Gun Oil Posted May 27, 2008 Report Share Posted May 27, 2008 I have been doing some additional reasearch after making some mis-statements of my own in other threads.... FoMoCo has specified that we must conform to "non-typical" industry standard motor oil for our GT500 motors... Meeting this "Unicorn" like WSS-M2C931-B specification is the root of all of our collective issues.... I have read in another post that Conoco Phillips refines motor oil for Ford, and I personally have confirmed that with a Product engineer at the Phillips 66 hotline....He did say that it really isn't supposed to be stated, but that "YES" they make the 5w-50 that we thirst for.... I also read in another post that the party in question claims to have been using Phillips Trop-Artic branded 5W-50 in his GT500, and that it meets spec.....I have attached the most current spec sheet form Phiilps Lubricants dated 10/07: Trop-Artic Fulll Synthetic Specs If you will note, they no longer even list 5w-50 as an availble product....! I had also sourced another Phillips PDF that was dated 2004, and they DID offer a 5w-50 at that time, but it only referenced the FoMoCo WSS-M2C931-A Spec at that time.... Another call is placed to the Phillips Hotline, and I got the same Engineer that I had talked with earlier today....I pointed out the PDF's & he sincerly apologized, and said that Phiilips discontinued the 5w-50 Full Synthetic early LAST YEAR! But he did re-affirm that they are infact the source point for Motorcraft 5w-50 Full Synthetic Motor Oil So can anyone out there provide proof positive that another brand of motor oil for sale to the general public meets the FoMoCo WSS-M2C931-B specification ?? I know for a fact that currently Mobil-1, Castrol, Pennzoil, Quaker State, Valvoline, Kendall, Unocal, and Trop-Artic do not. Amsoil doesn't even list a 5w-50 on their website.....neither does Royal Purple. So we now have a legal issue in front of us. Ford is MANDATING the use of a particular product, that is only available from them. This is a potentialy blatent violation of the Magnuson-Moss Act. I am going to site the main area of this Federal Law for your viewing pleasure....the "Tie-In Sales" section: "Tie-In Sales" Provisions Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions. In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty. While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things. While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty. Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not allowed, you can include such a provision in your warranty if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the FTC that your product will not work properly without a specified item or service. If you believe that this is the case, you should contact the warranty staff of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection for information on how to apply for a waiver of the tie-in sales prohibition. The last section could be an escape clause for Ford....but without Legal review....(I neither play a Lawyer on TV, nor claim I was one in another life....) I will not make that determination. Here is the entire Act from the FTC Website: Magnuson-Moss Act So where are we with all this crap that is starting to make my brain hurt? Right back to square one....having to go to your local Ford Dealer for oil. I still find it odd that Phillips 66 discontinued the 5w-50 at about the same time we all needed it, and that no other oil company out there has been able to obtain the Ford Certification.....hmmmmmmm..... Not sure if the potential availability from other sources like K-Manparts changes this debate any....the fact remails, "B" Spec is "B" Spec, and your warrnaty is in jepardy if you are using other brands that are "A" Spec....and only one BRAND of Motor Oil meets this requirement. I am going to continue some additional research on this with my sources inside of Pennzoil to find out exactly what the process is for getting the "B" rating to meet Ford's Spec....if nothing else, I have learned a lot today. Class dismissed. (PS....a little about me. I have been a Product Engineer for American Honda, a Parts & Service Director for Acura, and also a line tech in years prior to this. I have been self employed for the last 20 years as a Franchisee with Oil Can Henry's . We service over 20,000 cars a year at my Center in Washington State, and have used Pennzoil products for the duration.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrayS Posted May 27, 2008 Report Share Posted May 27, 2008 Nope, cuz it used to be the same thing with the them days new (back in 04) VW PD TDI's (diesel engine). There was only one oil available in NA that was VW 505 01 approved and only the dealer had it. Was specially made by Castrol. This is not the first time that things like this happend. Now there are various sources available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted May 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Still doesn't make it right that we are forced to purchase one product to keep our warranties in force. There have been lawsuits on this very issue, and the mandators were forced to provided the "mandated" goods free of charge. VW ended up having to release the formulation requirements for the TDI oil....they were sued....otherwise they would still hold the formulation. It all came down to warranty mandates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
07SHELBY GT Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I'm absolutely certain that Syntec among others would do a fine job BUT,If you ever have a warranty concern you are currently screwed so I bent over at the dealer for some gold cap 5-50 at $8.00 a bottle,OUCH!Hopefully they will get all of this crap hammered out soon so I can save a buck or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcthorne Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I would suggest you do some reading and reasearch of your own on the differences between the A and B specs. I did and now prefer the A spec Castrol. Where the EPA and federal mandates are involved, newer does not always mean better. There is nothing preventing any oil manufacture from submitting for testing to the B spec if they wish. Market factors suggest they do not wish. Motorcraft is NOT Ford and is available through many channels other than your Ford dealer so there is no 'tie in sales' violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gradona Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Motorcraft is NOT Ford and is available through many channels other than your Ford dealer so there is no 'tie in sales' violation. You are correct when you say that Motorcraft is available through many channels but Motorcraft is, most definitely, FORD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted May 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 I would suggest you do some reading and reasearch of your own on the differences between the A and B specs. I did and now prefer the A spec Castrol. Where the EPA and federal mandates are involved, newer does not always mean better. There is nothing preventing any oil manufacture from submitting for testing to the B spec if they wish. Market factors suggest they do not wish. Motorcraft is NOT Ford and is available through many channels other than your Ford dealer so there is no 'tie in sales' violation. I honestly think if you could provide the Forum with the knowledge you have discovered, it would help the Forum as a whole understand the A vs B issues.... I have heard the EPA thing before, and I don't buy it until I read it somewhere (provide a valid link so we can all learn).... Reason why? Ford is the only company the uses this rating Spec. No other Company out there is subjected to this. How could it be an EPA Federal Mandate, and only one Company, and ONE powerplant is subjected to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdwaterHotrod Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 OK, Coldy is going to somemore with photographic evidence. I have a photo of both the A-spec & B-spec oil side by side. (read the labels in the photo) On the Left is the The Motorcraft 5W-50 Full Synthetic Motor Oil (Ford spec WSS-M2C931-A specification) is Designed, Engineered & recommended for use in the 550 HP (FORD GT). Now look at the GOLD label on the Right which is the Motorcraft 5W-50 Full Synthetic Motor Oil (Ford spec WSS-M2C931-B specification) Designed, Engineered & recommended for use in the FORD GT and SHELBY GT500 Both bottles have the same UPC Bar code & numbers. Both Bottles have the markings (XO-5W50-QGT) both bottles also has the added (ML-1234) added to it? But the new Spec-B oil says it's a product of KOREA! IMHO if the (spec A) oil is allowed to be used in an ALL Aluminum 5.4L supercharged motor which is basicly our motor with a cast iron block, what added properties are added to the ( spec-B ) oil & for what reasons when they are nearly identicial motors? IMHO again if spec-A oil is OK to use in the Ford GT then use that spec oil number & specification number to cross reference it to your favorite brand of oil that complies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted May 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 OK, Coldy is going to somemore with photographic evidence I have a photo of both the A-spec & B-spec oil side by side. (read the labels in the photo) On the right is the The Motorcraft 5W-50 Full Synthetic Motor Oil (Ford spec WSS-M2C931-A specification) is Designed, Engineered & recommended for use in the 550 HP (FORD GT). Now look at the GOLD label on the left which is the Motorcraft 5W-50 Full Synthetic Motor Oil (Ford spec WSS-M2C931-B specification) Designed, Engineered & recommended for use in the FORD GT and SHELBY GT500 Both bottles have the same UPC Bar code & numbers. Both Bottles have the markings (XO-5W50-QGT) but the new spec B oil bottle also has the added (ML-1234) added to it? IMHO if the (spec A) oil is allowed to be used in an ALL Aluminum 5.4L supercharged motor which is basicly our motor with a cast iron block, what added properties are added to the ( spec-B ) oil & for what reasons when they are nearly identicial motors? IMHO again if spec-A oil is OK to use in the Ford GT then use that spec oil number & specification number to cross reference it to your favorite brand of oil that complies. Like I had said in my 1st post Conoco Phillips has discontinued the A spec oil under their branding, and never came out with the B spec under their label.... I would guess that the A spec is superceeded to the B Spec by Ford..... The other BIG difference in your 2 qts of oil, if you will note the API SL vs SM rating.....SM is the latest and greatest rating and replaces SL ratings from the API Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted May 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Coldy.....does that label on the B spec bottle say "Product of Korea"? I never knew that there was oil in Korea? Interesting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdwaterHotrod Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 YES! use the screen magnafication button on your lower right hand portion of the screen, by defualt it should say 100% with a little magnafying glass next to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6-Speed Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 Coldy.....does that label on the B spec bottle say "Product of Korea"? I never knew that there was oil in Korea? Interesting..... Here's the label for the Motorcraft 5W-50, which identifies the source: 5w50.pdf 5w50.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted May 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Funny side bar..... I ordered 3 cases of this Liquid Gold from a Ford Dealer here in the area, and after picking it up, I opened the box and noted that the box was the OLD SPEC oil with the API "SL" rating! Luckily Conoco Phillips is too cheapo to throw away past dated Cardboard as the bottles in the box are the "new" stuff. :beerchug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Doctor Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Funny side bar..... I ordered 3 cases of this Liquid Gold from a Ford Dealer here in the area, and after picking it up, I opened the box and noted that the box was the OLD SPEC oil with the API "SL" rating! Luckily Conoco Phillips is too cheapo to throw away past dated Cardboard as the bottles in the box are the "new" stuff. :beerchug: How much per quart did they rape you, err, charge you for? I checked a local Independent who wanted $8.62 plus tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted May 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 How much per quart did they rape you, err, charge you for? I checked a local Independent who wanted $8.62 plus tax. I have an automotive business, and was able to purchase via the wholesale desk.....the price varied quite a bit from Dealer to Dealer....I paid $7.05 a qt, but was quoted as high as $9.64 a qt WHOLESALE! Funny thing is, the Dealer that I purchased from only retails the oil at $9.28 a qt if you walk in off the street..... The good price was from Harris Ford in Lynnwood WA The Anal "blood letting" was from Bickford Ford in Snohomish WA Your $8.62 is a good price for over the counter..... I did check the online source referenced earlier, and to get 20 quarts hipped to WA State was $39.00 FedEx Ground shipping PLUS the cost of the oil! Almost $2.00 a qy did not pencil out, even though they have the best per qt price I have seen..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilman Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Try k-mansparts.com, they were listing the motorcraft 5W50 at $6.99/gt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted May 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Try k-mansparts.com, they were listing the motorcraft 5W50 at $6.99/gt. That is the Online Vendor I was refering to...... Like I said.....$39.00 to ship 20 qts to Seattle! I was able to purchase at $7.05 a qt with no sales tax as it will be a resale item at my business, and carried inmy inventory... I guess if you are close to K-man......it makes some sense..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Doctor Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 Try k-mansparts.com, they were listing the motorcraft 5W50 at $6.99/gt. That's supposedly the "A" spec; not the "B" spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted May 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 That's supposedly the "A" spec; not the "B" spec. I'll bet they haven't updated the picture to relfect the gold label & capped bottles....kind of like the Way Ford & Conoco have not updated the cardboard cases they ship the B Spec oil in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Doctor Posted May 29, 2008 Report Share Posted May 29, 2008 I'll bet they haven't updated the picture to relfect the gold label & capped bottles....kind of like the Way Ford & Conoco have not updated the cardboard cases they ship the B Spec oil in! I'll bet it's all B.S. and it's the same oil in different containers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted June 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 I sent a question into the Motorcraft MSDS desk a couple of weeks ago....they kindly replied today with some additonal information about the Motorcraft 5w-50 Synthetic: My Question to them: Feedback on which Product?: XO-5W50-QGT Feedback: Could you please give an explanation as to these two Ford rating specs for the 5w-50 Synthetic Motor Oil? WSS-M2C931-A WSS-M2C931-B What is the main difference between an "A" and "B" product? What exactly is this specification (WSS-M2C931-B), and why is Motorcraft Oil the only brand on the planet to obtain this Spec? Their reply: WSS-M2C931-A is essentially SAE 5W-50 API SL. WSS-M2C931-B is essentially SAE 5W-50 API SM. Both have a few other characteristics beyond SL or SM. The change from A to B was to upgraded to the latest catagory. I can't explain why no one else wants to claim these specs. These specs do have a lower phosphorus limit than what is required for SL or SM, for catalyst compatability. So this may be why similar viscosity grades can't claim they meet these specs. Hope this answers your questions. Thanks Ron Service Lubricants Technical Expert FCSD, Service Product Development, SEO Diagnostic Service Center II Ford/Motorcraft MSDS Help Desk Got a funny feeling that this is the missing link! I am still working with Pennzoil on this as well....the Product Engineer I am in conference with told me yesterday that the Marketing Division has the final say as to if and when they will decide to meet the Ford specs for this application, but, it is was being looked at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra_joe Posted June 10, 2008 Report Share Posted June 10, 2008 Anyone find a good place online to buy a case of the Motorcraft SAE 5W-50 (WSS-M2C931-B) oil? I found it for $6.99 each: http://k-mansparts.com/items/mustang/filte...-qgt-detail.htm I would be looking at buying 3 oil changes worth possibly to get the shipping value? My Ford dealership (service manager) had no clue what type of oil to use in the GT500, I had to tell him. Having the dealer do the oil changes without me bringing in the oil is not an option, I want to make sure they use the right stuff. Even if they do order and sell me the oil, I'm sure it would be bookoo overpriced. I've got 1700 miles on mine so far, so I'm not ready for the 1st one just yet. However, been doing research on this forum and the shelbyforums site, these owners also state there are some different procedures on oil changes on these Cobra's that need to be done to prevent oil from getting on the chassis. Going to be interesting when I hand the car over to the Ford shop with the pre-purchased oil, filter, and directions on how to change my oil.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stargazer423 Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 I talked with a local SVT dealer today about the oil spec and the GT500. I told him about the A vs. B issue, and he didn't know what I was talking about. He looked up the oil specified by Ford for use in the GT500 and gave me the same info talked about here, but he couldn't find an oil that ended in "- B". Interestingly, the same oil is called for use in the GT. Price - $11.99 a bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDT Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 I believe the oil manufacturers have to "PAY FORD" for the rights to advertise their oil blend as meeting the Ford Spec?????????????????? Even if they already do meet the spec............. Correct me if this is not true???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted June 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 I believe the oil manufacturers have to "PAY FORD" for the rights to advertise their oil blend as meeting the Ford Spec?????????????????? Even if they already do meet the spec............. Correct me if this is not true???????? No that is not the case.....If they are just meeting a manufacturing standard, a "royalty" situation is not in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDT Posted June 18, 2008 Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Interesting because according to the Mobile One web site the Flow and break down caracteristics of the 5w-20 full synthetic oil surpasses the Motorcraft oil but I don't believe it is advertised as meeting the Ford Spec????????? But I confidently use the Mobile 1 in my Mustang GT............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Oil Posted June 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2008 Interesting because according to the Mobile One web site the Flow and break down caracteristics of the 5w-20 full synthetic oil surpasses the Motorcraft oil but I don't believe it is advertised as meeting the Ford Spec????????? But I confidently use the Mobile 1 in my Mustang GT............. For the GT it just has to satify whatever the current API spec is....Ford is irrelevent in that situation. Depending on the year of the GT, SL or SM API rating is all that is needed.... the "FORD Spec" "A" & "B" is only applicable to two vehicles....the GT500 anf the Ford GT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoynbj Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I believe the oil manufacturers have to "PAY FORD" for the rights to advertise their oil blend as meeting the Ford Spec?????????????????? Even if they already do meet the spec............. Correct me if this is not true???????? See my correspondence below with Castrol on this topic. View the thread from the bottom up. They claim their oil meets the spec, it just isn't approved by Ford (royalty?). Thank you for contacting Castrol, Unfortunately Castrol does not have control over what products Original Engine Manufacturer’s choose to approve. Please contact Ford for more information regarding their specification. Castrol Consumer Relations If it meets Ford's specification, why isn't it approved for use by Ford? --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Castrol <castrol@idea-factor.com> wrote: From: Castrol <castrol@idea-factor.com> Subject: Castrol To: stoynbj@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:46 PM Thank you for contacting Castrol, Castrol always recommends following the guidelines of the original engine manufacturer for the recommended fluid to use in your specific applications. SYNTEC 5W-50 meets the WSS-M2C931-B specification for the 2007 Ford Shelby GT 500 (that calls for 5W-50 oil) however it does not have approval by Ford. Castrol Consumer Relations. ======================================== Subject: CastrolUSA - Expert Advice Form Data Dear Online Customer Service, DATE: 7/8/2008 9:44:56 AM CATEGORY: Gasoline Engine Oil INQUIRY DETAILS: Does the Castrol Syntec 5w-50 oil meet the Ford spec for the 5.4L engine on the Shelby GT-500? You're data shows meeting the Ford Rating WSS-M2C931-A. My Shelby Manual Recommends Only WSS-M2C931-B. Is the A vs. B designation important? Can I use your oil and maintain my Ford warranty or not? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mciarochi Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I've seen this dozens of times, with all sorts of products. In order to meet a "spec" you have to do all kinds of tests. The testing itself is generally not that much of a problem. However, it requirees a third party to do the testing, and they make a lot of money doing that kind of testing. The documentation and approval process takes even more time and money, especially when the approval process involves multiple companies (like, for instance, Ford and Castrol). Even the testing process, before they crack open a bottle of oil, has to be approved by all parties. Castrol probably knows damn well they could meet the spec, but with the very limited market for this oil, why bother? Ford probably knows that Castrol meets the spec, but why would THEY spend the money to approve the Syntec? Thus, you have Castrol, and probably others, that exceed whatever spec is required, but just have no particular reason to spend the money so they can put a "B" instead of an "A" on the bottle. The bit where the UPC bar code for the A and B variants of the Motorcraft oil should be a clue. In case of warranty, I'll bet there is no way they can tell the difference between the A and B variants in the crankcase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Doctor Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Castrol Syntec 5W-50 seems to run about $6.50 per quart in the local auto parts stores, and the cheapest I can find the certified oil is about $9.00 per quart. So it seems we are down to preserving the warranty or saving $21 per oil change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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