2007 Hybrid Shelby GT!

[SCGT500]

I guess I've been here too long, I see these things as being pretty true....

 

 

 

And the fact that some of these posts will mysteriously disappear.

[SCGT500]

[Paleoc]

Ok, so Mr Shelby adds his logo to a Paxton supercharger, and you or your mechanic installs it after it leaves the Shelby shop and it's some how more of a Shelby? Replace a Quadra Jet on a 327 Impala SS with a Holly and it's less of a Chevy? We buy these cars because they look good and perform great, then we tinker because we want MORE! I've heard, but I don't know for a fact, that the roots type superchargers make more power than the centrifugal, and build boost faster and at a lower RPM.

Roots jump to full boost (5 psi) at lower RPM and then the boost remains the same. Centrifugals build boost throughout the RPM range reaching maximum boost (9 psi) at the top RPM. Because the engine cannot handle as much boost at lower RPM, maximum boost and thus power is less but comes on earlier. However, it gives a earlier and harder power jump which makes it more impressive on the street. Centrifigals (and turbos) produce their maximum boost at maximum RPM and thus produce more power as they can go to higher boost levels. The reason a car with a Roush is warrantied is because it has a milder level of boost.

 

Is that Paxton inter-cooled? The Roush is.

Yes the Paxton is intercooled.

 

Wasn't the centrifugal charger developed to be easier to install?

From what I have read, it appears that roots are a little easier to install. They don't require all the extra brackets or the oil from the oil pan.

 

I find it hard to believe it can move the same volume of air at the same RPM, but I'm no expert!

The Roush tops out at 5 psi boost while Paxton runs to 9 psi or so.

[68fastback]

Snipped from Whipple's web site...

 

"In 1991, Whipple Superchargers found a Swedish company named Opcon Autorotor. Until this time, Sprintex was the only manufacturer of the twin-screw type supercharger, but Autorotor, a sister company of the pioneering company Svenska Rotor Maskiner (SRM) had a larger variety of sizes to choose from and later generation rotor technology. By this time, the screw compressor had become commonly known as the “Whipple Charger” and quickly became a must have item for performance enthusiasts.

 

After Autorotor and SRM split, Whipple decided to stay with SRM and their newly formed company Lysholm Technologies. This relationship worked out very well and led to many successful twin-screw applications. With the partnership of Eaton Corporation, the Lysholm compressor made tremendous strides in dependability and performance. In 2004, the Lysholm/Eaton screw compressor was utilized on the Ford GT super car and Mercury Racing High Performance engines, a first for Lysholm"

 

Now this does not specifically state Eaton bought Whipple, but they do own the patent on the Lysholm technology today, a must have in order for Eaton to continue it's world wide ventures. Eaton is a very large company, 55,000 employees in 29 countries, and Eaton prospers by buying up smaller companies, taking them on as "partners", and allowing them to continue on as an independent arm of Eaton. Moreover, many internal parts of the "Whipple Charger" are Eaton designed and supplied components.

That's just saying that Eaton formed a partnership to bring their awesome engineering prowess to bear on helping Lysholm take their technology out of the dark ages. The result of that partnership is why the F-GT uses the rotors resulting from that partnership. I don't think Eaton has ever had any ownership in Whipple.

 

Yes, the TVS technology is Eaton's, but the blower is advertised as "engineered by Roush for Ford Racing", and it wears the FRP label. This blower is an upgrade to the GT 500 Eaton powered 5.4L-4V, which FRP does not specifically identify. There is a picture of the GT 500 at the top of the page, but FRP calls it the "2007-08 SVT Mustang." Why? I have no idea, must be something to do with licensing agreements.

 

Like I posted earlier, all this outsourcing and partnerships can be confusing to the consumer. Just because the blower in this thread says Roush shouldn't be a big deal, there is a lot more of Roush engineering in the SGT than many expect. Roush has a long history of engineering, testing and development for Ford, and I am sure Roush will continue on for a long time to come.

 

No mention of costs yet, but if it will save me 1K, what the blower says on top is seemingly unimportant. I'll just cover it with an STP sticker.

 

Nah...J/K...I favor centrifugals anyway...

 

I think Harrop Australia did the initial application development on Eaton's TVS (which is a major s/c technology breakthru, imo) and Roush did the firmware/tune development uner contract to Ford/FRP for the FRP-TVS kit for the GT500 (they also developed the Condor [5.4 GT500] engine build development book under contract to Ford for the GT500 that Ford Romeo uses).

 

The FRP TVS kit is specifically for the GT500. FRP refers to the GT500 as the '07/'08 SVT Mustang (and in some places '07/'08 SVT Cobra) because that's what it really is. I think "Shelby" is just 'model-branding' that's unrelated to engineering as far as FRP is concerned.

 

Yeah, it gets confusing for sure. The Roush Whipple kit and the FRP Whipple kit for the 4.6 are essentially the same pieces from what I understand, one with a specially logo'd Roush case and the other with the FRP label-insert and packaging. It's just not worth spending scarce Ford/SVT engineering resources on tasks that can be cost-effectively contracted out to such competant and trusted folks as Roush engineering.

 

FRP was also evaluating the Whipple for the 4.6 as far back as summer/fall of '06. It was this latter testing that opened FRP's eyes to how well the 4.6 was holding up at elevated output levels -- original plans for the Whipple kit for the 4.6 anticipated limiting the power to 400 (or less) from what I'd heard at the time. Eventually FRP convinced Ford on the merit of two kits (just diff tunes), one at 400 (which after painfully long testing Ford accepted for warranty-cert.) and one at 500 (no engine warranty). That whole process took half of foreever, as I understand it, because warranty nums must be baked into the product sevice plan and that can't be done until Ford can predict what the implicatons will be. Once it's baked in there's no going back and re-costing and can therefore eat into profitability -- a risk Ford is rightly loathe to take, hence it took FRP forever to get the Whipple for the 4.6 thru the process.

 

My understanding is the FRP Eaton-TVS kit for the GT500 had a similarly protracted warranty-cert process (605HP) for essentially similar considerations. I can't help but think (dunno) that the TVS would have been standard on the KR had the process permitted a quicker cert such that waranty costs could have been projected earlier. Who knows? Maybe will ship from the factory on a mustang at some point? Would sure make a nice '10MY program 'kicker,' don't you think? <lol>

 

Thankfully, at least both are now on the FRP shelf. :happy feet:

[LuLu]

My compliments, Dan, for a respectful exchange of thought. Obviously, we won't agree, but how we disagree is what is important here.

 

Partnership...Ownership...Marriage...Call it what you want. I would love to see which way the money flows between the "partners" here, this would be telling.

 

Nonetheless, Eaton is in bed with Whipple and Roush, and Roush is sleeping with Eaton and Whipple. Like you say, it's okay "as long as the product is on the shelf". Just hope none of them wake up with a rash...

 

Roots jump to full boost (5 psi) at lower RPM and then the boost remains the same. Centrifugals build boost throughout the RPM range reaching maximum boost (9 psi) at the top RPM. Because the engine cannot handle as much boost at lower RPM, maximum boost and thus power is less but comes on earlier. However, it gives a earlier and harder power jump which makes it more impressive on the street. Centrifigals (and turbos) produce their maximum boost at maximum RPM and thus produce more power as they can go to higher boost levels. The reason a car with a Roush is warrantied is because it has a milder level of boost.

 

Yes the Paxton is intercooled.

 

From what I have read, it appears that roots are a little easier to install. They don't require all the extra brackets or the oil from the oil pan.

 

The Roush tops out at 5 psi boost while Paxton runs to 9 psi or so.

You are almost perfectly correct, Paleoc. My thoughts in reply, and not in any order...

 

Anyone NOT employing intercooling (air-to-air, or, water-to-air) is missing out on a lot of power and this is just stupid. If you choose to supercharge, intercool. Period.

 

Having installed more than a few superchargers on the 4.6L modular engine, the "oil supply" issue is rather minor. I'd rather have fresh, clean and cool oil splashing on my blower gears than employ a "permanent" oil that needs refreshing every 10K miles or so. The oil pan tap is a return line, and if the blower ever comes off, it's a simple task to plug the drain. Hell, just change the pan? It's under 100 bucks at the dealership.

 

It is true that centrifugal superchargers produce boost well past the stock 4.6-3V redline. This is more power at the top end, and it's time to climb off the dyno and get back to the real world at a race track near you.

 

Drag racing...I've watched this countless times, drove through it often. 1/8 mile contests will be won by the R/TS/PD style of supercharging. Kenne Bell, Whipple, Eaton, and so on...Pick one, they all get down to real-time business in short order. Impressive 60' times and impressive MPH, for 1/8 mile racing.

 

1/4 mile contests lean the other way. You need to read a few 1/4 mile time slips to appreciate this, but the MPH gains in the second 1/8 mile with a centrifugal blower (Paxton/Vortech/ProCharger) tells the real-time true story. A R/TS/PD blower flatens out at high RPM, while a centrifugal blower does not. At this point, it is more about rear end gearing and suspension tuning, than it is about your choice in superchargers. However, (all other things being equal) a centrifugal blower (properly tuned) will eat up a R/TS/PD blower car on every pass. Not my opinion, just a sum-total of my observations at the track.

 

Moreover, "heat-soak" from back-to-back passes affects the engine internally with a R/TS/PD blower, while a centrifugal off loads that heat away from engine internals. All I'm saying here, is that each style of blower has it benefits and liabilities. Pick one, supercharging is what counts.

 

Ease of install is about the same on all the styles available, however, the R/TS/PD blowers are looked upon as "internal" modifications, and there may be no going back to OEM specs, depending on your install method/manner. I think some cutting on the frame/core support is required, plus, you lose the strut tower brace (or so I have read). OTOH...Centrifugals are exclusively bolt-ons that do not require any permanent modification to the car. Thus, one style allows you to disassemble the kit and re-sell it seperately when your love affair is over, the other is not such a clean get-away.

 

AutoCross/Road Racing...This style of racing requires that you stay in your actual power band, and again, rear end and tranny gearing, as well as suspension setup, is key to winning. Every car will be slightly different, but I estimate the power band to be 3 to 5K RPM, and the SGT a "natural" for this competition. At least this PRM spectrum seems to be the norm, and both styles of supercharging produce very similar power here...Coin toss?

 

"Stop-light Gran Prix?"...Again, the R/TS/PD wins out with it's initial low-end power, but you need to control that power, or, lose this contest by burning up at the light. I've never had that problem with a centrifugal and the right tires. Once I'm up on the cams, I'm gone, and a R/TS/PD blower car will not catch me.

 

Just my .02C, gents, happy motoring...

[avidShelby]

Yeah i'm not into the whole "you can only put it on your car if it comes from SPP" thing. I've always liked the Roush S/C and especially the Magnacharger because they both provide warranties. I know the twin screws are more efficient, so I can't put a Saleen on either because it doesn't have the Shelby seal of approval? I'll become an outcast in the Shelby Owner's world?

 

I have a hood not ever seen on a Shelby. So if I use it I will be looked down upon, like a some 1960's Shelby owners look down at the new GT 500 and SGT owners? If I don't use a Shelby style wheel from SPP or American Racing, people will turn their nose up at me? Using a Saleen watts linkage is blasphemy?

 

Please....Give me a break. If you think this way you are a SAI/SPP marketing dream come true.

 

+1

[im4seven]

The Hybrid makes the pilgramage! The guy giving the tour did a doulble take when teh hood was popped, LOL!!!!

[stump_breaker]

I thought it was a requirement to be a Team Shelby member? :tease:

 

Actually all that requires is $50 a year and that's pretty much it.....

[SWEDEMAN]

Ok, so Mr Shelby adds his logo to a Paxton supercharger, and you or your mechanic installs it after it leaves the Shelby shop and it's some how more of a Shelby? Replace a Quadra Jet on a 327 Impala SS with a Holly and it's less of a Chevy? We buy these cars because they look good and perform great, then we tinker because we want MORE! I've heard, but I don't know for a fact, that the roots type superchargers make more power than the centrifugal, and build boost faster and at a lower RPM. Is that Paxton inter-cooled? The Roush is.

Wasn't the centrifugal charger developed to be easier to install? I find it hard to believe it can move the same volume of air at the same RPM, but I'm no expert!

 

Don't get me wrong I'm a BIG Shelby fan and have been ever since 1987 when I bought my GLHS. And before I get any grief for that let me remind you that the manufacturer of record is Shelby Automobiles, not Dodge. The car is titled as a Shelby, and the MSO was from Shelby. So what's more of a Shelby, the GLHS or the SGT? Many people upgraded there GLHS w/ the Getrag transmission, was it then less of a Shelby?

 

And lets not forget that the car can always be returned to original condition by swapping the parts back.

 

Don't let me catch anybody putting any Non-Shelby nitrous in their car, LOL!!

 

Fom the Archives!

 

 

Sorry but you took me response wrong. I am saying that those two are not a match. If you own a Shelby why would you put on a Rousch SC? Why didn't you just go with a Rousch 427? And you did this just for the warranty? That is not a great reason to do this in my book, but it is your $$ so spend it how you want.