SHELBYCS6 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 I have had my Novi-1200 installed for a couple of summers now and have about 5000 miles since the installation. I downsized the S/C pulley over the winter which I now find out voided my warranty but regardless this is where I now stand. Even since the original installation I have found the traditional S/C whistle getting progressively louder month over month but it would subside once it was warmed up and everyone including myself thought that was normal. Earlier in the summer I had pointed this out to DaSilva Racing (local S/C dealer) and was told just to listen for further change. The noise was getting worse, almost to a low growl and with the Dearborn show next week I decided to remove and inspect the unit as it was a big gamble to take the car out of town sounding like this. This morning I removed the unit and this is what I found. The front thrust bearing below the impeller is missing three balls which I assume are now in my oil pan as they were no where to be found but other than a slight rub which had developed between the impeller and the case the rest of the unit looks good. I'm going to check the impeller shaft for run-out to make sure it's straight so I'll know shortly. The idler assembly surprisingly uses two 6205-C3 off the shelf bearings but the impeller / drive side uses Vortex high speed angular thrust bearings 17 x 35 x 10 which I'm now going to replace with NSK (Abex7 / P3) bearings which are rated to 60,000 rpm + in an oil bath which are part # 7003CTRDULP3. These two little bearings are almost $400.00 for a matched set. I'm also replacing the two o-rings and CR-seal 25 x 40 x 7 with viton as the seal on the drive pulley side appears to be a cheap single lip buna seal. I'll get a few photos on re-assembly in case anyone here has a similar issue because there is no information on the web for these units and trying to get a live tech person on the phone at Paxton is impossible. ************************************************************** Just received a confirmation From a Paxton representative that they are experiencing bearing issues with these units. They will most likely be replacing my unit following Dearborn. I'll still post some photo's of the rebuild this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moabman Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 I have had my Novi-1200 installed for a couple of summers now and have about 5000 miles since the installation. I downsized the S/C pulley over the winter which I now find out voided my warranty but regardless this is where I now stand. Even since the original installation I have found the traditional S/C whistle getting progressively louder month over month but it would subside once it was warmed up and everyone including myself thought that was normal. Earlier in the summer I had pointed this out to DaSilva Racing (local S/C dealer) and was told just to listen for further change. The noise was getting worse, almost to a low growl and with the Dearborn show next week I decided to remove and inspect the unit as it was a big gamble to take the car out of town sounding like this. This morning I removed the unit and this is what I found. The front thrust bearing below the impeller is missing three balls which I assume are now in my oil pan as they were no where to be found but other than a slight rub which had developed between the impeller and the case the rest of the unit looks good. I'm going to check the impeller shaft for run-out to make sure it's straight so I'll know shortly. The idler assembly surprisingly uses two 6205-C3 off the shelf bearings but the impeller / drive side uses Vortex high speed angular thrust bearings 17 x 35 x 10 which I'm now going to replace with NSK (Abex7 / P3) bearings which are rated to 60,000 rpm + in an oil bath. These two little bearings are almost $400.00 for a matched set. I'm also replacing the two o-rings and CR-seal 25 x 40 x 7 with viton as the seal on the drive pulley side appears to be a cheap single lip buna seal. I'll get a few photos on re-assembly in case anyone here has a similar issue because there is no information on the web for these units and trying to get a live person on the phone at Paxton is impossible. Great information! Are you sure you had good oil circulation? Hearing those seal materials reminded me it's time to rebuild my scuba reulator :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedRacer Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 I have had my Novi-1200 installed for a couple of summers now and have about 5000 miles since the installation. I downsized the S/C pulley over the winter which I now find out voided my warranty but regardless this is where I now stand. Even since the original installation I have found the traditional S/C whistle getting progressively louder month over month but it would subside once it was warmed up and everyone including myself thought that was normal. Earlier in the summer I had pointed this out to DaSilva Racing (local S/C dealer) and was told just to listen for further change. The noise was getting worse, almost to a low growl and with the Dearborn show next week I decided to remove and inspect the unit as it was a big gamble to take the car out of town sounding like this. This morning I removed the unit and this is what I found. The front thrust bearing below the impeller is missing three balls which I assume are now in my oil pan as they were no where to be found but other than a slight rub which had developed between the impeller and the case the rest of the unit looks good. I'm going to check the impeller shaft for run-out to make sure it's straight so I'll know shortly. The idler assembly surprisingly uses two 6205-C3 off the shelf bearings but the impeller / drive side uses Vortex high speed angular thrust bearings 17 x 35 x 10 which I'm now going to replace with NSK (Abex7 / P3) bearings which are rated to 60,000 rpm + in an oil bath which are part # 7003CTRDULP3. These two little bearings are almost $400.00 for a matched set. I'm also replacing the two o-rings and CR-seal 25 x 40 x 7 with viton as the seal on the drive pulley side appears to be a cheap single lip buna seal. I'll get a few photos on re-assembly in case anyone here has a similar issue because there is no information on the web for these units and trying to get a live tech person on the phone at Paxton is impossible. ************************************************************** Just received a confirmation From a Paxton representative that they are experiencing bearing issues with these units. They will most likely be replacing my unit following Dearborn. I'll still post some photo's of the rebuild this weekend. ShelbyCS6, Current ball bearing designs and materials are meeting their technical limits. i.e., speed, temp, debris environment, etc. We were working with a TC Company on a new design that uses aerospace technology. Super alloy rings & carbonitrided balls. We couldn't get the things to fail; however, since the auto industry is hurting so bad, they declined and went back with the old technology. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHELBYCS6 Posted September 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 ShelbyCS6, Current ball bearing designs and materials are meeting their technical limits. i.e., speed, temp, debris environment, etc. We were working with a TC Company on a new design that uses aerospace technology. Super alloy rings & carbonitrided balls. We couldn't get the things to fail; however, since the auto industry is hurting so bad, they declined and went back with the old technology. Stuart Hi Stuart....do you work for Paxton or a bearing manufacturer ?? The bearings that are in my Novi 1200 have an inner race, outer race and poly cage but they don't have an outer retaining edge on one side...sort of a uni-directional axial thrust bearing. The ones I'm installing are a far superior design that could most likely operate in the 80,000 rpm range which would greatly exceed the requirement. They have had superchargers for many years without experiencing this type of premature bearing failure. I think it's just one of those situations where the component selected just doesn't suit the requirement and the 1200 series is relatively new to the market. Unless it is a severe race application with extreme boost, high end matched sets of super precision bearings should be more than adequate for any supercharger application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moabman Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 What kind of oil do you run? 80,000 RPM sounds like turbine oil territory - something like 0-20w synthetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHELBYCS6 Posted September 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 What kind of oil do you run? 80,000 RPM sounds like turbine oil territory - something like 0-20w synthetic. 80,000 rpm is just the potential, I doubt it would run near that fast. Paxton indicates straight OEM type engine oil is fine for their applications which sort of surprised me for the increased S/C speed but I have run full synthetic since the S/C was installed. The bearings I'm installing are overkill for this application but I don't want to take the chance of any further issues until we get this rectified permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedRacer Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 Hi Stuart....do you work for Paxton or a bearing manufacturer ?? The bearings that are in my Novi 1200 have an inner race, outer race and poly cage but they don't have an outer retaining edge on one side...sort of a uni-directional axial thrust bearing. The ones I'm installing are a far superior design that could most likely operate in the 80,000 rpm range which would greatly exceed the requirement. They have had superchargers for many years without experiencing this type of premature bearing failure. I think it's just one of those situations where the component selected just doesn't suit the requirement and the 1200 series is relatively new to the market. Unless it is a severe race application with extreme boost, high end matched sets of super precision bearings should be more than adequate for any supercharger application. CS6, I work for The Timken Company, 3rd Largest Bearing manufacturer in the world ($5.5B). You're right, for your application the bearing should be fine. Probably had a material failure--an inclusion that propagated a spall. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHELBYCS6 Posted September 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 CS6, I work for The Timken Company, 3rd Largest Bearing manufacturer in the world ($5.5B). You're right, for your application the bearing should be fine. Probably had a material failure--an inclusion that propagated a spall. Stuart I figured it was one or the other with the metallurgical definitions for nitrate applications... FYI....I contribute about $60,000 + to your bottom line annually.....I don't do off-shore where bearings are concerned.... I also utilize a good volume of SKF, NSK, Torrington etc. Bearings are the life of Hydraulic units and we change them on every single repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHELBYGT698 Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 I figured it was one or the other with the metallurgical definitions for nitrate applications... FYI....I contribute about $60,000 + to your bottom line annually.....I don't do off-shore where bearings are concerned.... I also utilize a good volume of SKF, NSK, Torrington etc. Bearings are the life of Hydraulic units and we change them on every single repair. CR/SKF bearings are normally made in India, isn't it? Timken & NTN/BOWER are the only bigger companies I know that have their bearings made in the USA Correct me if I'm wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedRacer Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 I figured it was one or the other with the metallurgical definitions for nitrate applications... FYI....I contribute about $60,000 + to your bottom line annually.....I don't do off-shore where bearings are concerned.... I also utilize a good volume of SKF, NSK, Torrington etc. Bearings are the life of Hydraulic units and we change them on every single repair. CS6, Thanks for the business! :happy feet: We acquired Torrington in 2003. SKF & NTN Thanks again. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedRacer Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 CR/SKF bearings are normally made in India, isn't it? Timken & NTN/BOWER are the only bigger companies I know that have their bearings made in the USACorrect me if I'm wrong GT698, The Timken Company is the last large USA Bearing Company. We have many plants in the USA; however, so do all of our competitors (NSK, NTN, SKF & FAG). However, if you buy Timken your more likely to get a USA made part. Keep buying our bearings, we need you! :happy feet: Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHELBYGUY Posted September 11, 2008 Report Share Posted September 11, 2008 I have had my Novi-1200 installed for a couple of summers now and have about 5000 miles since the installation. I downsized the S/C pulley over the winter which I now find out voided my warranty but regardless this is where I now stand. Even since the original installation I have found the traditional S/C whistle getting progressively louder month over month but it would subside once it was warmed up and everyone including myself thought that was normal. Earlier in the summer I had pointed this out to DaSilva Racing (local S/C dealer) and was told just to listen for further change. The noise was getting worse, almost to a low growl and with the Dearborn show next week I decided to remove and inspect the unit as it was a big gamble to take the car out of town sounding like this. This morning I removed the unit and this is what I found. The front thrust bearing below the impeller is missing three balls which I assume are now in my oil pan as they were no where to be found but other than a slight rub which had developed between the impeller and the case the rest of the unit looks good. I'm going to check the impeller shaft for run-out to make sure it's straight so I'll know shortly. The idler assembly surprisingly uses two 6205-C3 off the shelf bearings but the impeller / drive side uses Vortex high speed angular thrust bearings 17 x 35 x 10 which I'm now going to replace with NSK (Abex7 / P3) bearings which are rated to 60,000 rpm + in an oil bath which are part # 7003CTRDULP3. These two little bearings are almost $400.00 for a matched set. I'm also replacing the two o-rings and CR-seal 25 x 40 x 7 with viton as the seal on the drive pulley side appears to be a cheap single lip buna seal. I'll get a few photos on re-assembly in case anyone here has a similar issue because there is no information on the web for these units and trying to get a live tech person on the phone at Paxton is impossible. ************************************************************** Just received a confirmation From a Paxton representative that they are experiencing bearing issues with these units. They will most likely be replacing my unit following Dearborn. I'll still post some photo's of the rebuild this weekend. Did you talk to Paxton They maybe hard to get in touch with but they spend time with you (that why hard to get in touch with) Even that you voided your warrenty I would give them a call the company is very helpful and did have a limited issue with some bearings. shelbyguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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