AlloyDropTop Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) I guess I didn't mean the latest revised input shaft or nickle hub clutch. I did think that some running change had been made to both the tolerance and lubing of the input shaft, to reduce the likelyhood of drag. I thought that happened sometime in the fall of '07? My thought was that those two things will reduce / prevent the surface rust from forming and / or, the increased tolerance will help it from hanging. Since my driving is correct, my line of thought is that my clutch won't suffer TSB ills. I know you can't predict, but based on all the information you are passing along from Ford people, it sounds like they really feel the clutch problem is more user error than car issues. I might agree that it might be user error, but the only thing that should happen with user error is the wearing out of the friction material. Flywheel shouldn't warp.... I don't drive urban stop and go driving, and never slip the clutch. I think I should be good to go with the original stuff, since I don't think I'll ever get Ford to perform the TSB without more symptoms.... Edited June 3, 2009 by Grabber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) I'm saying that there is some user error with the revised parts and 2009 units. There's no kidding around about Ford having some bad parts on these cars. Edited June 3, 2009 by Grabber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharper Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 You are incorrect. Your Dec. 2007 build does NOT have the revised input shaft or nickle hub clutch. Grabber, from your research approx when did they start having the revised input shaft in the transmissions. I for some reason though my Feb 2008 build had the new shaft, but maybe I was misinformed I tried searching for the answer, but the forum will not allow me to search for 'tsb' as is it not long enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloyDropTop Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I'm saying that there is some user error with the revised parts and 2009 units. There's no kidding around about Ford having some bad parts on these cars. I don't know why I worry about it so much. I can flip the bill for the repair, but I would get lots of grief from the family CFO. I was thinking you were talking the original stuff, not the revised. I didn't know people were frying the new stuff already. I guess I haven't been keeping up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) I don't know why I worry about it so much. I can flip the bill for the repair, but I would get lots of grief from the family CFO. I was thinking you were talking the original stuff, not the revised. I didn't know people were frying the new stuff already. I guess I haven't been keeping up. I made a mistake about your date. Read my earlier info: I have been doing some more research. As I stated in Post #1 Tremec approved the revision to the input shaft on 8/9/07. http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php...c=23884&hl= Per discussion with Tremec, it could of taken up to 2 months to get this drawing implemented into a finished product on the production line. I was told by Tremec that some of the TUET5800 series transmissions got this revision before the official part number was changed to TUET8175B. This makes since to me because I have 2 friends that were waiting along time for the revised transmissions back in that time period. One of them recieved his transmission the 3rd week of October 2007 and the other one recieved his the 2nd week of November. Both of these transmissions have Mid October 2007 manufacture dates stamped on the transmission tag. IMO, based on my research, any Tremec transmission with a manufacture date of mid Oct. 2007 and on, has the newly designed input shaft in it regardless of weather or not it says TUET5800 or TUET8175B on it. Edited June 3, 2009 by Grabber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloyDropTop Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I made a mistake about your date. Read my earlier info: I have been doing some more research. As I stated in Post #1 Tremec approved the revision to the input shaft on 8/9/07. http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/index.php...c=23884&hl= Per discussion with Tremec, it could of taken up to 2 months to get this drawing implemented into a finished product on the production line. I was told by Tremec that some of the TUET5800 series transmissions got this revision before the official part number was changed to TUET8175B. This makes since to me because I have 2 friends that were waiting along time for the revised transmissions back in that time period. One of them recieved his transmission the 3rd week of October 2007 and the other one recieved his the 2nd week of November. Both of these transmissions have Mid October 2007 manufacture dates stamped on the transmission tag. IMO, based on my research, any Tremec transmission with a manufacture date of mid Oct. 2007 and on, has the newly designed input shaft in it regardless of weather or not it says TUET5800 or TUET8175B on it. Thanks Grabber. It is my opinion that this change should prevent the dragging, and my driving style should prevent the warping. I already made a go at the TSB once, and got a "Tech Couldn't Duplicate Condition" upon return. Maybe I'll make one more run at it, prior to the expiration of the warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbypowered Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 No problem. I spent a great deal of time talking to some Ford folks about this. This is what I learned and what I was told. Keep in mind I'm just passing on what I was told, so don't shoot the messenger. This car is a high performance car and it seems that alot of people purchased this car and have never owned a high performance car with this type of clutch. Many of the people that purchased this car do not know how to drive it correctly. AGAIN...REMEMBER THIS IS WHAT I WAS TOLD. I'm not telling you that you personally do not know how to drive....but many are having problems with the short engagement of this clutch. I have also been told that alot of people keep there foot ever so slightly on the clutch pedal while they are driving and this trashs the clutch after a few months of driving. Also some people need to put their seat forward another inch so when they depress the clutch pedal....they are pushing it all the way in. This will toast a clutch quickly too. Many people just do not know how to drive this car and that is a plain and simple fact. Personally I think that the organic clutch will have less issues than the current clutch and save Ford from warranty issues that are caused by people not using the clutch properly. some people sit closer and depress the clutch pedal all the way- this will toast the clutch? Grabber your saying when you shift you need to good enough not to reach the floor with the clutch when you shift- drove lots of sticks and that would be a tough issue to perform under most condtiions- I mentioned this on another post further down and you said to the floor- how can you have a proper working cllutch and be told never let it touch the floor- at some point you have to know when to shift and the floorboard is a stopping point- it may be whap and your off the floor but not touching the floor on all your shifts I really wonder how that can be done on a consistent basis. I had to think about that one as shifting is so natural I went for a drive and sometimes I reach the floor and sometimes I am close and sometimes I have no idea except by the results of the shifts correct feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light66 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I let a friend test drive my TSB GT500 and he could not figure out the clutch to save his soul. I thought the drive shaft was going to fall off, he had so much clutch shutter when releasing from a start. Even when applying a liberal amount of throttle, he could not get a smooth take off. The clutch definitely requires a different technique. Proper driving position, throttle application and foot heal and ball placement on the clutch does help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 some people sit closer and depress the clutch pedal all the way- this will toast the clutch? Grabber your saying when you shift you need to good enough not to reach the floor with the clutch when you shift- drove lots of sticks and that would be a tough issue to perform under most condtiions- I mentioned this on another post further down and you said to the floor- how can you have a proper working cllutch and be told never let it touch the floor- at some point you have to know when to shift and the floorboard is a stopping point- it may be whap and your off the floor but not touching the floor on all your shifts I really wonder how that can be done on a consistent basis. I had to think about that one as shifting is so natural I went for a drive and sometimes I reach the floor and sometimes I am close and sometimes I have no idea except by the results of the shifts correct feeling. I seem to be confusing you alot. Let me try to clear things up on what I'm trying to communicate to you. 1. If you leave your foot on the clutch pedal ever so slightly.....it will wear your clutch out faster. 2. If you do not depress your clutch pedal all the way in to the floor....it will wear your syncros out during shifting. I hope that clears things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Allowing your foot to impart pressure upon the pedal while already in gear and driving will ensure that the throwout bearing wears faster than normal. Release bearing failure Another common clutch failure is caused by release bearing failure. A release bearing failure is most generally attributed to lack of periodic lubrication. Another reason a release bearing might fail would be a failure by the driver to fully release a clutch, or by riding the clutch pedal. When a driver rides the clutch pedal, a continual thrust load on the bearing will create higher temperatures and consequential loss of lubricant. Failure to use NLGI #2 lubricant as recommended can also cause loss of lubricant even under normal operating conditions. An impending release bearing failure is accompanied by noise. Bent, altered or worn clutch external linkages can cause clutch failures. Any alteration to linkage after a clutch is properly internally and externally adjusted may cause the clutch to not release correctly. When a clutch is not set up properly, a tremendous amount of heat can build up. This is what destroys clutches. Proper driving technique will allow for optimum clutch life, however, not all driving techniques are proper. Typical driver misuse which leads to excessive heat and eventual clutch failure include: starting the vehicle rolling in the improper gear, overloading the clutch, riding the clutch pedal and holding the vehicle on an incline with a slipping clutch. An operator could cause catastrophic failure when coasting down a hill with the clutch released and the transmission in gear. This procedure will lead to higher driven disc rpm through a multiplication of ratios from the final drive and transmission. It can result in "throwing" the facings off the clutch discs. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/25...ss_control.aspx Once the free play in the pedal has been taken up, you are actuating the clutch system. It should not be necessary to depress the pedal 'all the way to floor' to avoid damaging synchros . That's a safe way of saying it to the masses though. When the clutch is fully disengaged and thus engine torque is no longer being transferred, it is then safe to shift gears without damage. But it is difficult to determine 'by feel' or 'by ear' at what point the clutch system is no longer slipping and has been disengaged, and as such, why many recommend to 'go all the way' with the pedal. The bottom line is simple. Keep your foot off the pedal unless shifting. Learn to minimize shifting. Shift to neutral when coming to a stop sign or red light. Using common sense goes a long way to allow it to live a long and healthy life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Allowing your foot to impart pressure upon the pedal while already in gear and driving will ensure that the throwout bearing wears faster than normal. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/25...ss_control.aspx Once the free play in the pedal has been taken up, you are actuating the clutch system. It should not be necessary to depress the pedal 'all the way to floor' to avoid damaging synchros . That's a safe way of saying it to the masses though. When the clutch is fully disengaged and thus engine torque is no longer being transferred, it is then safe to shift gears without damage. But it is difficult to determine 'by feel' or 'by ear' at what point the clutch system is no longer slipping and has been disengaged, and as such, why many recommend to 'go all the way' with the pedal. The bottom line is simple. Keep your foot off the pedal unless shifting. Learn to minimize shifting. Shift to neutral when coming to a stop sign or red light. Using common sense goes a long way to allow it to live a long and healthy life. TOB - Thanks for the very good post. You say it much better than me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbypowered Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 No problem. I spent a great deal of time talking to some Ford folks about this. This is what I learned and what I was told. Keep in mind I'm just passing on what I was told, so don't shoot the messenger. This car is a high performance car and it seems that alot of people purchased this car and have never owned a high performance car with this type of clutch. Many of the people that purchased this car do not know how to drive it correctly. AGAIN...REMEMBER THIS IS WHAT I WAS TOLD. I'm not telling you that you personally do not know how to drive....but many are having problems with the short engagement of this clutch. I have also been told that alot of people keep there foot ever so slightly on the clutch pedal while they are driving and this trashs the clutch after a few months of driving. Also some people need to put their seat forward another inch so when they depress the clutch pedal....they are pushing it all the way in. This will toast a clutch quickly too. Many people just do not know how to drive this car and that is a plain and simple fact. Personally I think that the organic clutch will have less issues than the current clutch and save Ford from warranty issues that are caused by people not using the clutch properly. You state some people need to put their seat forward another inch or twe so when they depress the clutch pedal they are pushing all the way in-- all the way in should be to the floor see the confusion- all the way in will not hurt the clutch correcto- thus the confusion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 You state some people need to put their seat forward another inch or twe so when they depress the clutch pedal they are pushing all the way in-- all the way in should be to the floor see the confusion- all the way in will not hurt the clutch correcto- thus the confusion All the way in is good. Push your clutch all the way in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ingram4868 Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 All the way in is good. Push your clutch all the way in. ..uh, what did he say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelbypowered Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 All the way in is good. Push your clutch all the way in. Yes all the way in- very confused- I need to read the post before I type the dumb response- sorry guys- I shall ride off in the suset until I make another unthought out post- Grabber can pick the hairs out of his fingernails from scracthing his head over this one- to the floor- to the floor- one hundred times on the blacboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tob Posted June 4, 2009 Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 TOB - Thanks for the very good post. You say it much better than me. Just an East Coast - West Coast nuance, that's all. The thanks goes entirely to you. Your efforts regarding the entire clutch/transmission debacle are nothing short of epic. There is no other source available anywhere that is even remotely close to providing the documentation that you have. You've obviously spent a great deal of time on the subject, allowing countless others to minimize the number of issues they might face in correcting the problem. While laying on my back and working blindly to attach FRPP's shifter linkage on my own GT500, I found myself facing the underside of the bellhousing. With your suggestions fresh in my mind, I loosened a couple of bolts at the block plate/bellhousing to make it easier to see. You confirmed in another thread that my build date put me on the safe side and thus that I should have the new flywheel, etc. Well, I stared at the back side of the flywheel for a moment and smiled. Happy because I made the cutoff. Thankful for the information you graciously provided that made it simple to verify. Tob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2009 Tob, I'm glad you have the new flywheel. I know what a relief that must of been as you stared up at it. Congrats man !! :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msbmustang Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Tob, I'm glad you have the new flywheel. I know what a relief that must of been as you stared up at it. Congrats man !! :happy feet: Grabber and Group, Another related question. If you were coasting downhill (I know you are not supposed to do that) does it make a difference if you hold the clutch to the floor all the way down the hill or if you put it in neutral and release the clutch? Thanks, MSB Mustang / Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) Grabber and Group, Another related question. If you were coasting downhill (I know you are not supposed to do that) does it make a difference if you hold the clutch to the floor all the way down the hill or if you put it in neutral and release the clutch? Thanks, MSB Mustang / Mark Leave it in gear and have the clutch out. Or coast in nuetral with the clutch out. Edited June 9, 2009 by Grabber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew DeSpirito Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 Okay, Grabber...while we're on the subject of proper driving techniques... I noticed in another post you said you usually go from 2nd to neutral when coming to a stop. I understand the basics of maximizing tranny/clutch life (pedal all the way in, neutral at a stop, "blip" throttle to rev-match to minimize wear on synchros), but what about when decelerating? Example...two-lane road, 45mph speed limit...I'm cruising in say 4th gear (or maybe 5th)...red light ahead. Gotta come to a stop. Do you down shift 4th -> 3rd -> 2nd and blip throttle/engage engine at every gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msbmustang Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) Leave it in gear and have the clutch out. Or coast in nuetral with the clutch out. By the term "Clutch Out" do you mean holding the clutch pedal depressed to the floor? ... Which is what I do when I am coasting downhill so that I can respond quickly if I need to put it back in gear to respond to an unforseen event! Edited June 9, 2009 by Grabber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 (edited) Okay, Grabber...while we're on the subject of proper driving techniques... I noticed in another post you said you usually go from 2nd to neutral when coming to a stop. I understand the basics of maximizing tranny/clutch life (pedal all the way in, neutral at a stop, "blip" throttle to rev-match to minimize wear on synchros), but what about when decelerating? Example...two-lane road, 45mph speed limit...I'm cruising in say 4th gear (or maybe 5th)...red light ahead. Gotta come to a stop. Do you down shift 4th -> 3rd -> 2nd and blip throttle/engage engine at every gear? Yes I downshift the gears like you describe above. That's the fun of owning a stick. However....I don't blip the throttle like you describe. Edited June 9, 2009 by Grabber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 By the term "Clutch Out" do you mean holding the clutch pedal depressed to the floor? ... Which is what I do when I am coasting downhill so that I can respond quickly if I need to put it back in gear to respond to an unforseen event! NO. By "clutch in" I mean the pedal is pressed into the floorboard. By "clutch out" I mean the pedal is released all the way out with your foot off the pedal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Yes I downshift the gears like you describe above. That's the fun of owning a stick. However....I don't blip the throttle like you describe. Hi Grabber, Thanks for the wealth of information you've provided. I'm learning a lot from you. Please correct me if you think my technique is wrong, but I was taught to perform a heel-&-toe and blip the throttle on more aggressive down-shifting, so as to match the rpm speed of the lower gear being engaged. On more casual stops, say from slower speeds, I simply take the transmission out of gear into neutral, and cruise to a dead-stop. I generally don't down-shift without blipping the throttle, like you do. Could you please explain the pros and cons of both techniques? Thank you kindly. - BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hi Grabber, Thanks for the wealth of information you've provided. I'm learning a lot from you. Please correct me if you think my technique is wrong, but I was taught to perform a heel-&-toe and blip the throttle on more aggressive down-shifting, so as to match the rpm speed of the lower gear being engaged. On more casual stops, say from slower speeds, I simply take the transmission out of gear into neutral, and cruise to a dead-stop. I generally don't down-shift without blipping the throttle, like you do. Could you please explain the pros and cons of both techniques? Thank you kindly. - BORG I don't "Blip the throttle" so I'm not savy on that technique. I think that is old school driving and used in motor cycles riding alot. Someone else may have the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckstang Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hey guys, any know if when you take the shifter out of gear and place in neutral, do you need to use the clutch or can you just push it out of gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grabber Posted June 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hey guys, any know if when you take the shifter out of gear and place in neutral, do you need to use the clutch or can you just push it out of gear? Use the clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloyDropTop Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hi Grabber, Thanks for the wealth of information you've provided. I'm learning a lot from you. Please correct me if you think my technique is wrong, but I was taught to perform a heel-&-toe and blip the throttle on more aggressive down-shifting, so as to match the rpm speed of the lower gear being engaged. On more casual stops, say from slower speeds, I simply take the transmission out of gear into neutral, and cruise to a dead-stop. I generally don't down-shift without blipping the throttle, like you do. Could you please explain the pros and cons of both techniques? Thank you kindly. - BORG I always blip the throttle on downshifts. Match the revs, otherwise you are forcing the clutch to speed the engine up, which puts stress on clutch material. I only downshift when I need the lower gear. If I am comming to a stop sign, etc... I simply leave it in the gear I am in and when it slows enough to get to about 1500RPM, then I push the clutch pedal in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I always blip the throttle on downshifts. Match the revs, otherwise you are forcing the clutch to speed the engine up, which puts stress on clutch material. I only downshift when I need the lower gear. If I am coming to a stop sign, etc... I simply leave it in the gear I am in and when it slows enough to get to about 1500RPM, then I push the clutch pedal in. Yup, makes sense - that is exactly what I do too. I like to blip the throttle in order to match the rpm of the lower gear I am engaging for the exact reasons stated above. It seems like a lot more stress is transferred to the clutch if one were to simply downshift without bringing the rpm up to match. Just my .02 cents worth - I'd love to hear if anyone knows of a different/better technique which will (1) prolong clutch life and (2) ensure the correct gear is engaged before coming out of a corner, or from a stop. - BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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