Boss Mustang Partnership?

[MustangFanatic]

I posted a similar thought within another thread but I wanted to bring it up here for discussion. My feeble mind has been contemplating the impact of the recent partnership between Ford and Shelby on the Shelby GT Mustang. Does the expansion of the relationship with Shelby signal the dawn of a new era for Ford?

 

Given the fact that Ford is having trouble producing limited production Mustangs like the GT500 at Flat Rock, could Ford be looking at other partnerships to produce special edition Mustangs? Since Saleen has essentially produced a Boss Mustang with their PJ Saleen, could we be looking at a potential partnership between Saleen and Ford to produce the Boss? What about Roush, might they be a potential parnter to develop and produce a Boss variant? Both companies have engineering and production experience that would lend itself to low-volume production so it might be reasonable assumption. Saleen has already developed a 5.0L engine and has stated they can produce as many as necessary. So the question on the table is, will the next Boss be an in-house only initiative or a joint-venture? Let the debate commence...

[68fastback]

I posted a similar thought within another thread but I wanted to bring it up here for discussion. My feeble mind has been contemplating the impact of the recent partnership between Ford and Shelby on the Shelby GT Mustang. Does the expansion of the relationship with Shelby signal the dawn of a new era for Ford?

 

Given the fact that Ford is having trouble producing limited production Mustangs like the GT500 at Flat Rock, could Ford be looking at other partnerships to produce special edition Mustangs? Since Saleen has essentially produced a Boss Mustang with their PJ Saleen, could we be looking at a potential partnership between Saleen and Ford to produce the Boss? What about Roush, might they be a potential parnter to develop and produce a Boss variant? Both companies have engineering and production experience that would lend itself to low-volume production so it might be reasonable assumption. Saleen has already developed a 5.0L engine and has stated they can produce as many as necessary. So the question on the table is, will the next Boss be an in-house only initiative or a joint-venture? Let the debate commence...

 

 

SOme great questions/ideas, Fanatic, as always

 

I think Shelby will be the Ford rapid-response variant guys (Amy B has said so in so many words).

 

Saleen and Roush have viable businesses that seem to have the 'bling-niche' covered, but could also do stuff for Ford directly, I guess. The problem with flat-floor ops, is that everything gets more expensive. If I were Ford I'd want to do as much as I could without increasing complexity on the line, but....

 

Roush had clay model mathematical data so they could cut their own models of the '07 GT under non-disclosure months ago, so Ford and Roush clearly have a very tight relationship. Certainly Saleen and Roush are more sophisticated ops than Shelby LV, but I think it will be Shelby that does all Shelby variants directly for Ford because Shelby cannot sell their own cars except thru Ford (under the contract) and Ford would never want to strand them. Saleen and Roush can sell thru whoever they want, e.g. Ford showrooms and/or their own, but the Ford showroom arangement is a deal between the dealers and Saleen/Roush, I believe. Whereas the Shelby arrangement with Ford dealers is essentially through the Ford contract.

 

Re a Boss 302 being a Saleen or Roush joint venture with Ford.... Clearly I don't know, but I don't see anyting to prevent that. Ford would still have to underwrite the federal certs and own the marketing, I would think, unless the Mfg label is Saleen or Roush -- highly unlikely since that would be Ford giving up it's own brand-space, but, who know? However, a subcontract would certainly be possible. Just thinking out loud, Ford could devise a hi-po-group-opt that goes down Ford line (missing fascia/clips, etc) that Saleen/Roush/Shelby finishes -- more efficient than dealing with takeoffs as they do now. As for the engine, if Ford is underwriting it (Ford=mfgr nameplate) I think it would be a niche engine, engineered by Ford/SVT. The Saleen/Roush/Shelby can do the FRP goodies and varients they like and offer their engine versions too, but I don;t think you're going to see a Ford warranty on those engines unless it uses ord-engineered kits. Presently Saleen swaps pistons, rods, and a lot more and they are Saleen-spec parts in most cases (at least that what their website says).

 

At least that seems to be the tac Ford is on. I don't think it's going to change much in the next few years. Nevertheless, there's gobs of goddies that can be offered through the existing channels as defined -- including Saleen/Roush/Shelby with SVT/FRP goodies. But my crystal ball is cloudy on whether Ford plans anything more tightly-coupled (than today) with their primary partners. Saleen build the Ford GT but Ford Niche, I believe, did the engine/electronics/ECU, etc and owns the Carts and warranty. That's the most agressive coupling I think well see and mustang price points would be hard-pressed to do much economically thru that channel, IMHO.

 

I need a drink or

 

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[robertlane]

Hard to say, but if Ford uses many of the GT500 mechanics in an upcoming Boss, they would have enough practical experience to make a Boss themselves.

 

Can Saleen produce enough specialty Mustangs for Ford - let's say 10,000 Boss Mustangs? That's a good question for Saleen.

[MustangFanatic]

I certainly believe Shelby will be involved in all aspects in future Shelby models such as a GT350. Certainly they are going to represent Ford's "rapid response" team in the near term.

 

Dan, I agree the most logical choice for Ford might be the hi-po-group-opt approach you described where the Mustangs destined for an primary partner upgrade were fitted with appropriate content at the factory while omitting those parts that are going to be installed by the partner as part of the SE model. That method would allow Ford to warranty the "hard parts" while leaving the final finish to the partner. The largest potential hurdle would be whether Ford would be comfortable selling (and providing a warranty) for a product finished outside of their manufacturing facility. Even with the appropriate legal arrangements, Ford would be assuming a considerable brand risk in such a scenario.

 

To Robert's point, if they utilize many of the GT500's suspension pieces including brakes, then it would be an easy transition to create a Boss. I'm not convinced either way at this point and if pressed would assume that any new Boss model would be developed and manufactured within the walls of a Ford manufacturing facility. Of course, Ford could bring the partner "onsite" to oversee such a "niche" operation, essentially providing the facilities and materials while allowing the partner to assume the operational burdens.

 

Ok, now I need a :tequila:

[68fastback]

Hard to say, but if Ford uses many of the GT500 mechanics in an upcoming Boss, they would have enough practical experience to make a Boss themselves.

 

Can Saleen produce enough specialty Mustangs for Ford - let's say 10,000 Boss Mustangs? That's a good question for Saleen.

 

 

I would not think anything is past Steve Saleen's ability to pull-off But it doesn't make sense to me to move that kind of volume thru a flat-floor operation, unless they're just installing clips, CAI, exhaust. Even then, I think Fanatic's concerns on Ford warrantying it would trump the deal unless on-site with Ford's line and just a subcontract (no Saleen brand involved). Ford's very conservative.

 

 

The GT500 block/tranny as an NA 5.0? Way too heavy, I think. (maybe you didn't mean the motor itself, Robert?)

 

If I were to guess what Ford will actually do, as opposed to Fanatic opening this discussion on what could be done, I'd expect.

 

-4.6L alloy block stroked to 5.0 (will rev 6,500 with 'GT'-grade internals and 7,200 with forged/h-beam goodies) at 400-425HP

 

-FordGT/5.0-cammer-variant heads

 

-T56 (not enough torque to justify weight and expense of TR6060 and T56 close-ration gearset is a better match for a Boss)

 

-Chassis goodies from GT500/manracer programs (struts, springs, shocks, rack&pinion, stiffening items, etc): has to be a curve carver

 

-four-five colors, stripe options, special spoiler (easy personalization item)

 

-simple, functional interior: good [cloth] seats, no frills, minimal/functional console

 

-3,500 lbs target

 

-$35K target

[MustangFanatic]

I'd agree that Saleen could pull off the logistics but might compromise quality to accomplish the production goal (although Robert did say the PJ Saleen was very nicely executed, most anyone in the Mustang game can produce a 500 unit run of high quality cars). I would also believe Ford would not risk the warranty exposure or QC issues to farm it outside the corporate umbrella. Certainly, Ford is not in the position to endure any type of negative backlash from launching a poor quality product.

 

One huge issue I ignored completely in the initial musing was the impact of the UAW on such an arrangement. I highly doubt SA workers are UAW members and likely any other partnership would be aligned in a similar fashion. Therefore, Ford is probably contractually limited with the amount of business they could send to non-union workers before the UAW would cry foul. Otherwise, I'm sure Ford and GM would have considered this option previously.

 

Again, your assumptions on what will be included in the Boss seem right on target, let's just hope Ford is closely monitoring our discussions here!!

[68fastback]

I'd agree that Saleen could pull off the logistics but might compromise quality to accomplish the production goal (although Robert did say the PJ Saleen was very nicely executed, most anyone in the Mustang game can produce a 500 unit run of high quality cars). I would also believe Ford would not risk the warranty exposure or QC issues to farm it outside the corporate umbrella. Certainly, Ford is not in the position to endure any type of negative backlash from launching a poor quality product.

 

One huge issue I ignored completely in the initial musing was the impact of the UAW on such an arrangement. I highly doubt SA workers are UAW members and likely any other partnership would be aligned in a similar fashion. Therefore, Ford is probably contractually limited with the amount of business they could send to non-union workers before the UAW would cry foul. Otherwise, I'm sure Ford and GM would have considered this option previously.

 

Again, your assumptions on what will be included in the Boss seem right on target, let's just hope Ford is closely monitoring our discussions here!!

 

 

Good insights, Fanatic. Maybe the SA deal works because they ship them as SA-serialed cars. Agree it's hard to see them doing that with a Boss via Saleen, and I agree with your labor/QA concerns.

 

Makes me wonder how they handled the Ford-GT thru Saleen. Maybe it was a special case, since they were essentially had-fabbed and Ford did not have equivalent UAW capacity. dunno.

 

Hmmm, the questions keep popping! makes you wonder where that 'boundary' is. You know someone in Ford owns that 'line' and it was carefully thought out -- probably was John Coletti for the FordGT (with General Council and Labor Relations) <lol>

 

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[MustangFanatic]

Good insights, Fanatic. Maybe the SA deal works because they ship them as SA-serialed cars. Agree it's hard to see them doing that with a Boss via Saleen, and I agree with your labor/QA concerns.

 

Makes me wonder how they handled the Ford-GT thru Saleen. Maybe it was a special case, since they were essentially had-fabbed and Ford did not have equivalent UAW capacity. dunno.

 

Hmmm, the questions keep popping! makes you wonder where that 'boundary' is. You know someone in Ford owns that 'line' and it was carefully thought out -- probably was John Coletti for the FordGT (with General Council and Labor Relations) <lol>

 

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I'm sure with the Ford GT, the production quantity was so low that the UAW probably didn't even flinch about the car being assembled in a non-union plant.

 

With the Shelby GT, the UAW still has their hands in the pie, the cars are essentially produced by Ford and sent to SA for minor upgrades, UAW labor still builds the car and they get their financial benefit. I suppose I a similar method could be utilized if the Boss was farmed out, and entire car would be produced by Ford and shipped to the supplier who would make the Boss transformation complete. There would be more take-off parts in that scenario which would financially benefit the supplier but at least the UAW wouldn't protest as loudly.

 

and the debate continues.....

[68fastback]

I'm sure with the Ford GT, the production quantity was so low that the UAW probably didn't even flinch about the car being assembled in a non-union plant.

 

With the Shelby GT, the UAW still has their hands in the pie, the cars are essentially produced by Ford and sent to SA for minor upgrades, UAW labor still builds the car and they get their financial benefit. I suppose I a similar method could be utilized if the Boss was farmed out, and entire car would be produced by Ford and shipped to the supplier who would make the Boss transformation complete. There would be more take-off parts in that scenario which would financially benefit the supplier but at least the UAW wouldn't protest as loudly.

 

and the debate continues.....

 

 

Good thoughts!

 

In a way Ford's hard work at cultivating good realtions with their aftermarket partners is really opening options for them (almost an embarassment of partner 'riches' -- seems like there are enough mustang enthusiasts to carry them all so far). Hopefully companies like SA, Saleen & Roush can help Ford to streamline production by filling in some of the niche builds somehow -- a rather creative approach given the constraints Ford is working with.

 

The part I'm confused by is that it's somehow worth doing all those takeoffs -- does Ford take them back somehow and reuse them? Are they resold/'scrapped' to the aftermarket/parts channels? In '78 I bought a Pathfinder Quadravan. They would roll E250s off the Ford line and, cross-town, roll them up on the Pathfinder line and disassemble the front ends and do the 4x4 conversion (with all Dana/Ford parts). The front-end suspension was returned to Ford and reused (at least that's what Pathfinder told me). And Ford honored the full warranty on the truck and on their parts and Pathfinder on just their parts. In a way I can understand that with axles/hubs and such, but front clips and trim would seem to be much more fragile/problematic.

 

I guess we'll see -- as long as the take-offs bring a usefull price (whatever the channel/Ford arrangement) then it won't overinflate the final vehicle cost. So maybe my concern on this isn't really a big deal. But I do wish I knew how that might/does work).

 

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[MustangFanatic]

Good thoughts!

 

In a way Ford's hard work at cultivating good realtions with their aftermarket partners is really opening options for them (almost an embarassment of partner 'riches' -- seems like there are enough mustang enthusiasts to carry them all so far). Hopefully companies like SA, Saleen & Roush can help Ford to streamline production by filling in some of the niche builds somehow -- a rather creative approach given the constraints Ford is working with.

 

The part I'm confused by is that it's somehow worth doing all those takeoffs -- does Ford take them back somehow and reuse them? Are they resold/'scrapped' to the aftermarket/parts channels? In '78 I bought a Pathfinder Quadravan. They would roll E250s off the Ford line and, cross-town, roll them up on the Pathfinder line and disassemble the front ends and do the 4x4 conversion (with all Dana/Ford parts). The front-end suspension was returned to Ford and reused (at least that's what Pathfinder told me). And Ford honored the full warranty on the truck and on their parts and Pathfinder on just their parts. In a way I can understand that with axles/hubs and such, but front clips and trim would seem to be much more fragile/problematic.

 

I guess we'll see -- as long as the take-offs bring a usefull price (whatever the channel/Ford arrangement) then it won't overinflate the final vehicle cost. So maybe my concern on this isn't really a big deal. But I do wish I knew how that might/does work).

 

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Unless I misunderstand, I believe the partner gets to keep all of the take-off parts from the manufacturer for resale. While there could be benefits for Ford in terms of material costs if the take-off parts could be reused but I'm sure the logistics of reinserting those take-off parts into the production cycle along with the increased liability from reinstalling "used" parts would negate any potenial material cost savings.

[68fastback]

Unless I misunderstand, I believe the partner gets to keep all of the take-off parts from the manufacturer for resale. While there could be benefits for Ford in terms of material costs if the take-off parts could be reused but I'm sure the logistics of reinserting those take-off parts into the production cycle along with the increased liability from reinstalling "used" parts would negate any potenial material cost savings.

 

 

That makes sense, Fanatic... there are probably plenty of body shops they'll find their way too -- already painted end everything

 

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[MustangFanatic]

Based on our discussions and excellent dialog, it appears that most believe that Ford will build the Boss in house. I suppose the opportunity still exists to utilize existing partnership arrangements to farm out part of the development work. I'm surprised that no one has seen or heard rumors of any mules running around, although it was reported some months ago that there were several GT500's running around with 4.6L powerplants.

[68fastback]

Based on our discussions and excellent dialog, it appears that most believe that Ford will build the Boss in house. I suppose the opportunity still exists to utilize existing partnership arrangements to farm out part of the development work. I'm surprised that no one has seen or heard rumors of any mules running around, although it was reported some months ago that there were several GT500's running around with 4.6L powerplants.

 

 

Hmmmm... yeah, I had heard that -- great cover too ....so Robert is going to have to install weight-scales in the roadways all around Dearborn, I think, so evertime a GT500 goes by we can spot the 'light' ones?

 

...or maybe we can just listen for a lack of blower whine too.. Hmmmm.... A directional mic and a recorder might do it?

 

I'll have to contact Ruf, carnut KC, Phantom and the boys and plan a mission! Fire up the Expedition, Ruf! Let's roll, Fanatic... <lol>

 

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[MustangFanatic]

Hmmmm... yeah, I had heard that -- great cover too ....so Robert is going to have to install weight-scales in the roadways all around Dearborn, I think, so evertime a GT500 goes by we can spot the 'light' ones?

 

...or maybe we can just listen for a lack of blower whine too.. Hmmmm.... A directional mic and a recorder might do it?

 

I'll have to contact Ruf, carnut KC, Phantom and the boys and plan a mission! Fire up the Expedition, Ruf! Let's roll, Fanatic... <lol>

 

.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, sounds like a plan!! Road trip!!!