2009 Boss Mustang

[C0braFan]

Great find Dan!!! I'd love to know what's under the hood of that baby!!! I'm hoping 5.0 liters of blue oval muscle packing 400+ HP!!! :happy feet: :happy feet: :happy feet:

 

And let me add, to anyone who is attending, if you need anyone to carry your bags, I'm definitely available :happy feet:

 

 

I got an email from SVT yesterday about the event. While I do share in your enthusiasm for an upcoming Boss, I don't think that photo is worthy of so much excitement since it's obviously an FR500-C or -GT with a cammer under the hood.

[EXVp]

I tend to agree CObrafan...I don't think it's a real mule for anything, but rather another warmed over variant of the schools cars with off the shelf parts from Ford Racing. Overall, I wish there was more traffic and news bits of anything that look real showing up in this area of the board about a Boss model. The hype feels like it waining and hope slipping...

[MustangFanatic]

I would agree there has been no concrete news on a new Boss Mustang which is depressing and could indicate that there isn't really anything newsworthy to report regarding a future Boss Mustang. However, I tend to view this "blackout" as Ford managing the information flow and keeping the competition guessing as to their next step. While this development mule may not reflect the entire Boss package, I do believe this is the perfect opportunity to test some features that could show up on a future Boss model. Maybe, it is an IRS or Watts link suspension, a new engine or a host of other more minor changes. Getting such a mule in the hands of a few enthusiasts in a controlled setting would be an excellent way to gather feedback on potential changes/upgrades. Since these enthusiasts are likely to be attending SAAC anyway, it's free marketing research for Ford. Just my $.02

[1970boss302]

I would not be disappointed if FOrd offered a Boss package like the Bullet.

 

I just want to see a Boss before the tree huggers ruin everthing.

[1970boss302]

A reply on the Mustang source forms said he had a friend that works for FORD SVT

 

and there are models being tested for the BOSS 5.4 NA motor 400-410 HP on the streets now

 

He also said look for a mid summer 2008 introduction of the model also a MACH 1 coming.

[C0braFan]

A reply on the Mustang source forms said he had a friend that works for FORD SVT

 

and there are models being tested for the BOSS 5.4 NA motor 400-410 HP on the streets now

 

He also said look for a mid summer 2008 introduction of the model also a MACH 1 coming.

 

 

Woohoo!! That is, if "yet another rumor" is more reliable this time. That was one of my predictions a few months back, that if Ford is working on a Boss before the '10 redesign and the new H/Boss engine, then it would have to be the 5.4 GT500 engine without the S/C. It's an obvious choice. Looking forward to it!

[ShelbyDude]

Woohoo!! That is, if "yet another rumor" is more reliable this time. That was one of my predictions a few months back, that if Ford is working on a Boss before the '10 redesign and the new H/Boss engine, then it would have to be the 5.4 GT500 engine without the S/C. It's an obvious choice. Looking forward to it!

 

 

This would my guess as well! The Boss is suppose to be out as a 2009 model. I heard it was being pushed back to 2010 but I that is only what I heard from reading posts on the internet. I have not heard anything from Ford about pushing the Boss back to 2010.

 

I suspect a Mach 1 will come eventually, but when who knows! But the last I ever heard coming from Ford was the Boss is next right after the GT500 and is going to be a 2009 model.

 

We will know soon enough. I suspect if the Boss is coming for 2009 it will debut at the auto shows in 2008 or early 2009.

[C0braFan]

This would my guess as well! The Boss is suppose to be out as a 2009 model. I heard it was being pushed back to 2010 but I that is only what I heard from reading posts on the internet. I have not heard anything from Ford about pushing the Boss back to 2010.

 

I suspect a Mach 1 will come eventually, but when who knows! But the last I ever heard coming from Ford was the Boss is next right after the GT500 and is going to be a 2009 model.

 

We will know soon enough. I suspect if the Boss is coming for 2009 it will debut at the auto shows in 2008 or early 2009.

 

Do you suspect it will be a late 09 release (i.e. winter rather than summer) like the Shelby GT this year? I would think with the redesign set to be released in 09, all of the actual 09 models will have a full production run starting in mid 2008.

 

I figured there wasn't room for more specialty models, with the GT500 and S-GT, Hertz, and GT/CS. I remember reading somewhere that SVT only planned to run the GT500 for 2-3 years. So, given the over-the-top nature of the new KR, perhaps this is Ford's way of letting the GT500 go out with a bang.

 

Perhaps the Romeo Niche Engine Assembly Line will continue to build 5.4s, but next year there will be no S/C. And, with all of the aftermarket builders confusing the general public, maybe some real working-class enthusiasts will have a chance to get one.

[MustangFanatic]

A reply on the Mustang source forms said he had a friend that works for FORD SVT

 

and there are models being tested for the BOSS 5.4 NA motor 400-410 HP on the streets now

 

He also said look for a mid summer 2008 introduction of the model also a MACH 1 coming.

 

Unless it is an all-alloy 5.4L 4V Boss, I'm wouldn't be too excited about this rumor. A cast iron 5.4L would make the Boss too heavy to support the Boss legacy. The Boss Mustang should be nimble handling car that achieves an excellent balance between handling, braking and acceleration. A NA version of the GT500 engine belongs more in a Mach I than a Boss in my book.

[C0braFan]

Unless it is an all-alloy 5.4L 4V Boss, I'm wouldn't be too excited about this rumor. A cast iron 5.4L would make the Boss too heavy to support the Boss legacy. The Boss Mustang should be nimble handling car that achieves an excellent balance between handling, braking and acceleration. A NA version of the GT500 engine belongs more in a Mach I than a Boss in my book.

 

Your argument doesn't hold up to the facts. Don't forget, we're talking about a production street car here. Even the FR500C weighs 3200 lbs, which is more than a C6 Vette. So unless SVT uses carbon-fiber, it is destined to weigh slightly more than a normal GT.

 

The Boss 302 put out 290 hp, which is adjusted to 261 net hp (today's standard). Take your new Mustang GT out for a spin, because you already have more than an equivalent Boss 302. 300 hp really was the limit for Ford's small block at the time. if you wanted much more than 300 hp, you simply went with a big block...hence there was no need for a higher-output 302. Furthermore, 300 hp was plenty for Trans Am.

 

If we're talking about the 429, it was built for an oval track, i.e. NASCAR.

 

The new GT500 weighs in at 3900 lbs, while a regular GT is 3600. Of those 300 lbs, about 200 can be found just in the S/C, intercooler, and Brembo brakes. All we're talking about here is an engine that, at a cost of 100 lbs, easily puts out +100 hp. That's just the start, before tuning and CAI, which is such a given for enthusiasts like us, we might as well call it 450 hp from the start.

 

The N/A iron 5.4 simply makes sense and it's doable right now. In fact I will put $20 on it, that an 08 5.4 Boss will be released by this time next year.

[MustangFanatic]

The new GT500 weighs in at 3900 lbs, while a regular GT is 3600. Of those 300 lbs, about 200 can be found just in the S/C, intercooler, and Brembo brakes. All we're talking about here is an engine that, at a cost of 100 lbs, easily puts out +100 hp. That's just the start, before tuning and CAI, which is such a given for enthusiasts like us, we might as well call it 450 hp from the start.

 

The N/A iron 5.4 simply makes sense and it's doable right now. In fact I will put $20 on it, that an 08 5.4 Boss will be released by this time next year.

 

I continue to submit the PJ Saleen as the example of what a Boss Mustang can and should be. The PJ weighs less than a GT (listed on the Saleen website as 3550 lbs), makes 400 hp, has 19" wheels and 14" front brakes all with nearly 30 fewer cubic inches and more than 150 lbs less weight than a 5.4L Boss could achieve. Even without the SC and all the attending materials, an iron block 5.4L 4V Mustang will tip the scales north of 3,700 lbs. Additionally, most of that added weight is in the worst possible place to achieve balanced handling in a Mustang - between the shock towers. All reviews of the PJ comment on how it achieves a level of handling the S197 has yet to achieve in any other model - very nimble compared even to the GT. My question has always been, why can't Ford build a similar car for less money? Nothing in the PJ is particularly trick or exotic, just good old fashioned hot rodding principles applied correctly. While the PJ is considerably more expensive than the GT500, much of that cost can be attributed to Saleen profit margin and the disassembly/reassembly costs associated with the conversion.

 

A NA 5.4L powered Boss Mustang only makes "sense" from a Ford economic standpoint, not an enthusiasts view. Since the long delayed H/Boss whatever-they-decide-to-call-it engine is STILL not ready for prime time, Ford needs SOMETHING to compete with the Camaro and Challenger in '09. In this case, that "something" is a NA version of the GT500 engine. A 5.4L Boss is only being pursued because Ford can make the economics work in their favor and such a model will be perceived by the general public as "competing" with their cross town rivals. If Ford really wanted to make a "Bold Move" then they should offer the new TwinForce dual turbo 3.5L V6 in a Boss Mustang. Output would be at least equal to a NA 5.4L V8 without the weight penalty.

[C0braFan]

I continue to submit the PJ Saleen as the example of what a Boss Mustang can and should be. The PJ weighs less than a GT (listed on the Saleen website as 3550 lbs), makes 400 hp, has 19" wheels and 14" front brakes all with nearly 30 fewer cubic inches and more than 150 lbs less weight than a 5.4L Boss could achieve.

 

Agreed! It's a beautiful car, well built. I would guess that Saleen is banking about $20,000 net on that car, so Ford could certainly sell it for around $40k and turn a profit. But we're still only talking about 150 lb difference, and the 5.4 is already being mass produced, with the Niche Line able to crank out 12,000 of them last year. Instead of discounting the 5.4 solely on weight, how about some compromises? i.e. battery relocation, etc, to lighten the front. A hardcore Boss fan might remove some creature comforts and rear seat to get it down to the PJ's weight.

 

A NA 5.4L powered Boss Mustang only makes "sense" from a Ford economic standpoint, not an enthusiasts view.

 

Ford is in the business to make money, first and foremost, so everything Ford does, particularly now with so many financial woes, must lead to cost savings or increased profit, any special projects must be done as efficiently and cost effectively as possible. So, saying it doesn't make sense for Ford to use the 5.4 is a very narrow point of view that is just not practical.

 

I'll reiterate that if we're talking about 100-150 lbs difference here, only a handful of people like yourself will complain about it. I would buy one, so would most Mustang fanatics....and when it comes right down to it....so would you. So this debate over 100-150 lbs is silly. Especially when you consider the upcoming competition...with the new Camaro and Challenger both weighing upwards of 4000 lbs. Why? Because no one will be taking these cars to the track in stock form. Anyone who wants to race will strip them, just like they did for T-A back in the day.

[MustangFanatic]

CobraFan, I respect your right to your opinion and do not attempt to marginalize it by calling it silly or narrow minded, I would respectfully request that you extend that courtesy to others.

 

Ford has seen fit in recent years to only cater to the straight line performance crowd and ignore those of us who want to Mustang that can actually hold it's own on a road course or your favorite stretch of two lane blacktop. A well-balanced, superb handling Mustang is long over due from Ford - it is time enthusiasts stop accepting Ford's excuses and demand that our needs be addressed as fully as those seeking max HP muscle cars like the GT500. What is being requested in a new Boss is neither exotic nor unattainable, it can be accomplished and in a manner that would be profitable for Ford. The Boss has a rich performance heritage in Trans-Am and I would rather see Ford get this one right rather than rush something to market just to appear to be competing with GM and Chrysler. Go ahead and make a NA 5.4L 4V Mustang with an iron block, just call it a Mach I and offer it with both manual and auto transmissions with drag race oriented suspension.

[C0braFan]

CobraFan, I respect your right to your opinion and do not attempt to marginalize it by calling it silly or narrow minded, I would respectfully request that you extend that courtesy to others.

 

 

I just couldn't disagree with you more on this issue.

 

Most enthusiasts won't care if the car weighs 3700 lbs. There isn't even very much support for some fictional road racer that you describe. I've made some very compelling comparisons, with the GT500, the PJ, the FR500C, but all you have done is complain about weight. How about some constructive points? What is it about the platform that is so heavy in the first place?

 

You praised the 3550-lb PJ. Since we're talking about 150 lbs as the sole objection to the 5.4 block, that is not a compelling enough reason to dismiss it, considering that it will be capable of 450 hp with a few bolt-ons.

 

Let's say Ford begins building a 5.4 N/A Boss next summer, and it weighs 3700 lbs. Are you telling me that you would absolutely not buy one in order to make a statement of objection, that Ford screwed it up IYO?

 

The back seat is worth 40 lbs. The jack and spare tire is worth, what? Carbon fiber hood and fenders. Lightweight rear window. You can get it down to 3400 lbs and still keep it comfortable if you're willing to pay.

 

Speaking of which, the Trans Am cars didn't have A/C, P/S, power windows, 6-disc CD changers, 5-speed M/T, air bags, power seats, hmmm...what else?

 

So....in my humble opinion (note big disclaimer!)....you want a car that will never be built because it's unreasonable.

[MustangFanatic]

Again, with the insults - why do you feel compelled to berate and attack others for sharing an opinion counter to your own?

 

 

Most enthusiasts won't care if the car weighs 3700 lbs. There isn't even very much support for some fictional road racer that you describe. I've made some very compelling comparisons, with the GT500, the PJ, the FR500C, but all you have done is complain about weight. How about some constructive points? What is it about the platform that is so heavy in the first place?

 

Many constructive points have been raised. Much of the discussion in this thread has centered around what we want in a Boss Mustang and possible scenarios to achieve. A couple of excellent examples are provided below:

 

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/inde...post&p=6071

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/inde...ost&p=38215

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/inde...ost&p=42621

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/inde...ost&p=44705

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/inde...ost&p=57848

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/inde...ost&p=61075

 

You praised the 3550-lb PJ. Since we're talking about 150 lbs as the sole objection to the 5.4 block, that is not a compelling enough reason to dismiss it, considering that it will be capable of 450 hp with a few bolt-ons.

 

Not only is the 5.4L heavy in iron block trim, it is undersquare (long stroke, small bore) and doesn't rev as freely or breath as well as an oversquare configuration (short stroke, larger bore). Generally speaking, big bore engines prompt better breathing due to less valve shrouding and larger valve sizes. Parasitic losses are lower in a short stroke engine because the pistion doesn't travel as far with each revolution. Due to the bore spacing of the modular engine family overboring is unattainable unless spray-bore technology is used (here to fore only seen in race only modulars) Therefore, both the 4.6L an 5.4L engine use the same bore (3.552"), the only different between the engines is the 5.4L engine uses a taller deck block to obtain a longer stroke and greater displacement. This taller deck and longer stroke creates mechanical loading on the piston that limits piston speed and thus rpm potential. Therefore objections to the 5.4L aren't just associated with weight.

 

Let's say Ford begins building a 5.4 N/A Boss next summer, and it weighs 3700 lbs. Are you telling me that you would absolutely not buy one in order to make a statement of objection, that Ford screwed it up IYO? .

 

I would not buy a Boss Mustang equipped with an iron block 5.4L V8 for the reasons outlined above. I will consider a Saleen if they continue offering cars like the PJ and H281 which I would have never considered even 1 year ago - Saleen's creations are typically too over-wrought for my tastes.

 

The back seat is worth 40 lbs. The jack and spare tire is worth, what? Carbon fiber hood and fenders. Lightweight rear window. You can get it down to 3400 lbs and still keep it comfortable if you're willing to pay.

 

While the back seat, spare tire and lightweight rear window will reduce weight, you will be subtracting weight from the wrong end of the car. In addition to the cost prohibitive nature of a carbon fiber hood and fenders as you pointed out, neither the carbon fiber fenders nor the lightweight rear glass would pass federal collision standards negating those as options.

 

Speaking of which, the Trans Am cars didn't have A/C, P/S, power windows, 6-disc CD changers, 5-speed M/T, air bags, power seats, hmmm...what else?

 

No one suggested Ford make the Boss a Trans-Am race car, just a worthy road car with excellent balance instead of an overweight acceleration brute. Ford has neglected this segment since the last NA Cobra was produced in '01. Many here have suggested a return to the same formula that made the '96 - '01 Cobra successful, brilliant NA horsepower and exceptional balance and handling

 

So....in my humble opinion (note big disclaimer!)....you want a car that will never be built because it's unreasonable.

 

So I suppose the PJ and H281 Mustang's are unreasonable cars? Interesting...

[C0braFan]

Again, with the insults - why do you feel compelled to berate and attack others for sharing an opinion counter to your own?

 

Berate and attack are strong words. You just seem to be overly sensistive to opinions that differ from yours. We've been over this same issue before, if you'll review the history of this thread. You accuse me of attacking you every time I disagree with you. This is a highly speculative discussion, so disagreements should be expected. If I make a subjective statement and presume to speak for "all Ford enthusiasts" with a personal opinion, I would expect to be corrected too, but I wouldn't take it personally.

 

To be honest, your condescending attitude toward other opinions is irritating. Maybe that is why I come across the way I do. I don't want an argument, so I'm sorry for responding to your condescention in a confrontational manner.

[MustangFanatic]

This disertation is achieving nothing, we will agree to disagree

 

Anyone heard any more news or rumors on the Boss?

[BossMan69]

hate to rain on your parade but regardless of what engine appears under the hood of any new boss mustang the camaro and challenger are going to clean your clock - not trying to pick a fight just a reality...besides do we even know if ford is going to produce a boss...just rumor at this point...we know the camaro and challenger are bring heat under the hood

[mad103]

hate to rain on your parade but regardless of what engine appears under the hood of any new boss mustang the camaro and challenger are going to clean your clock - not trying to pick a fight just a reality...besides do we even know if ford is going to produce a boss...just rumor at this point...we know the camaro and challenger are bring heat under the hood

 

Hey Bossman,

 

Nice Ride. One of the few Maros I like. Like the SLP's? Got them on my cobra. Anyways, I DO believe they will bring back the Boss. It only seems natural that Ford revives yet another one of its legends. The new camaro and challenger will be a huge threat to mustangs, but I think that is why the Boss will come out....the info will just be released at the right time, if you know what I mean. In the past, Ford has revealed its secrets a little too early, early enough to give GM and D/C time to come up with the competition. IN regards to the maro and challenger, they will be powerful but super heavy! Charger has a TON of power but it weighs a lot and it is slow. I heard the challenger will weigh in only a little less than the charger! plus...the design of the camaro......eeehhh....got cadillac xlr on steriods?! M2c

[RUFDRAFT]

Challenger - 425 hp --- 4200 lbs.

 

I'm not worried!

[MustangFanatic]

Challenger - 425 hp --- 4200 lbs.

 

I'm not worried!

 

[68fastback]

Unless it is an all-alloy 5.4L 4V Boss, I'm wouldn't be too excited about this rumor. A cast iron 5.4L would make the Boss too heavy to support the Boss legacy. The Boss Mustang should be nimble handling car that achieves an excellent balance between handling, braking and acceleration. A NA version of the GT500 engine belongs more in a Mach I than a Boss in my book.

 

+1 ..

 

I'll pass on an undersquare, heavy, 5.4, iron 'Boss' :barf:

 

I'm trusting Ford knows better... the Boss must be light, agile, balanced and rev-happy. That's why I think the 5.4 Boss is dead and the Boss will more likely be late spring '09 as a MY'10 so the refresh can support the chassis changes for the H/Boss motor.

 

I'd be fine if ALL THAT moves in a whole year, but I'm not holding my breath. If Ford did the 5.4 Boss they could always follow it up with an H/Boss Boss, but then why cheapen the brand with an '09 that's not representative of the breed?

 

I also wouldn't get hung up on Ford saying the Boss is next ...it might be, but if it wasn't Ford might only announce in the 11th hour given coming competition. If there is an MY'09 Boss or other SE, it kinda has to show it's face in some form at SEMA this fall. The KR's already been announced, so there's no other pony toes (that we know of) to step on with a SEMA showing (outright or stealth) -- we can only hope :happy feet:

 

I have an run the GT500 for a the rumored 3rd year ('09), and do the Boss right as an MY'10 in Spring '09 with the 5.4 S/C motor flowing into the Mach in MYs '10 and '11. That gives Ford the 5-year run they supposedly planned to write development against (dunno) and puts two killer products in CY'09 agianst the Camy and Chal one NA and one S/C. Or do the Mach more wattered-down (450HP version as in the Romeo Harley F150 motor) and do a follow-on GT500 in the new skins with the TVS at a conservative 540HP (remember that's MY'10), but without all the upgrades and bling pieces of the KR. Don't know if Ford would do either exactly that way, but I do believe the 5.4 Romeo motor will run at least 5 years and it would break my heart (and shake my trust in Ford) if they cobbled a nose-heavy Boss with a 6200rpm redline Sheesh! <lol>

 

Dan

[RUFDRAFT]

Can I call you Dan?

 

Are you a good driver?

[1970boss302]

Can I call you Dan?

 

Are you a good driver?

 

 

The way the world is going I would be happy with a Boss with a V6 supercharged.

 

The only alternative is no BOSS which is what the tree huggers want.

 

To FORD I say if you build it they will come. ( buy )

[nilkilla]

SHHHH, this is the Fan vs Fanatic Forum

[MustangFanatic]

SHHHH, this is the Fan vs Fanatic Forum

 

 

I always wanted my own forum :beerchug:

[BossMan69]

SHHHH, this is the Fan vs Fanatic Forum

 

both of those guys (Fan and Fanatic) are typical Mustang owners, arrogant and conceited and don't know about cars, neither of you have probably ever been on dragstrip in your life (my ss runs 12.8's all day on street tires, wanna race?)...you think your Mustangs are the best even though my 7 yr old Camaro will smoke you....you guys are dillusional if you think the new Boss (or any new Mustang) will beat the new Camaro when it comes out....in case you forgot, the last generation Camaro owned the Mustang in every performance category (0-60, handling and braking)

[SLB8SNK]

both of those guys (Fan and Fanatic) are typical Mustang owners, arrogant and conceited and don't know about cars, neither of you have probably ever been on dragstrip in your life (my ss runs 12.8's all day on street tires, wanna race?)...you think your Mustangs are the best even though my 7 yr old Camaro will smoke you....you guys are dillusional if you think the new Boss (or any new Mustang) will beat the new Camaro when it comes out....in case you forgot, the last generation Camaro owned the Mustang in every performance category (0-60, handling and braking)

 

 

Let me be the first to tell you to go sell that somewhere else! The GT500 will make any Camaro look like a street pole standing still. Give me a break. Do you not recall that even Chevy gave up on the car, and only brought it back with the HOPES that some moronic Chevy only fans would buy one so as not to buy a FORD product! Bottom line, if you live for a Camaro, even your 7 year old grocery getter, than go find a Camaro Forum!

[BossMan69]

Let me be the first to tell you to go sell that somewhere else! The GT500 will make any Camaro look like a street pole standing still. Give me a break. Do you not recall that even Chevy gave up on the car, and only brought it back with the HOPES that some moronic Chevy only fans would buy one so as not to buy a FORD product! Bottom line, if you live for a Camaro, even your 7 year old grocery getter, than go find a Camaro Forum!

 

touchy, touchy, someone's a little over-sensitive about their 'stang (maybe the new name for this forum should be over-reactors anonymous) - besides we weren't talkin' 'bout the GT500 but the-still-a-pipe-dream Boss....but since you went there, comparing the GT500 to the Camaro or GTO or any other model isn't apples to apples...the GTO and new Camaro (and new Challenger) will be making HP the old fashioned way, w/o an SC.....bolt an SC one any of those previously mentioned cars and it would surpass the GT500 for less money, especially with the price being charged by dealers for the GT500 over and above sticker...if Ford ever decides to produce a Boss (not likely), it will be underpowered and outperformed by the Camaro and Challenger regardless of Ford's engine choice

[SLB8SNK]

touchy, touchy, someone's a little over-sensitive about their 'stang (maybe the new name for this forum should be over-reactors anonymous) - besides we weren't talkin' 'bout the GT500 but the-still-a-pipe-dream Boss....but since you went there, comparing the GT500 to the Camaro or GTO or any other model isn't apples to apples...the GTO and new Camaro (and new Challenger) will be making HP the old fashioned way, w/o an SC.....bolt an SC one any of those previously mentioned cars and it would surpass the GT500 for less money, especially with the price being charged by dealers for the GT500 over and above sticker...if Ford ever decides to produce a Boss (not likely), it will be underpowered and outperformed by the Camaro and Challenger regardless of Ford's engine choice

 

No not touchy, nor over sensitive, but tire of the folks like you who come here looking for words. Even with what you state I disagree. The GT500, even without the SC, is more car than anything you mentioned. It is designed from the ground up to act with its given HP and more. The cars you mention may have the capability for more, but will surely require more out of pocket to put the body and frame in line with the added HP. Take 50 or more HP away from the GT500 and it will still be a better car than anything you mentioned. But hey, just MHO. By the way, who would ever steep any lower than buying a Camaro and buy a Challenger???