Instant collectable?

[68fastback]

I don't think he is removed from the project as you say. I think the man has pride and integrity and has enough $ to be able to provide a contract that says when his name is on this vehicle it will be a vehicle that he condones as being top quality. I am not saying Shelby did the engineering but you can bet he pushed for a great product and he made a difference in what this car would of been compared to what it is.

 

I think the Thunderbird hype took Ford out of the market for some buyers so they haven't paid attention to a "Shelby" Mustang. Anyway, I will defer to the future to see what happens with it..........but my gut says this is a car that will hold it's value and be a collectible in the future.

The discussion is appreciated, though. Only the future will tell...

 

 

The T-bird was not intended to be a true performance car -- it was intended to be true to its heritage as a comfortable, stylish, sporty, retro ride. Contrary to what C&D and others have mis-stated ad nauseum, it was intended from the start to have a limited production run of 2-3 years.

 

I think you're right that the Shelby will hold it's value well, at least it will likely hold it better than all other recent mustangs. Ford conceived and planned the GT500 from the getgo. To be able to use Carroll's name they've courted him for the better part of a decade now, to try to make amends for the distaste left with Carroll in 1968 when Ford pulled the rug out from under him. We all know how rightly proud Ford is of its heritage and this is a car that Ford felt had to be made. Certainly Carroll has been involved in the project from a distance in a 'review and advise' capacity to the extent that if Ford did something fundamentally inconsistent with or damaging to his good name, he certainly would have a say -- that is the nature of such contracts. Of course it would be foolish for Ford to do anything less than an awesome job on this Shelby, especially after courting him for so long to regain his full trust, doing two concept cars to honor him and his original Cobras and the Daytona, and paying him licensing for the use of his name and the GT500 marque (which Shelby owns). But this car from concept to engineering to execution is a Ford/SVT work product -- and one that Carroll Shelby has made clear he is very pleased with. So while Carroll would certainly want this car to be 'top quality,' as you point out, and has been in the loop all along, there was never any chance that it would not be someting he would love -- the entire concept was presented to him on a silver platter as part of the contract deal from the getgo.... a platter that was conceived, designed, engineered, and produced by Ford/SVT.

 

I don't think, at least to my mind, that detracts from the GT500 or Carroll Shelby one bit (and I'm not meaning to imply you feel it does). On the contrary, I think it further galvanizes the Ford-Shelby relationship. And I believe that the reason that Shelby has said (in a very public way) that his relationship with Ford will endure for the rest of his life is tribute and testament by Carroll Shelby to Ford -- that they have not only won back his trust, they have won his heart and will continue to make him proud of what they are doing. This time around it will be a win-win-win for Shelby-Ford-us. What a deal!

 

Fordrules, I don't mean to be coming across as putting your view down because it's clear we both hold Carroll in very high regard -- even if he never did any Shelby mustangs back in the day, he'd still be revered as a legendary race car builder and driver -- I just wanted to try to fill in some of the pieces which you may or may not have already been aware of. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people feel this car and Carroll Shelby are both pretty special and that's precisely why the GT500 is uncorking such high ADMs. As JETSOLVER laments, it's unfortunate that so many of these cars will never fulfill their destiny out on the road/track -- bringing joy to those who truly appreciate experiencing their capabilities. But I guess that's just the reality of life these days -- there's a lot of money out there and, apparently, a lot of folks who believe this car is eminently collectable. This is a situation of supply and demand (Ford has the supply and Carroll is de man! ;-)

 

To my mind, if I get one (but only when the price comes down to MSRP, or below), my kids will eventually have to pry the keys out of my cold dead hands. Then they can enjoy it or sell it to someone who truly appreciates it, or will hot-rod it or restore it, and hopefully enjoy it all over again -- or put it in a museum if they must. Somewhere I think it's chiseled in stone that that's the way the sequence ought to be Putting this car in a museum first just seems, well, sad. I'd rather see a 20 year-old race the crap out of it plastered with juvenile graphics, than see it under glass somewhere but, as they say, it's a free country! ;-)

[68fastback]

Nobody is impuning Mr. Shelby's character or his background. But if you have been out of the performance factory game for a while(and some here have, attracted by the SHELBY name they are interested again, which has the potential to be a good thing) you should know that for 14 years the SVT program was responsible for the entire renaissance of REAL high performance at Ford and the rest of the automotive world. With the exception of BMW's "M" division ALL (SRT,Mercedes AMG, Chevy's SS, NISMO,TRD,Mazdaspeed, Quatro Gmbh, and all the other followers in the factory "tuners") are around because SVT went first with the idea that there was a market for no gingerbread TOTAL performance cars. :bowdown: (120000 serious performance vehicles, three completly new performance segments, and the baddest cars EVER made in Dearborn the "R's"). So while we all respect the pride and integrety of the estimable Mr. Shelby and his LEGACY, we should give equal time to the actual people who concieved, sold the concept to suits, engineered, and marketed the modern version we covered with those cool badges. In response to the inevitable flamers, I would direct your attention to the GT-H, which is more of a limited edition SHELBY than the SVT/GT500 is. A sticker/badge job with a little marketing thrown in. And the best part is , SVT fans are not as accepting as SHELBY fans, we are pissed that the car feel short of its potential.

 

 

Amen. amen! Real enthusiasts who also bleed Ford blue demand nothing but the very best from our beloved Ford/SVT. And our tough love is a good thing

 

Who else, being presented with an awesome 525HP pony car (that's admittedly an extraordinary workproduct on a competant but otherwise pedestrian base-platform technology) would still piss on Ford's shoes over the inevitable added weight and a little balance skew? We would!!! ...and we're proud of it! We want cars that rule! Cars that bring new meaning to the words "Kneel Suckers!

Anythig less is unacceptable!

[68fastback]

agree.

 

everyone here speculates that Carroll Shelby was distant from this project.

who knows that for a fact? what proof does anyone have of this? in every interview that Thai-Tang gives about this car he states that shelby was heavily involved since the beginning (from the conception stage). why do people doubt that?

 

Shelby is a rich man with alot of pride. his reputation is built on hard work. he was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. he certainly does not need the money. I don't think he would put his name on a car that he wasn't involved in or that didn't meet with his absolute approval.

 

just MHO.

 

 

<let me appologize in advance for this post -- if anyone is offended by it's tone or directness that is not my intention, but I can't not try to put this 'Carroll Shelby making this car right' stuff in some perspective>

 

I didn't mean to imply he was distant from the project as much as the project was virtually 100% conceived and designed at the point the contract proposal was even presented to him. Without Shelby you can't call it a Shelby (or a GT500 for that matter). So he wasn't 'distant' from it in an uninterested sense (for sure) as much as he did not need to have much influence over it (and probably could not have very much anyway). The GT500 was already defined and consistent with what Ford knew would be doable for well over two years now. There's no way Carroll and his team could even assess an integrated engineering and manufacturing plan, and there was no way it would even be proposed if it was not already known to be viable and could not already conform to a minimum impact build on the same line with Mazdas and v6 & GT mustangs. No one except those inside Ford/SVT itself could possibly birth such a plan in this day and age. There is no one even at Shelby Autos and few outside of Ford who could even assess the total viability of such a Ford-specific plan, let alone create it. That is unless Carroll has some major compute power and many millions of dollars of industry-specific and Ford-proprietary software squirreled away in a Las Vegas wherehouse somewhere.

 

You can't just make a killer motor and put it in a pony car today like you could in the '60s. It has to meet emissions standards that no one at SA would even care about, let alone be intimately familiar with in a standards-compliance way (it's easy to play with retuning with an engine programmer to stay within an existing design; it's a whole 'nother thing to birth that design without the myriad hardware and software components design and simulation components). And the engine and vehicle structure itself has to be stress and dynamics analyzed before one stitch of it even exists in the physical world (yes the GT analysis existed but the GT500 drove necessary structural design improvements and it was computer analysis that saved the day on the crank-snout/damper probem that otherwise could have been a show stopper). You have to know (computer modelling and testing) that the result can meet federally mandated emissions levels and have 'room' in your federally mandated CAFE targets and production model mix. And that has to be accurately analyzed well in advance or you could have a really sweet car that you can't produce under Federal law or can't legally produce the number necessary to make a net profit. The process isn't two or five or ten times more complex than in 1968. It's orders of magnitude more complex -- literally. In fact it's so complex most cars cannot even be created at all or profitably produced without doing it first inside computers. Simulations that were inconceivable just 10 years ago are now de rigeur in an every-day context. Live-run simulations that are so complex that state of the art supercomputers take days or weeks to crunch a single set of changes are standard practice. And all that has to considered in the context of manufactureability and durability and serviceability and a NVH-analyses and a host of other considerations, or you may have a great car you can't make or can't afford to make (for one reason or another). Even crash testing of the total design is initially done inside a computer, algorythmically, mathematically, before the design is considered workable. Which part of this does anyone think Carroll Shelby has anything whatsoever to do with? Concept? Sure. But it already was defined. Beyond that... very little, if anything at all, beyond what you or I could do.

 

Carroll is a living legend and that legend's work is essentialy to be associated with the product in ways that reinforce the legend -- polishing the oval by association. Even the entire relationship you see Carroll having with Ford and the GT500 (him leaning graciously on the car in press releases, 'overseeing' progress, test-driving, etc.) is orchestrated by Ford. I'm not saying he has a Ford script, but every facet of every event is conceived and orchestrated by Ford and the PR folks. It's one giant 'commercial.' Nothing wrong with that, but, effectively, it is. Certainly no one on planet earth thinks the casual comments made in endorsement TV commercials are anything but totally orchestrated in advance. Companies and consultants spend hundreds of hours planning scripts and dialogs for TV commercials. They're 'tested' for effectiveness before the commercial ever sees the prime-time TV audience. Different variations are tried in different markets and mixes and refined and retested long before the full scale marketing rollout plan. And it's crafted to fit with corporate image and political hotbutons as necessary. Why would anyone think Ford is doing anything different? Because Hau Tai Tang says some words about Carroll being involved (with absolutely no specifics aside from possibly suggesting bigger rear tires which could have been part of the plan anyway)? Does anyone think Hau Tai Tang isn't part of the 'commercial' himself (at a PR level) as a respected Ford executive? And if they've done their job well, even Carroll himself will be unaware of any broader Ford implications of the 'commercial' -- he just needs to be himself in the context of his 'role' as living legend (which he truly is) and the PR spots will work nicely.

 

Btw, doesn't it strike anyone as odd that, after decades, Ford has decided to show commercials with people laying rubber on public streets? That's been a no-no for a long time! What changed? Was it intentional? My two cents: liability limitation legislation passed by congress as a result of heavy lobying by several industries is what changed and be assured it was not accidential!

 

I guess too many years of Fortune 25 business associations have brought me to a reality that is fundamentally different than most, and I appologize if I'm sounding mouthy because I really don't mean to be -- it's just that, as a corporate strategist, I'm painfully aware of certain business and marketing realities that are likely obscure, at best, to most but are the way it is. Virtually nothing you see or hear in print or on TV is actually impromptu, unless it's breaking news or weather (and sometimes I'm not so sure about the breaking news ;-)

 

But I bet there's a whole lot about bones and a zillion other topics I know next to squat about, doc

.

[JETSOLVER]

I guess too many years of Fortune 25 business associations have brought me to a reality that is fundamentally different than most, and I appologize if I'm sounding mouthy because I really don't mean to be -- it's just that, as a corporate strategist, I'm painfully aware of certain business and marketing realities that are likely obscure, at best, to most but are the way it is. Virtually nothing you see or hear in print or on TV is actually impromptu, unles it's breaking news or weather (and sometimes I'm not so sure about the breaking news ;-)

 

But I bet there's a whole lot about bones and a zillion other topics I know next to squat about, doc

 

THIS sort of dialogue is why I hang around this place so much. I am a car guy. I work for gas. And the future of high performance is at a bigger turning point now than at any time since the original consumer choice between electric, steam and petroleum in the early 1900's. The future is more than any other timeNOW. We have crapped where we slept, and so we are about to reap the rewards of those choices. Folks the car is the enemy to the average person and the performance car in particular. Who needs a car that can exceed the highway speedlimit in first gear? I do!! And I'm of the belief that a lot of people around here do as well. But we need these things to push the boundries of what is possible NOW. If your belief system is about personal gratification, your car is here. If you believe as I do that driving(fast) is the personification of personal freedom then you owe it to everyone that ever turned their head at a car, or ever got an evil grin from a rumpy cammed V-8, or thinks that a Ferrari, Porsche, or Ford DOHC at 7200 revs is as wonderful a song as any bird, we need to MAKE the domestics make a case for silly amounts of engineering elegance that is relative to the world at large. Because this is the last time around for this version folks. So don't be selfish. Just because I choose to debate your opinion doesn't mean I don't value it. So throw it out here and see what happens. It would kill me now to know that in 10 years my nephew(the recipiant of all my toys) will be debateing the value of returning a SHELBY to its as delivered hobbled state of tune because that would make it more valuable or fate forbid legal to drive in a PARADE of classics. If that is where this is headed I would give up the car now. I choose to fight, er put unnesessary amounts of octane boost in my car with the express intent of really taking advantage of the increased timing in my computer.

[Guest evilchris]

agree.

 

everyone here speculates that Carroll Shelby was distant from this project.

who knows that for a fact? what proof does anyone have of this? in every interview that Thai-Tang gives about this car he states that shelby was heavily involved since the beginning (from the conception stage). why do people doubt that?

 

Shelby is a rich man with alot of pride. his reputation is built on hard work. he was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. he certainly does not need the money. I don't think he would put his name on a car that he wasn't involved in or that didn't meet with his absolute approval.

 

just MHO.

 

 

 

Also:

 

http://www.allpar.com/model/daytona.html

 

"1986 was the first year to offer the C/S (Carroll Shelby Competition Series) package on the Turbo Z model. Carroll was not directly involved in the design of this package,"

[BoneDoc]

evilchris, 68fastback, jetsolver....

 

points all well taken, gentlemen.

I appreciate your comments.

 

WOW! That Dodge is Ugly.... maybe Carroll needed the money at the time?!

[JETSOLVER]

evilchris, 68fastback, jetsolver....

 

points all well taken, gentlemen.

I appreciate your comments.

 

WOW! That Dodge is Ugly.... maybe Carroll needed the money at the time?!

 

Mutual. And as I squint at it it sort of looks vaugely AZTECious, in a "I didn't live my childhood, just survived it", sorta way. But good point Chris, I guess we need to look back to see how far we've come. It is just my nature to want more from engineering. I've found that attitude COMES IN HANDY WHEN YOU ASK PEOPLE TO PAY FOR IT!!!

:do what:

[shel-b001]

Okay -- I know Ford had alot to do with the new SHELBY but what I can tell you for sure that in July 2004

Carroll Shelby was at Ford working on the new Shelby for a week prior to our convention

S.A.A.C 29 . He definately had a lot of imput as to suspension drive train & other modifications

that went into the vehicle but that time was reluctant to release any details. I do know from his wife that he had a glay model of the new Shelby up in their room & he had spent days working with Ford

on the new Shelby & she would not say any more than that . I`am sure that now the car is out that if some one ask him now what imput he had he would not hesitate to tell you.

 

My 2c worth

[BlueOval]

Okay -- I know Ford had alot to do with the new SHELBY but what I can tell you for sure that in July 2004

Carroll Shelby was at Ford working on the new Shelby for a week prior to our convention

S.A.A.C 29 . He definately had a lot of imput as to suspension drive train & other modifications

that went into the vehicle but that time was reluctant to release any details. I do know from his wife that he had a glay model of the new Shelby up in their room & he had spent days working with Ford

on the new Shelby & she would not say any more than that . I`am sure that now the car is out that if some one ask him now what imput he had he would not hesitate to tell you.

 

My 2c worth

 

 

 

But, I bet that July 2004 prototype is much different than what is available for purchase today. Almost all projects start out with "pie in the sky" requirements. These generally get weeded out due to cost and time concerns.

[SC2004arispe]

But, I bet that July 2004 prototype is much different than what is available for purchase today. Almost all projects start out with "pie in the sky" requirements. These generally get weeded out due to cost and time concerns.

 

 

 

 

Yeah... like the light in the spoiler and the "S H E L B Y " across the back lid!!!

 

Just found out Pearson Ford just sold the one JETSOLVER found that came in to San Diego,

 

It sold to a guy that drove 3hrs from Palm Desert to pay $72K and drive it home last night.

[BlueOval]

Yeah... like the light in the spoiler and the "S H E L B Y " across the back lid!!!

 

Just found out Pearson Ford just sold the one JETSOLVER found that came in to San Diego,

 

It sold to a guy that drove 3hrs from Palm Desert to pay $72K and drive it home last night.

 

 

and the twin screw...

 

...and the cross-drilled rotors

 

Mr. Shelby had very little to do with this car besides selling his name for it. It's a renamed Cobra. It's like Candlestick Park. No, 3Com Stadium. No... whatever they're calling it this year.

[68fastback]

and the twin screw...

 

...and the cross-drilled rotors

 

Mr. Shelby had very little to do with this car besides selling his name for it. It's a renamed Cobra. It's like Candlestick Park. No, 3Com Stadium. No... whatever they're calling it this year.

 

Right-on, Blue Oval. I completely agree. Shelby can have all the input he wants (you have to do that to recultivate a relationship) but, ultimately, the GT500 is what Ford planned to make all along because it's the best of what could be made, certified and production mixed on a mustang base with minimum impact.

 

If Carroll really did have a serious say, we'd have a 2850lb 50/50WD all aluminum road car with a 605HP hi-revving DOHC V10 that would cost about $80K (historically correct ratio too ;-). Oh, wait a minute... Ford/SVT already built that exact car to show off what could be done and make Carroll want to play ball in the first place! But, by design, that was never what would be the GT500 (though I sure would like to see it produced ).

 

But Carroll is a realist... and no doubt Ford was entirely straight with him. For sure Ford served up a menu of what could be realistically done with minimum production impact at about $40K and told him that's what the plan was. <starting to sound biblical now ;-)> and Carroll saw it, and saw that it was good, and Tremecs and Shelby decals shipped to Flat Rock, and GT500s began to populate the earth.

 

<this post was brought to you by GM's Hoover Test track "Proud Maker of Products That Suck" >

[john351]

Seems you can buy the same thing from Cervini. I'll be adding that to my new stang.

 

My rental, #85. I wish the GT500 had the look of the GT-H, minus the wing. Interstingly enough, the GT-H isn't a Shelby either, it's an FRPP car with a Cervini grille! Shelby doesn't do stangs anymore. Saleen is more original, at least they design their own bodykit!

 

 

How'd the Hertz drive? Just curious about getting the feel of a modern stang prior to buying a 2007 GT500.

 

And I'll say it again, (sorry to be so redundant) wait around for 18 months when the Camaro, Challenger, and whatever flavor of the year (month) car comes out and the newness of the GT500 wears off, and they'll be selling at no more than MSRP.

 

Give me one example of a "collector car" that went up and held that higher price for more than 2-3 years.

 

Yes maybe 10-20 years later they start to creep back up, but after the "gotta have it 1st on my block" wears off, they drop for at least 10 years. For example (have given many, many examples on privious posts), but I haven't thought about a Corvette ZR1 90-94 (95?) what are they selling for now? 30-45K. And that is for examples with VERY low miles! Seems to me people were paying outrageous $ for them - at least 60K. This is a truly limited production car with an all aluminum "Mercury" 4 valve engine, and was (one of) the fastest production cars available at the time!

 

I still want a GT500 (even though they are freekin heavy and have poor weight ditribution), as I would consider them to be great GT cars - i.e. fast and comfortable cruisers for going back and forth to work or on long trips.

 

I'm not slamming the car at all, just dealing with reality. Those who have one - I'm jealous and wish you many fun filled miles - I simply don't have the kind of disposible income to pay dealer mark-up in the thousands.

[owenkelley]

evilchris, 68fastback, jetsolver....

 

points all well taken, gentlemen.

I appreciate your comments.

 

WOW! That Dodge is Ugly.... maybe Carroll needed the money at the time?!

 

 

All right! Now I'm offended! ( Not really )

 

But here are pictures of our '85 Shelby Charger that we bought brand new - the first new car we ever bought, and our '87 GLHS. We still have the '87, and it's a blast to drive! We have owned eight 5.0 Mustangs and our GLHS would blow the doors off them all. There is an article out there, I can't remember the publication, but I have a copy of it somewhere, and it talks about the '86 GLHS embarassing a '66 GT350 on a racetrack. The '66 GT350 was not stock either, it had been modified considerably. Anyway, although Shelby didn't have much to do with the original Shelby Chargers, the '87 GLHS was a true Shelby Automotive product, it came with it's own production number and dash plaque. Now I will be the first to admit that our GLHS is not a car that most people get excited about, but it was a true limited production car - only 1000 were made. Compare that to our '67 GT500 of which they built 2050 and the '07 GT500 we have on order that they are building somewhere around 9000 of, and the GLHS is pretty rare. Especially when you consider most of them probably have been destroyed by now. My Ford buddies think I'm nuts, but I'm really kinda excited about having Shelby products from 1967, 1987, and 2007. It's amazing the difference 20 years can make! In 1987 Shelby must have been thinking - "What the hell is going on? Twenty years ago I was building 400 Horsepower musclecars and now I'm building front Wheel Drive 4-cylinder turbocharged turds! I wonder what I'll be doing twenty years from now?" I'll bet he couldn't have imagined!

[68fastback]

All right! Now I'm offended! ( Not really )

 

But here are pictures of our '85 Shelby Charger that we bought brand new - the first new car we ever bought, and our '87 GLHS. We still have the '87, and it's a blast to drive! We have owned eight 5.0 Mustangs and our GLHS would blow the doors off them all. There is an article out there, I can't remember the publication, but I have a copy of it somewhere, and it talks about the '86 GLHS embarassing a '66 GT350 on a racetrack. The '66 GT350 was not stock either, it had been modified considerably. Anyway, although Shelby didn't have much to do with the original Shelby Chargers, the '87 GLHS was a true Shelby Automotive product, it came with it's own production number and dash plaque. Now I will be the first to admit that our GLHS is not a car that most people get excited about, but it was a true limited production car - only 1000 were made. Compare that to our '67 GT500 of which they built 2050 and the '07 GT500 we have on order that they are building somewhere around 9000 of, and the GLHS is pretty rare. Especially when you consider most of them probably have been destroyed by now. My Ford buddies think I'm nuts, but I'm really kinda excited about having Shelby products from 1967, 1987, and 2007. It's amazing the difference 20 years can make! In 1987 Shelby must have been thinking - "What the hell is going on? Twenty years ago I was building 400 Horsepower musclecars and now I'm building front Wheel Drive 4-cylinder turbocharged turds! I wonder what I'll be doing twenty years from now?" I'll bet he couldn't have imagined!

 

2027: 4 wheel-hub 150HP electrics (600HP) being recharged by a 4cyl clean diesel and overnight plug-in.

 

Who knows?! Amazing what 20 years will do. I sure hope it isn;t an alternating cycle though...

[emailcm]

Hi Everyone,

 

I'm new to this discussion forum and wanted to take the time to make a few points about the "investment" topic that I have not heard from anyone yet.

 

Personally, I think that history has repeated itself once again. Gas is over $3/gallon and has a better than 50/50 chance of only going up from here as the years go by. Sound familiar. That's what killed the Muscle Car the first time. In fact, Muscle Cars where scorned back in the day of OPEC production decreases. Personally, I think there will be a reduction in horespower in the coming years and the 2009 or 2010 GT500 will be scrapped.

 

Secondly, what makes this car a "instant collectible" is the name SHELBY....pure and simple. I've read others talking about SVT's and how they depreciated...so what...it was an SVT....not a SHELBY.

 

Third, I believe it doesn't really matter if they make 8k, 9k or even 10k....I'm holding mine for the long haul. I truly believe, as many others I've talked to, that this will be the last car Carrol Shelby has the time/energy to invest in with Ford and that makes it an "instant classic".

 

Last, I've been talking about this car for the past 2 years. I've always wanted one and I am willing to pay over MSRP to guarantee I get one. Like I said, I'm keeping it forever so what does it matter amortizing any increase I paid over the next 20 years.

 

Oh...one more point is that the number of rich folk in America is going up...not down! Did you know there are more than 100,000 millionaires? If only 8k of them want one...you ain't gettin' one at MSRP....today...tomrrow...next year...next ever!

[BlueOval]

You go!

 

There is no doubt that these cars will double, nay, triple in value in a short period. They are absolutely the most awesome car ever made I have no doubt.

 

Anyone who won't pay $65k for one of these babies is just plain stupid. I mean, it's got like 800 horse power and runs low 11's in the 1/4, right? What does C&D know anyway?

 

As soon as ol' Carroll goes horizontal... woo....weeeeeeee man, show me the money!!!!

 

If there were 30,000 1968 GT500KR's left, how much ya' think they'd be worth? As it is, they don't bring close to what Camaros and Hemi cars of the same period bring.

 

Signed,

PT Barnum

 

 

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I'm new to this discussion forum and wanted to take the time to make a few points about the "investment" topic that I have not heard from anyone yet.

 

Personally, I think that history has repeated itself once again. Gas is over $3/gallon and has a better than 50/50 chance of only going up from here as the years go by. Sound familiar. That's what killed the Muscle Car the first time. In fact, Muscle Cars where scorned back in the day of OPEC production decreases. Personally, I think there will be a reduction in horespower in the coming years and the 2009 or 2010 GT500 will be scrapped.

 

Secondly, what makes this car a "instant collectible" is the name SHELBY....pure and simple. I've read others talking about SVT's and how they depreciated...so what...it was an SVT....not a SHELBY.

 

Third, I believe it doesn't really matter if they make 8k, 9k or even 10k....I'm holding mine for the long haul. I truly believe, as many others I've talked to, that this will be the last car Carrol Shelby has the time/energy to invest in with Ford and that makes it an "instant classic".

 

Last, I've been talking about this car for the past 2 years. I've always wanted one and I am willing to pay over MSRP to guarantee I get one. Like I said, I'm keeping it forever so what does it matter amortizing any increase I paid over the next 20 years.

 

Oh...one more point is that the number of rich folk in America is going up...not down! Did you know there are more than 100,000 millionaires? If only 8k of them want one...you ain't gettin' one at MSRP....today...tomrrow...next year...next ever!

 

[Guest evilchris]

You go!

 

There is no doubt that these cars will double, nay, triple in value in a short period. They are absolutely the most awesome car ever made I have no doubt.

 

Anyone who won't pay $65k for one of these babies is just plain stupid. I mean, it's got like 800 horse power and runs low 11's in the 1/4, right? What does C&D know anyway?

 

As soon as ol' Carroll goes horizontal... woo....weeeeeeee man, show me the money!!!!

 

If there were 30,000 1968 GT500KR's left, how much ya' think they'd be worth? As it is, they don't bring close to what Camaros and Hemi cars of the same period bring.

 

Signed,

PT Barnum

 

 

rofl

 

I really don't see how people think this car will go up in value right off the truck. Supply is INCREASING.

[rpretzel]

rofl

 

I really don't see how people think this car will go up in value right off the truck. Supply is INCREASING.

 

 

I agree, Evil. This car may retain value better than the average vehicle, but I don't think there's a chance we'll see an increase in value for many, many years (20? 30?).

[Guest evilchris]

I agree, Evil. This car may retain value better than the average vehicle, but I don't think there's a chance we'll see an increase in value for many, many years (20? 30?).

 

 

A good benchmark might be the 1993 Cobra. Much more rare than the GT500 will be, and the last of a generation. They are getting close to their MSRP's, finally, in value.

 

An important thing to remember is the name Shelby is important to people in their 40's 50's. People my age ( 31 ) will remember the 5.0 era which much more fondness. I was born in 1975 and really couldn't care less about the name Shelby, as that era was over before I was born. Honestly, " SVT Cobra " means more to me than " Shelby GT500 ".

[68fastback]

I agree, Evil. This car may retain value better than the average vehicle, but I don't think there's a chance we'll see an increase in value for many, many years (20? 30?).

 

 

 

+1 , rp

 

----------------------------------------

 

and lest we forget, the demise of the muscle car had little to do with the cost of fuel -- that's just the politically correct mantra that the auto manufacturers 'decided' to adopt as the reason. The real reason, as anyone who actually lived through it as an enthusiast knows, is the inability of the automakers (hence their PC revisionist history) to make any high performance cars that could meet the new emissions requirements. Hence no more hi-po cars. For the automakers to admit that as the reason, they'd have to admit they succumbed to that bitterly fought legislation -- the very same legislation that threw the doors to the US auto indistry open to the Japanese who already had small, light cars that could easily meet the new requirements. The rest, as they say, is history.

[mcduck]

Hi Everyone,

 

I'm new to this discussion forum and wanted to take the time to make a few points about the "investment" topic that I have not heard from anyone yet.

 

Personally, I think that history has repeated itself once again. Gas is over $3/gallon and has a better than 50/50 chance of only going up from here as the years go by. Sound familiar. That's what killed the Muscle Car the first time. In fact, Muscle Cars where scorned back in the day of OPEC production decreases. Personally, I think there will be a reduction in horespower in the coming years and the 2009 or 2010 GT500 will be scrapped.

 

Secondly, what makes this car a "instant collectible" is the name SHELBY....pure and simple. I've read others talking about SVT's and how they depreciated...so what...it was an SVT....not a SHELBY.

 

Third, I believe it doesn't really matter if they make 8k, 9k or even 10k....I'm holding mine for the long haul. I truly believe, as many others I've talked to, that this will be the last car Carrol Shelby has the time/energy to invest in with Ford and that makes it an "instant classic".

 

Last, I've been talking about this car for the past 2 years. I've always wanted one and I am willing to pay over MSRP to guarantee I get one. Like I said, I'm keeping it forever so what does it matter amortizing any increase I paid over the next 20 years.

 

Oh...one more point is that the number of rich folk in America is going up...not down! Did you know there are more than 100,000 millionaires? If only 8k of them want one...you ain't gettin' one at MSRP....today...tomrrow...next year...next ever!

 

 

keep dreaming. The short term fact is that this car will depreciate. There are other cars with more limited production and more 'prestigous' badging which are still subject to automotive depreciation.

 

I think the factors you mention are valid, which only means it will depreciate more slowly. However, the first factor you list (gas prices) could actually accelerate depreciation if gas prices actually become a factor for those who own these cars. The long term value is hard to precisely predict... the desirability of this car not only relies on its merits, but also that of other cars produced about the same time. What if Dodge produces a hemi-powered, convertible Challenger and only 1000 are produced? Those could eventually be highly demanded and, as an indirect effect, would cause a minor impact to pricing on a similar type vehicle produced in 10K+ numbers released about the same time.

 

Another point to bring to bear in this discussion is Ford's current financial difficulties. At the moment, they have said they will make GT500s for 2 or 3 years (depending on which source you believe at this point), but with the company hemorraging money right now that could change. No sense if pushing a $40K car if they are moving slowly due to dealer markups when you could make more money mass producing more fuel efficient vehicles, fleet trucks, and so on. Point is... just because they say they'll make them for 3 years doesn't mean they *have* to make them for 3 years. of course, if they went back on this, it would also make the car more desirable.

 

<bleh> I'm really bored at work today to be typing this much on the *potential* long-term collectibility of a brand new car...

[68fastback]

keep dreaming. The short term fact is that this car will depreciate. There are other cars with more limited production and more 'prestigous' badging which are still subject to automotive depreciation.

 

I think the factors you mention are valid, which only means it will depreciate more slowly. However, the first factor you list (gas prices) could actually accelerate depreciation if gas prices actually become a factor for those who own these cars. The long term value is hard to precisely predict... the desirability of this car not only relies on its merits, but also that of other cars produced about the same time. What if Dodge produces a hemi-powered, convertible Challenger and only 1000 are produced? Those could eventually be highly demanded and, as an indirect effect, would cause a minor impact to pricing on a similar type vehicle produced in 10K+ numbers released about the same time.

 

Another point to bring to bear in this discussion is Ford's current financial difficulties. At the moment, they have said they will make GT500s for 2 or 3 years (depending on which source you believe at this point), but with the company hemorraging money right now that could change. No sense if pushing a $40K car if they are moving slowly due to dealer markups when you could make more money mass producing more fuel efficient vehicles, fleet trucks, and so on. Point is... just because they say they'll make them for 3 years doesn't mean they *have* to make them for 3 years. of course, if they went back on this, it would also make the car more desirable.

 

<bleh> I'm really bored at work today to be typing this much on the *potential* long-term collectibility of a brand new car...

 

 

+1 ...that's why I was silent... basically, who knows?

 

But magic big-value increases just because Shelby name on it? Not! If it does turn out very desireable down the road, it will be bacause of things like they were all driven into the ground and not 'saved' (unlikely) or we're all driving Hundais and Suzukis (over my dead body!) or there are newspaper headlines about how a band of car fanatics bought an abandoned Amoco refinery cause the damn hydrogen was blowing holes in their GT500 pistons

 

----------------------------

 

Emailcm, please don't let us scare ya away... no hostility directed at you I'm quite sure... just some strong opinions on this subject (myself included) so please enjoy this site and hang out here with us, ya hear?

 

[mcduck]

+1 ...that's why I was silent... basically, who knows?

 

But magic big-value increases just because Shelby name on it? Not! If it does turn out very desireable down the road, it will be bacause of things like they were all driven into the ground and not 'saved' (unlikely) or we're all driving Hundais and Suzukis (over my dead body!) or there are newspaper headlines about how a band of car fanatics bought an abandoned Amoco refinery cause the damn hydrogen was blowing holes in their GT500 pistons

 

----------------------------

 

Emailcm, please don't let us scare ya away... no hostility directed at you I'm quite sure... just some strong opinions on this subject (myself included) so please enjoy this site and hang out here with us, ya hear?

 

 

hahaha... read that bit above in red and pictured a scene out of Road Warrior (the old Mel Gibson movie) except with a bunch of GT500s chasing him down in the tanker truck.

[68fastback]

hahaha... read that bit above in red and pictured a scene out of Road Warrior (the old Mel Gibson movie) except with a bunch of GT500s chasing him down in the tanker truck.

 

 

 

good visual MC!

 

.

[PhantomAce]

good visual MC!

 

.

 

 

I sure hope the visual he got pictured all of us with better wardrobe and dental work though...

 

Mike.

[68fastback]

I sure hope the visual he got pictured all of us with better wardrobe and dental work though...

 

Mike.

 

 

.... the petrol desperados!

 

------------------

 

btw, newsflash re colectability... saw that Barrett-Jackson just auctioned the first Shelby GT-H. I had read that it was anticipated it might bring as much as $100k! It brought $250K!!!! Sheesh! A lot of sick money out there in the collector world!

[emailcm]

That's exactly one of my points. There are a lot of people with a lot of extra cash who will not doubt buy up all of these cars. I know that 2007 is sold out. I was told that most of the 2008's are going overseas. Actually, I was told that 5k of them are going overseas with confirmed orders. That blew me a way when I heard that, but I guess when I think about it....it makes sense. American Muscle Cars are loved throughout the world. With only say 8k of them getting made, you have to know that they will be scattered across the globe.

[jrichard]

That's exactly one of my points. There are a lot of people with a lot of extra cash who will not doubt buy up all of these cars. I know that 2007 is sold out. I was told that most of the 2008's are going overseas. Actually, I was told that 5k of them are going overseas with confirmed orders. That blew me a way when I heard that, but I guess when I think about it....it makes sense. American Muscle Cars are loved throughout the world. With only say 8k of them getting made, you have to know that they will be scattered across the globe.

 

 

If you want one bad enough (and it sounds like you do), you should go get one and pay ADM. But please don't get sucked into the hype that you might not get one if you don't step up and pay today's price.

 

Just think about the veracity of what you've been "told" or what you "know."

 

For example, you say that all 2007s are sold. This is simply not true. Many many dealers are waiting to get the cars on their lot before they will sell them (or take deposits for them). If you don't believe me, just call around. I've had dealers contact me because their car is in (or soon to be in) and they want to know if I'd like to buy it. ADM? Sure. Sold? Not yet.

 

Second, you were told that "most" of the 2008s are going overseas. That's an interesting concept. If the cars are distributed for retail sale among several thousand dealers in the US, how is it functionally possible that most of those units will wind up overseas? Coordinating thousands of dealers to ship their allotment overseas would be a massive undertaking. The only other logical method would be for Ford to coordinate it. I don't think that's going to happen. And if it's not coordinated, then who is it that could possibly "know" that "most" of these units are headed overseas...with confirmed orders no less? Whoever it is should sell his skills to the CIA...he has knowledge derived from information that likely doesn't exist. The dealers I've spoken with have no idea what they're doing with respect to their potential 2008 allocation. What you've been told just doesn't square with the reality of the market place.

 

Also, your assumption that there are a lot of people with a lot of extra cash who will "no doubt" buy up all of these cars (...at an implied high ADM) doesn't seem to square up either. If there is one thing we can say, it's that the ADM does not get worse from here. So, where are all these buyers when dealers are ready to sell cars on the showroom floor for $20k over and those cars are not moving immediately? Why do eBay bids peter out at MSRP +$15k? Time is the only way to know for certain, but unless this market is different from every market that came before it, we will see prices decline moving forward.

 

So my post might sound critical. It isn't meant to. Actually, it's meant to save you some money if you're paying huge mark up because some dealer fed you a line about '07s being sold out and '08s going overseas. Be informed...if it's worth it to you, then pay extra and get the car. But don't do it without knowing exactly what you're doing and why you're doing it.

 

Oh, and this isn't the last Shelby....

[68fastback]

If you want one bad enough (and it sounds like you do), you should go get one and pay ADM. But please don't get sucked into the hype that you might not get one if you don't step up and pay today's price.

 

Just think about the veracity of what you've been "told" or what you "know."

 

For example, you say that all 2007s are sold. This is simply not true. Many many dealers are waiting to get the cars on their lot before they will sell them (or take deposits for them). If you don't believe me, just call around. I've had dealers contact me because their car is in (or soon to be in) and they want to know if I'd like to buy it. ADM? Sure. Sold? Not yet.

 

Second, you were told that "most" of the 2008s are going overseas. That's an interesting concept. If the cars are distributed for retail sale among several thousand dealers in the US, how is it functionally possible that most of those units will wind up overseas? Coordinating thousands of dealers to ship their allotment overseas would be a massive undertaking. The only other logical method would be for Ford to coordinate it. I don't think that's going to happen. And if it's not coordinated, then who is it that could possibly "know" that "most" of these units are headed overseas...with confirmed orders no less? Whoever it is should sell his skills to the CIA...he has knowledge derived from information that likely doesn't exist. The dealers I've spoken with have no idea what they're doing with respect to their potential 2008 allocation. What you've been told just doesn't square with the reality of the market place.

 

Also, your assumption that there are a lot of people with a lot of extra cash who will "no doubt" buy up all of these cars (...at an implied high ADM) doesn't seem to square up either. If there is one thing we can say, it's that the ADM does not get worse from here. So, where are all these buyers when dealers are ready to sell cars on the showroom floor for $20k over and those cars are not moving immediately? Why do eBay bids peter out at MSRP +$15k? Time is the only way to know for certain, but unless this market is different from every market that came before it, we will see prices decline moving forward.

 

So my post might sound critical. It isn't meant to. Actually, it's meant to save you some money if you're paying huge mark up because some dealer fed you a line about '07s being sold out and '08s going overseas. Be informed...if it's worth it to you, then pay extra and get the car. But don't do it without knowing exactly what you're doing and why you're doing it.

 

Oh, and this isn't the last Shelby....

 

 

+1

 

...and Ford will be announcing another Shelby next week* (according to Wards Auto yesterday)

...and the Boss is coming**

...and a Mach is coming

...and Camaro nd Challenger***

 

Given all of this, it would be inconceivable to me if the GT500 doesn't get to MSRP at some point, maybe evne $500-800 over invoice, by a year from this Feb/March (or a year after that if 3-year run). In fact I don't know of any factory car ever made in line-production quantities that stayed above MSRP throughout its production run. This could be a first, but it's extraordinarily unlikely. Patience is a virtue. And remember, Ford isn't in the business of creating collectables; they're in the business of selling cars and need every sale they can get these days -- they've publically stated they'd make enough of these cars so that everyone who wants one will get one. Though the only hard numbers quoted are 9,000 '07s, they've stated production "is set at 10%" of total mustang production (not a "max of 51%" like the GT). At current production levels that's over 15,000 per year!

 

So, I'm with you JR... waitin' it out!

 

* likely GT350 like the GT-H (power pack, hood, front clip) but also a 6-spd Tremec, at least that's the hot rumor 335HP

** fyi, price of the HRPP 5.0L Cammer (complete FR500 400HP+ crate drop-in) is now down to $14,995 (SVToA members get discount too, I believe)

*** final 'go' is still officially pending (yeah, right!) but it's fairly clear it will be a muscle-car only, no V6 ...5.7 or 6.1 Hemi, at least that's the official tune they're playing