"Rufs Garage"

[RUFDRAFT]

Here's an interesting link -

 

http://www.fastlanemotorsports.us/UCustDet...p?customerid=50

 

Just pulley's and a tune - and 304 at the wheels!

 

Something's not kosher 'round here.

 

Very frustrating.

 

Cams - throttle body - intake - shorty headers - and Less hp than this car?

 

Is it time for another Op?

[carnut]

If we do we dont want to forget the Charge Motion Delete Plates

[RUFDRAFT]

WTF are they?

 

Apparently they replace the baffles in the throttle body so you get quicker throttle response -- how would that affect hp?

 

And if they're significant - why wouldn't Brenspeed sell them along with their tune?

 

Ruf is not having a very happy day in the 'hood.

[moabman]

Did a quick search and found the same info as you. Apparently, they replace some baffles that are behind the throttle body to help with idle emmisions. I don't think the replacement plates will help the high end much but should help eliminate throttle bog at low RPMs. I saw some references to < 10hp across the entire RPM range but one owner was skeptical.

 

Hang in there Ruf - you'll soon be rollin with 320+

[ford4v429]

glad she arrived safe and sound!

 

got some pics of my first one coming off the hauler, along with the crunched wing/decklid/quarter...the reordered one arrived intact, but no unloading pics as of course I was 1000 miles away on vacation...rolled over 10k on mine the night before last, still every bit as much fun as the first time I hopped in after waiting 5 months - hadnt even gotten a testdrive as gt/sticks were rarer than hens teeth in ohio last year- regional allocation SUCKS!!!

 

ps- the charge motion control valves are butterflies between intake and head ports- Ive read they divert low flow towards fuelinjector tip for better atomization/cleaner emissions...just put a similar note in a thread over at MF...

[RUFDRAFT]

Thanks - 4v429 - I'm learning about these plates.

 

Still don't think they'd make up the loss in hp - or justify the dyno graph.

 

Must be something else.

 

I'm going to call these folks on Monday - they're about 2 hours from here.

 

http://www.fastlanemotorsports.us/UHome.asp

 

Might be time for a second opinion.

[90GT]

What tune are you running Ruf???

[RUFDRAFT]

SCT - X Cal 2 from Brenspeed.com.

 

 

Since my welder/fabricator buddy had a hard time with the lower billet grille - I ordered one from Moss Motors - Carriage Works in Ca. We'll see if its a "good fit."

 

Mirrors painted on Tues!

[mastersmech1]

SCT - X Cal 2 from Brenspeed.com.

Since my welder/fabricator buddy had a hard time with the lower billet grille - I ordered one from Moss Motors - Carriage Works in Ca. We'll see if its a "good fit."

 

Mirrors painted on Tues!

 

Keep me posted on the mirror painting. :happy feet:

[ratnacage]

Hey guys - thanks, Dan - for the site. I'll check it out.

 

I'm running 87 octane like Brenspeed recommended.

 

I'm sending him a copy of the dyno sheet.

 

Let's see what he says. He said the numbers should be better.

 

 

 

I don't understand what's up with the 87 octane. There's no way you can run enough timing with 87 to get where you want to be. My guess is that with the 87 running in it's veins, your knock sensors are doing their job and killing power when the inevitable detonation occurs.

 

Am I missing something?

[90GT]

I don't understand what's up with the 87 octane. There's no way you can run enough timing with 87 to get where you want to be. My guess is that with the 87 running in it's veins, your knock sensors are doing their job and killing power when the inevitable detonation occurs.

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

No I think your correct. You may have found Ruf's problem. Definitely need more than 87 octane to hit 325 rwhp. That and a tune specific to the cams he's running.

[mastersmech1]

No I think your correct. You may have found Ruf's problem. Definitely need more than 87 octane to hit 325 rwhp. That and a tune specific to the cams he's running.

 

I'm no expert but the 87 octane does seem low for HP.

[RUFDRAFT]

Easy now, men!

 

I'm just telling you what Brent from Brenspeed told me.

 

I'd be happy to run 91 or 93 - any harm in trying that?

 

Someone said here that once you go higher on octane, you had to stay with it.

 

90GT - Brent tunes the SCT for the Comp Cams.

[90GT]

Easy now, men!

 

I'm just telling you what Brent from Brenspeed told me.

 

I'd be happy to run 91 or 93 - any harm in trying that?

 

Someone said here that once you go higher on octane, you had to stay with it.

 

90GT - Brent tunes the SCT for the Comp Cams.

 

 

 

I'd try running a tune for a higher octane and see if that doesn't do the trick.

[RUFDRAFT]

So a tune can be tweaked for octane?

 

Ruf is getting confused. Little grey cells are approaching rev limiter.

[90GT]

So a tune can be tweaked for octane?

 

Ruf is getting confused. Little grey cells are approaching rev limiter.

 

 

 

Sure!!! Any tune can be modified. Since you have the SCT tuner a number of parameters can be changed like the air fuel ration, spark, rpm limit as well as others. I would only let an experience tuner do this while the car is on a dyno.

[carnut]

This true, and add a little more hossponies at the same time :hyper:

[kraegar]

Here's the things an SCT tuner can adjust:

 

Fuel Adjustment

Spark Adjustment

Read / Clear OBD-II Trouble Codes

Axle Ratio Selection

MAF Meter Selection

Tire Size Selection

Fuel Injector Size Selection

Idle RPM

Cooling Fan On / Off Temperature

Disable Traction Control

Two Step On / Off RPM

Automatic Shift Control

 

basically controls the air/fuel ratio, spark, etc. Higher octane fuel gives more power to help move more air. More air = more HP. Remember, gasoline is just a catalyst to burn the air, to drive your pistons. The more "explosive" the catalyst, the more air you combust (burn), the more energy that moves the piston. So having the right mixture of fuel & air, and the more powerful fuel (if you have enough air to make use of it), the better you perform.

 

Some (not so light) reading available here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine

 

- Tony

[RUFDRAFT]

By God, Scotty, I need more Octane!

[carnut]

Here's the things an SCT tuner can adjust:

 

Fuel Adjustment

Spark Adjustment

Read / Clear OBD-II Trouble Codes

Axle Ratio Selection

MAF Meter Selection

Tire Size Selection

Fuel Injector Size Selection

Idle RPM

Cooling Fan On / Off Temperature

Disable Traction Control

Two Step On / Off RPM

Automatic Shift Control

 

basically controls the air/fuel ratio, spark, etc. Higher octane fuel gives more power to help move more air. More air = more HP. Remember, gasoline is just a catalyst to burn the air, to drive your pistons. The more "explosive" the catalyst, the more air you combust (burn), the more energy that moves the piston. So having the right mixture of fuel & air, and the more powerful fuel (if you have enough air to make use of it), the better you perform.

 

Some (not so light) reading available here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine

 

- Tony

 

You might try a couple gallons of nitromethane to help clean out the combustion chambers

[RUFDRAFT]

There's an idea for a new men's fragrance - Nitro!

 

I love the smell of nitro first thing in the morning....

[68fastback]

You might try a couple gallons of nitromethane to help clean out the combustion chambers

 

 

 

.

[68fastback]

Actually, be carefull with octane.

 

Higher octane fuel does NOT have more inherent power in it -- in fact it has a tiny bit LESS! Don't let anyone tell ya otherwise.

 

Higher octane merely raises the detonation point, i.e. the pressure level at which gas of a given mixture/ratio will [pre-]ignite (detonate).

 

So, if the effective compression ratio has not been changed, higher octane will only get you a bigger bill (and a possibly a little dirtier engine though the ECUs these days are very tolerant of octane variations).

 

Higher octane is essential with higher compression because, by raising the detonation point, you're able to take advantage of the higher energy ratio provided by the higher compression (more charge colume in less space) -- the octane is just permitting you to 'uncork' that higher ratio -- it is most definately NOT creating the extra energy (in fact it has a wee bit less energy than regular).

 

If you put domed pistons in, smaller CC heads, add a blower -- anything that modifies the static compression ratio, higher octane will be usefull ...in fact, essential (unless you like carrying home the botttom end of your engine in a wheelbarrow)

 

HOWEVER....

The RUFmobile has not changed it's static compression ratio. Now, if those cams are enabling the engine to 'sing' together with the headers and intake (whichever pieces), then the higher lift and longer duration of the stage-3 cams might modify the effective compression ratio due to the dynamics of the intake charge being exquisitely timed to piston location/misture wavefront at specific higher rpm.

 

But the Rufmobile is seeing slightly rich ratios, which seems to say that is not happening -- it would be going a bit lean and wanting to detonate if that were the case. Of course, there's another possibility that I think Coldwater touched on earlier -- that, for some unknown reason, detonation is wanting to occur inherently by virtue of the existing tune and the knock sensor may be backing off the timing and/or moving down the A/F table to compensate, therby sucking out power. But that does not make a case, to my mind, for higher octane in an NA motor with no physical changes affecting static compression.

 

In the event a multi-pass dyno tune gets you the power that should be in the mods you've made, you could run a higher octane and re-dyno-tune for it, but the only improvement to be had from just the octane change would be only as much as the cams are capable of dynamically affecting cyliner compression in the dynamically in the upper rev ranges -- and that will be realtively tiny unless the components were all selected/built specifically to do that in a particular rev range (a black art of trial and error -- which is why pre-perfected dyno-tune complete component packages are starting to surface).

 

The problem is not with octane -- changing it will only confuse the issue further until the right tune is found IMHO.

 

Realize though, that correcting the richness with a multi-pass dyno tune is likely the first thing that needs to be addressed. If an engine is a little rich, it's not uncommon for a competant multi-pass dyno tuner (not a canned tune) to uncork 10% (or more) additional HP with the right A/F and timing, etc.

 

Plus, the day the Rufstang was on the dyno the barometric pressure was REALLY low (like the equivalent of being halfway up mount Everest!) and the relative humidity was near 100% (much less O2 in that air) -- both of which could account for the richness if the MAF weren't adjusting properly for that for some reason. Nevertheless, even tho the MAF was adjusting for the air density, the headers and cams introduce changes that a caned tune cannot optimize for (can even unoptimize) unless specifically prepped for that car and those components.

 

Have faith -- a good dyno tuner will get out of those pieces their collective potential -- to the extent that they effectively support each other in a usefull rev range. Have to add that caveat, because the shorty headers generally support low end grunt, but high-lift & duration cams want to make power (via flow dynamics) higher up in the rev range which typically would go better with long-tubes or tri-Ys, but a good tuner will get the most out of the pieces you have installed and octane will not affect that as long as the the static compression has not been changed (it hasn't) and the flow dynamics are not affecting much more than flow -- i.e. no significant dynamic compression change due to the exquisite timing of the cam and pistons creating a pressure wave that effectively increases the static compression ratio -- which is desireable, but not likely happening to any great extent for a street application mostly seeing sub-6000 rpm.

 

Bryan, I think you'll be surprised at how much a competant tuner will uncork for you

 

Just my $.02

[yamahar1]

Actually, be carefull with octane.

 

Higher octane fuel does NOT have more inherent power in it -- in fact it has a tiny bit LESS! Don't let anyone tell ya otherwise.

 

Higher octane merely raises the detonation point, i.e. the pressure level at which gas of a given mixture/ratio will [pre-]ignite (detonate).

 

So, if the effective compression ratio has not been changed, higher octane will only get you a bigger bill (and a possibly a little dirtier engine though the ECUs these days are very tolerant of octane variations).

 

Higher octane is essential with higher compression because, by raising the detonation point, you're able to take advantage of the higher energy ratio provided by the higher compression (more charge colume in less space) -- the octane is just permitting you to 'uncork' that higher ratio -- it is most definately NOT creating the extra energy (in fact it has a wee bit less energy than regular).

 

If you put domed pistons in, smaller CC heads, add a blower -- anything that modifies the static compression ratio, higher octane will be usefull ...in fact, essential (unless you like carrying home the botttom end of your engine in a wheelbarrow)

 

HOWEVER....

The RUFmobile has not changed it's static compression ratio. Now, if those cams are enabling the engine to 'sing' together with the headers and intake (whichever pieces), then the higher lift and longer duration of the stage-3 cams might modify the effective compression ratio due to the dynamics of the intake charge being exquisitely timed to piston location/misture wavefront at specific higher rpm.

 

But the Rufmobile is seeing slightly rich ratios, which seems to say that is not happening -- it would be going a bit lean and wanting to detonate if that were the case. Of course, there's another possibility that I think Coldwater touched on earlier -- that, for some unknown reason, detonation is wanting to occur inherently by virtue of the existing tune and the knock sensor may be backing off the timing and/or moving down the A/F table to compensate, therby sucking out power. But that does not make a case, to my mind, for higher octane in an NA motor with no physical changes affecting static compression.

 

In the event a multi-pass dyno tune gets you the power that should be in the mods you've made, you could run a higher octane and re-dyno-tune for it, but the only improvement to be had from just the octane change would be only as much as the cams are capable of dynamically affecting cyliner compression in the dynamically in the upper rev ranges -- and that will be realtively tiny unless the components were all selected/built specifically to do that in a particular rev range (a black art of trial and error -- which is why pre-perfected dyno-tune complete component packages are starting to surface).

 

The problem is not with octane -- changing it will only confuse the issue further until the right tune is found IMHO.

 

Realize though, that correcting the richness with a multi-pass dyno tune is likely the first thing that needs to be addressed. If an engine is a little rich, it's not uncommon for a competant multi-pass dyno tuner (not a canned tune) to uncork 10% (or more) additional HP with the right A/F and timing, etc.

 

Plus, the day the Rufstang was on the dyno the barometric pressure was REALLY low (like the equivalent of being halfway up mount Everest!) and the relative humidity was near 100% (much less O2 in that air) -- both of which could account for the richness if the MAF weren't adjusting properly for that for some reason. Nevertheless, even tho the MAF was adjusting for the air density, the headers and cams introduce changes that a caned tune cannot optimize for (can even unoptimize) unless specifically prepped for that car and those components.

 

Have faith -- a good dyno tuner will get out of those pieces their collective potential -- to the extent that they effectively support each other in a usefull rev range. Have to add that caveat, because the shorty headers generally support low end grunt, but high-lift & duration cams want to make power (via flow dynamics) higher up in the rev range which typically would go better with long-tubes or tri-Ys, but a good tuner will get the most out of the pieces you have installed and octane will not affect that as long as the the static compression has not been changed (it hasn't) and the flow dynamics are not affecting much more than flow -- i.e. no significant dynamic compression change due to the exquisite timing of the cam and pistons creating a pressure wave that effectively increases the static compression ratio -- which is desireable, but not likely happening to any great extent for a street application mostly seeing sub-6000 rpm.

 

Bryan, I think you'll be surprised at how much a competant tuner will uncork for you

 

Just my $.02

 

 

 

I agree with the above post, or should I say book??? I am surprised by the low #'s Ruff posted. With only the Ford Power Pack, you can get around 305hp at the rear wheels........You have to run premium though, so says Ford Racing. That is only a cold air kit, tune, and louder mufflers. With the engine components you added, I would think you would be higher than your #'s, good luck though, I am learning about do's and do not's for my future stang, whatever it be GT, or GT500, or Rousch, or whatever, I will be interested in some mods!

[RUFDRAFT]

Dan - once again, I'm much obliged by your wisdom and articulation!

 

Everyone seems to have an opinion. The consensus seems to be The Tune! (and on a dyno)

 

Be assured that I'll see this through to some resolution and the numbers will rise.

 

You are the voice of reason, my man!

 

I know how much time it probably took you to write your response.

 

Know that you've given me some very expensive feedback! And - comfort in the fact that this issue will get resolved. Octane or not!

 

 

Stay tuned. My rear tires are going to be very warm - very soon!

 

Bryan

[ratnacage]

basically controls the air/fuel ratio, spark, etc. Higher octane fuel gives more power to help move more air. More air = more HP. Remember, gasoline is just a catalyst to burn the air, to drive your pistons. The more "explosive" the catalyst, the more air you combust (burn), the more energy that moves the piston. So having the right mixture of fuel & air, and the more powerful fuel (if you have enough air to make use of it), the better you perform.

 

 

Actually, the spark is the catalyst. Fuels is what burns, not the air. The actual chemical process that is occuring is the oxidation of the fuel. The component of air that matters is the O2 as this is what is combining with the fuel, however, in order to get the oxidation process started, a certain amount of energy has to be added to the mix - ideally, the spark is the catalyst. You want the spark to be the catalyst because this is what allows you to precisely control the timing of the combustion event. Obviously if the fuel/air mixture combusts at the wrong point in the cycle you can end up with virtually no power, or worse, you can damage the engine, exhaust, intake, etc. Having said that, you can start combustion without a spark plug. You can have a compression ratio so high, that the process of compression alone adds enough energy to ignite the mixture which is essentially how a diesel engine works, or as is usually the case with our engines, you can have hot-spots in the combustion chamber in the form of deposits (older engines), or using a spark plug with a too high heat rating. Imperfections in the combustion chamber can also act as hot spots which is partly why super high performance engines have polished combustion chambers.

 

This is where octane ratings become important. In short, the higher the octane, the more energy you need to add to begin combustion. This is why higher compression or forced induction engines need higher octane. Remember that boost actually raises the effective compression ratio. If you use low octane on a high compression engine, the act of compression can ignite the air-fuel mixture on its own - while it's still on the up-stroke, thus your engine is now trying to compress the combustion - not good. This is how you blow head gaskets, punch holes in pistons, etc. Using higher octane allows the air-fuel mixture to remain "stable" until the car's ignition system makes it burn.

 

Back to chemistry. O2 is the magic ingredient. If you have too much (lean), the fuel will burn completely which leads to high combustion chamber temps, which leads to melted parts, among other things. Having not enough O2 (rich) leaves left over fuel which can cause damage to the exhaust. It also robs power because it cools too much which hinders the combustion that can occur. Somewhere in the middle is the ideal ratio - usually 12:1 to 14:1 depending on the application. In this range, you get enough fuel burned to make the power, but there is also just enough left over to keep the temperature in check (this is why exhaust gas temperature is a good indicator of the quality of combustion).

 

Generally speaking, you want to run towards the rich side on forced induction/high compression engines, and you can get away with running on the lean side for naturally aspirated street cars like the Mustang - but you still need to make sure it's within safe tolerances which is why you need to tune these on the dyno with an experienced tuner. On that subject, canned tunes (mail order tunes) are good to get you running, but every engine is different, so you still need to get someone to do it "live" on your car.

 

THE BOTTOM LINE: Get a proper tune on the dyno by an experienced tuner. Many of us spend a lot of money on parts to go faster. Spend the other $500 (including the handheld tuner) to make everything work together so you get 100% of what you paid for in the parts.

[68fastback]

Dan - once again, I'm much obliged by your wisdom and articulation!

 

Everyone seems to have an opinion. The consensus seems to be The Tune! (and on a dyno)

 

Be assured that I'll see this through to some resolution and the numbers will rise.

 

You are the voice of reason, my man!

 

I know how much time it probably took you to write your response.

 

Know that you've given me some very expensive feedback! And - comfort in the fact that this issue will get resolved. Octane or not!

Stay tuned. My rear tires are going to be very warm - very soon!

 

Bryan

 

 

:happy feet: The RUFstang will have its day -- can't wait! :hyper: (<--oops, sorry for hyper dude ;-)

 

Then you'll see the dyno curves and ;-)

 

The torque won't be very flat (like a s/c motor) with those cams, but should give you a nice HP plateau wider that your gear spacing -- should make for some real fun

 

You'll have to take this guy with you just in case:

http://www.sportsonlyauction.com/Machine%20Gun%20Smiley.gif

 

.

[kraegar]

Actually, the spark is the catalyst. Fuels is what burns, not the air. The actual chemical process that is occuring is the oxidation of the fuel. The component of air that matters is the O2 as this is what is combining with the fuel, however, in order to get the oxidation process started, a certain amount of energy has to be added to the mix - ideally, the spark is the catalyst. You want the spark to be the catalyst because this is what allows you to precisely control the timing of the combustion event. Obviously if the fuel/air mixture combusts at the wrong point in the cycle you can end up with virtually no power, or worse, you can damage the engine, exhaust, intake, etc. Having said that, you can start combustion without a spark plug. You can have a compression ratio so high, that the process of compression alone adds enough energy to ignite the mixture which is essentially how a diesel engine works, or as is usually the case with our engines, you can have hot-spots in the combustion chamber in the form of deposits (older engines), or using a spark plug with a too high heat rating. Imperfections in the combustion chamber can also act as hot spots which is partly why super high performance engines have polished combustion chambers.

 

This is where octane ratings become important. In short, the higher the octane, the more energy you need to add to begin combustion. This is why higher compression or forced induction engines need higher octane. Remember that boost actually raises the effective compression ratio. If you use low octane on a high compression engine, the act of compression can ignite the air-fuel mixture on its own - while it's still on the up-stroke, thus your engine is now trying to compress the combustion - not good. This is how you blow head gaskets, punch holes in pistons, etc. Using higher octane allows the air-fuel mixture to remain "stable" until the car's ignition system makes it burn.

 

Back to chemistry. O2 is the magic ingredient. If you have too much (lean), the fuel will burn completely which leads to high combustion chamber temps, which leads to melted parts, among other things. Having not enough O2 (rich) leaves left over fuel which can cause damage to the exhaust. It also robs power because it cools too much which hinders the combustion that can occur. Somewhere in the middle is the ideal ratio - usually 12:1 to 14:1 depending on the application. In this range, you get enough fuel burned to make the power, but there is also just enough left over to keep the temperature in check (this is why exhaust gas temperature is a good indicator of the quality of combustion).

 

Generally speaking, you want to run towards the rich side on forced induction/high compression engines, and you can get away with running on the lean side for naturally aspirated street cars like the Mustang - but you still need to make sure it's within safe tolerances which is why you need to tune these on the dyno with an experienced tuner. On that subject, canned tunes (mail order tunes) are good to get you running, but every engine is different, so you still need to get someone to do it "live" on your car.

 

THE BOTTOM LINE: Get a proper tune on the dyno by an experienced tuner. Many of us spend a lot of money on parts to go faster. Spend the other $500 (including the handheld tuner) to make everything work together so you get 100% of what you paid for in the parts.

 

 

 

Stated very nicely! (And thanks for correcting me where needed!)

 

- Tony

[tjp80]

hello did you get your mustang at Cape fear Ford thanks Tom

[RUFDRAFT]

Hi - I bought it at Pecheles Ford here in Washington.

 

Thanks again guys for the tutorials. I've already got the SCT - so it might just be the dyno tune.

 

Waiting to hear from Brenspeed.

 

Need coffee.....