2009 Boss Mustang

[1970boss302]

With Ford reducing the amount of Shelby GT500's being produced in 2008. That makes

 

the list of people waiting for the Boss growing. For those who can't wait try the Bullett

 

coming out next summer or wait for the Boss in 2009 model year. Hopefully it is a

 

option not limited on the Mustang. A Boss 302 package with a 400HP enegine who suit

 

most people fine.

[MustangFanatic]

From my perspective, the Bullitt is shaping up to be a major disappointment with mostly cosmetic changes. Rumors on other sites indicate the Bullitt will basically be a cosmetically altered Shelby GT with nearly the same engine and suspension mods.

 

 

http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=65257

 

I believe there is considerable pent-up demand for a road race inspired pony car with big brakes, stellar handling and 400 NA HP. If Ford doesn't step up and deliver a car to fit that description, someone else will. Additionally, Ford needs to make it a volume car and not something destined for a collector's museum. My preference is for an all-alloy 5.0L H/Boss Mustang appropriately named the Boss 302 but that's no secret to those who know me!

[C0braFan]

From my perspective, the Bullitt is shaping up to be a major disappointment with mostly cosmetic changes. Rumors on other sites indicate the Bullitt will basically be a cosmetically altered Shelby GT with nearly the same engine and suspension mods.

http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=65257

 

I believe there is considerable pent-up demand for a road race inspired pony car with big brakes, stellar handling and 400 NA HP. If Ford doesn't step up and deliver a car to fit that description, someone else will. Additionally, Ford needs to make it a volume car and not something destined for a collector's museum. My preference is for an all-alloy 5.0L H/Boss Mustang appropriately named the Boss 302 but that's no secret to those who know me!

 

You're right about pent-up demand. But the Bullitt will be no surprise. Ford is hurting badly. They've sold off Hertz and Aston Martin already, with Jaguar probably next. Ford is trying to secure a loan based on brand value without equity. Hello? They're in trouble! Momentum and cost dictate that any new platform or engine line will be used absolutely as long as possible, with very little variation--especially when costs are out of control and need to be reined in. This is not the 60's. You can't order a plain 68 hardtop with an S-code GT500 engine the way you could back then. Why would anyone believe a new 400 NA engine would be available for a new Boss or Bullitt unless it's a Modular? The ONLY way that could possibly happen so quickly is by using an existing engine.

 

But I've decided to stop complaining about Ford. I want Ford to continue to build awesome cars. I just wish they would listen to customers and be more responsive. The 05 Mustang GT was a brilliant car, beautifully designed, and expertly manufactured. I love driving my 06. Most of my angst is directed at greedy dealerships, not Ford itself.

 

As for the Boss, look at how closely Ford has been working with Shelby Autos to on the Shelby GT and the KR. Why couldn't Ford work with Saleen in a similar manner? Saleen announced the PJ a year ago, and could easily have sold the Saleen 302 with the Boss name. Saleen built an authentic, true Boss 302 in the PJ, with a stroked 4.6, and Saleen has the production capacity to crank them out, while Shelby Autos can barely get by in their small facility (using Ford Packs and replacement rear ends). Saleen has been building highly modified 4.6 engines with awesome forged internals at the same rate Shelby takes to crank out badge cars. That would have been a great solution--the authentic Boss 302 name and 400HP to back it up! :-) Too bad it's so overpriced. I doubt very much if Saleen spends over $10k on the PJ upgrades. So, we're looking at a car in the $35-40k range, exactly what one would expect a new Boss 302 to cost. Just a shame.

[MustangFanatic]

You're right about pent-up demand. But the Bullitt will be no surprise. Ford is hurting badly. They've sold off Hertz and Aston Martin already, with Jaguar probably next. Ford is trying to secure a loan based on brand value without equity. Hello? They're in trouble! Momentum and cost dictate that any new platform or engine line will be used absolutely as long as possible, with very little variation--especially when costs are out of control and need to be reined in. This is not the 60's. You can't order a plain 68 hardtop with an S-code GT500 engine the way you could back then. Why would anyone believe a new 400 NA engine would be available for a new Boss or Bullitt unless it's a Modular? The ONLY way that could possibly happen so quickly is by using an existing engine.

 

But I've decided to stop complaining about Ford. I want Ford to continue to build awesome cars. I just wish they would listen to customers and be more responsive. The 05 Mustang GT was a brilliant car, beautifully designed, and expertly manufactured. I love driving my 06. Most of my angst is directed at greedy dealerships, not Ford itself.

 

As for the Boss, look at how closely Ford has been working with Shelby Autos to on the Shelby GT and the KR. Why couldn't Ford work with Saleen in a similar manner? Saleen announced the PJ a year ago, and could easily have sold the Saleen 302 with the Boss name. Saleen built an authentic, true Boss 302 in the PJ, with a stroked 4.6, and Saleen has the production capacity to crank them out, while Shelby Autos can barely get by in their small facility (using Ford Packs and replacement rear ends). Saleen has been building highly modified 4.6 engines with awesome forged internals at the same rate Shelby takes to crank out badge cars. That would have been a great solution--the authentic Boss 302 name and 400HP to back it up! :-) Too bad it's so overpriced. I doubt very much if Saleen spends over $10k on the PJ upgrades. So, we're looking at a car in the $35-40k range, exactly what one would expect a new Boss 302 to cost. Just a shame.

 

CobraFan, you make the same argument many others including myself have made - if Saleen can build a Boss Mustang, why can't Ford? Saleen didn't do anything earth shattering, just massaged a good design and made it better. Saleen did what any company would do, they identified an unfulfilled need in the market and developed a product to fill that need. With all the excitment surrounding the PJ, Saleen is leveraging that with a likely higher volume car based on the PJ, the Heritage S281. Now granted, they could have done a better job with the name but the point is they are creating a package that delivers the right appearance and performance for the enthusiast. No magic formula here, just great packaging and execution. And certainly Saleen doesn't have the vast R&D resources of Ford so if they can develop such a stunning performer, WHY CAN'T FORD?!?! I agree with you, it boggles the mind and is truly shameful.

[RUFDRAFT]

Excuse me!

 

But would you have a link to info on the Heritage 281?

 

Thanks, y'all.

 

I've been lurking here and enjoying the banter!

 

Ruf

[Alloy Dave]

Excuse me!

 

But would you have a link to info on the Heritage 281?

 

Thanks, y'all.

 

I've been lurking here and enjoying the banter!

 

Ruf

http://www.saleen.com/2005_s281.htm

[RUFDRAFT]

http://www.saleen.com/2005_s281.htm

 

thanks, Dave. But that's 2005 pricing!

[MustangFanatic]

Hey Ruf, welcome to the party!! :banana piano:

 

The only info I have seen on the Heritage S281 was posted on Brad Barnett's site, nothing "official" from Saleen...

 

http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/timeline/0...itage/index.htm

 

I'm thinking Black or possibly Alloy Metallic... :happy feet:

[Alloy Dave]

thanks, Dave. But that's 2005 pricing!

So what's your point?

[68fastback]

You're right about pent-up demand. But the Bullitt will be no surprise. Ford is hurting badly. They've sold off Hertz and Aston Martin already, with Jaguar probably next. Ford is trying to secure a loan based on brand value without equity. Hello? They're in trouble! Momentum and cost dictate that any new platform or engine line will be used absolutely as long as possible, with very little variation--especially when costs are out of control and need to be reined in. This is not the 60's. You can't order a plain 68 hardtop with an S-code GT500 engine the way you could back then. Why would anyone believe a new 400 NA engine would be available for a new Boss or Bullitt unless it's a Modular? The ONLY way that could possibly happen so quickly is by using an existing engine.

 

But I've decided to stop complaining about Ford. I want Ford to continue to build awesome cars. I just wish they would listen to customers and be more responsive. The 05 Mustang GT was a brilliant car, beautifully designed, and expertly manufactured. I love driving my 06. Most of my angst is directed at greedy dealerships, not Ford itself.

 

As for the Boss, look at how closely Ford has been working with Shelby Autos to on the Shelby GT and the KR. Why couldn't Ford work with Saleen in a similar manner? Saleen announced the PJ a year ago, and could easily have sold the Saleen 302 with the Boss name. Saleen built an authentic, true Boss 302 in the PJ, with a stroked 4.6, and Saleen has the production capacity to crank them out, while Shelby Autos can barely get by in their small facility (using Ford Packs and replacement rear ends). Saleen has been building highly modified 4.6 engines with awesome forged internals at the same rate Shelby takes to crank out badge cars. That would have been a great solution--the authentic Boss 302 name and 400HP to back it up! :-) Too bad it's so overpriced. I doubt very much if Saleen spends over $10k on the PJ upgrades. So, we're looking at a car in the $35-40k range, exactly what one would expect a new Boss 302 to cost. Just a shame.

 

... good points and I share a lot of the same sentiments. Some thoughts... The trucks get the H/Boss motor late this year/early next year. I'd expect most of the development will be writtin off against the trucks with only hi-po specific mods being against the mustang. I think the Modular motors will keep shipping for some time: GT500 thru MY'09(?), GT, Explorer, etc., but the H/Boss is going to have to pick up the heavy hi-po lifting in the stang. The LS motor int he new SS vette will be S/C'd (a TVS or a twin-screw) and GM has learned from Ford how to make camaro aftermarket friendly, so I expect we'll see the 400HP LS get decompressed and blown along the way to make it easy to kick-up. The LS7 is expensive and will not likely be a volume motor in the camaro, imo, tho GM willnot be able to resist a SE variant with 500+HP for the NA crowd, I think.

 

I agree Saleen has the capability to do the Boss for ford but if they did it would be more expensive than the PJ -- just another level of mark-up. SA is cranking out t least 60 S-GTs a day, 4 days a week but, as you noted, is doing it essentially with Ford/FRP parts swaps. Shelby is also doing the (+/-450HP) Shelby GT/SC (Son of GT just got his). Is essentially a Shelby CS8 (uses the CS6's Vortech) and comes with a full warranty built on an alloy GT motor, but it's not NA.

 

I guess I don't see Ford extending their investment in the alloy modular since the parts-bin pieces are not the right 'match' (Cobra R intake has volumes for a 5.4 4V, but Ford presently has no 4V production alloy capacity and the old Cobra alloy blocks don't have adequate cooling). There are companies making 5.0 strokers (like the PJ) for the alloy 3V and there are companies modding the 4V Ford GT block for wet-sump and water mods, etc but, again, not Ford. The problem, as I see it, is the expense that would be required to revamp the 4V alloy mod for hi-po NA service (400HP and above). I think we'll see Ford take that 'dead-ended' investment and put it to the H/Boss mods needed for the mustang -- the development pieces for the H/Boss beyond the truck program base.

 

I suspect that's the delay we're seeing. Ford presently has no production alloy motor that can go up against the LS family in the upcoming wars, hence diverting further modular development to the H/Boss program for the stang -- all still speculation, for sure. I also suspect the GT500 motor and it's spin-off (KR, SS, Mach[?], ?) variants are the end of the hi-po modular lineup for iron, and a slightly kicked-up 3V alloy for the GT will continue to run for some time (maybe 350HP on the 'refresh? ...dunno). After that, it will be gap-fillers in the trucks as the H/Boss picks up the trucks and the hi-po pony cars.

 

I'd be happy to see a 400+ modular 4V alloy Boss (and then a H/Boss Boss 42x) but I think the alloy 4V mod Boss isn't going to happen. A creadible 400HP 3V alloy Boss is certainly doable, but also requires some invention or farming it out and I think there's little interest in ford of doing that -- sure hope I'm wrong tho ...the Boss Mustang is too much Brand heritage to not do a small Boss and big Bos, imo ...just, sadly, don't think we'll EVER see an oversquare alloy 4V mod Boss.

[Alloy Dave]

... good points and I share a lot of the same sentiments. Some thoughts... The trucks get the H/Boss motor late this year/early next year. I'd expect most of the development will be writtin off against the trucks with only hi-po specific mods being against the mustang. I think the Modular motors will keep shipping for some time: GT500 thru MY'09(?), GT, Explorer, etc., but the H/Boss is going to have to pick up the heavy hi-po lifting in the stang. The LS motor int he new SS vette will be S/C'd (a TVS or a twin-screw) and GM has learned from Ford how to make camaro aftermarket friendly, so I expect we'll see the 400HP LS get decompressed and blown along the way to make it easy to kick-up. The LS7 is expensive and will not likely be a volume motor in the camaro, imo, tho GM willnot be able to resist a SE variant with 500+HP for the NA crowd, I think.

 

I agree Saleen has the capability to do the Boss for ford but if they did it would be more expensive than the PJ -- just another level of mark-up. SA is cranking out t least 60 S-GTs a day, 4 days a week but, as you noted, is doing it essentially with Ford/FRP parts swaps. Shelby is also doing the (+/-450HP) Shelby GT/SC (Son of GT just got his). Is essentially a Shelby CS8 (uses the CS6's Vortech) and comes with a full warranty built on an alloy GT motor, but it's not NA.

 

I guess I don't see Ford extending their investment in the alloy modular since the parts-bin pieces are not the right 'match' (Cobra R intake has volumes for a 5.4 4V, but Ford presently has no 4V production alloy capacity and the old Cobra alloy blocks don't have adequate cooling). There are companies making 5.0 strokers (like the PJ) for the alloy 3V and there are companies modding the 4V Ford GT block for wet-sump and water mods, etc but, again, not Ford. The problem, as I see it, is the expense that would be required to revamp the 4V alloy mod for hi-po NA service (400HP and above). I think we'll see Ford take that 'dead-ended' investment and put it to the H/Boss mods needed for the mustang -- the development pieces for the H/Boss beyond the truck program base.

 

I suspect that's the delay we're seeing. Ford presently has no production alloy motor that can go up against the LS family in the upcoming wars, hence diverting further modular development to the H/Boss program for the stang -- all still speculation, for sure. I also suspect the GT500 motor and it's spin-off (KR, SS, Mach[?], ?) variants are the end of the hi-po modular lineup for iron, and a slightly kicked-up 3V alloy for the GT will continue to run for some time (maybe 350HP on the 'refresh? ...dunno). After that, it will be gap-fillers in the trucks as the H/Boss picks up the trucks and the hi-po pony cars.

 

I'd be happy to see a 400+ modular 4V alloy Boss (and then a H/Boss Boss 42x) but I think the alloy 4V mod Boss isn't going to happen. A creadible 400HP 3V alloy Boss is certainly doable, but also requires some invention or farming it out and I think there's little interest in ford of doing that -- sure hope I'm wrong tho ...the Boss Mustang is too much Brand heritage to not do a small Boss and big Bos, imo ...just, sadly, don't think we'll EVER see an oversquare alloy 4V mod Boss.

I don't know how you guys know all this, but it's awesome that you do. I guess spending years of following Ford and the Mustang performance program has paid off in your knowledge. I'm picking up tiny pieces as I go...but I'll never get to the level of understanding each of you has on this subject. Thanks for sharing...even if I only follow 50% of it.

 

Dave

[1970boss302]

I don't know how you guys know all this, but it's awesome that you do. I guess spending years of following Ford and the Mustang performance program has paid off in your knowledge. I'm picking up tiny pieces as I go...but I'll never get to the level of understanding each of you has on this subject. Thanks for sharing...even if I only follow 50% of it.

 

Dave

 

 

 

So what do you think of the possible 2009 Boss Mustang ????

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see what Ford has up it's sleeve.

[RUFDRAFT]

If they build it - I will come.

 

Can you dig that?

[MustangFanatic]

I don't know how you guys know all this, but it's awesome that you do. I guess spending years of following Ford and the Mustang performance program has paid off in your knowledge. I'm picking up tiny pieces as I go...but I'll never get to the level of understanding each of you has on this subject. Thanks for sharing...even if I only follow 50% of it.

 

Dave

 

Yes, Dan is one smart guy - I've learned more from him than I have from many so-called experts - Dan is da man!!

[C0braFan]

CobraFan, you make the same argument many others including myself have made - if Saleen can build a Boss Mustang, why can't Ford? Saleen didn't do anything earth shattering, just massaged a good design and made it better. Saleen did what any company would do, they identified an unfulfilled need in the market and developed a product to fill that need.

 

 

Did you guys catch the article in the current issue of 5.0 that showed the build up of a Saleen PJ engine? It's a great article with detailed photos of how Saleen engineers upgrade a 3-valve to build a PJ, with nearly every step fully explained. The tolerances they followed in the engine build and the blueprinting is highly detailed work. 350 cfm heads! Ported intake! I'm not a subscriber but the PJ article alone was worth the five bucks.

[68fastback]

Well, if I was really smart I'd be rich!

 

...thanks, Steve, I genuinely appreciate that.

 

Businesses have personalities just like people ...and they do what positions them best in the market. That's a function of the market itself, how they SEE the market, who they are, who they THINK they are, and the pieces and funding necessary to get to where they feel they need to be. Their actions are often a function of what best fits within those constraints.

 

It's fun to try to decipher the puzzle and speculate on the most plausable outcome. But, ultimately

[MustangFanatic]

Did you guys catch the article in the current issue of 5.0 that showed the build up of a Saleen PJ engine? It's a great article with detailed photos of how Saleen engineers upgrade a 3-valve to build a PJ, with nearly every step fully explained. The tolerances they followed in the engine build and the blueprinting is highly detailed work. 350 cfm heads! Ported intake! I'm not a subscriber but the PJ article alone was worth the five bucks.

 

5.0 is the only magazine I still subscribe to and that was an excellent article on the PJ Saleen engine, shows the level they will go to achieve the necessary performance . Great article and kudos to Saleen for getting the PJ right!!

[1970boss302]

It would be a BIG boost for Ford to come out with a Boss in 2009.

40th anniversary addition. Take the Mustang GT and drop in the

Shleby 500 motor with limited options. Match the 1970 Boss strips

and you would have a winner that would sell like hot cakes.

Are you listening FORD time to make money again in the USA

 

 

I got a call laast week from my Ford Dealer . They wanted to know what I wanted on my

 

2008 Shelby GT500 order. I told them interior upgrade and white with blue strips.

 

Still waiting for more news on the Boss ??

[SpeedRacer]

Ford is struggling financially, the bankers are running the company, Congress is trying to change (further restrict) emissions standards. So, do you actually think Ford will build the Boss? I hope so; however, I don't think so....

 

Stuart

[68fastback]

I think they will ...just not likely in volume because they'll have to keep within CAFE and coming CO2 specs, as well as traditional emissions that tighten again in '08, if I recall. But my gut (no inside info) is that Ford will not overlook the Boss unless most all high performance cars in the auto industry become history for some reason -- the legacy is just too strong, imo.

 

I understand the 'banker' concern -- lived thru one of those protracted and ugly cycles at a Fortune 10 company where I was a strategic planner tring to turn the Titanic back into the wind ...it isn't pretty but it also isn't easy, but it certainly isn't all bad. Let me explain...

 

If the balance sheet is what drives your business, you're doomed to failure (and Jacques Nasser did a great job of driving Ford into the ground by maximizing profits AT THE EXPENSE OF keeping new technology vital and flowing. That's not at all where Ford is now, imo. I believe they have genuinely seen the light and are focussed on it -- it just takes a L_O_N_G time to turn the big ship around but that's now happening at Ford, imo. There's no magic -- it only changes one painfully good decision at a time and those decisions can take years to yield their benefits to the bottom line (as opposed to how it was where botom-line THIS YEAR was all that mattered).

 

It's also ironic that to generate more profit you have drive into the red deeper as you borrow for the investment that only new product can yield. And that's exactly what Ford has done and is doing ...it takes time.... a lot of time.

 

However, Ford has shown, I believe, that they have learned how to use the 'banker' as a TOOL and not as a business CONTROL or throttle as Nasser did, imo. The distinction is huge. The Fuson and Edge platforms are examples. They took big investment but Ford has now gone from #7 in quality to #4 worldwide in the past couple of years. They have gone from only a couple of Top-3 quality-ranked cars to 14 in the last couple years. They've still got a long way to go for sure, but I think they're close to or just at the bottom-point (where the widening I/E gap is corraled, turns, and starts to narrow) on the way to profitability -- tho it will take years yet to reach that crossover (Ford says '09 -- we'll see).

 

I have no inside information, but it apears to me that Mustang is being permited to reinvest some of it's very real profits back into Mustang, i.e. instead of sucking them to the bottom line as had been done back several years ago under, yep, JN again. So I actually expect to see Mustang investment loosen a bit more in the near future. And this makes sense... if Mustang is outperforming other areas of the company (and it is), it's smart to reinvest and lever that success further. But with that surely comes the resposibility to perform financially and hit all the financial targets -- and that's a good thing, imo, as long it's an investment-based plan as opposed to a financial-control plan (it's not, imo).

 

I actually think Ford is solidly on the on-ramp to recovery, but full cruise could take a decade or more to achieve if they're successful, even if N.A. profitibility is in sight for 2009 or thereabouts. And they will have to do it in the face of the stiffest competition to date. I think they can do it. I think they ARE doing it. Only time will tell, but the nums I've seen are starting to trend they way they should ...just a long way to go yet.

[C0braFan]

I think they will ...just not likely in volume because they'll have to keep within CAFE and coming CO2 specs, as well as traditional emissions that tighten again in '08, if I recall. But my gut (no inside info) is that Ford will not overlook the Boss unless most all high performance cars in the auto industry become history for some reason -- the legacy is just too strong, imo.

 

 

Current issue of Motor Trend (with the Ford Interceptor on the front cover) speculated on Ford's future, claiming their belief that Ford will work even more closely with the aftermarket shops like Saleen, Roush, and Shelby, to produce their high-end performance Mustangs in order to stay under the CAFE limitation and to help fend off extraneous costs assocated with niche vehicles. This doesn't sound like such a bad idea IMO, because it's already a proven strategy with huge demand for the Shelby GT and Saleen PJ.

 

Imagine cars like the GT500 being entirely moved off the assembly line and over to Shelby for the entire job. Although S-A seems to be only capable of making cosmetic improvements to cars, we could expect to see an "official" Boss produced by Saleen and sold at Ford Dealerships. I wouldn't mind. I think to preserve ford's future, we have to expect some changes like this. 1) It would cost Ford nothing to produce high-performance modified vehicles. 2) Ford would enjoy the benefit those vehicles bring to the brand name. 3) Roush, Saleen, and Shelby are potent brands anyway so no legitimacy is lost.

[RUFDRAFT]

I think they will ...just not likely in volume because they'll have to keep within CAFE and coming CO2 specs, as well as traditional emissions that tighten again in '08, if I recall. But my gut (no inside info) is that Ford will not overlook the Boss unless most all high performance cars in the auto industry become history for some reason -- the legacy is just too strong, imo.

 

I understand the 'banker' concern -- lived thru one of those protracted and ugly cycles at a Fortune 10 company where I was a strategic planner tring to turn the Titanic back into the wind ...it isn't pretty but it also isn't easy, but it certainly isn't all bad. Let me explain...

 

If the balance sheet is what drives your business, you're doomed to failure (and Jacques Nasser did a great job of driving Ford into the ground by maximizing profits AT THE EXPENSE OF keeping new technology vital and flowing. That's not at all where Ford is now, imo. I believe they have genuinely seen the light and are focussed on it -- it just takes a L_O_N_G time to turn the big ship around but that's now happening at Ford, imo. There's no magic -- it only changes one painfully good decision at a time and those decisions can take years to yield their benefits to the bottom line (as opposed to how it was where botom-line THIS YEAR was all that mattered).

 

It's also ironic that to generate more profit you have drive into the red deeper as you borrow for the investment that only new product can yield. And that's exactly what Ford has done and is doing ...it takes time.... a lot of time.

 

However, Ford has shown, I believe, that they have learned how to use the 'banker' as a TOOL and not as a business CONTROL or throttle as Nasser did, imo. The distinction is huge. The Fuson and Edge platforms are examples. They took big investment but Ford has now gone from #7 in quality to #4 worldwide in the past couple of years. They have gone from only a couple of Top-3 quality-ranked cars to 14 in the last couple years. They've still got a long way to go for sure, but I think they're close to or just at the bottom-point (where the widening I/E gap is corraled, turns, and starts to narrow) on the way to profitability -- tho it will take years yet to reach that crossover (Ford says '09 -- we'll see).

 

I have no inside information, but it apears to me that Mustang is being permited to reinvest some of it's very real profits back into Mustang, i.e. instead of sucking them to the bottom line as had been done back several years ago under, yep, JN again. So I actually expect to see Mustang investment loosen a bit more in the near future. And this makes sense... if Mustang is outperforming other areas of the company (and it is), it's smart to reinvest and lever that success further. But with that surely comes the resposibility to perform financially and hit all the financial targets -- and that's a good thing, imo, as long it's an investment-based plan as opposed to a financial-control plan (it's not, imo).

 

I actually think Ford is solidly on the on-ramp to recovery, but full cruise could take a decade or more to achieve if they're successful, even if N.A. profitibility is in sight for 2009 or thereabouts. And they will have to do it in the face of the stiffest competition to date. I think they can do it. I think they ARE doing it. Only time will tell, but the nums I've seen are starting to trend they way they should ...just a long way to go yet.

 

Dan - your level of articulation is nothing short of spectacular. Are you Sure you haven't got a storage building full of Mustangs?

 

In your service,

 

Ruf

[mad103]

Current issue of Motor Trend (with the Ford Interceptor on the front cover) speculated on Ford's future, claiming their belief that Ford will work even more closely with the aftermarket shops like Saleen, Roush, and Shelby, to produce their high-end performance Mustangs in order to stay under the CAFE limitation and to help fend off extraneous costs assocated with niche vehicles. This doesn't sound like such a bad idea IMO, because it's already a proven strategy with huge demand for the Shelby GT and Saleen PJ.

 

Imagine cars like the GT500 being entirely moved off the assembly line and over to Shelby for the entire job. Although S-A seems to be only capable of making cosmetic improvements to cars, we could expect to see an "official" Boss produced by Saleen and sold at Ford Dealerships. I wouldn't mind. I think to preserve ford's future, we have to expect some changes like this. 1) It would cost Ford nothing to produce high-performance modified vehicles. 2) Ford would enjoy the benefit those vehicles bring to the brand name. 3) Roush, Saleen, and Shelby are potent brands anyway so no legitimacy is lost.

 

 

I think that is a great approach that Ford is taking. But from what I have read and researched, some of these companies are already, in a way, pulling away from Ford....Saleen and Roush. At first, there was the rumour that Saleen was now going to work with GM, it might be true, after the production of the Bumble Bee Camaro. If this is the case, Ford is losing very very powerful and beneficial partners. I know someone that is a personal friend of Mr. Saleen and he says that it is just a rumour. Regardless, if Ford does intend to use these partners, and I think they should (Saleen making the official BOSS would be a great idea), they must find a way to retain them and keep them from drifting off to other companies. The new Camaro and Challenger are very tempting cars to modify in a Saleen/Roush kind of way, not that I am AT ALL for it, but it is true idea and money wise. I think Shelby is pretty secure with Ford though. So we are safe with them.

 

M2C

 

Alex

[68fastback]

Current issue of Motor Trend (with the Ford Interceptor on the front cover) speculated on Ford's future, claiming their belief that Ford will work even more closely with the aftermarket shops like Saleen, Roush, and Shelby, to produce their high-end performance Mustangs in order to stay under the CAFE limitation and to help fend off extraneous costs assocated with niche vehicles. This doesn't sound like such a bad idea IMO, because it's already a proven strategy with huge demand for the Shelby GT and Saleen PJ.

 

Imagine cars like the GT500 being entirely moved off the assembly line and over to Shelby for the entire job. Although S-A seems to be only capable of making cosmetic improvements to cars, we could expect to see an "official" Boss produced by Saleen and sold at Ford Dealerships. I wouldn't mind. I think to preserve ford's future, we have to expect some changes like this. 1) It would cost Ford nothing to produce high-performance modified vehicles. 2) Ford would enjoy the benefit those vehicles bring to the brand name. 3) Roush, Saleen, and Shelby are potent brands anyway so no legitimacy is lost.

 

I also think this can be a good approach but there are some downsides:

 

I don't think labor (unions) will ever permit full builds in shops like Shelby/Saleen/etc unless the volumes are very low and are not a good fit with existing union operations (e.g. Ford GT).

 

When a car is pre-built on a manufacturers line and then re-built by the aftermarket, the price tends to excallate (unless the mods are fairly modest (S-GT) vsersus something like the SS.

 

My hope is that the H/Boss motor with VVT/VCT/DI/DoD will be clean enough to permit substantial volumes, but whether and when we may see that in the Boss is anyone's guess.

 

Dan

[RUFDRAFT]

Just my very humble 2c here.

 

Aftermarket tuners = $$$$$.

 

I want a Ford produced Boss - or Mach1 - or whatever. Ford's building the "Shelby 500" - Ford can build a Boss.

 

Price a PJ or Roush or Saleen recently?

 

These aren't Benz's - they're Mustangs.

 

Aftermarket tuners will price the cars above the reach of the majority of Mustang owners.

[mad103]

Just my very humble 2c here.

 

Aftermarket tuners = $$$$$.

 

I want a Ford produced Boss - or Mach1 - or whatever. Ford's building the "Shelby 500" - Ford can build a Boss.

 

Price a PJ or Roush or Saleen recently?

 

These aren't Benz's - they're Mustangs.

 

Aftermarket tuners will price the cars above the reach of the majority of Mustang owners.

 

 

Very true. Pricey it is. I do not think they should do it like they are doing the KR and SS with Shelby. I am more on the lines of sharing of tech and ideas. Kind of like the Ford GT. Unless I was told wrong, did Saleen not put in a few cents in the development of that car?

 

ALex

[68fastback]

I think that is a great approach that Ford is taking. But from what I have read and researched, some of these companies are already, in a way, pulling away from Ford....Saleen and Roush. At first, there was the rumour that Saleen was now going to work with GM, it might be true, after the production of the Bumble Bee Camaro. If this is the case, Ford is losing very very powerful and beneficial partners. I know someone that is a personal friend of Mr. Saleen and he says that it is just a rumour. Regardless, if Ford does intend to use these partners, and I think they should (Saleen making the official BOSS would be a great idea), they must find a way to retain them and keep them from drifting off to other companies. The new Camaro and Challenger are very tempting cars to modify in a Saleen/Roush kind of way, not that I am AT ALL for it, but it is true idea and money wise. I think Shelby is pretty secure with Ford though. So we are safe with them.

 

M2C

 

Alex

 

I think that's the draw... i.e. I don't think you'll see Saleen and Roush running away from the Ford camp as much as we'll likely see them embracing the new brand-x opportunities as well.

[68fastback]

Just my very humble 2c here.

 

Aftermarket tuners = $$$$$.

 

I want a Ford produced Boss - or Mach1 - or whatever. Ford's building the "Shelby 500" - Ford can build a Boss.

 

Price a PJ or Roush or Saleen recently?

 

These aren't Benz's - they're Mustangs.

 

Aftermarket tuners will price the cars above the reach of the majority of Mustang owners.

 

+1 Maybe Mustang will go to a new Ford assembly line at some point (for the 'refresh'?) and that might permit more flexibility in what can roll off the end? Dunno. Certainly, if brand-x an build 'em Ford can too -- especially since the H/Boss stands to be potentialy much cleaner than the LS or Hemi, imo.

[68fastback]

Very true. Pricey it is. I do not think they should do it like they are doing the KR and SS with Shelby. I am more on the lines of sharing of tech and ideas. Kind of like the Ford GT. Unless I was told wrong, did Saleen not put in a few cents in the development of that car?

 

ALex

 

I think you're right ...that Saleen did participate under contract (not sure exactly how), but I think the Ford GT was a fully Ford developed design that Saleen then did final assembly on under contract, but I could be wrong.

[68fastback]

Dan - your level of articulation is nothing short of spectacular. Are you Sure you haven't got a storage building full of Mustangs?

 

In your service,

 

Ruf

 

Thanks, probably just an unfortunate byproduct of many years of pitching 'radical' ideas to hard-nosed executives in a way that engenders some small acceptance of the remote possibility that the marketplace might actually be just slightly different than their view of it

;-)