carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Here we go again with Vette vs Mustang stuff First of all, I own both which takes away the bias factor. I am an impartial judge. You cannot beat the GT500 on value, period. ADM you say, it was just last year you couldn't touch a ZO6 for under 20k plus MSRP. The GT 500 is a four place performance coupe that with 5k you can have nearly 700 hp on pump gas To do that with the ZO6 will cost you at least twice that. You have to give each car its due in its own catagory. If you don't your wasting your breath. Besides, both are American iron, well one is. Regarding Car and Driver, go back to the orginal comparo with the Porsche the Ferrerri and the ZO6. The vette out performed them all significantly, speed, braking, cornering, full economy and cost. It still lost because of emphirical factors and a limp wristed Porche wannabe that just did not like the vetter cause it was Amerotrash. Gimme a break. On the same note, a Mustang would never win over a Vette in Car and Driver cuz it just wouldn't be proper. Yeah the Vette is cool but it is not a Mustang so quit selecting your criteria to compare apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUFDRAFT Posted June 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Extra Butter, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBanger Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 As soon as I saw your first post about C&D, I knew we'd have some responses, SB. I'm not going to keep going on about this test, but I will make one comment. Why test the GT500 against a Corvette that stickers for almost twice the price of the Shelby? (45k vs 75k?) Put $30k into performance mods for the Shelby (road course mods) and I think the results of the test would be very different. For some reason, C&D loves to compare Vettes and Shelbys. They are very different cars targeted to very different buyers. Matter of fact - put $30k in mods in a regular GT and I think it would run with a Z06. (with a better f/r weight bias). And that's all I'm going to say about that! One thing I think is ironic is that I feel a much higher perecentage of Mustang owners DRIVE their cars vs Vette owners. I've yet to have a Vette owner engage me (other than trouble-maker SB!) Ruf, I hate to disagree with you (you know I don't but I had to say it anyway) but the C&D Lightning Lap is not a comparison of one car against another, but all cars tested using the same test broken down into specific subcategories based on the MSRP of the vehicle. In other words every car is compared against the other, but each is grouped into a price category and judged within that category based on the price of the vehicle. The GT500 and the C6 Corvette are in the same price category (MSRP $30,000-$60,000). The Z06 is in a different category (MSRP $60,000 to $120,000). You also have to remember that these tests are OEM cars. Mods to any car in any category could change the results, but C&D isn't comparing modified cars. For the record the C6 Z51 was quicker than the GT500, both in the same category. The Z06 was quicker than both the Shelby and the C6, but it is in a different price category, although not by much. Vettes and Shelbys are different cars, but a C6 and a Shelby are in the same category based on price for purposes of the C&D comparison. I submit to you that with the premium Shelby owners are paying for their cars that they are paying as much or more for a Shelby on average than most people are for a C6. To me that makes comparing them relevant. Let's look more at the numbers. Say someone buys a Shelby for 55k and someone buys a Z06 for 70K. That's 15K difference. Will 15K in mods to the Shelby make up 8 seconds on the track? It very well might. If someone buys a GT for 25K and spends 40K on mods will it run with a Z06? It very well might as well. The problem is you are not comparing OEM to OEM. There is always something out there faster like PK says. I like the comparison because I think a road course is a good measure of a car's overall capabilities. By grouping cars into price categories you can determine which cars are the best performers within a price category and overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 I'll take a box of Dots and a large Coke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 I guess my F-250 turbo diesel crew cab dually with 4 wheel drive and navigation falls into this same category? Whoda thunk it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBanger Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 You have to give each car its due in its own catagory. If you don't your wasting your breath. Besides, both are American iron, well one is. Regarding Car and Driver, go back to the orginal comparo with the Porsche the Ferrerri and the ZO6. The vette out performed them all significantly, speed, braking, cornering, full economy and cost. It still lost because of emphirical factors and a limp wristed Porche wannabe that just did not like the vetter cause it was Amerotrash. Carnut you are exactly right! That is why I like the Lightning Lap comparison. It is not subjective. It is based purely on performance and cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Carnut you are exactly right! That is why I like the Lightning Lap comparison. It is not subjective. It is based purely on performance and cost. We are STILL comparing apples, oranges and turbo diesels. To throw a little gas on this, many magazines have shown the vette just a tad slower than the C-6 including Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords. You will also note I have not compared either car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBanger Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 We are STILL comparing apples, oranges and turbo diesels. To throw a little gas on this, many magazines have shown the vette just a tad slower than the C-6 including Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords. You will also note I have not compared either car. I have not compared either car as well. I have just stated what the C&D results were and the reasons I like the comparison test. You guys are the ones making this a Vette vs. Shelby debate. I assume you mean the C6 was a tad slower than the Shelby in the other magazines. I have seen the comparisons go both ways. Of course if they are Ford related magazines how does that impact their credibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 I have not compared either car as well. I have just stated what the C&D results were and the reasons I like the comparison test. You guys are the ones making this a Vette vs. Shelby debate. I assume you mean the C6 as a tad slower than the Shelby in the other magazines. I have seen them both ways. Ok as long as you are not comparing, although I swore I saw "comparing" in your post, I am ok with your liking the comparison test. :rolleyes: I would like to state there was no Shelby vs Vette debate, my argument was "you can't compare the two". Remember I have both and I am unbiased. If you asked me to pick between the two, I could not. I want to see my turbo-diesel in next years comparo. :elefant: Thanks for the spirited debate, this one will never be won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUFDRAFT Posted June 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 ADM's and Car & Driver have nothing to with the issue at hand. Who would compare a $45k four seat car to a $75k two seat car? No one who's clear thinking. Also - C&D's pricing categories is crap. $30-60k in the same bracket? BS. Finally - who gives a rats azz about lap times? How many of us drive our cars on race courses? If someone thinks they're getting $15-20k more fun out of their Vette than my Mustang - they're full of it! I drive my car, daddy! And I get priceless amounts of street props! Average people can relate to the Mustang. Can you dig that? :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBanger Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Ok as long as you are not comparing, although I swore I saw "comparing" in your post, I am ok with your liking the comparison test. :rolleyes: I would like to state there was no Shelby vs Vette debate, my argument was "you can't compare the two". Remember I have both and I am unbiased. If you asked me to pick between the two, I could not. I want to see my turbo-diesel in next years comparo. :elefant: Thanks for the spirited debate, this one will never be won. I have liked the comparison test since I first saw it in an issue in 2006. I was glad to see that they had updated it. I am sort of in the same boat since I have a 350Z and a Vette. They are two entirely different cars, but I like them both and would have a hard time choosing between the two. My Z is highly modified from a performance standpoint and my Vette is almost stock from a performance standpoint. I would really love to know what my Z would run on the VIR course. A stock 2006 Z ran the course in 3:12.5 in 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APPLESREDGT500 Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Ok as long as you are not comparing, although I swore I saw "comparing" in your post, I am ok with your liking the comparison test. :rolleyes: I would like to state there was no Shelby vs Vette debate, my argument was "you can't compare the two". Remember I have both and I am unbiased. If you asked me to pick between the two, I could not. I want to see my turbo-diesel in next years comparo. :elefant: Thanks for the spirited debate, this one will never be won. Did I hear APPLES?? I did'nt do it, say it, nope not me, nice to have an unbiased owner of both though, I'm sure we will see a comparison with Super Snake, KR, new Viper, ZO6....etc...down the road. It happens only because no camaro, challenger, firebird, or trans am anymore for now. Really APPLES TO APPLES Ford GT vs Z06 is more like it, the GT500 is definitly a different car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 more Coke too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUFDRAFT Posted June 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 I have liked the comparison test since I first saw it in an issue in 2006. I was glad to see that they had updated it. I am sort of in the same boat since I have a 350Z and a Vette. They are two entirely different cars, but I like them both and would have a hard time choosing between the two. My Z is highly modified from a performance standpoint and my Vette is almost stock from a performance standpoint. I would really love to know what my Z would run on the VIR course. A stock 2006 Z ran the course in 3:12.5 in 2006. Then Run It! Chris can drive your Vette up at the same time and you can compare! How are the Z and the Vette "entirely different" cars? Your Z probably has about 350 hp and the Vette 400. Both 2 seaters. What's so different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBanger Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 ADM's and Car & Driver have nothing to with the issue at hand. Who would compare a $45k four seat car to a $75k two seat car? No one who's clear thinking. Also - C&D's pricing categories is crap. $30-60k in the same bracket? BS. Finally - who gives a rats azz about lap times? How many of us drive our cars on race courses? If someone thinks they're getting $15-20k more fun out of their Vette than my Mustang - they're full of it! I drive my car, daddy! And I get priceless amounts of street props! Average people can relate to the Mustang. Can you dig that? :happy feet: Ruf, What are you talking about? It is a comparison, not one car versus another unelss you want to make it that. You are the one comparing a Shelby with a Z06. You may not drive on a race course but like I said before how a car performs on a road course is a good measure of its OVERALL performance capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUFDRAFT Posted June 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Did I hear APPLES?? I did'nt do it, say it, nope not me, nice to have an unbiased owner of both though, I'm sure we will see a comparison with Super Snake, KR, new Viper, ZO6....etc...down the road. It happens only because no camaro, challenger, firebird, or trans am anymore for now. Really APPLES TO APPLES Ford GT vs Z06 is more like it, the GT500 is definitly a different car. rut roh - Ford Gt = 165k - - Z06= 75k. Apples to apples? Nope. I'll take 2 Z06's and an extra large order of fries, thanks. Bang for de Buck, Mahn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 I have liked the comparison test since I first saw it in an issue in 2006. I was glad to see that they had updated it. I am sort of in the same boat since I have a 350Z and a Vette. They are two entirely different cars, but I like them both and would have a hard time choosing between the two. My Z is highly modified from a performance standpoint and my Vette is almost stock from a performance standpoint. I would really love to know what my Z would run on the VIR course. A stock 2006 Z ran the course in 3:12.5 in 2006. Now you went and did it SB, just when things were getting quiet, you had to throw in a highly modified Z. :angry2: I can't help you now bro. This is a Mustang site and you're on your own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APPLESREDGT500 Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Then Run It! Chris can drive your Vette up at the same time and you can compare! How are the Z and the Vette "entirely different" cars? Your Z probably has about 350 hp and the Vette 400. Both 2 seaters. What's so different? I'd like to see a Ford GT in that mix to, it's a 2 seater........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBanger Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Then Run It! Chris can drive your Vette up at the same time and you can compare! How are the Z and the Vette "entirely different" cars? Your Z probably has about 350 hp and the Vette 400. Both 2 seaters. What's so different? For starters one is a NA six cylinder and the other is an NA V8. The MSRP of the Z was $20,000 less than the Vette. The Vette is stock and the Z is not. And so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 I ready now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 For starters one is a NA six cylinder and the other is an NA V8. The MSRP of the Z was $20,000 less than the Vette. The Vette is stock and the Z is not. And so on. and its highly modified too, but were not comparing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBanger Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 I'd like to see a Ford GT in that mix to, it's a 2 seater........ C&D tested one in the original 2006 Lightning Lap comparison. The GT's time was 3:00.7. It fell into the LL4 category ($120,000 to $240,000) category since its MSRP was $153,345. That's twice the cost of a Z06 for comparison sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUFDRAFT Posted June 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Ruf, What are you talking about? It is a comparison, not one car versus another unelss you want to make it that. You are the one comparing a Shelby with a Z06. You may not drive on a race course but like I said before how a car performs on a road course is a good measure of its OVERALL performance capabilities. And I'm talking about value. Value. Even if you compare a C6 to a Shelby - (a base model vette) - you can't. These cars are too different. How many married couples with 2 kids have a C6 for their family car? None. How many Vette drivers own just one car? I suspect not many. So - why compare 2 cars that are designed for very different situations? Vettes are toys. Mustangs are daily drivers. Bang for the buck, no comparo! I love your Z and your C6 - but they shouldn't be compared to a Mustang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Vettes are for boys. Mustangs are for men. I get more chicks with the Stang, Bang for the buck, no comparo! I love hookers and your C6 - but they shouldn't be compared to a Mustang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBanger Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 And I'm talking about value. Value. Even if you compare a C6 to a Shelby - (a base model vette) - you can't. These cars are too different. How many married couples with 2 kids have a C6 for their family car? None. How many Vette drivers own just one car? I suspect not many. So - why compare 2 cars that are designed for very different situations? Vettes are toys. Mustangs are daily drivers. Bang for the buck, no comparo! I love your Z and your C6 - but they shouldn't be compared to a Mustang. Ruf, I agree with you about the Mustang. But I submit the same question to you about the Shelby. How many people who have a Shelby have just one car or use it as their daily driver? My whole point with the Lightning Lap comparison is that I like the way it judges PERFORMANCE cars based purely on PERFORMANCE and COST. Not the way it looks, whether it seats two or four or whether its wheels look better. Those are personal preferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Ruf, I agree with you about the Mustang. But I submit the same question to you about the Shelby. How many people who have a Shelby have just one car or use it as their daily driver? My whole point with the Lightning Lap comparison is that I like the way it judges PERFORMANCE cars based purely on PERFORMANCE and COST. Not the way it looks, whether it seats two or four or whether its wheels look better. But we are not comparing here, are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StangBanger Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 But we are not comparing here, are we? We are comparing PERFORMANCE CARS, not just Vette and Mustang. You guys continue to make it a Vette vs. Mustang comparo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUFDRAFT Posted June 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Bad Nut! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APPLESREDGT500 Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 But we are not comparing here, are we? I need salt please......more butter too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnut Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Its soooo easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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