PTWA Process for 2011 Aluminum Block Article/Video

[bpmurr]

Here is a nice article and video showing the PTWA process.

 

http://jalopnik.com/5467038/the-ford-engine-technology-good-enough-for-the-nissan-gt+r

[Ezkill]

Here is a nice article and video showing the PTWA process.

 

http://jalopnik.com/5467038/the-ford-engine-technology-good-enough-for-the-nissan-gt+r

 

 

 

That's actually pretty cool. I wasn't really worried about getting the new engine...even less so now. Still looks brand new after 250,000 miles? even if that's generous by half....still impressive.

[GT500_ROCKS]

that was amazing, that is just too cool, the oil absorption properties is unreal

[Son of GT]

The PTWA process has been used in aircraft turbine engines for quite awhile now, and no jet turbine manufacturer would risk building a jet engine that would be unreliable or subject to failure.

 

But some people still suffer from the "world is flat" syndrome and are not able to understand or accept new technology even if it bites them in the ass. No matter, those who still don't get it will continue to wallow in their own ignorant bliss because it's easer for them to crap on things that they don't understand rather than taking the time to research facts.

 

Thanks for posting the article link, BP. For more information about PTWA and the coating process, you can also go to Honsel's website too.

[moabman]

The PTWA process has been used in aircraft turbine engines for quite awhile now, and no jet turbine manufacturer would risk building a jet engine that would be unreliable or subject to failure.

 

But some people still suffer from the "world is flat" syndrome and are not able to understand or accept new technology even if it bites them in the ass. No matter, those who still don't get it will continue to wallow in their own ignorant bliss because it's easer for them to crap on things that they don't understand rather than taking the time to research facts.

 

Thanks for posting the article link, BP. For more information about PTWA and the coating process, you can also go to Honsel's website too.

 

 

Got to agree with you Son of GT!

 

BTW why is the P3 so much faster than the C-130 with the same engines? :happy feet:

[Son of GT]

Got to agree with you Son of GT!

 

BTW why is the P3 so much faster than the C-130 with the same engines?

 

 

PTWA coated turbines; that's why!

[moabman]

PTWA coated turbines; that's why!

 

 

Shoot you say! And all this time I thought it was those great Navy pilots..............

 

Seriously, I love this new technology. As with any new technology, there will be some issues- for example someone will try to bore the cylinders and when the engine breaks, blame it on the technology.

I haven't heard if the sputtering is done in a vacuum or not. Anyone know?

[Son of GT]

Shoot you say! And all this time I thought it was those great Navy pilots..............

 

Seriously, I love this new technology. As with any new technology, there will be some issues- for example someone will try to bore the cylinders and when the engine breaks, blame it on the technology.

I haven't heard if the sputtering is done in a vacuum or not. Anyone know?

 

 

I don't know if it's done in a vacuum, and we might never find out as it may be considered to be a trade secret, at least for now anyway.

 

As far as reboring a PTWA engine block, I will concede that the days of local machine shops boring or over boring cylinders are over with these types of engine blocks, but I suspect that the engine manufacturers will eventually offer oversized PTWA crate blocks for race applications too.

[moabman]

I don't know if it's done in a vacuum, and we might never find out as it may be considered to be a trade secret, at least for now anyway.

 

As far as reboring a PTWA engine block, I will concede that the days of local machine shops boring or over boring cylinders are over with these types of engine blocks, but I suspect that the engine manufacturers will eventually offer oversized PTWA crate blocks for race applications too.

 

 

Being a geoscientist, I love the idea that the sputtered iron actually forms a new mineral crystal coating on the cylinder. A mineral that apparently is able to hold the oil in place better and reduce the friction and increase the wall life.

[GOTVENOMGT500]

Awesome to see the process, this kind of R&D innovation and technology rivals what Chevy puts into Corvette over the years. Way to go Ford

[thms0816]

Here is a nice article and video showing the PTWA process.

 

http://jalopnik.com/5467038/the-ford-engine-technology-good-enough-for-the-nissan-gt+r

 

 

 

Hi,

 

if you're interested in PTWA, have a look at www.iot.rwth-aachen.de (site is availiable in english) or http://flame-spray.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73&Itemid=53

 

Thomas

[thms0816]

Being a geoscientist, I love the idea that the sputtered iron actually forms a new mineral crystal coating on the cylinder. A mineral that apparently is able to hold the oil in place better and reduce the friction and increase the wall life.

 

 

 

Due to rapid solidification during spraying wuestite (FeO) is stabilized down to room temperature. Contrary to other unwanted iron oxides ("rust") it serves as a solid lubricant. Oil storage capacities are provided by porosity within the coating, which is being laid open by the subsequent honing process. In cast in liners oil storage capacities are provided only by the honing grppves.

 

Thomas

[thms0816]

I don't know if it's done in a vacuum, and we might never find out as it may be considered to be a trade secret, at least for now anyway.

 

As far as reboring a PTWA engine block, I will concede that the days of local machine shops boring or over boring cylinders are over with these types of engine blocks, but I suspect that the engine manufacturers will eventually offer oversized PTWA crate blocks for race applications too.

 

 

...its not a trade secret: PTWA spraying is carried out in air atmosphere.

 

Thomas

[thms0816]

a schematic of the PTWA process:

[Dennis70Mach]

I'm curious to know what people are thinking of the long term reliability of the new aluminum engine block in the 2011 GT500. As most people know, the new aluminum block in the GT500 doesn't have traditional iron cylinder liners like most aluminum engine blocks have. I know the article for this thread said that Ford did a 250K mile test, but someone posted a corrosion over time concern to the article, not a mileage issue, but an over time issue. Just curious of what people think.

 

I collect old car mags and I read an article in an old Car and Driver mag from the late 60s or early 70s that touted the new technology for the lack of cylinder liners in the new aluminum engine block of the....Chevrolet Vega. Several years later, those engines were developing massive problems. I am obviously not comparing the GT500 to a Vega, I am just wondering if over time this new aluminum engine block will prove reliable. Just curious.

[RickyD]

The process most likely improved a lot since 40+ years !!

[moabman]

There were many topics that discussed this previously. here's one of them:

 

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php?/topic/53894-good-read-on-fords-2011-aluminum-block-technology/page__p__917211__hl__PWTA__fromsearch__1entry917211

[GOTVENOMGT500]

I tried to run a search on Google for issues on the Nissan GT-R but had no luck concerning engine issues but 1 millons hits about the GT-R lanuch control issues. Anyone else find info about any GT-R owners mentioning problems with their motors that use the PTWA

[moabman]

That's because the Nissan GT-R DID NOT use PWTA! It used an entirely different process called NIKASIL. It's only natural to think that they are comparable but they aren't. Nikasil is a wet electrochemical coating process while PWTA is a mechanical process.

[GOTVENOMGT500]

 

Quote from Flame-spray.com Ford's partner in development of the PTWA technology

 

"Flame-Spray, a company located in Port Washington, New York, developed the PTWA method as a result of the automotive industry’s need to replace expensive cast-iron liners in aluminum engines since they counteract the aluminum block’s attractive, lighter weight. PTWA accomplishes this by providing a system that is able to coat the inside of the cylinder bores of the engine with a low-friction, wear-resistant thermal spray coating that adds minimal weight. The invention of PTWA took over ten years to perfect by Flame-Spray and Ford Motor Company. By using the PTWA apparatus and method rather than cast-iron liners, automotive manufacturers can safely and cost-effectively reduce the weight of a V-8 engine by approximately six pounds (2.7 kilograms).

 

PTWA was used in the 2008 Nissan GT-R, which was voted the 2009 Motor Trend and Automotive Magazine’s Car of the Year. The wire plasma-coated cylinder bores of the engine in the GT-R ensure optimal efficiency and high environmental standards, which were key components of the GT-R’s achievement. Since PTWA improves heat transfer, it allows for increased boosting and performance while reducing emission and fuel consumption, which is extremely environmentally-friendly. "

 

End Quote.

 

http://flame-spray.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=37&Itemid=50&limitstart=4

 

Fourth Paragraph under the heading "Engineers Receive 36th National Inventor of the Year Award "

 

 

Nissan GT-R IS NOT mentioned on the list of cars using the Nikasil process here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil

 

 

Nissan GT-R IS MENTIONED under Plasma Transferred Wire Arc Processs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_Transferred_Wire_Arc

[moabman]

http://www.autozine.org/html/Nissan/GTR_R35.html

 

"Following the retirement of RB26DETT, Nissan developed a new VR38DETT V6 for the GT-R. Compare with the old straight-6, the 60-degree V6 is shorter and benefits weight distribution of course. This engine is loosely based on the VQ series engine but thoroughly modified – not only added twin-IHI turbochargers and intercoolers, but also converted to hybrid wet/dry-sump lubrication (to withstand high g-force) and closed-deck construction (to increase stiffness). Cast iron cylinder liners have been replaced by a thin layer of plasma coating (Nikasil) in order to reduce friction. Sadly, the variable valve lift mechanism found on VQ37VHR was not used, while the continuous variable cam phasing is limited to intake camshafts only. However, with 3.8 liters of capacity and twin-turbochargers boosting up to 0.7 bar, its output will never disappoint – 480 horsepower is achieved at 6400 rpm, while 433 lb-ft of torque is available continuously from 3200 to 5200 rpm. The former matches Porsche 911 Turbo, although the latter trails that car a little bit (457 lb-ft from 1950-5000 rpm). The old R34 was good for about 330 hp and 293 lb-ft, so the new car is massively more powerful.

 

Our only disappointment is the IHI turbochargers. Reason one is that they do not have variable vane geometry like Porsche 911 Turbo. This explain why the engine feels less responsive than the Porsche under 3000 rpm. Reason two is that they are made of stainless steel instead of the previous car's ceramic. Although stainless steel turbines are lighter and quicker to spool up, they are less resistant to heat than ceramic turbines. This mean the new GT-R has less space for power tuning. Besides, the turbochargers are now integrated with the exhaust manifolds, so replacing them requires a great deal of work and money."

[Ezareth]

http://www.autozine.org/html/Nissan/GTR_R35.html

 

"Following the retirement of RB26DETT, Nissan developed a new VR38DETT V6 for the GT-R. Compare with the old straight-6, the 60-degree V6 is shorter and benefits weight distribution of course. This engine is loosely based on the VQ series engine but thoroughly modified – not only added twin-IHI turbochargers and intercoolers, but also converted to hybrid wet/dry-sump lubrication (to withstand high g-force) and closed-deck construction (to increase stiffness). Cast iron cylinder liners have been replaced by a thin layer of plasma coating (Nikasil) in order to reduce friction. Sadly, the variable valve lift mechanism found on VQ37VHR was not used, while the continuous variable cam phasing is limited to intake camshafts only. However, with 3.8 liters of capacity and twin-turbochargers boosting up to 0.7 bar, its output will never disappoint – 480 horsepower is achieved at 6400 rpm, while 433 lb-ft of torque is available continuously from 3200 to 5200 rpm. The former matches Porsche 911 Turbo, although the latter trails that car a little bit (457 lb-ft from 1950-5000 rpm). The old R34 was good for about 330 hp and 293 lb-ft, so the new car is massively more powerful.

 

Our only disappointment is the IHI turbochargers. Reason one is that they do not have variable vane geometry like Porsche 911 Turbo. This explain why the engine feels less responsive than the Porsche under 3000 rpm. Reason two is that they are made of stainless steel instead of the previous car's ceramic. Although stainless steel turbines are lighter and quicker to spool up, they are less resistant to heat than ceramic turbines. This mean the new GT-R has less space for power tuning. Besides, the turbochargers are now integrated with the exhaust manifolds, so replacing them requires a great deal of work and money."

 

 

You are trying to compare a two year old post of what is essentially a blog to what is easily confirmable on both FlameSpray and Nissan's sites and even Ford's websites.

 

IPO

[moabman]

You are right. Apparently Autozine was mistaken - the "plasma" in front of the "nikasil" should have given it away for me because nikasil is an electrochemical plating technique not a plasma deposition process. The "blog" however, looked very detailed and did contain a lot of good information about the GT-R and it was the first reference that showed inYahoo but I forgot that you can't always believe everything you read on the internet.

 

Sooooo, why does anyone think that the GT-R has had any problems associated with the PTWA?

[Dennis70Mach]

This may just be a situation that we will have to see years down the road to determine if there will be any issues. I don't know, I was just curious.

[Ezareth]

You are right. Apparently Autozine was mistaken - the "plasma" in front of the "nikasil" should have given it away for me because nikasil is an electrochemical plating technique not a plasma deposition process. The "blog" however, looked very detailed and did contain a lot of good information about the GT-R and it was the first reference that showed inYahoo but I forgot that you can't always believe everything you read on the internet.

 

Sooooo, why does anyone think that the GT-R has had any problems associated with the PTWA?

 

 

I did quite a bit of research on the blogs on my end before ordering my '11 and I found noone who mentioned anything negative about the coating other than the fact that you can't rebore the engine and (in europe) there is noone who can "recoat" your engine for you if needed. Firespray I believe offers this service in the event you do need to rebore your engine.

 

Since this was a 2008 car you'd think issues would have developed by now, and the GT-R like the Shelby GT500 is a heavily modded car. While not full proof, I think our risk factor is pretty low.

[mach 1 1970]

The PTWA process has been used in aircraft turbine engines for quite awhile now, and no jet turbine manufacturer would risk building a jet engine that would be unreliable or subject to failure.

 

But some people still suffer from the "world is flat" syndrome and are not able to understand or accept new technology even if it bites them in the ass. No matter, those who still don't get it will continue to wallow in their own ignorant bliss because it's easer for them to crap on things that they don't understand rather than taking the time to research facts.

 

Thanks for posting the article link, BP. For more information about PTWA and the coating process, you can also go to Honsel's website too.

 

The world is flat syndrome? Here's some examples from the home construction industry 1. Synthetic stucco 2. plastic piping in plumbing ( water supply) 3.Siding made from scap wood products. 4. Roofing shingles made in 2000 by major roofing co.5 Chinese wallboard 2005. All these products were produced and claimed to be well tested . Over time they all had one thing in commen THEY FAILED and cost alot to repair or replace. So people have to be aware of bad R&D out there. I am NOT trying to compare home constuction with Auto manufacturing . I am just saying people are just gun shy of new products from examples i have sited. This is a short list just to make a point. Buyer beware is somthing we all learn if we live long enough.The internet is full of alot of BAD facts . You can't expect a guy to become a auto engineer by reading the internet.So i can see why people question new tech when it comes around. I would like to think that everything we buy is well tested but that is a fools paradise. So BUYER BEWARE is what most people experience , not the world is flat.

[Ezareth]

The world is flat syndrome? Here's some examples from the home construction industry 1. Synthetic stucco 2. plastic piping in plumbing ( water supply) 3.Siding made from scap wood products. 4. Roofing shingles made in 2000 by major roofing co.5 Chinese wallboard 2005. All these products were produced and claimed to be well tested . Over time they all had one thing in commen THEY FAILED and cost alot to repair or replace. So people have to be aware of bad R&D out there. I am NOT trying to compare home constuction with Auto manufacturing . I am just saying people are just gun shy of new products from examples i have sited. This is a short list just to make a point. Buyer beware is somthing we all learn if we live long enough.The internet is full of alot of BAD facts . You can't expect a guy to become a auto engineer by reading the internet.So i can see why people question new tech when it comes around. I would like to think that everything we buy is well tested but that is a fools paradise. So BUYER BEWARE is what most people experience , not the world is flat.

 

 

None of that has anything to do with new technology....only companies that tried to save a buck by cutting corners.

 

I think the technology has been amply tested and is holding up as stated by many people. There is a difference between cutting edge technology, and mainstream technology. If you feel safe using mainstream technology then that is fine.

 

Noone is trying to sell us snake oil here. Ford has been pushing the Technology envelope out the most out of all of the Auto manufacturer's lately and I don't think they would be willing to put something that could blow up in their face in their flagship vehicle (The GT500).