Robert Kiser 3339 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Went to the Chicago Auto show today. Talked to Tom from Ford about the black box. To sum up the conversation, he described the black box as "a tattle tell system". It will be used as part of warranty claim investigations.which means? Does that mean a 2010 owner cant modify their car without fear of voiding the warranty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 which means? Does that mean a 2010 owner cant modify their car without fear of voiding the warranty? I think that's what he is saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light66 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Does anyone feel this will increase the desirability of pre-black box GT500's or does it not really matter because the buying public is becoming indifferent to our loss of personal freedoms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrycp Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 I'm going to regret writing this, but to play devil's advocate and for the sake of discussion… Will the Black Box end mods? I don't think so. If I want to mod, I will. I understand, however, just like with everything else I do, consequences may come with that. If I'm willing to take that risk or wait until warranty expires, then I'll mod till my hearts content…and FRPP mods, in most cases, do not void warranty, but check with your dealer, owners manual and FRPP before doing anything (that's my disclaimer) :jackinbox: From an OEM perspective, why would I want to be responsible for warranty repairs after my product has been modified? Go look at any owners manual you have for any product you have and see what it says regarding altering the product and warranty. Bet it says "void" in there somewhere. I work with software and know that as soon as we modify the code we no longer get support from the vendor. Why should cars be any different that any other product we buy? Has there ever been a study that shows how much warranty claims cost an OEM where those claims maybe should not have been paid because the product was modified? I suspect the cost to the OEM is in the millions. In the long run, we all end up paying for it. So why not protect myself, especially in this economy. Over the weekend I've read quite a bit on the black boxes that are in cars now. OEM's have been putting these in cars for years, but only recently has there been legislation requiring the OEM's to inform customers that the boxes are in the cars. The legislation is clear that the car owner is the owner of the data and that the data cannot be accessed without consent or a warrant. With accident investigations I'm sure either the police or insurance companies could get a warrant fairly easily. From the reading I've done, the only things the boxes record is the few seconds before and after an impact. To me that means they do not have that much storage, but wonder how an impact is determined (air bag deployed, or ???). It cannot record road conditions, driver conditions, traffic signals, etc. Sensors go bad, computers aren't perfect, etc. Some smart defense attorney can find lots of arguments I would think. But the box could be a good thing. Could get into an accident and the other drive claim you were speeding, the box could prove otherwise and save you. So maybe this box will make drivers more responsible while driving on public streets. Can anyone convince me why that's a bad thing? As a father of 4 year old and 3 year old gorgeous little girls I APPLAUD it!! I've shown them pics of our 2010 vert (and many, many other mustangs) that's on the way and they're very excited about it. I'm already preparing myself for 'princess driving' (when the girls are in the car) and 'who's your daddy driving' (z06 eatin', camaro eatin', challenger eatin', etc. … but responsibly, of course). Am I moding? Yes, probably so, but will be FRPP packs at the time of purchase, so no warranty worries for me. So, you know the black box is there. Manage the risk/reward that comes with it as you see fit. Is this a new syndrome...BBS (Black Box Syndrome)? …refer to 1st sentence of post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matyellott Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 "Can anyone convince me why that's a bad thing? As a father of 4 year old and 3 year old gorgeous little girls I APPLAUD it!!" Congrads on the family, someday i hope to have one. Here are the issues assosited with this and I am going on a limb just like you did. No one ever has an issue with these types of things until it slaps them in the face. Personal freedoms are being eroded in this country, trust me I am no hippe (former Marine) but it is happening. Here are a few examples I live in Colorado, Denver has a ban on "assulat" rifles (ar15's etc) but only certain ones for example I could buy an m1 with .308 round without any issues. On a personal note I was pulled over a few years ago in my old 2006 gt (vista blue with white shelby stripes and slp loud mouth exhaust, Cop said my car was too loud it was not, when i was pulled over I was given a full battery of DUI tests, I had one beer after work, BAM!! Dwai for a .03bac 10K in fines no drivers liscense for 3 months, and a whole host of other things, the way the law is changeing from a system that catches and enforces laws to one that is an essitinal part of the state revene stream is insane. I live in a town called Castle Rock, (look up Castle Rock vs Gonzalas to see the quality of our law enforcemet), the town pulls over more people for fineable offenses then any other city in the state, but also fail to keep us safe when we need them. Now I know many of you on the board will feel that "you should not go anywahere after you have had one dirnk" but is this realistic? How many of us have done the same thing? Sorry to be long winded but these things happen incrementally, we keep moving to something less and less like the America I knew as a kid (I am 30) and more twords... hell I don't know what. Between them cameras at intersections, the black boxes in our personal property which tell the world when we go 76mph, imminate domain laws, Our tax code which punishes people who are successful, the welfare state, etc, where does this end? The goverment is now considering a tax on people who drive a certain muber of miles a year, combin that with the gass guzzlar tax we all had to pay (still don't understand that one), and you can see whay so many of us are upset. We drive Mustangs for Christs sake, USA, apple pie, 4th of July, and ford Mustangs!!!! What has happened to our frontieer sprit, our rugged sense of freedom??? The question should not be "why does someone need to do something" but rather "why is the goverment trying to stop it?" Come on you telling me Carrol Shelby never went over the speed limit?? They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Ben Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light66 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 "Can anyone convince me why that's a bad thing? As a father of 4 year old and 3 year old gorgeous little girls I APPLAUD it!!" Congrads on the family, someday i hope to have one. Here are the issues assosited with this and I am going on a limb just like you did. No one ever has an issue with these types of things until it slaps them in the face. Personal freedoms are being eroded in this country, trust me I am no hippe (former Marine) but it is happening. Here are a few examples I live in Colorado, Denver has a ban on "assulat" rifles (ar15's etc) but only certain ones for example I could buy an m1 with .308 round without any issues. On a personal note I was pulled over a few years ago in my old 2006 gt (vista blue with white shelby stripes and slp loud mouth exhaust, Cop said my car was too loud it was not, when i was pulled over I was given a full battery of DUI tests, I had one beer after work, BAM!! Dwai for a .03bac 10K in fines no drivers liscense for 3 months, and a whole host of other things, the way the law is changeing from a system that catches and enforces laws to one that is an essitinal part of the state revene stream is insane. I live in a town called Castle Rock, (look up Castle Rock vs Gonzalas to see the quality of our law enforcemet), the town pulls over more people for fineable offenses then any other city in the state, but also fail to keep us safe when we need them. Now I know many of you on the board will feel that "you should not go anywahere after you have had one dirnk" but is this realistic? How many of us have done the same thing? Sorry to be long winded but these things happen incrementally, we keep moving to something less and less like the America I knew as a kid (I am 30) and more twords... hell I don't know what. Between them cameras at intersections, the black boxes in our personal property which tell the world when we go 76mph, imminate domain laws, Our tax code which punishes people who are successful, the welfare state, etc, where does this end? The goverment is now considering a tax on people who drive a certain muber of miles a year, combin that with the gass guzzlar tax we all had to pay (still don't understand that one), and you can see whay so many of us are upset. We drive Mustangs for Christs sake, USA, apple pie, 4th of July, and ford Mustangs!!!! What has happened to our frontieer sprit, our rugged sense of freedom??? The question should not be "why does someone need to do something" but rather "why is the goverment trying to stop it?" Come on you telling me Carrol Shelby never went over the speed limit?? They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Ben Franklin Great comments. I just sold our home in Highlands Ranch to move into new home in Castle Pines North. Your Castle Rock cop comments scare me. Did we make a mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matyellott Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Did you make a mistake? Not sure man that really depends on where you are in life, if you have kids and are a bit more domestic then the "rock" is a great place to live. However my wife and I bought our house and are no looking to move tro Denver as we both work in the Tech Center. Most of my frineds live in Denver now so we are driving 30 miles each way just to go out. I will say this the DUI checkpoints (which are actually unconstitutionl) are very strict in Douglas county, they can nab you for a DWAI (anything including only one beer) or a DUI .08 or higher, and slap you with heavy fines and probation $50 a month for a year (I am a 30 year old former Marine officer so this was the worst part for me), Alchol classes (one a week for 12 weeks as $40 a pop), a Madd victum panel ($50), renewal of you drivers liscense ($60) the payment to the court to do community service ($75) the the actual fine ($1,200), lawyer costs ($1,000), all for one beer. Starts to add up, and it shocks most people I tell, helaf don't believe me until i show them the police report. Point is they are after your money, Drunk drivers are a problem but guys who have a beer after work and drive are not, point is our cars make us targets, they see a Shelby and think "easy money". Just be careful, By the way what do you drive? In case I see you on 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun50 Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I'm going to regret writing this, but to play devil's advocate and for the sake of discussion… Will the Black Box end mods? I don't think so. If I want to mod, I will. I understand, however, just like with everything else I do, consequences may come with that. If I'm willing to take that risk or wait until warranty expires, then I'll mod till my hearts content…and FRPP mods, in most cases, do not void warranty, but check with your dealer, owners manual and FRPP before doing anything (that's my disclaimer) :jackinbox: From an OEM perspective, why would I want to be responsible for warranty repairs after my product has been modified? Go look at any owners manual you have for any product you have and see what it says regarding altering the product and warranty. Bet it says "void" in there somewhere. I work with software and know that as soon as we modify the code we no longer get support from the vendor. Why should cars be any different that any other product we buy? Has there ever been a study that shows how much warranty claims cost an OEM where those claims maybe should not have been paid because the product was modified? I suspect the cost to the OEM is in the millions. In the long run, we all end up paying for it. So why not protect myself, especially in this economy. Over the weekend I've read quite a bit on the black boxes that are in cars now. OEM's have been putting these in cars for years, but only recently has there been legislation requiring the OEM's to inform customers that the boxes are in the cars. The legislation is clear that the car owner is the owner of the data and that the data cannot be accessed without consent or a warrant. With accident investigations I'm sure either the police or insurance companies could get a warrant fairly easily. From the reading I've done, the only things the boxes record is the few seconds before and after an impact. To me that means they do not have that much storage, but wonder how an impact is determined (air bag deployed, or ???). It cannot record road conditions, driver conditions, traffic signals, etc. Sensors go bad, computers aren't perfect, etc. Some smart defense attorney can find lots of arguments I would think. But the box could be a good thing. Could get into an accident and the other drive claim you were speeding, the box could prove otherwise and save you. So maybe this box will make drivers more responsible while driving on public streets. Can anyone convince me why that's a bad thing? As a father of 4 year old and 3 year old gorgeous little girls I APPLAUD it!! I've shown them pics of our 2010 vert (and many, many other mustangs) that's on the way and they're very excited about it. I'm already preparing myself for 'princess driving' (when the girls are in the car) and 'who's your daddy driving' (z06 eatin', camaro eatin', challenger eatin', etc. … but responsibly, of course). Am I moding? Yes, probably so, but will be FRPP packs at the time of purchase, so no warranty worries for me. So, you know the black box is there. Manage the risk/reward that comes with it as you see fit. Is this a new syndrome...BBS (Black Box Syndrome)? …refer to 1st sentence of post Well even if no one else agrees with you I will. In what part of the Constitution does it give you the right to violate every law in the land as long as you don't get caught. For all the people that don't agree, all it takes is the shoe on the other foot to get you to see things different. If you were the victim of some knucklehead driving crazy and the only way to prove it is by the "CDR" from the other car you'd be begging the officer to pull it out and download it. And I know every manufacturer is different but I just downloaded a 2002 GMC Yukon a week ago and it does not show if you owner made any modifications to it. What it did show is 5 seconds before the airbag deployed. The fact he was doing 70 in a 50 zone and the throttle at 100% (punched to the floor). The driver claimed he was doing 55 and the crash was the fault of another car pulling out in front of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneTrickPony Posted June 16, 2009 Report Share Posted June 16, 2009 I'm not going to worry about the black box myself. Yes it does upset me about the privacy issues but I can understand how the manufactures want to protect their interests. If something on my car breaks and it nots modfied and I'm drivng it the way it was designed to perform then it should be repaired under warranty. All of us have watched several vids about how the GT500 performs at the track and how its the King of the Pony Hill. I haven't seen one video showing grandma going to the grocery store and how many bags she can stuff in the trunk. Performance cars are designed to be driven. Ford's commercials show the GT's burning rubber all over the place, let us enjoy our investment, if something breaks, fix it, or change your advertisements. Mind you, this doesn't mean I'm going to road race or drag race full time, but I might like to see how it performs a few times for myself. I'm not asking Ford to pay for a ticket if I do something stupid and get caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allan Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Were will it end. As adults as most of use are. Me churping my tires should no void waratey. Sorry about spelling. With all the computer controls on these cars should it matter how we drive them. And yes if you put so meeny mods on your car you should have to pay. Just my 2 cen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun50 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Ha! I knew it. I will be keeping my 07 and in the future I will buy a luxury sedan. Black box was the last straw for me. Ford has been installing EDR's in the Mustang since the 2001 model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Got any tech that lists the mustang specifically as having them since '01? Tob ON EDIT I found this link which shows it installed on '01-'07 models, but no listing for '08 or '09 models. Interesting. http://www.harristechnical.com/downloads/cdrlist.pdf MORE This post was brought to my attention. I do not believe anyone contacted us (Harris Technical Services) regarding an EDR in a 2008 Mustang recently. We do not sell or advertise seminars, software or hardware of any kind. We are accident reconstructionists serving attorneys and insurance companies. We do not sell any products. We do not have a contract, or any other business arrangement, with Bosch. Bosch does not, to my knowledge, recommend us over any other EDR service provider that has their CDR Tool equipment and software. The vehicle coverage list on our web site is the most up to date version available from Bosch. Bosch depends on the vehicle manufacturers to provide information to them. There has been a considerable lag time between the introduction of new vehicle models and the release of the required software and hardware to access EDR data in later model vehicles. As of 18 Aug 2008, Ford coverage extended to 2007 model vehicles including the Mustang. I can provide the data elements that this model is capable of recording but not the 2008 model. If a vehicle is NOT listed then the EDR data cannot be recovered using the Bosch equipment. If it is added to the list with a later version of software/hardware, then it may be downloaded once that release is available. Until then, it may be wise to remove and hold certain components from the vehicle for later data extraction. The cost to recover EDR data depends on the efforts and time required to include travel time and costs. However, EDR data alone is insufficient to analyze a crash as additional information is required to validate the EDR data points. We have a list of EDR data recovery service providers throughout North America you can contact directly. If you got a vague answer on EDRs from someone claiming to represent Harris Technical Services, please call my office at (772) 336-2279. http://allfordmustangs.com/forums/2005-tal...tml#post1137669 Information regarding your own state laws... http://www.harristechnical.com/cdr7.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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