SPRSNK Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Mods: Smaller Pulley on the Supercharger (I forget which size it is) Pypes shorty headers Sparco Evo Race Seats 6pt harnesses Numbers: 364 rwhp 325 Torque 15lbs of boost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Mods: Smaller Pulley on the Supercharger (I forget which size it is) Pypes shorty headers Sparco Evo Race Seats 6pt harnesses Numbers: 364 rwhp 325 Torque 15lbs of boost Very cool Rick! Can't wait for the pics. :happy feet: Lol, so you found out how hard it was to get the headers in from underneath? I've been meaning to ask you, and with 15lbs of boost, what did you do to the internals of the engine and have you done any head work? Leann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dh777 Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 Mods: Smaller Pulley on the Supercharger (I forget which size it is) Pypes shorty headers Sparco Evo Race Seats 6pt harnesses Numbers: 364 rwhp 325 Torque 15lbs of boost Ok, what else? We have long tube headers. Are you getting those numbers with just the pulley and the shorties? I know you and Jeff probably got something else going on there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPRSNK Posted January 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 Ok, what else? We have long tube headers. Are you getting those numbers with just the pulley and the shorties? I know you and Jeff probably got something else going on there! I had Patrick at PSI in Houston build a new tune for the car today. The stock tune is conservative and the tune I had done at another shop just sucked so bad my car wouldn't pass inspection. Currently the hold up with my car is the fuel injectors and the fuel pump. The pump is maxed out at 5500rpm. We'll be replacing the pump, fuel rails and throttle body next. It's still a stock engine. I have some concerns about the amount of boost, but I've heard from a lot of people that are getting 400rwhp on the 4.0 engine with stock internals. When time permits in the coming year, we'll be taking my extra 4.0 and doing a built engine for my Terlingua. Then we'll haul some serious butt around the track. After the Vegas bash, my car will be going back to the body shop because the paint job looks like it was done with a rattle can. We now have a guy working in the shop that is pretty handy with paint gun, so I'll be giving him a try on my car. He's currently doing SVOC wife's GT and it looks 1000x better than mine. We will also be adding the RMS Stage 3 setup including radiator, triple pass aftercooler radiator with fans and some other goodies to keep the car cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dh777 Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 I had Patrick at PSI in Houston build a new tune for the car today. The stock tune is conservative and the tune I had done at another shop just sucked so bad my car wouldn't pass inspection. Currently the hold up with my car is the fuel injectors and the fuel pump. The pump is maxed out at 5500rpm. We'll be replacing the pump, fuel rails and throttle body next. It's still a stock engine. I have some concerns about the amount of boost, but I've heard from a lot of people that are getting 400rwhp on the 4.0 engine with stock internals. When time permits in the coming year, we'll be taking my extra 4.0 and doing a built engine for my Terlingua. Then we'll haul some serious butt around the track. After the Vegas bash, my car will be going back to the body shop because the paint job looks like it was done with a rattle can. We now have a guy working in the shop that is pretty handy with paint gun, so I'll be giving him a try on my car. He's currently doing SVOC wife's GT and it looks 1000x better than mine. We will also be adding the RMS Stage 3 setup including radiator, triple pass aftercooler radiator with fans and some other goodies to keep the car cool. I always felt that the tune was a little too conservative. I feel like I should have more power than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blip Posted January 1, 2010 Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 Those changes are going to make for one hare that the "Foxes" will have a hard time catching. Can't wait to see the photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPRSNK Posted January 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2010 Most people have seen or heard of the hail damage my car received in Terlingua 09, here are the pics as the car currently sits. You can't tell, but I've also had the glass from the quarter windows removed and had the blanks riveted in. More pictures later. I still have the Razor's, these are my cheap track wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJ Posted January 2, 2010 Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 Looking good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loc15ope Posted January 2, 2010 Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 I always felt that the tune was a little too conservative. I feel like I should have more power than I do. the stock tune suckss you will see alot more power out of a better tune also if you put a smaller pully to get 15psi boost without adding methanol injection you will scorch the pistons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 . The stock tune is conservative and the tune I had done at another shop just sucked so bad my car wouldn't pass inspection. Wasn't the tune that was causing you not to pass inspection. the stock tune suckss you will see alot more power out of a better tune also if you put a smaller pully to get 15psi boost without adding methanol injection you will scorch the pistons The stock/Diablo tune has a bunch of timing pulled out of it and it runs very, very fat (lot of fuel) to make it safe, a fat tune will also be down on power, it the tune was leaned out, it would have made more power but also brought up cylinder temps and run the risk of pre-ignition detonation. I have several people running boost on the 4.0SOHC without meth, you people need to back off that crutch, well, no go ahead cause when you run out, we'll still be running, while you pull over and refill. I just took that handicap of a 1993 Cobra with 13lbs of boost, the owner was tired of having to fill the damn thing up every day, dialed back the timing, and no problems, but hey if you want to run everything you got right on the fine edge, go ahead. That's job security for me and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 SVOC, are you going to be at the Bash? I'd love to talk to you about the tune issue. It sounds like you are saying that a tune with more advance in the timing would allow more boost and net better fuel economy. But, I wouldn't know where or how to do this. I love your input on this thread and your great write-ups with the pics...thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 SVOC, are you going to be at the Bash? I'd love to talk to you about the tune issue. It sounds like you are saying that a tune with more advance in the timing would allow more boost and net better fuel economy. But, I wouldn't know where or how to do this. I love your input on this thread and your great write-ups with the pics...thanks No, Leann I will not be at the bash, I actually have a turbo 4popper I need to get back on the road a GT500 I have to prep for some mods and a Cobra R clone that still needs some help and a few other thing to do around the shop, so time isn't allowing me to go play at this moment. But, I have a phone and you are more than welcome to call me anytime and I'll be happy to discuss with you whatever you like. But to slam this back on track, these truck motors, yes truck motors the same ones that came out of the Explorer/Ranger that found their way into your Mustang/Shelby are very very reliable compared to the iron block, aluminum headed 3.8, and that's one of the main reasons they're in your cars. While you all have been just looking at the V-8 end of the spectrum we have been beating these motors up for a while, sure like anything they have thier low points, but all in all these little motors are great and take to mods like a fat kid on a cup cake. Here is a 4.0 OHV, basically the same bottom end at the SHOC motor running a Buick GN turbo with 18lbs of boost, and no meth, reliable daily driver! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Thanks Jeff...I'll be giving you a call when I get that far into it. I had been thinking I needed forged pistons and perhaps some head work. But, maybe that would be overkill for what I'd be using the car for. I had read that the rods came forged from the factory, but the pistons might be a weak spot. I have to be careful with my tunes in order to pass CARB inspection, but I understand that you can reprogram etc... thanks again and I will be picking your mind as I progress with my build... :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 SVOC, are you going to be at the Bash? I'd love to talk to you about the tune issue. It sounds like you are saying that a tune with more advance in the timing would allow more boost and net better fuel economy. But, I wouldn't know where or how to do this. I love your input on this thread and your great write-ups with the pics...thanks Sorry I ran off with out answering your quation: Timing doesn't give you more boost, spinning the supercharger faster with a smaller pulley will allow you that, unless you change the compressor housing and wheel to a different trip to allow for a more volume of air. Timing is when the computer removes the ground side of the coil pack to collapse the primary field of the coil causing the energy that has built up to goto the secondary side of the coil to produce the voltage/spark you see at the spark plus, the timing aspect is is "when" that happens, such as looking at a circle/clock, 360* make that circle, if 0*/12o'clock is Top Dead Center, and we have advanced timing of 10*, then the computer will fire the spark plug 10* Before Top Dead Center, if the timing was retarded it would be the opposite of this, or it would happen after top dead center. Pre-ignition detonation: Detonation occurs when excessive heat and pressure in the combustion chamber cause the air/fuel mixture to autoignite. This produces multiple flame fronts within the combustion chamber instead of a single flame kernel. When these multiple flames collide, they do so with explosive force that produces a sudden rise in cylinder pressure accompanied by a sharp metallic pinging or knocking noise. The hammer-like shock waves created by detonation subject the head gasket, piston, rings, spark plug and rod bearings to severe overloading. This self ignition is like in a Diesel (Heat of combustion), note the similar "noise" you hear" the "knock". When excessive cylinder temps are reached this self/heat of combustion can/will happen, keeping this under control, such as a rich/fat fuel condition helps as the cooler fuel will absorb some of this heat, also removing or "Retarding" the timing will also help. Another thing as people see it as a non-conduce part, is the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation), this opens up under part throttle to dilute the fuel mixture also to control excessive cylinder temps, and ACTUALLY allows for more timing at lower RPM's which in turn also gives you more tip-in throttle feel, and power, along with like I said controlling cylinder temps, never mind the emissions part of the spectrum here. *breath* Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Thanks Jeff...I'll be giving you a call when I get that far into it. I had been thinking I needed forged pistons and perhaps some head work. But, maybe that would be overkill for what I'd be using the car for. I had read that the rods came forged from the factory, but the pistons might be a weak spot. I have to be careful with my tunes in order to pass CARB inspection, but I understand that you can reprogram etc... thanks again and I will be picking your mind as I progress with my build... :happy feet: You are far and away, further along than many, you at least know exactly what you want to do with the car, with that knowledge, I can consult with you on the path you can take to accomplish this without going back and doing things twice or let along buying something you don't need. Right now the only thing this will cost you is sometime on the phone with me, and that as I can see is fairly inexpensive, and knowledge is powerful. Look forward to talking with you, I take it your going to the bash, so please at least have a half ounce of fun for me, I would appreciate it. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Thanks Jeff....I definitely will. Wish you had the time to come on out as well. We, the folks on the Terlingua thread, will be thinking of you for sure...when you get a chance, give me a pm with your phone number. You're sure right about doing things right the first time: I hate waisting money and time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 For giggles, let me blow up your brain a little, look at this little recipe, and this might give you something to crunch on, but of course these HP numbers are by far and away probably no where you want to be, and there are a few key elements left out on prupose, cause you know we wouldn't want someone to copy Grandmother's recipe, right?? The Objective A 4.0 SOHC that will consistently hold 500HP and 600HP at the drag strip. (for a decent cost) - in other words, if this can't be done for a certain price, then a different motor is a better option. Stock 4.0 SOHC INFO Deck Height 8.858 Bore 3.953 Stroke 3.31 Rod Length 5.748 Piston Pin Height 1.44 Cylinder Bore Diameter 3.9530 Out-of-round limit 0.0010 Taper 0.0010 Piston / Rings Standard DIA 3.9520 3.9528 .5 MM OS 3.9716 3.9724 1 MM OS 3.9900 3.9910 Piston to bore limit 0.0012 0.0020 Compression Ring end gap (top) 0.0080 0.0180 Compression Ring end gap (Bottom) 0.0180 0.0280 Oil Ring Snug Fit Crankshaft and connecting rods Crankshaft endplay 0.0020 0.0126 Connection rod journal DIA 2.1250 2.1260 Out-of-round and Taper limit 0.0003 Bearing oil clearance (desired) 0.0003 0.0024 Bearing oil clearance (allowable) 0.0005 0.0020 Connection rod endplay 0.0036 0.0106 Main bearing journal DIA 2.2430 2.2440 Out-of-round and Taper limit 0.0003 Main bearing oil clearance (desired) 0.0008 0.0015 Main bearing oil clearance (allowable) 0.0005 0.0020 Valves and related Intake valve seat angle 45 Degrees valve seat width 0.0600 0.0940 valve seat runout limit 0.0020 Stem diameter standard 0.2740 0.2750 stem to guide clearance 0.0010 0.0020 valve face angle 45 Degrees valve face runout limit 0.0010 Heads 68CC cambered Camshafts lobe lift (intake and exhaust) 0.2590 Allowable Lobe lift loss 0.0050 endplay 0.0003 0.0070 Journal DIA (ALL) 1.1000 1.1040 Bearing Inside DIA (ALL) 1.1020 1.1040 Journal-to-bearing (oil) clearance Standard 0.0020 0.0040 Journal-to-bearing (oil) clearance Service Limit 0.0060 Rods Rod Option 1 The first rod option is a Forged H-beam Manley rod that states it holds 700-800HP on a 4.6 V8. We v6 dudes have to overkill here because 500 HP on a v8 is different for 500HP on a v6. 4.6 L Stroker w/ 22 mm pin and a 2.000" crank journal Part No. 14044-8 Center-to Center 5.850" Big End Bore 2.125" Big End Width .940" Pin End Width .940" Pin Bore .8671" Gram Weight 612 Here is the rod. With this rod option, the rod journal (big end with the lip) will have to be narrowed by .064" per side. It should only be the little lip you see sticking out. The chamfer will then have to be re-cut and this should be it. This rod is longer than the stock 4.0 SOHC (Stock is 5.748" and this one is 5.840") this means the custom piston being made needs to have a shorter pin height. Custom pistons with floating pins will then need to be made to whatever compression you want. These rods go for around $579.50 for a set of 8. This means if you buy 3 set's for a v6, the forth set is free. Furthermore this means the rod cost per rod will be $72.44 (Not counting the machining cost) If we estimate the machining cost, say 150.00 per set of 8, we come up with $91.19 / rod. The H-beam rod option already available for the 4.0 SOHC is $125.00 per rod so you can see we've already beat that. So, to recap this option. Estimate $91.19 / Rod Estimate HP the rod can handle is 700-800HP This should be good for 500HP on the 4.0 SOHC Rod Option 2 SBC rods. UPDATE (9-5-2009) - I've decided to go this route for rods. The first option is still available; however, the cost was the deciding factor. The second rod option is a SBC eagle H-Beam rod that is 5.7" long from center to center. The stock 4.0 sohc rod is 5.748" so this rod is .048" shorter. This means the custom piston being made needs to have a longer pin height depending on the compression desired. The rod journal bore on this rod is 2.1" where as the stock 4.0 SOHC has a 2.125" rod journal. This means the bore has to be opened up. The cost per a set of 8 is lower for this rod ($359.00) so this puts us at $44.87 / rod. The machining cost will offset this and I'll update the thread when I get the info. The good about this option is the ARP rod bolts are 7/16" where as the first option has 3/8" rod bolts. Pistons Compression Ratio for boost UPDATE (9-5-2009) - I've decided to go with a 9.5:1 compression ratio (custom forged piston) and then get the piston tops coated. Here is a formula for helping pick a compression ratio for a boosted engine. Anything between 16:1 to 18:1 is what to shoot for on a street set-up. Anything above 20:1 is race care country. ((boost psi / 14.7) + 1) x motor compression = effective compression. Here is the 4.0 SOHC with 9.7:1 compression running 14 LBS of boost... Effective Compression 18.93809524 Here is the 4.0 SOHC with 9.5:1 compression running 14 LBS of boost... Effective Compression 18.54761905 Here is the 4.0 SOHC with 9.5:1 compression running 16 LBS of boost... Effective Compression 20.25782313 Here is the 4.0 SOHC with 9.5:1 compression running 50 LBS of boost... Effective Compression 42.69319728 (Okay, this is a little much) A motor with 8:1 compression running 18 lbs boost VS a 9.5:1 compression motor running 12 lbs boost will have almost the same effective compression and about the same peak power. The big difference will be where you see the power, and how much of a demand will be placed on the supercharger/turbo. Obviously, the 9.5:1 motor is going to have far greater torque and low end power as the boost is only starting to come in. It is also going to be much easier to find a blower/turbo to survive at only 12 lbs of boost -vs- one that would have to put out 18 lbs of boost. It is now very easy to see why a higher compression motor with lower boost is becoming so popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blip Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Jeff--thanks for taking the time to share all your 4.0 knowledge. I'm on a similar path to Leann with looking for the next step to a power adder system. I've been a roots type fan for years, (had 3 different Saleens with roots style S/C systems), but it looks like the Steeda version might not fit under the Terlingua hood. Now the idea of a dependable turbo system sounds very interesting, ( hadn't heard of using a GN system on the 4.0 before). My auto equiped Bunny will not be a hard charger track rabbit, more of a reliable fun cruiser, that can play on the track a few times a year. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 A motor with 8:1 compression running 18 lbs boost VS a 9.5:1 compression motor running 12 lbs boost will have almost the same effective compression and about the same peak power. The big difference will be where you see the power, and how much of a demand will be placed on the supercharger/turbo. Obviously, the 9.5:1 motor is going to have far greater torque and low end power as the boost is only starting to come in. It is also going to be much easier to find a blower/turbo to survive at only 12 lbs of boost -vs- one that would have to put out 18 lbs of boost. It is now very easy to see why a higher compression motor with lower boost is becoming so popular. Now since you have my brain on high kill and the coffee is coursing through my veins, lets talk some more about, about something Mr. Meth Injection forgot in the post above, you being a mathematical genius, should also know that when you compress air you create heat? This heat does two major things, it changed the density of the air, AND it creates uprated cylinder temperature, that is one of the reasons you have an intercooler. If this intercooler can't handle the heat load (revert back to heat movement theory) then it's not doing it's job and you will not get efficient power or volume/mass of air. Thus we need to step up the cooling effectiveness of the intercooler system, and/or slow the blower down, hench the more motor less boost build. The other thing, let's put a bigger twist on this is....................... DITCH THE SUPERCHARGER!!!!!!! Let's make power for free, lets use the heat from the spent exhaust gases and go turbo Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 :happy feet: This is great stuff Jeff! I had thought about the cooling aspect of the build by reading what the 500 people are doing with the bigger radiators and twin fans etc. I believe Dutch Bunny had ask you about installing something like that on his wife's Terlingua at some point, but have not heard back from him on if he did that or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 :happy feet: This is great stuff Jeff! I had thought about the cooling aspect of the build by reading what the 500 people are doing with the bigger radiators and twin fans etc. I believe Dutch Bunny had ask you about installing something like that on his wife's Terlingua at some point, but have not heard back from him on if he did that or not. Ok, well since this thread is about letting cat's out of the bag, so-to-speak, let me let another one out of the bag that I have been working on, and YES, this will work on the Terlingua, anymore info you want on this, you have my info, so let's start............... On the top is the stock, GT500 H/E, the middle one with the fans is ours (triple pass), the bottom one is the AFCO, I'll let the pictures speak for themselves........................ Cursing and popping of eyeballs is allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Great comparison and no doubt which one to use. Jeff, what is meant by "triple pass"? Also, is that the same part as a GT500 would use? Or must mods be made to it to fit our cars? (I'm just loving this conversation!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Great comparison and no doubt which one to use. Jeff, what is meant by "triple pass"? Also, is that the same part as a GT500 would use? Or must mods be made to it to fit our cars? (I'm just loving this conversation!) Ok, I will admit this is NOT completely "bolt-in", you do have to relocate the power steering cooler, and move the condenser aft ward, then of course there is the relocation of the intercooler pump and wiring the fans into the system. Triple pass, if you look at the side tanks closely, you will notice they are sectioned, and the fluid will pass across the top third first then move down pass back across then down the last third, also the diameter of the allows for more surface area for the liquid coolant to touch there by causing the heat from the liquid coolant to escape through more surface area of the aluminum tubing where the passing air can pick it up and carry it off and away from the H/E, resulting in a more effective dissipation of heat from the intercooling system. Plus this also increases the capacity of the intercooling system, which also in turn means it will take more heat to soak the system than normal. Bottom line, cooler air intake temps, denser air................. more reliable/consistant power. Theory: Talking here we have discussed, heat of conduction, and heat of convection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 So, a PITA to install, but well worth the effort. I wonder if this is something I can get SAI to do when they install the Paxton...just thinking of ways to save money and time. They would need to put a HE in, so why would they care which one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 So, a PITA to install? NO! Just uses a few more than two brain cells to install, If you had it in your hands, put me on speaker phone, I could talk you through it, and you would have it done, inside 2 hours, start to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Cool! That's the kind of installs I like! Is there any point to a larger radiator, or is the H/E the heart of the upgrade? I'm also intrigued with Blip's idea to go the turbo route... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Cool! That's the kind of installs I like! Is there any point to a larger radiator, or is the H/E the heart of the upgrade? I'm also intrigued with Blip's idea to go the turbo route... Yes, but I'm still working on the spacing/or lack there of of space for the radiator I have in my back pocket, as the results unfold I will definately keep you abreast, as for not my test subject as you well know is on the back of a trailer headed to the Bash, unless of course you or someone else wants me to lay hands on they're cars :mad scientist: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 If you weren't so far away, I'd be up to that . So, where do I get one of your H/E? I noticed that the Shelby store has the double pull, and not the triple pull you have... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVOC Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 If you weren't so far away, I'd be up to that . So, where do I get one of your H/E? I noticed that the Shelby store has the double pull, and not the triple pull you have... Check your pm's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
check6 Posted January 3, 2010 Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 pm sent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.