Need more power

[slamarre]

Gents,

 

How could i reach 350 HP at the crank without voiding the warranty? First of all, is it possible? If yes how?

 

I have some ideas below but any other options would be appreciated.

 

- Ceramic Headers

- one piece lighter drive shaft

- Pulleys

 

I do not want to install a supercharger before 36K/3Y. Just want to be on the safe side...

[Son of GT]

Ford racing superchargers, if installed by a Ford dealer or an authorized mod shop, won't void your warranty, and it's really the best and easist way to gain that much H.P., actually more than that. My white car (pictured below) has 510 H.P. at the crank with a Paxton supercharger.

[HORSBYT]

I'm on the quest for the coveted 350hp mark myself. I have been in the 5.0 scene for quite some time and that was a challenging number to obtain without an SC. Ultimately, it went on and I hit 360 to the wheels....

 

If you're talking 350 at the crank it shouldn't be too hard. From what I can ascertain, I think pulleys, a better elbow and possibly a driveshaft will bump us up to about 20-30HP, that will include a little re-programming as well. I'm also looking into the Granatelli coil packs and i'm suspecting a conservative 10hp or so from those. Lastly, getting our cars to breath a little easier (exhale) is always helpful and a set of headers may assist there. Although, i'm thinking that maybe another 10HP should come from that as well. With all that I mentioned i'm guessing we'd be pretty close to 350-360 at the crank and maybe 330's-340ish to the wheels. Which, if you're going for something conservative isn't all that bad. I wished SAI would have done us all a favor and put us there to begin with. Putting together a car like the GT 500 and then dishing out a SGT with a cold air intake is hardly meeting us half way. The gears are nice, but I think 3.73's would have been better.

 

Elbow - $100

Pulleys - $250

Headers - $450

Driveshaft - $400

Coil Packs - $450

 

So for about $1500 we should be there.....

 

I'm going to start on mine probably within the next month. I'll post the progress. Just be sure to dyno yours BEFORE you do anything!

[hotrodbob]

I have done the pullies and elbow with a retune and have right at 290 at the rear with a mustang dyno results. So it could be more with a different dyno.

 

I have been looking at some new cams that do not require springs. One is a Ford cam and the other is Comp Cams. They say with out a tune you could get about 25-30 hp. More if you do a retune.

 

I think that you can get close with the cam's ,drive shaft, headers and pullies. Oh and a good retune after it is all done.

 

But not sure about the warranty issue.

[HORSBYT]

I've talked to my Mustang shop who's always worked on my cars about mod's vs. warranty. They say (and this is unverifiable) that mod's don't void your ENTIRE warranty only the component modified and any upstream/downstream components. Example would be a swapping a driveshaft. They COULD then also throw in any rear end troubles or transmission as voided. However, they couldn't (supposedly) void the warranty as it relates to engine, exhaust, etc...

 

However, considering the mod's we do just about every component is likely to be upstream/downstream in one way or another.

 

I'm a little cautious about the warranty too, but to be honest with you. Aside from a blown motor or tranny MOST repairs are fairly reasonable. And let's be honest, has ANYONE drove into a dealer, had a significant item fixed and replaced without leavng at least SOME money on the table?

 

I think it all comes down to finding a reputable dealer/mod shop who you TRUST, who you have VERIFIED knows what they're doing and is willing to back up any mistakes they might make. (we may see them as god's able to perform miraculous wonders under our hoods, but they still are human) DO YOUR HOMEWORK, ASK QUESTIONS, SEE IF ONE PLACE WILL TELL YOU THE SAME THING, TELL THE OTHER GUY WHAT THE OTHER GUY SAID, READ, READ, READ!!! And don't do it until you're comfortable!!!

[LuLu]

Carroll Shelby comments on HP, lifted from a recent article in Road and Track about the Terlingua Mustang...

 

"This horsepower race is a bunch of b---s---, but you have to keep up with the Germans. We have to make a certain number of high horsepower cars because some people want them — and you magazine journalists like to write about horsepower — but I figure it's about over. I hope it is. Supercars have never been my deal; we need to go back to affordable performance. I like lighter cars that are fun to drive. I've always loved pocket-rockets.

 

"Back when I was building the Shelby cars for Chrysler," he continued, "people said I was going to ruin my reputation by building smaller cars. Well, I don't give a s--- about my reputation; I just want to build cars that I like to drive. Cars like the V-6 Mustang. It's lighter and more fun to drive, and someone else will always have more horsepower."

 

Maybe this explains why Shelby produced the SGT?

 

Frankly, I don't understand this chase for HP myself. The SGT is pretty damn quick as it sits, but some people always want more...AND...a warranty to boot. I don't get that.

 

I could easily build a 4.6L-3V to over 350 RWHP without supercharging, but I do not expect Ford to supplement my effort with warranty coverage. Sure, if the radio shorts out, I expect repairs to be covered, but not with any drive line/power train mods. With my 3 Marauders, I went through 3 engines, two transmissions and two rear ends. Ford did not pay nickle one for any of that, but they did pay for other unrelated failures (radio, HVAC blend door, p/window motors, etc). It's only fair.

 

Wanna play? Expect to pay. Otherwise, leave it alone and be happy with what you have.

[motorjock205]

Hey Mac,

 

Did you ever get a good Dyno run after the Shorty Header Install??? I know you said the day you did the dyno run, it was 100% humidity with it raining out side and didn't get good readings....just wondered if you ever went back on a better day...

[LuLu]

Hey Mac,

 

Did you ever get a good Dyno run after the Shorty Header Install??? I know you said the day you did the dyno run, it was 100% humidity with it raining out side and didn't get good readings....just wondered if you ever went back on a better day...

No, Carl, not yet. It's still on my list of things to get done.

[stump_breaker]

Gents,

 

How could i reach 350 HP at the crank without voiding the warranty? First of all, is it possible? If yes how?

 

I have some ideas below but any other options would be appreciated.

 

- Ceramic Headers

- one piece lighter drive shaft

- Pulleys

 

I do not want to install a supercharger before 36K/3Y. Just want to be on the safe side...

 

My suggestion is to swap in some 4:10 gears and better utilize the power you already have. You will not be disappointed. Of course this will require a tuner to change the computer for the new gears and usually a mild tune will come along with that. I am very pleased with mine.

[SGT0649]

+1

 

4.10 gears really wake up the car and you will even see a mileage increase.

[jplanders]

+1

 

4.10 gears really wake up the car and you will even see a mileage increase.

 

Can you explain the mileage increase comment. I would have thought the higher RPM in every gear would actually reduce mileage. Evidently that is incorrect.

 

Thanks

 

Jim

[LuLu]

Can you explain the mileage increase comment. I would have thought the higher RPM in every gear would actually reduce mileage. Evidently that is incorrect.

 

Thanks

 

Jim

I am likewise interested in hearing an explanation on this point.

 

I understand that "taller" (as we call them here) gears move the car more efficiently and engine RPMs are higher and this does not prove up to mean better fuel economy. Moving bulk weight faster will reduce fuel consumption, however, a taller gear increases engine RPMs.

 

It doesn't add up...I suppose it's a matter of getting more "go forward" power to the ground and getting up to speed sooner, as well as more coasting after the desired speed is achieved. 4:10s will do that. But, cruising at highway speed on 4:10s will not improve MPG.

 

A taller rear gear will consume more MPG, because engine RPM will be higher at highway cruise speeds.

[hotrodbob]

I know we all sometime's want more power. But in my younger days it was said that if you could get 1hp for every cubic inch you where doing good. So right now I have 290 at the rear wheels. I should be happy. But I want more. :happy feet:

[stump_breaker]

I am likewise interested in hearing an explanation on this point.

 

I understand that "taller" (as we call them here) gears move the car more efficiently and engine RPMs are higher and this does not prove up to mean better fuel economy. Moving bulk weight faster will reduce fuel consumption, however, a taller gear increases engine RPMs.

 

It doesn't add up...I suppose it's a matter of getting more "go forward" power to the ground and getting up to speed sooner, as well as more coasting after the desired speed is achieved. 4:10s will do that. But, cruising at highway speed on 4:10s will not improve MPG.

 

A taller rear gear will consume more MPG, because engine RPM will be higher at highway cruise speeds.

 

Actual numbers from driving our SGT with 4:10's depend on the driver. My wife naturally gets much better mileage than I since it's all about how heavy your foot is and I find my size 13 to be weighty at times. She drove the car for 1 week straight 35 miles one way to work plus running around in Mesquite and the computer showed an average MPG of 22-23. She likes to run 70-80 on the highway. My average will usually be 18-20mpg but I do about 80% in town and stop and go driving plus I play alot. On the highway I set the cruise at 65 and cleared the instant MPG monitor. After about 10-15 miles it was showing 26.5 and still slowly going up in tenths. I finally couldn't stand it anymore and planted my right foot.

As I have said many times it's all about final gear ratio's and how high OD gear is. A 300 RPM increase at 65 mph in 5th is not that significant when it comes to mileage. 1-4 is a different story. Mac, you're a big proponent of torque so think of it like this. All gears do at highway speed is move the cruising RPM's up in the torque band and cause the engine to do less work, or so has been my experience with two vehicles. I will say this. Once you go past 65 mileage will drop but by 1/2-1 mpg. The gears do cause a problem there unless your OK with 24.5-25 mpg.

 

When My wife and I took our Vegas road trip, after 3100 plus miles we averaged about 24.5 mpg. That was with stock gears. There may be a small drop now but I still say it has more to do with the type of driving and the type of driver than the gears.

[ilmor]

All the auto manufacturers are not increasing fuel mileage by going with 4:10 gears; they're going the other direction.

 

As for the Shelby GT horsepower, I've always said that it had plenty for me. Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to really use the full extent of it (no dragway around here, etc.), it certainly has more than enough power for how I typically use it cruising around town here in New England. Now, if I lived in the wide open spaces of the west somewhere I might have a different view... This car does have a very nice balance of power and handling. If anything, I think the best mods for this car would be more improved suspension components, lightweight wheels, alum. driveshaft, improved braking (w/ brake ducts) and maybe taller gearing plus anything to lighten it up even more. Following that, go with engine power mods which do not add weight (such as pullies, larger throttle body, steeda elbow, headers, professional tune). I think Carrol Shelby would really like the result.

[GT500-07]

Have your dealer install a set of the FRPP ported heads,cams and shorty headers.

 

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...rtKeyField=9447

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...tKeyField=10309

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...rtKeyField=8020

 

next step would be the 4.6 Aluminator (shortblock)

[69dejavue]

All the auto manufacturers are not increasing fuel mileage by going with 4:10 gears; they're going the other direction.

 

As for the Shelby GT horsepower, I've always said that it had plenty for me. Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to really use the full extent of it (no dragway around here, etc.), it certainly has more than enough power for how I typically use it cruising around town here in New England. Now, if I lived in the wide open spaces of the west somewhere I might have a different view... This car does have a very nice balance of power and handling. If anything, I think the best mods for this car would be more improved suspension components, lightweight wheels, alum. driveshaft, improved braking (w/ brake ducts) and maybe taller gearing plus anything to lighten it up even more. Following that, go with engine power mods which do not add weight (such as pullies, larger throttle body, steeda elbow, headers, professional tune). I think Carrol Shelby would really like the result.

 

Concur with Ilmor re manufacuters going the other direction. But that is why they also went to 5 and 6 speed transmissions. Have a close ration first four gears and gears 5 and 6 can be overdrive for better mileage. The best of both worlds.

[LuLu]

Have your dealer install a set of the FRPP ported heads,cams and shorty headers.

 

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...rtKeyField=9447

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...tKeyField=10309

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...rtKeyField=8020

 

next step would be the 4.6 Aluminator (shortblock)

By the time you pay for these parts, plus labor and retuning, may as well just buy a blower?

 

This is why the alure of supercharging is so strong. It's cheaper than building a custom engine.

[GT500-07]

By the time you pay for these parts, plus labor and retuning, may as well just buy a blower?

 

This is why the alure of supercharging is so strong. It's cheaper than building a custom engine.

 

Mac your right it would be cheaper, just giving some options.

[StrayShadow]

I agree with Ilmor. I think decreasing weight is the way to go. An aluminum drive shaft and

flywheel would make a big difference. I plan on getting these at some point along with a set

of headers and a new elbow. There aren't many cars on the road now that can touch it like it

sits! A good driver in a lesser powered car can beat a bad driver in a higher horse power

car every time.

 

 

Kevin

07SGT2591

[SGT0649]

Actual numbers from driving our SGT with 4:10's depend on the driver. My wife naturally gets much better mileage than I since it's all about how heavy your foot is and I find my size 13 to be weighty at times. She drove the car for 1 week straight 35 miles one way to work plus running around in Mesquite and the computer showed an average MPG of 22-23. She likes to run 70-80 on the highway. My average will usually be 18-20mpg but I do about 80% in town and stop and go driving plus I play alot. On the highway I set the cruise at 65 and cleared the instant MPG monitor. After about 10-15 miles it was showing 26.5 and still slowly going up in tenths. I finally couldn't stand it anymore and planted my right foot.

As I have said many times it's all about final gear ratio's and how high OD gear is. A 300 RPM increase at 65 mph in 5th is not that significant when it comes to mileage. 1-4 is a different story. Mac, you're a big proponent of torque so think of it like this. All gears do at highway speed is move the cruising RPM's up in the torque band and cause the engine to do less work, or so has been my experience with two vehicles. I will say this. Once you go past 65 mileage will drop but by 1/2-1 mpg. The gears do cause a problem there unless your OK with 24.5-25 mpg.

 

When My wife and I took our Vegas road trip, after 3100 plus miles we averaged about 24.5 mpg. That was with stock gears. There may be a small drop now but I still say it has more to do with the type of driving and the type of driver than the gears.

 

 

 

I would say in my case I have changed my driving style with the 4.10 gears which has given a few extra mpg. I drive primarily on the tollway at 65-75mph. The extra rpm's seem to make the car more responsive and not as sluggish so I have not been laying my foot in it to pass as much. The results could also be more from the tune Quantum did at the same time and not necessarily the gear change. However, across the board through all gears the car performs much better.

[Son of GT]

By the time you pay for these parts, plus labor and retuning, may as well just buy a blower?

 

This is why the alure of supercharging is so strong. It's cheaper than building a custom engine.

Yup. That's the point I was making.

[LuLu]

I would say in my case I have changed my driving style with the 4.10 gears which has given a few extra mpg. I drive primarily on the tollway at 65-75mph. The extra rpm's seem to make the car more responsive and not as sluggish so I have not been laying my foot in it to pass as much. The results could also be more from the tune Quantum did at the same time and not necessarily the gear change. However, across the board through all gears the car performs much better.

Well, this is what I was waiting to hear, thank you SGT0649. And, I find it quite plausible as well.

 

Getting the bulk weight of an SGT up to the speed desired will happen quicker with 4:10s added over the stock 3:55s. That initial "pull to speed" will cost you fuel and burn more gas. However, once you are up to your desired crusing speed, 4:10s will maintain that desired speed while burning less fuel for the effort.

 

It's all relative...Get more "oomph" by tickling the throttle at a maintained speed figures in MPG "average". The quicker you can accomplish a passing move in traffic with less throttle, the less fuel you will burn. It all works out in the end.

 

Tunes work to accomplish this as well. The WOT maps are spelled out in the tune, but if you can achieve your goal without triggering a WOT map, this will conserve fuel. Once you trigger a WOT map, fuel, spark and timing allocations change. With a stock SAI/FRP tune, this will result in a richer AFR mixture, not to mention the unburned fuel that will pass through the exhaust system once you back off the throttle. 4:10s will aid in avoiding the WOT maps.

 

As I type this, I am averaging 26-28 MPG on my SGT on the highway, and I have seen my "average" MPG as high as 29.5. I have a custom exhaust system (Pypes shorty headers and muffler delete) as well as a lighter one-piece drive shaft, but I do not claim that my improved MPG is a product of these mods. It's simply a matter of being satisfied with the present performance, and avoiding WOT runs.

 

My city MPG is much lower, anywhere from 18 to 24 MPG, depending on my mood. Sometimes I'm angry, or in a hurry, and I want to blast down the street. Other times, I just sit back and enjoy the ride. Right foot connected to my emotional brain...Go figure? In this way, it all makes automotive sense. Get more push forward from less push on the throttle, and MPG can improve from 4:10s.

 

Y'all be safe, happy motoring, gents!

[fatboy]

Carroll Shelby comments on HP, lifted from a recent article in Road and Track about the Terlingua Mustang...

 

"This horsepower race is a bunch of b---s---, but you have to keep up with the Germans. We have to make a certain number of high horsepower cars because some people want them — and you magazine journalists like to write about horsepower — but I figure it's about over. I hope it is. Supercars have never been my deal; we need to go back to affordable performance. I like lighter cars that are fun to drive. I've always loved pocket-rockets.

 

"Back when I was building the Shelby cars for Chrysler," he continued, "people said I was going to ruin my reputation by building smaller cars. Well, I don't give a s--- about my reputation; I just want to build cars that I like to drive. Cars like the V-6 Mustang. It's lighter and more fun to drive, and someone else will always have more horsepower."

 

Maybe this explains why Shelby produced the SGT?

 

Frankly, I don't understand this chase for HP myself. The SGT is pretty damn quick as it sits, but some people always want more...AND...a warranty to boot. I don't get that.

 

I could easily build a 4.6L-3V to over 350 RWHP without supercharging, but I do not expect Ford to supplement my effort with warranty coverage. Sure, if the radio shorts out, I expect repairs to be covered, but not with any drive line/power train mods. With my 3 Marauders, I went through 3 engines, two transmissions and two rear ends. Ford did not pay nickle one for any of that, but they did pay for other unrelated failures (radio, HVAC blend door, p/window motors, etc). It's only fair.

 

Wanna play? Expect to pay. Otherwise, leave it alone and be happy with what you have.

 

 

i'm with Carrol Shelby on that. this car is just fun as hell to drive. even in town with the manual tranny. i dont care about beatin the other guy. its just me and the car. thats all i care about.

[stump_breaker]

Regardless of how you look at it the 4:10's do make you feel like you have an extra 50 or so horses without sacrificing fuel economy if you can keep your foot out of the skinny pedal.. A swap and tune will run ~$1k plus or minus depending on your shop. Well worth it IMO.

One can choose to believe the guys who have 'em and love 'em or the guys who do not and say it's not possible.

 

 

 

 

SGT0649, did Quantum do a custom tune or box tune on yours?