Traction Control

[mrdoc442]

Howdy from the Great Northwest.

 

This is my first post on this Forum. I belong to several other Forums. My activity tends to come and go at times, as I have a lot of varied automotive interests, and endeavor to make my posts and new topics worthwhile and meaningful.

 

I have pretty much been a GM guy most of my life, Pontiacs, Chevrolets and lastly Oldsmobiles, and have been around muscle cars/NHRA drag racing for 40+ years. The only exception was Ford trucks, which I have had more than I can count until I had the opportunity to purchase a pristine used GMC Sierra Dually to tow my 1971 Olds Cutlass 442 Super Gas drag car. Until 2007 I had never owned a Ford car or a Mustang.

 

That all changed when the 2007 Shelby GT500's arrived. I knew they were coming, but didn't really get too excited until they started arriving. That made it interesting when I decided to try to acquire one. I called Ford dealerships all over the U.S., and was ridiculed, laughed at, discouraged, ad nausea. Seems a person pretty much needed to have put $10K down about 12 months early to even be in the running for the 2007 GT500's. I had about given up, when I got a call from a little town where I grew up, about 25 miles from where I now live. It was the first dealership I contacted, but the GT500 they were getting was already purchased to be raffled off for a charitable organization. Then they won a lottery of dealerships in the Northwest, and were chosen to get a second GT500. The second GT500 was spoken for unfortunately. Then I got a call, and the salesman asked me if I was still interested in the second GT500, as the person who had spoken for it had backed out. I went to the bank, did the financing, and several hours later put $10K down to hold the GT500 when it arrived. I took that as a sign, ending up getting one 25 miles from where I live, in a town of about 2500 people where I was born and raised, instead of having to travel somewhere across the country to get one.

 

Anyway, sorry for the digression, back to my topic. I am currently in the early process to schedule my GT500 for the 725 H/P S/Snake build. Have any of you folks that have had a chance to thrash your 600 H/P or 725 H/P S/Snakes experienced how well the traction control works, or does the immense power of the S/Snake just override it? A second question I'll throw in, is, how are the transmissions holding up with the added power? Once people figure out how to get maximum traction with the right combination of slicks and suspension, the six-speed & overall drive-train will really be put to the test. Any comments are welcome. I am primarily a drag racer, as I mentioned earlier, so rapid straight line acceleration would be of primary interest.

 

Thanks so much for any information you may have, and it's a pleasure to be on this Forum.

 

Doc

[Alexandros]

Doc,

Welcome to the site.....a bunch of good people here...enjoy....

[ingram4868]

Welcome to the site Doc. We have several really good tuners on this site. However, IMO if you are wanting to build serious horsepower the field narrows quickly. Evolution Performance is a site sponsor (link to their site is left of this screen).

 

Good luck in your quest and again welcome to the site

[08 ORANGE SS-725HP]

Doc: Welcome to the Forum. Your 9.90 Olds with electronics sounds like an awesome car. The 725 SS's are awesome cars. The Tremec TR6060 trans is a very strong unit internal wise with a factory dual disk cera-metallic clutch capable of handling the hp/tq that this car makes........and much beyond. The car comes with a balanced one piece 3.5" aluminum driveshaft to replace the factory 2 piece. I can't give any data on the traction control system as I always have mine off when driving as you would when drag racing. The one drivetrain weak link over time for drag racing is the factory 31 spline traction lock differential. The clutch pack and spider gears just can't handle the torque these cars generate on high boost with slicks over time. The SS package is basically set up for road racing/spirited street driving with the heavy duty sway bars and coil over Eibach Pro Street S suspension: not conducive to weight transfer required for drag racing. The car with drag radials (18" with the factory 18x9.5 wheels or the new Nitto 275x40x20 drag radials on the SS rims) should put you in the mid 11's when you learn how to launch the car and 1-2 gear change before you go WOT when the traction of the drag radials permits. IMOP, keep the SS stock and enjoy the car on the street/car shows/club racing events as it was intended without any mods and the car should maintain/increase in value over time. Just my 2cnts.

[mrdoc442]

Doc: Welcome to the Forum. Your 9.90 Olds with electronics sounds like an awesome car. The 725 SS's are awesome cars. The Tremec TR6060 trans is a very strong unit internal wise with a factory dual disk cera-metallic clutch capable of handling the hp/tq that this car makes........and much beyond. The car comes with a balanced one piece 3.5" aluminum driveshaft to replace the factory 2 piece. I can't give any data on the traction control system as I always have mine off when driving as you would when drag racing. The one drivetrain weak link over time for drag racing is the factory 31 spline traction lock differential. The clutch pack and spider gears just can't handle the torque these cars generate on high boost with slicks over time. The SS package is basically set up for road racing/spirited street driving with the heavy duty sway bars and coil over Eibach Pro Street S suspension: not conducive to weight transfer required for drag racing. The car with drag radials (18" with the factory 18x9.5 wheels or the new Nitto 275x40x20 drag radials on the SS rims) should put you in the mid 11's when you learn how to launch the car and 1-2 gear change before you go WOT when the traction of the drag radials permits. IMOP, keep the SS stock and enjoy the car on the street/car shows/club racing events as it was intended without any mods and the car should maintain/increase in value over time. Just my 2cnts.

 

Thank you all so much for the welcome aboard. I have found this Board to be a fine, well-designed Forum with a lot of fine enthusiasts.

 

Yep + 10 on everything you say. I raced many cars with 4-spds back in the day and it seemed like I was always breaking something. Once you start getting the traction to put the power on the pavement, then you start finding the weak spots in the drive-train. That's why 99% of the serious drag racers, including myself eventually went to automatic transmissions. The Turbo 400 in my drag car is pretty much bulletproof. I also have a Ford 9" rear-end w/MW 35 spline axles, in the car. Again, pretty much bulletproof. The car is very light also, (Chris Alston chassis/fiberglass one piece front end/lexan front and rear windshield, etc.), with my fat ass in it weighs just 2868#. The lighter the car the less breakage you have to contend with. I feel a potentially big issue with the Super Snake is that they are a heavy car with a lot of power. It is hard for me to accept that some of these new cars like the GT500 are as heavy or heavier than some of the old 60's/70's convertible's made with thick steel and hardly any plastic, lead sleds. A heavy car with a lot of power is a car just waiting to break something once you get traction. Something has got to give and eventually does. I have replaced more U-joints, driveshafts, spider gears, ring and pinions, axles, transmissions, clutches, in the old 4-spd muscle cars I raced than I would care to mention. The Super Snake compared to a 60's/70's muscle car is like comparing the Starship Enterprise to a stagecoach, and the S/S is heavy duty in many respects, yet many basic factors/concepts remain the same. For example, there are two basic ways to go faster, add power, or lose weight. Of course traction, weight transfer, tune, driver ability and many other factors all count.

 

I have seen some sage advice on this Forum, especially by Bud, (if I remember correctly), and one thing I'll wager that is often neglected is properly seasoning the ring and pinion. Especially in the Super Snake. The several fully warm-up /cool-down cycles can add greatly to the longevity of the gears. It's also a good idea to take it a little easy on the clutch until it is well seasoned as well.

 

As you mentioned, the GT500 axles and rear-end are of some concern when drag racing a powerful Super Snake. A clutch/manual transmission car puts such a shock to everything in the drive-train when drag racing, especially on the starting line, and to a lesser degree when shifting. The great thing about automatic transmission cars, is the suspension is preloaded, and you just take off. Not that there isn't a good jolt with an automatic equipped drag car, especially one equipped w/a trans-brake, but it's nothing like sidestepping the clutch on the starting line with manual transmission equipped drag-car with good traction, or power shifting at WOT down the track. I wrote a fairly lengthy article on speed/lift shifting versus power shifting techniques for manual transmission cars on another Forum. Just an aside, when I replaced the GM 12-bolt rear-end in my drag car w/the Ford 9", I noticed that the axles in the 12 bolt were twisted like a piece of licorice, the prelude to a potential catastrophic rear-end issue and resulting dance when flying down the track @ 130MPH. Dodged a bullet there. I have seen many cars lose axles while racing, over my racing career, and unless a racer is lucky enough to have it happen on the starting line, (which really makes the track operator and starting line folks as well as other racers happy-NOT), it generally gets pretty exciting/messy/ugly down-track.

 

I have posted some thoughts/experiences based from my many years of experience drag racing on some other Forums I am a member of, and possibly, if the need presents itself, as appropriate, I would be honored to share/transfer some of that expertise over here.

 

Well, I need a break. Thanks again for the welcome.

 

After a nap I felt rejuvenated, and added a few things.

 

Doc

[CoopersShelby]

Yes it does override the TC somewhat when pushing the car. Much more fun with TC off.

[twobjshelbys]

Howdy from the Great Northwest.

 

The only exception was Ford trucks, which I have had more than I can count until I had the opportunity to purchase a pristine used GMC Sierra Dually to tow my 1971 Olds Cutlass 442 Super Gas drag car. Until 2007 I had never owned a Ford car or a Mustang.

 

So you might have a similar to this:

 

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php...st&p=495834

 

Would you look at the above link and give your opinion of value?

[Michael Morris]

When I first got the 725HP SS I was driving it with the TC on. I wanted to get use to the power before I took it off. It seemed that I couldnt drive a manual shift! Everytime I change from second to third the car would go to hoping.

 

I realized that the TC had NO CONTROL when I was on throttle, but as soon as I left off to change gears end would take over and the car would almost fall on its face. I learned very quickly to drive without the TC on. The car runs better and I think you can tear the car up when the TC tries to LEAN up the engine to control spin.

 

 

I called KB about turning the TC off, but it was like $250 and thats alot when all I have to do is HIT the button!!!

 

 

michael morris

[mrdoc442]

So you might have a similar to this:

 

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php...st&p=495834

 

Would you look at the above link and give your opinion of value?

 

I had a pretty decent response written and got blown off the computer, so this is round two from memory.

 

Actually my 1971 442 is a dedicated race car now. No frills, i.e. interior etc. It has a race bucket seat, all aluminum flooring, 40" tubs, full Chris Alston chassis, lexan front and rear windshield etc. It is a tad bastardized as I could not pass up the opportunity to purchase the one piece fiberglass front end that was a once in a lifetime opportunity, available at a super deal price. However, it is painted to match a 1970 Cutlass Rallye 350. The rest of the car, all the exterior metal that is, is original 1970 442, except the rear bumper which is fiberglass. But since is a dedicated race car, who cares? One pass down the drag strip and the car will have some rock chips. I have the original hood and an after-market fiberglass hood, all Zeus'd for the car, and the metal front fenders, bumpers, and grill off the original 442 car, but I'll never put it back a original. I really need to get off my butt and try to sell some of that stuff, but apparently I'm in no hurry, as I have yet to do it.

 

There are some pictures of a couple of my current cars and former cars on Shelby Forums.com I don't generally choose to put my whole ball of wax on the net for the world to see, but as I said, there is some stuff on there, and a picture of my drag car. That is not me standing by it, it is the fellow I bought the chassis and front end from, who along with his dad, also helped with a lot of work on the car. They are just really nice folks and good friends.

 

As to your question, I do not hold myself up to be an expert on Oldsmobile's, though I have had quite a few, still have two, and do know a little about them. The car you have pictures of appears to be a W-30. The emblem is a little hard to read. If it is a genuine 1972 W-30 the price can vary so much, due to many factors, such as condition, originality or restored, 4-spd., convertible etc. A genuine 1972 W-30 could range from the high $20K and beyond. I have seen quite a few in the $30K range. For convertibles add about $10K. Of course the 1966/1967 W-30 cars are now in up the $100K range, especially the 1966 W-30 with the Tri-power. Regular 442's with the L-69 option, (Tri-carb, a dealer installed option - 2129 L-69's were buiilt in 1966) are very desireable also. I believe they only made 54 1966 W-40's and 502 1967 W-30's. Looking in the latest Hemmings shows a 1969 H/O ( I have one), listed for $39,999. The H/O cars were never really appreciated much either though they are finally starting to be worth a little. Hard to figure, as there were only 914 1969 H/O's made, and maybe 400/500 survived to 2008. They are really neat cars. There is a 1970 W-30 convertible automatic from a collection listed for $135K, and another 1970 W-30 convertible total nut and bolt restoration for $215K. I think they will never get what they are asking, just my opinion. A 1970 442 with a lot of the W-30 parts, hood, red inner fenders etc., probably not an original W-30 is listed at $59.9K. There is also a 1971 W-30 automatic, doesn't say coupe, but I'm sure it is, all matching numbers, good condition, 68K miles $29K. That would probably be similar to the one you are asking about, only a year older. The 1970 W-30s are probably the most sought after. The compression in the 1971/1972 W-30's engines dropped from 10:5:1 (in the 1970 W-30) to 8:5:1, and the H/P correspondingly from 370 down to 300. The torque also dropped. Part of the reason for the reductions in power is H/P and Torque were measured differently after 1970.

 

Anyway, as you can see, the W-30's are all over the place in price. You might want to take a look at Barret-Jackson on line, as there will no doubt be some W-30's of all years on there and you can see what people are willing to pay for them. After the article I saw in the August 2008 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines about Phantom Muscle Cars, it appears it is getting increasingly difficult to verify the authenticity of these cars. HMM feature's a 1968 Z/28 convertible that has pretty much all the right stuff, right down to the proper documentation (even aged to look original), yet it is a clone. Buyer/seller beware, especially if you do any business on line. The days of trust among gear-heads, Muscle Car enthusiasts, I fear is long gone. Sure seems like a lot of Muscle Cars are popping up all ove the place since their popularity blossomed courtesy of B/J and other auctions. No doubt many were stored, but some of the restorations might be a little suspect. Makes a guy wonder how so many seemed to have survived all of a sudden, when we really didn't see hardly any Muscle Cars for a fairly long span of time in the 1980's/1990's.

 

For some reason the Oldmobile Muscle Cars just never appreciated in value like the Chevelle SS396's/SS454's, the Pontiac GTO's, and other 1960's/1970's cars (especially the Shelby's !!). A shame really, as Oldsmobile's are good cars. No other engine has the sweet sound of an Oldsmobile, particularily a big block 455, and what a stump pulling torque monster they are. That whole deal with Oldsmobile closing was nothing but politics IMHO.

 

Well, I hope some of this helps.

 

Good luck.

 

Doc

[mrdoc442]

When I first got the 725HP SS I was driving it with the TC on. I wanted to get use to the power before I took it off. It seemed that I couldnt drive a manual shift! Everytime I change from second to third the car would go to hoping.

 

I realized that the TC had NO CONTROL when I was on throttle, but as soon as I left off to change gears end would take over and the car would almost fall on its face. I learned very quickly to drive without the TC on. The car runs better and I think you can tear the car up when the TC tries to LEAN up the engine to control spin.

 

 

I called KB about turning the TC off, but it was like $250 and thats alot when all I have to do is HIT the button!!!

 

 

michael morris

 

Thanks for your input Michael, and everyone, I appreciate it. I was wondering if bad things might happen with the T/C on and all that power. It (T/C) just wasn't designed for that. I believe T/C basically reduces power/torque by changing the timing/fuel and pulsing the ABS. With some T/C systems you can actually feel the accelerator pedal lift, kind of like cruise control. Probably not real good for rear brake longevity either.

 

Doc

[twobjshelbys]

I had a pretty decent response written and got blown off the computer, so this is round two from memory.

 

Actually my 1971 442 is a dedicated race car now. No frills, i.e. interior etc. It has a race bucket seat, all aluminum flooring, 40" tubs, full Chris Alston chassis, lexan front and rear windshield etc. It is a tad bastardized as I could not pass up the opportunity to purchase the one piece front end that was once in a lifetime available at a super deal price. It is painted to match a Rallye 350. But since is a dedicated race car, who cares? One pass down the drag strip and the car will have some rock chips. I have the original hood and an after-market fiberglass hood, all Zeus'd for the car, and the metal front fenders, bumpers, and grill off the original 442 car, but I'll never put it back a original. I really need to get off my butt and try to sell some of that stuff, but apparently I'm in no hurry, as I have yet to do it.

 

There are some pictures of a couple of my current cars and former cars on Shelby Forums.com I don't generally choose to put my whole ball of wax on the net for the world to see, but as I said, there is some stuff on there, and a picture of my drag car. That is not me standing by it, it is the fellow I bought the chassis and front end from, who along with his dad, also helped with a lot of work on the car. They are just really nice folks and good friends.

 

As to your question, I do not hold myself up to be an expert on Oldsmobile's, though I have had quite a few, still have two, and do know a little about them. The car you have pictures of appears to be a W-30. The emblem is a little hard to read. If it is a genuine 1972 W-30 the price can vary so much, due to many factors, such as condition, originality or restored, 4-spd., convertible etc. A genuine 1972 W-30 could range from the high $20K and beyond. I have seen quite a few in the $30K range. For convertibles add about $10K. Of course the 1966/1967 W-30 cars are now in up the $100K range, especially the 1966 W-30 with the Tri-power. Regular 442's with the L-69 option, (Tri-carb, a dealer installed option - 2129 L-69's were buiilt in 1966) are very desireable also. I believe they only made 54 1966 W-40's and 502 1967 W-30's. Looking in the latest Hemmings shows a 1969 H/O ( I have one), listed for $39,999. The H/O cars were never really appreciated much either though they are finally starting to be worth a little. Hard to figure, as there were only 914 1969 H/O's made, and maybe 400/500 survived to 2008. They are really neat cars. There is a 1970 W-30 convertible automatic from a collection listed for $135K, and another 1970 W-30 convertible total nut and bolt restoration for $215K. I think they will never get what they are asking, just my opinion. A 1970 442 with a lot of the W-30 parts, hood, red inner fenders etc., probably not an original W-30 is listed at $59.9K. There is also a 1971 W-30 automatic, doesn't say coupe, but I'm sure it is, all matching numbers, good condition, 68K miles $29K. That would probably be similar to the one you are asking about, only a year older. The 1970 W-30s are probably the most sought after. The compression in the 1971/1972 W-30's engines dropped from 10:5:1 (in the 1970 W-30) to 8:5:1, and the H/P correspondingly from 370 down to 300. The torque also dropped. Part of the reason for the reductions in power is H/P and Torque were measured differently after 1970.

 

Anyway, as you can see, the W-30's are all over the place in price. You might want to take a look at Barret-Jackson on line, as there will no doubt be some W-30's of all years on there and you can see what people are willing to pay for them. After the article I saw in the August 2008 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines about Phantom Muscle Cars, it appears it is getting increasingly difficult to verify the authenticity of these cars. HMM feature's a 1968 Z/28 convertible that has pretty much all the right stuff, right down to the proper documentation (even aged to look original), yet it is a clone. Buyer/seller beware, especially if you do any business on line. The days of trust among gear-heads, Muscle Car enthusiasts, I fear is long gone. Sure seems like a lot of Muscle Cars are popping up all ove the place since their popularity blossomed courtesy of B/J and other auctions. No doubt many were stored, but some of the restorations might be a little suspect. Makes a guy wonder how so many seemed to have survived all of a sudden, when we really didn't see hardly any Muscle Cars for a fairly long span of time in the 1980's/1990's.

 

For some reason the Oldmobile Muscle Cars just never appreciated in value like the Chevelle SS396's/SS454's, the Pontiac GTO's, and other 1960's/1970's cars (especially the Shelby's !!). A shame really, as Oldsmobile's are good cars. No other engine has the sweet sound of an Oldsmobile, particularily a big block 455, and what a stump pulling torque monster they are. That whole deal with Oldsmobile closing was nothing but politics IMHO.

 

Well, I hope some of this helps.

 

Good luck.

 

Doc

 

 

Thanks. Yes it is a W30. 455 with 4 speed. It's original - all numbers matching and never been restored or repainted. 85K miles. It has the original doc package, including the "protect o plate" and original owners warranty papers. The original spare tire is in the trunk (still has the rubber nubs). He thinks $40K, I'm thinking $25-$27K based on recent activity. Oh, it's in Vegas and has no air conditioning. The 8-track works though.

 

How I even got to see it was that our friend in Vegas said "aren't you close to Longmont". This car was sold in 1972 from our local dealer to a fellow in Cheyenne. The current owner is third.

[mrdoc442]

Thanks. Yes it is a W30. 455 with 4 speed. It's original - all numbers matching and never been restored or repainted. 85K miles. It has the original doc package, including the "protect o plate" and original owners warranty papers. The original spare tire is in the trunk (still has the rubber nubs). He thinks $40K, I'm thinking $25-$27K based on recent activity. Oh, it's in Vegas and has no air conditioning. The 8-track works though.

 

How I even got to see it was that our friend in Vegas said "aren't you close to Longmont". This car was sold in 1972 from our local dealer to a fellow in Cheyenne. The current owner is third.

 

One other thing I should have mentioned. A lot of the W-30's were raced or at the very least ,rode pretty hard. That being said, I would thoroughly look at the Engine - make sure it has good compresson/oil pressure, all the normal stuff - trouble is you cannot look inside the engine, and a lot of Oldsmobiles had engine oiling issues, check the transmission, clutch - rear-end etc. In other words for that price I would have a very good mechanic/transmission person go ever it with a fine tooth comb, and maybe try to track down and talk to all the owners. I will be surprised if he finds someone who will pay that much. If it hasn't been regularily driven, could be other issues as well. $40K is getting into the pristine convertible area, at least for a 1972, IMHO.

 

Doc

[twobjshelbys]

One other thing I should have mentioned. A lot of the W-30's were raced or at the very least ,rode pretty hard. That being said, I would thoroughly look at the Engine - make sure it has good compresson/oil pressure, all the normal stuff - trouble is you cannot look inside the engine, and a lot of Oldsmobiles had engine oiling issues, check the transmission, clutch - rear-end etc. In other words for that price I would have a very good mechanic/transmission person go ever it with a fine tooth comb, and maybe try to track down and talk to all the owners. I will be surprised if he finds someone who will pay that much. If it hasn't been regularily driven, could be other issues as well. $40K is getting into the pristine convertible area, at least for a 1972, IMHO.

 

Doc

 

I'm not going to buy it. My friend knows the guy that owns it, and he's been drooling over this car for a couple of years. He's a mechanic, so I think he is OK with the powertrain. He asked me to check around for what a reasonable price would be.

 

Thanks for the help!