]

I am not sure about my following statement, but I thought that the dust boot was the first thing to be cut/modded. When I say this, I mean I thought that the tire contact with the dust boot would come before the contact issues with the bracket. For some reason I was under the impression that the main issue with the bracket happened when the rear end was extended on one side and compressed on the other, but the shock boot was an issue when installing the wheel tire assy., it would contact during installation.

 

I would like to keep my dust cover (protection) intact.......I am not real excited about sand and grit laying around the shaft and seal area of each rear shock.<<This seams like a failure waiting to happen. I am still thinking about protection options that allow for tire clearance on my rear shocks.

 

I see some of the GT500 Forum members mentioning 345's on the rear, what is that all about?

 

R

 

 

The 345's the guys are running on the GT500 forum are normally 18" rims which make the tires much shorter. A 345 /35/18 is less than 27" tall. With a short tire its much easier to make everything clear. We are running tall tires on our 20's to keep the look we want, but the make everything rub! As far as the dust boots go, they are a joke. You will never see a dust boot on a desert racing truck and they see 1000% more dirt than we do.

[Robert M]

The 345's the guys are running on the GT500 forum are normally 18" rims which make the tires much shorter. A 345 /35/18 is less than 27" tall. With a short tire its much easier to make everything clear. We are running tall tires on our 20's to keep the look we want, but the make everything rub! As far as the dust boots go, they are a joke. You will never see a dust boot on a desert racing truck and they see 1000% more dirt than we do.

 

 

 

I agree that a dust boot may not be important for the desert truck, and they have a mass of replacements ready, as provided by sponsors. There is really not any concern except to get through that race, not many, many miles and years of use. I am talking about the everyday "stuff" that is kicked up by the tires, sand dirt etc. This dirt and sand will lay right at the contact point of the shaft/piston that moves up and down, and the seal that keeps fluid in, and dirt "stuff" out. That does not seem like a wise place for dirt, sand or any other foreign "stuff" to lay. I would also have to examine the Race truck shock placement and position. In our case, the shock is down and the shaft is up, if it were the other way around, there would be no place for "stuff" to lay.

 

^^^^^^^^This may not be an issue at all, but it certainly could be. There is a reason for the placement of a dust boot originally. The manufacturer does not want dust or "stuff" to get around that seal area.

 

 

These are just my observations, maybe I am completely wrong.

 

 

One thing I do remember from 20-30 plus years ago when I sold auto parts, the off-road shock kits sold by Monroe had a full accordian type dust boot that was sealed at both ends. At least back then, and I would also suspect now, they were/are not interested in dust and/or debris getting into the moving areas of their shocks or struts.

 

My question is, can the outer portion of the dust boot closest to the moving tire be removed? and the area that does not come in contact with the tire be left in place?,

 

 

R

[BoneDoc]

I agree that a dust boot may not be important for the desert truck, and they have a mass of replacements ready, as provided by sponsors. There is really not any concern except to get through that race, not many, many miles and years of use. I am talking about the everyday "stuff" that is kicked up by the tires, sand dirt etc. This dirt and sand will lay right at the contact point of the shaft/piston that moves up and down, and the seal that keeps fluid in, and dirt "stuff" out. That does not seem like a wise place for dirt, sand or any other foreign "stuff" to lay. I would also have to examine the Race truck shock placement and position. In our case, the shock is down and the shaft is up, if it were the other way around, there would be no place for "stuff" to lay.

 

^^^^^^^^This may not be an issue at all, but it certainly could be. There is a reason for the placement of a dust boot originally. The manufacturer does not want dust or "stuff" to get around that seal area.

 

 

These are just my observations, maybe I am completely wrong.

 

 

One thing I do remember from 20-30 plus years ago when I sold auto parts, the off-road shock kits sold by Monroe had a full accordian type dust boot that was sealed at both ends. At least back then, and I would also suspect now, they were/are not interested in dust and/or debris getting into the moving areas of their shocks or struts.

 

My question is, can the outer portion of the dust boot closest to the moving tire be removed? and the area that does not come in contact with the tire be left in place?,

 

 

R

 

 

you mean like this? yes i tried but the boot would eventually rotate and contact the tire again.

 

Robert i thought the same as you did initially. But i put maybe 3k miles on my car annually, do not drive on dirt roads and keep the car cleaner than the OR's i operate in! i also change the wheels whenever i go to the dragstrip (maybe once or twice a month) so i wipe the shock down when i change the wheel. The shocks are not terribly expensive so if they wear out 6 months earlier because of dust i am ok with that. Again the traction I gained made it all worth while. its a tradeoff.

 

[Robert M]

you mean like this? yes i tried but the boot would eventually rotate and contact the tire again.

 

Robert i thought the same as you did initially. But i put maybe 3k miles on my car annually, do not drive on dirt roads and keep the car cleaner than the OR's i operate in! i also change the wheels whenever i go to the dragstrip (maybe once or twice a month) so i wipe the shock down when i change the wheel. The shocks are not terribly expensive so if they wear out 6 months earlier because of dust i am ok with that. Again the traction I gained made it all worth while. its a tradeoff.

 

 

 

 

Yes, that is it, and what you have shown in that picture is what I "was" going to attempt, but I was wondering if it would rotate and if there were a way to fasten the upper portion of the boot to keep it from rotating. I was also wondering how much of your cut out area is actual shock travel area, fully compressed and fully extended. That area on the top of the shock itself, right the piston comes out.............If I remember correctly the seal is inset in that area and there is a.............sort of cupped depression in that area. What a Great place for sand, dirt, and even metallic brake dust to gather. I am sure that is why the manufacturer placed a boot there in the beginning, it serves a purpose. I am like you, I put very few miles on my car per year, and an occassional blow gun in that area may be wise for anyone who is removing the protection of this area, including myself.

 

We all were interested in what (if any) issues there might be with removing the bump stop/lift brackets, and now we have also discussed the possible issue with removing the protective dust shield from the rear shocks.

 

I agree that shocks are not expensive, but it would be nice to have my cake and eat it too, modify the dust boot and still keep the rear shock seal area protected.

 

I just called Alicia at Weldcraft and paid for my 12's.......$712.56 including shipping. They will ship on Thurs. and I should have them by mid next week. Then I will get the 335/30 PS2's mounted and we will see how they compare in profile to the already mounted 275/35's on the front 9's.

 

 

R

[Lee N.]

I agree that a dust boot may not be important for the desert truck, and they have a mass of replacements ready, as provided by sponsors. There is really not any concern except to get through that race, not many, many miles and years of use.

^^^^^^^^This may not be an issue at all, but it certainly could be. There is a reason for the placement of a dust boot originally. The manufacturer does not want dust or "stuff" to get around that seal area.

 

 

These are just my observations, maybe I am completely wrong.

 

 

One thing I do remember from 20-30 plus years ago when I sold auto parts, the off-road shock kits sold by Monroe had a full accordian type dust boot that was sealed at both ends. At least back then, and I would also suspect now, they were/are not interested in dust and/or debris getting into the moving areas of their shocks or struts.

 

My question is, can the outer portion of the dust boot closest to the moving tire be removed? and the area that does not come in contact with the tire be left in place?,

 

 

R

 

I think you are overthinking the dust boot thing. The seals inside gas shocks are built to handle gas pressures sometimes over several thousand pounds. Also to keep fluid in under extreme pressures when the shock is dampening the entire movement of the car. There is a dust wiper on the top of the shock body around the shaft to keep the dirt, mud and water off the seal itself. Everytime your shock compresses this wiper cleans the shaft of the shock.

 

I build off-road race truck's and have competed for years. I have never had a shock seal fail because of dirt on the shaft (much less brake dust). I am still a little stunned you think they do not run a dust boot's on a a desert race shock because durability is NOT an issue in that environment. Those shocks see more abuse in 10 minutes than a car shock sees in its life. If something as simple as a $20 shock boot will up reliability on a $3500 desert shock then trust me they would come with one.

 

If you buy a shock that has a "rubber bootie" its not a good shock. Also NO one recommends running them. They trap water and dirt inside as well as heat. They are meant for the teenagers to show off the color coordinated style! In the offroad world dust boots are a joke.

 

You will not see dust boots in a performance car application either. Look up some high dollar performace suspensions sytems for your car. The Eibach suspension for the Super Snake does not have them. Griggs does not, nor does any other upgraded system have cheap plastic shock covers (none have covers at all). Not trying to beat you up here, just ease your mind that your shocks are not going to fail in the first weekl if you take the dust cover off. Your 335's will not fit with those covers.

[Robert M]

I think you are overthinking the dust boot thing. The seals inside gas shocks are built to handle gas pressures sometimes over several thousand pounds. Also to keep fluid in under extreme pressures when the shock is dampening the entire movement of the car. There is a dust wiper on the top of the shock body around the shaft to keep the dirt, mud and water off the seal itself. Everytime your shock compresses this wiper cleans the shaft of the shock.

 

I build off-road race truck's and have competed for years. I have never had a shock seal fail because of dirt on the shaft (much less brake dust). I am still a little stunned you think they do not run a dust boot's on a a desert race shock because durability is NOT an issue in that environment. Those shocks see more abuse in 10 minutes than a car shock sees in its life. If something as simple as a $20 shock boot will up reliability on a $3500 desert shock then trust me they would come with one.

 

If you buy a shock that has a "rubber bootie" its not a good shock. Also NO one recommends running them. They trap water and dirt inside as well as heat. They are meant for the teenagers to show off the color coordinated style! In the offroad world dust boots are a joke.

 

You will not see dust boots in a performance car application either. Look up some high dollar performace suspensions sytems for your car. The Eibach suspension for the Super Snake does not have them. Griggs does not, nor does any other upgraded system have cheap plastic shock covers (none have covers at all). Not trying to beat you up here, just ease your mind that your shocks are not going to fail in the first weekl if you take the dust cover off. Your 335's will not fit with those covers.

 

 

 

Not worried about leaks anytime soon for sure, just adding observations. I know that if manufacturers can save a buck they will. If Eibach or FRPP did not feel these boots were needed on this specific shock, they would have been deleted long ago, it is part of saving $$$ in the manufacturing world. They felt it was needed and we can't use it for our wider tire/wheel mod, simple as that. So the original question is/was.................Why did Eibach and the manufacturer of the FRPP shocks (design to Ford Racing specifications) install them if they do nothing and are just an extra cost for them to design and install? <<<This does not fall in line with current corporate mentality, where .50 cents x 10,000 is a huge deal. They don't look very colorful for bling, but they seem to have a purpose, what is that purpose? Why would they be shielding dust from this area? where the piston comes out of the shock?

 

Yes, once I begin my install (because of your pioneering in this effort Lee), I know that I will have to heavily modify or completely remove this boot. As with the multiple discussions about the bumpstop/lift bracket and its removal and the "what was its purpose" questions, this boot is another area that will require modification and no one has asked "what is its purpose"? Why is it there as installed by its manufacturer?

 

There is one other thought that may relate to what you are discribing in the race truck world or any other off-road application vs. the street/warranty world. Correct me if I am wrong, but most off-road parts carry little to no warranty unless specific craftsmanship or workmanship can be pinpointed as the fault, right? This is not the case with a part like is offered through FRPP, don't they offer a warranty beyond the purchase? This fact alone may be why these shocks have dust boots. Just a thought......

 

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

 

I just called Eibach tech support to bypass the guessing as to why the dust boot is installed and get straight to that facts from the manufacturers point of view, but they are closed for the holidays, good for them! I will call next week to find out why they installed a plastic dust boot on top of my Super Snake rear shock, and what the purpose of that boot is. <<This way we all know the facts from the people who built the shock. I will also ask why some applications do not have boots, so we will also know those facts. It is always nice to be informed from the people who engineer, design and build the part that is being discsussed, Eibach in my case, but I'll bet that FRPP tech would state the same facts. We may find out that it really does not serve much of a purpose at all (as Lee has mentioned), and that is fine also. It may just be a manuf. CYA for the warranty/street application, and nothing more than that.

 

 

R

[breoland]

Hey guys, I totally understand that if you are going to go with an 11.5 and have to trim might as well go with the 11.75 and get the 335 and go all the way, Iam trying to figure out a way to get a litt,e more meat and not have to do the extra work. I understand that the metal is really nothing and the dust boot cover is no biggie, and the fact that it cost the same to do 11.0 to 12.0, but let say we did 11.25? how would that come into play? waying out options for the other guys that really dont want to pay 400 plus for rear tires and have to cut anything or worry about the longevity of an exposed shock

 

i am only looking for the most amount of tire with an alcoa wheel...right now i have 295/30 toyo and it seems to clear everything. but if i can go a few bigger, would be somewhat reasnable

[Lee N.]

Not worried about leaks anytime soon for sure, just adding observations. I know that if manufacturers can save a buck they will. If Eibach or FRPP did not feel these boots were needed on this specific shock, they would have been deleted long ago, it is part of saving $$$ in the manufacturing world. They felt it was needed and we can't use it for our wider tire/wheel mod, simple as that. So the original question is/was.................Why did Eibach and the manufacturer of the FRPP shocks (design to Ford Racing specifications) install them if they do nothing and are just an extra cost for them to design and install? <<<This does not fall in line with current corporate mentality, where .50 cents x 10,000 is a huge deal. They don't look very colorful for bling, but they seem to have a purpose, what is that purpose? Why would they be shielding dust from this area? where the piston comes out of the shock?

 

Yes, once I begin my install (because of your pioneering in this effort Lee), I know that I will have to heavily modify or completely remove this boot. As with the multiple discussions about the bumpstop/lift bracket and its removal and the "what was its purpose" questions, this boot is another area that will require modification and no one has asked "what is its purpose"? Why is it there as installed by its manufacturer?

 

 

R

 

Never said there was no reason, just that for our application we should be ok without them. I did not think the Eibach kit had boots, but mine has the FRP so all I have done is look at pictures of the kit. Biggest thing that comes to my mind as to a reason for any type of shock boot is salt. If you are driving in an area that salts the roads quite often due to ice I can see the dust boots helping extend the life of the shocks. Salt sitting on a shock shaft will pit it after a while. The pitting could cause your seals to wear out early or the top of the shaft might rust over time. Even with that said "I" would prefer not having them even in those conditions because without them I can clean the shock shafts. Can not do that with the boots on. But granted most people would not go to the trouble. Also keep in mind these shocks were not made specifically for the Super Snake. I seriously doubt many (if any) SS owners use there car as a daily driver, much less in the snow, ice and rain.

 

As far as adding expense to the shocks I take it you have not mess with them yet. I can not imagine they add much more than a nickle to the manufacturing cost of the shock. I easily cut mine off with a simple box knife.

 

It all comes down to a choice. You can keep your 295's and not remove the dust cover dust covers and slide all over the road, or cut the things off and slap your 335's on (then you slide all over the road a little less). To me its a no-brainer!