GT500KR - by Shelby?

[68fastback]

Jetsolver, I see where you're coming from and the re-engineering is not trivial, but the Camaro will be IRS and I don't see how the Mustang could ignore that in MY'10. Do you really think the Dana IRS won't happen? Re the engine, it should not be too big a deal to engineer the chassis for either a modular or a Hurricane (vis a vis the classic small/big-block stangs), and an alloy Hurricane is considerably lighter than the GT500 motor. But I certainly agree that it is well beyond SA's capabilities to do that work in Las Vegas. I was thinking, rather, that Ford would serve up the basic Hurricane-IRS mustang platform (probably as a 6.2L NA) and SA would contract the 'KR balls' through someone like Unique Performance in Tx (who did the '67-68 Shelby re-makes over the past couple years under contract to SA) and possibly with engines supplied by Roush (or CS's engine builder in Gardenia, CA who has three Superflow-901 dynos).

 

Clearly that would have to be a very limited production car -- maybe 500-1000. In an LS-6/7 Camaro timeframe I can't see much else Ford can cook-up off the presumed mustang plan -- and I can't believe they'd leave GM unchallenged. Also, Ford has no choice but to offer a big-block stang if they ever plan to re-enter NHRA Pro-stock. For the die-hard racers, there's actually still quite a few FRPP and other aftermarket big-block parts out there to play with too, including bullet-proof (NASCAR cert'd to 2,500HP) full-race prepped blocks with the original 385-series mount locations. So, as a total program, if Ford does the MY'10 stang with the Dana IRS (fairly likely, I think) and any big-block offering, the players and parts are there for some nice offerings. That's more where I was coming (halucinating) from ;-)

[Guest evilchris]

Mustang has never been meant as a vette competitor. Ford needs to reintro the T-Bird *again* and go after the Vette. The original T-bird was supposed to go after the vette and it never happened.

[svttim]

Mustang has never been meant as a vette competitor. Ford needs to reintro the T-Bird *again* and go after the Vette. The original T-bird was supposed to go after the vette and it never happened.

 

 

 

I would actually like to see the GR-1 produced. I think it would be a great replacement for the GT (current competition for the Z06)

[68fastback]

I would actually like to see the GR-1 produced. I think it would be a great replacement for the GT (current competition for the Z06)

 

 

+1 Tim, and if Ford could bring itself to believe the healthy forecast such a car could likely garner, I think it could be priced in the $65-75K range. By that I mean Ford needs to believe in that segment (if the research supports it) and spread the R&D over more than a couple of years and then stay the course.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

To go off on a tangent for a minute (if you'll indulge me), my understanding is Ford is writing off the whole CVT plant they bought a couple years back (intending to protect their interest in the 500's CVT) from brand-X's supplier. Unfortunately, I think Ford got snookered since the incumbent design requires you pull the engine and trans to replace a failed controller; and fix it Ford has, because that controller location has ultimately cost Ford a not-so-small fortune, has damaged the image of the 500 to thousands of customers, while simultaneously causing Ford to write-off a huge investment prematurely. A very damaging lose-lose-lose. That's how a conservative, ethincal, company can get smacket by one that's, well, less so. It's like buying a used car with a known hidden problem from an acquaintance -- you might not seek redress out of sheer embarassment, but you'll never forget what happened, either. But I digress....

 

My point is that for a fraction of what that fix is costing Ford, they could develop and write-off an entire GR-1 program and maybe a couple more. Admittedly, they didn't have much of a choice but to fix the customer and CVT problem regardless of the cause(s) and make some tough business decisions in the process. So why does that seem unquestionably necessary (which admittedly it is) any more than advancing a serious entry into a segment presently untapped by Ford? Of course the easy answer is that one is unambiguous and now unavoidable (CVT customer and business fix) and the other (new revenue) contains risk and is purely optional. But is it really? And therein lies the rub.

 

Ford is now well past the point where they know (in a detatched intellectual sense) that they can't save their way to success, but they now also know (in a living corporate organism sense) that it is through consumately excellent product, both content and targeting, that is the only way back from the brink. Executing on that is what will tear their guts up and challenge their corporate will because it involves taking substantially more risk and doiong it sooner for much greater reward, rather then the Jacque Nasser-inbred low-risk for substantial, but unsustainable, rewards (milking the cash cow). Unfortunately, the latter is the crux of Ford's turnaround dilemma IMO, since success will demand they rediscover (in a living organic way) their well-oiled innovation leadership heritage and execute on it fairly flawlessly and rapidly -- no mean feat.

 

While the GR-1 is far from the largest or most important foray into the new (back to the future) paradigm, it is one that will telegraph the genuine determination of the management team to target any segment of genuine opportunity, even one they've avoided for over 50 years now. Ford undoubtedly has the talent (I think the Ford GT was to convince themselves of that and be a motivational mascot) and the segment appears ripe for another entry. All they need now is the corporate will to make the tough decision that sustainable new revenue is never optional, even in segments that are admittedly not in the center of corporate political correctness.

 

The GR-1 would get my vote. ;-)

[kb67]

Whatever Ford does they better make sure they can step up and drop the hammer on the competition. The way the things are going for them doesn't really lend itself to making a run at the Z06 right now. They need to focus on making us potential customers happy. The GT500 is just a small part of the overall picture but the way the bad blood is flowing between some folks and the dealers is really going to put a kink in the comeback effort.

If I was Ford I'd watch to see which dealers are running the GT500 hype into the ground and suddenly dry up their supply of any Ford cars for awhile. I understand dealers need to make money and ADM is part of the present situation right now. But the way its going down isn't good for anyone Ford, dealers or the customers the idling of plants isn't a good thing for the company's future. I was in the telecommunication industry in 2002 I saw what happens as things like this unfold morale goes down, you wait for the other shoe to fall and prepare to lose a job. Ford could lose alot of talented folks to atttrition they may go to the competition and that can't be good for trying to turn the ship around.

 

 

Just a humble perspective though I hope I'm wrong and Ford does great but some things really have to change to bring that on.

[JETSOLVER]

If I was Ford I'd watch to see which dealers are running the GT500 hype into the ground and suddenly dry up their supply of any Ford cars for awhile. Ford could lose alot of talented folks to atttrition they may go to the competition and that can't be good for trying to turn the ship around.

Just a humble perspective though I hope I'm wrong and Ford does great but some things really have to change to bring that on.

 

Couple thoughts. On the dealer ADM thing, the GT500 is such a public part of the new BOLD Ford that they should be able to at least attend to the first say 4000 cars in such a way as to make an ablsolute success. Having said that, they really are in a bind with the two customers(dealer and uh, well , drivers). They certainly could easily monitor additional cars to the twice MSRP types.

The other thing you touched on is one I have rarely seen addressed anywhere in the business world, and that is how do you prevent losing your BEST employee's in a slowdown, layoff type move. You nailed it when you suggest they might just come back to haunt you. Now I read somewhere that the idled employees get full pay( :wacko: a whole other topic ) but I have rarely seen a company with a consistant way of noteing superior talent. It isn't easy with all those people, but apparently HR is way behind every other part of the corporate world. I know this as I talk every day to people with the big military/aerospace backgrounds who were dumped at the first sign of the "peace dividend" and are now out to stick it to the very firms that layed them off and now need them so desperately. And only incidentaly to the customer(generally the taxpayer)

[kb67]

Couple thoughts. On the dealer ADM thing, the GT500 is such a public part of the new BOLD Ford that they should be able to at least attend to the first say 4000 cars in such a way as to make an ablsolute success. Having said that, they really are in a bind with the two customers(dealer and uh, well , drivers). They certainly could easily monitor additional cars to the twice MSRP types.

 

The other thing you touched on is one I have rarely seen addressed anywhere in the business world, and that is how do you prevent losing your BEST employee's in a slowdown, layoff type move. You nailed it when you suggest they might just come back to haunt you. Now I read somewhere that the idled employees get full pay( :wacko: a whole other topic ) but I have rarely seen a company with a consistant way of noteing superior talent. It isn't easy with all those people, but apparently HR is way behind every other part of the corporate world. I know this as I talk every day to people with the big military/aerospace backgrounds who were dumped at the first sign of the "peace dividend" and are now out to stick it to the very firms that layed them off and now need them so desperately. And only incidentaly to the customer(generally the taxpayer)

 

 

I think Ford would be well served to make a effort to watch how dealers are handling the whole GT500 process. People want the car but if you keep getting kicked by dealers who are trying to max out profit you get to the point that you say Forget it and move on or you wait for something else. Ford needs to sell these things now the dealers who are really making it bad for the rest are easy to find. If Ford released a statement saying for issues with the purchase of the GT500 please call 1-800-XXX-XXX it might make dealers think about what they have to lose over trying to make a killing on selling a few cars. Of course Ford would get the some bogus stuff sent in but they would also have a insight into alot of the dealings some customers are having.

 

 

As for retaining talent it is tough, we where paid normally we worked on internal projects during the downtime but where held back from doing alot of the things we wanted to accomplish due to labor restrictions. Alot of talented folks bolted during that time due to the uneasy and unfamliar situation they found themselves in. Most had never been in a situation like that so panic started whats going to happening next kinda things where the topic of discussion alot. I'm a in the trenches kind of person so I tried to stay busy and get stuff done but it was hard. I was part of the second round of as I called it "the tag and release program". At the point I was cut it was a headcount situation the employee numbers had to drop. I was treated fair it took awhile to get going again but its a part of the deal. Ford can't pay people for doing nothing for long staggering the outages and doing maintainance and upkeep stuff that has to be scheduled helps get the bang for the buck out of that situation. Also helps give folks something meaningful to do other things to focus on. I'm sure every plant has a yearly outage to do repairs and upgrades to equipment that runs on the line 24/7. This time may be a good chance for them to get the house in order so to speak.

[68fastback]

I think Ford would be well served to make a effort to watch how dealers are handling the whole GT500 process. People want the car but if you keep getting kicked by dealers who are trying to max out profit you get to the point that you say Forget it and move on or you wait for something else. Ford needs to sell these things now the dealers who are really making it bad for the rest are easy to find. If Ford released a statement saying for issues with the purchase of the GT500 please call 1-800-XXX-XXX it might make dealers think about what they have to lose over trying to make a killing on selling a few cars. Of course Ford would get the some bogus stuff sent in but they would also have a insight into alot of the dealings some customers are having.

As for retaining talent it is tough, we where paid normally we worked on internal projects during the downtime but where held back from doing alot of the things we wanted to accomplish due to labor restrictions. Alot of talented folks bolted during that time due to the uneasy and unfamliar situation they found themselves in. Most had never been in a situation like that so panic started whats going to happening next kinda things where the topic of discussion alot. I'm a in the trenches kind of person so I tried to stay busy and get stuff done but it was hard. I was part of the second round of as I called it "the tag and release program". At the point I was cut it was a headcount situation the employee numbers had to drop. I was treated fair it took awhile to get going again but its a part of the deal. Ford can't pay people for doing nothing for long staggering the outages and doing maintainance and upkeep stuff that has to be scheduled helps get the bang for the buck out of that situation. Also helps give folks something meaningful to do other things to focus on. I'm sure every plant has a yearly outage to do repairs and upgrades to equipment that runs on the line 24/7. This time may be a good chance for them to get the house in order so to speak.

 

 

Great thoughts and insights. I've seen the pain in the computer industry, but I can see how manufacturing can be a special situation. I heard most of the 30K thru-yearend layoffs-with-pay are white collar, which sounded odd if it's the plant that's being idled; but this might just be my ignorance of the manufacturing end -- probably a lot of white color jobs tied directly to the plants. Or did the media get that wrong.. again? <lol>

 

.

[JETSOLVER]

Check this from Amy Boyle. SVTP/re a special anniversary GT500

[68fastback]

Check this from Amy Boyle. SVTP/re a special anniversary GT500

 

 

Yeah, I saw that -- my first reaction is I hope it's not just decals. Maybe some logo'd Shelby FRP parts?

 

We shall see.

 

.

[JETSOLVER]

Spotted at the Woodward cruise. No further details, however note the grills and wheels????

[amyb]

Guys,

 

Let me give you some info....

 

First, SA is more then capable to build cars. It Build cobras with 750HP, it built the Gt-H, 500 of them in 3 months, and all the work was done by us. They came as stock mustang GT's And we removed everything and we installed everything.

 

We built the Shelby Series One at Las Vegas a great car, from desin to finished product. we have designers, we have engine builders we have fabricators, we have mechanics, and specialists. That said we can build cars for Ford. We are discussing everything now.

 

I will tell you more when I can, but I wanted it known that we don't slap stripes and plates, we build cars, anyone who has taken the tour in the last 4 months has seen that.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Amy

PS_ on the CS6, it wasn't a matter of whether we could build or not, it had to do with other business. We chose to not build them in LV.

[Guest evilchris]

Guys,

 

Let me give you some info....

 

First, SA is more then capable to build cars. It Build cobras with 750HP, it built the Gt-H, 500 of them in 3 months, and all the work was done by us. They came as stock mustang GT's And we removed everything and we installed everything.

 

We built the Shelby Series One at Las Vegas a great car, from desin to finished product. we have designers, we have engine builders we have fabricators, we have mechanics, and specialists. That said we can build cars for Ford. We are discussing everything now.

 

I will tell you more when I can, but I wanted it known that we don't slap stripes and plates, we build cars, anyone who has taken the tour in the last 4 months has seen that.

Thanks

Amy

PS_ on the CS6, it wasn't a matter of whether we could build or not, it had to do with other business. We chose to not build them in LV.

 

 

Amy: You guys rule. I loved the GT-H I rented for 11 days. Can't wait to see what you do next.

 

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel1.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel2.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel3.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel4.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel5.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/seq.JPG

[68fastback]

Spotted at the Woodward cruise. No further details, however note the grills and wheels????

 

 

Nice -- makes it look more serious....

 

Well, I know that grille was talked about a while back as an air-flow prototype for the manracer, but then I thought about that and they don't mandate grilles, to my recollection, in SCCA. So this just might be an 'opinion-gauger' for a 500KR. Btw, that's the very same diagonal stainless wire-mesh that has been used on big-block CS Cobra grilles too -- there might be a lineage statement there (or it just might flow air very well.... or both ;-) And the Ford Racing windshield-banner says this might not be a stock GT500 either (wonder if they opened the hood to see if anyone noticed the twin-screw <lol>).

 

A sequence I've noticed:

spring 06: '07 GT500

1/07: Shelby GT

spring '07: '08 Boss 302 (we think)

1/08: Shelby GT500KR????? (if not in '08 on the 40th anniversary, then when?

 

SA in Vegas can handle swapping the eaton/roots for a Whipple/twin-screw, cai, headers/exhaust. That makes a respectable 650HP GT500 KR, does it not?

 

And with no cam changes (better breathing and more boost that persists at higher revs), that pup will pass emissions easily with the existing ECU reflashed, I think... yes???

 

I like!

 

.

 

 

Amy: You guys rule. I loved the GT-H I rented for 11 days. Can't wait to see what you do next.

 

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel1.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel2.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel3.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel4.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel5.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/seq.JPG

 

 

Nice pics, EC -- thanks!

 

Dan

[amyb]

Amy: You guys rule. I loved the GT-H I rented for 11 days. Can't wait to see what you do next.

 

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel1.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel2.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel3.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel4.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/shel5.JPG

http://www.evilchris.net/images/seq.JPG

 

Hi Chris, great pics, I am glad you liked the car, it is a well balanced ride and a good car. Ford SVT , marketing and FR, brainstormed with my team to come up with this well balanced ride and it couldn't have turned out better.

 

Thanks for the pics!!!

 

 

Amy

[68fastback]

Guys,

 

Let me give you some info....

 

First, SA is more then capable to build cars. It Build cobras with 750HP, it built the Gt-H, 500 of them in 3 months, and all the work was done by us. They came as stock mustang GT's And we removed everything and we installed everything.

 

We built the Shelby Series One at Las Vegas a great car, from desin to finished product. we have designers, we have engine builders we have fabricators, we have mechanics, and specialists. That said we can build cars for Ford. We are discussing everything now.

 

I will tell you more when I can, but I wanted it known that we don't slap stripes and plates, we build cars, anyone who has taken the tour in the last 4 months has seen that.

Thanks

Amy

PS_ on the CS6, it wasn't a matter of whether we could build or not, it had to do with other business. We chose to not build them in LV.

 

 

 

Amy, you convinved me...

 

Now we need Ford to give you a big-block so you can give us 750HP 'stangs

 

Thanks again for all you do.

-Dan

 

.

[wflores]

If you want to specifically get on the waiting list to order a 2008 Shelby gt500 or KR, how do you

get on the list?

 

My wife and I are selling our 2001 Z06 (only 15K miles) specifically in anticipation of buying a 2008

model year "SuperSnake" .....

Hopefully, by then all the outrageous "hype pricing" will have subsided with

anticipation of the upcoming "Boss", the recent release of the Shelby GT, and also the rumored release

of the Shelby Cobra Concept.......

[MuscleManiac]

Weight there talking about the shelby cobra concept again? I thought that was killed off awhile ago, u have proof of this Wflores or are u just getting my hopes up, lol. And the super snake, you think we will see a new super snake that be awesome, and idk y CS wouldent do it if hes making old super snakes, idc if it was 200k dollar car Ill never own one but id love to brag to all the vette guys about it, lol.

[68fastback]

I'm still hoping that the Cobra-II concept will be built too. Who knows, maybe as Shelby Autos gets into more and more complex builds, they may be able to assemble a Cobra-II like Saleen did the Ford GT.

 

I can hope, anyway ;-)

 

.

[MustangFanatic]

Nice -- makes it look more serious....

 

Well, I know that grille was talked about a while back as an air-flow prototype for the manracer, but then I thought about that and they don't mandate grilles, to my recollection, in SCCA. So this just might be an 'opinion-gauger' for a 500KR. Btw, that's the very same diagonal stainless wire-mesh that has been used on big-block CS Cobra grilles too -- there might be a lineage statement there (or it just might flow air very well.... or both ;-) And the Ford Racing windshield-banner says this might not be a stock GT500 either (wonder if they opened the hood to see if anyone noticed the twin-screw <lol>).

 

A sequence I've noticed:

spring 06: '07 GT500

1/07: Shelby GT

spring '07: '08 Boss 302 (we think)

1/08: Shelby GT500KR????? (if not in '08 on the 40th anniversary, then when?

 

SA in Vegas can handle swapping the eaton/roots for a Whipple/twin-screw, cai, headers/exhaust. That makes a respectable 650HP GT500 KR, does it not?

 

And with no cam changes (better breathing and more boost that persists at higher revs), that pup will pass emissions easily with the existing ECU reflashed, I think... yes???

 

I like!

 

.

Nice pics, EC -- thanks!

 

Dan

 

 

Definitely agree, love the "updated" GT500 look. My only question would be has someone simply updated their personal GT500 with these items or is this a Ford produced exercise? Inquiring minds want to know!!

[68fastback]

Definitely agree, love the "updated" GT500 look. My only question would be has someone simply updated their personal GT500 with these items or is this a Ford produced exercise? Inquiring minds want to know!!

 

 

The red GT500 wearing that same grille ('spy' photo? -- couple of months ago) was believed to be for additional cooling for the man-racer, so I figured it's Ford behind it. This white one may be unrelated -- dunno (but it does have an FR banner on the windshield, for what that's worth). Curious that Shelby has used the exact same material on some of their CSX Cobras. Maybe that portends a Shelby build on the GT500 base?

[MustangFanatic]

The red GT500 wearing that same grille ('spy' photo? -- couple of months ago) was believed to be for additional cooling for the man-racer, so I figured it's Ford behind it. This white one may be unrelated -- dunno (but it does have an FR banner on the windshield, for what that's worth). Curious that Shelby has used the exact same material on some of their CSX Cobras. Maybe that portends a Shelby build on the GT500 base?

 

 

I believe that is the next step for Ford and SA. Not doing such a model would be HUGE misstep and a missed opportunity for Ford. Question is, will it arrive in '08 or '09??

[68fastback]

I believe that is the next step for Ford and SA. Not doing such a model would be HUGE misstep and a missed opportunity for Ford. Question is, will it arrive in '08 or '09??

 

 

 

Dunno, but can't believe they'd pass up it being an "'08", ...but it could be later in '08 since the original was a mid-year offering, I think... so, they have quite a bit of flexibility while making it still 'fit.' Of course, anytimg they do it, it will be a big success I think. It's like Chrostmas again... just wish I has more to spend

[MustangFanatic]

Dunno, but can't believe they'd pass up it being an "'08", ...but it could be later in '08 since the original was a mid-year offering, I think... so, they have quite a bit of flexibility while making it still 'fit.' Of course, anytimg they do it, it will be a big success I think. It's like Chrostmas again... just wish I has more to spend

 

 

You and me both, my friend!!! I have cavier dreams on a water budget...

[kb67]

 

A sequence I've noticed:

spring 06: '07 GT500

1/07: Shelby GT

spring '07: '08 Boss 302 (we think)

1/08: Shelby GT500KR????? (if not in '08 on the 40th anniversary, then when?

 

SA in Vegas can handle swapping the eaton/roots for a Whipple/twin-screw, cai, headers/exhaust. That makes a respectable 650HP GT500 KR, does it not?

 

And with no cam changes (better breathing and more boost that persists at higher revs), that pup will pass emissions easily with the existing ECU reflashed, I think... yes???

 

 

 

Theres something missing whats the release time for the FRRP performance packs, those would be in the mix for doing a KR version. Ford hasn't said anything else about when they would appear. Steeda already has some things avaliable most of which are suspension parts, Kenne Bell has a supercharger package in the works. And from what I'm gathering in the forums I'm passing though most of the aftermarket vendors are trying to get GT500s to use for mock ups to start putting things together to offer for upgrades.

 

I guess my point here is Ford has had the car from the beginning :D they should be ready to roll something out by now. We know that SA will be partnering with Ford so a warranty has to be in there somewhere so using the Ford packs would make the most viable option if a KR is going to come about.

 

I'm sure a GT500 can make alot of power but getting the right tune thats safe may take some work I'm sure Ford knows exactly whats needed there to get more reliable power out of the motor. Maybe they will turn loose of it soon.

 

A KR introduction may be used to keep Dodge at bay with the Challenger they are coming out with. You know GM and Dodge are looking to outdo Ford. So maybeFord is looking to bring the heat later on to hammer the competition.

 

 

Sad thing in my opinion is if Ford doesn't make sure they can get cars out in a amount to help with ADMs making these great cars won't get them anywhere in regards to market position. Just my thoughts though on that. I know ADM has been beaten to death.

[68fastback]

Theres something missing whats the release time for the FRRP performance packs, those would be in the mix for doing a KR version. Ford hasn't said anything else about when they would appear. Steeda already has some things avaliable most of which are suspension parts, Kenne Bell has a supercharger package in the works. And from what I'm gathering in the forums I'm passing though most of the aftermarket vendors are trying to get GT500s to use for mock ups to start putting things together to offer for upgrades.

 

I guess my point here is Ford has had the car from the beginning :D they should be ready to roll something out by now. We know that SA will be partnering with Ford so a warranty has to be in there somewhere so using the Ford packs would make the most viable option if a KR is going to come about.

 

I'm sure a GT500 can make alot of power but getting the right tune thats safe may take some work I'm sure Ford knows exactly whats needed there to get more reliable power out of the motor. Maybe they will turn loose of it soon.

 

A KR introduction may be used to keep Dodge at bay with the Challenger they are coming out with. You know GM and Dodge are looking to outdo Ford. So maybeFord is looking to bring the heat later on to hammer the competition.

Sad thing in my opinion is if Ford doesn't make sure they can get cars out in a amount to help with ADMs making these great cars won't get them anywhere in regards to market position. Just my thoughts though on that. I know ADM has been beaten to death.

 

 

KB67, all excellent points, I think.

 

Fanatic and I have been 'strategising' a bit on staging/timing... and you are correct that FRP parts would need to be there -- I think SA would likely (possibly even be compeled to) use FRP parts, but dunno. My assumption is that if Ford goes that way, they FRP will provide the 'branded' goodies. I will keep my eyes peeled at SEMA this Oct for a one-off build in the Ford area but likely with some partner's name on the build (that's the way Ford 'tests' the watters, it seems).

 

The 'gap' I'm concerned about is pre-refresh/big-block (CY'08/MY'09 assuming refresh is MY'10) since there's only so far the modular can be pushed in a production context, probably 550-600HP as a warrantied Ford production motor and 600-650 from SA/partner (? dunno). Making the HP is much less of a problem, IMO, than doing it at reasonable expense, within emissions, and within Ford's typically conservative mind-set (may be changing??).

 

Eventually big-block bore-spacing should reset that game, potentially starting with a nice oversquare NA Boss 5.8/351 (with a 'square' point of 385CID or so). If Ford doesn't do an alloy 'big block' soon (MY'10) it will be a huge mistake IMO. The F-series needs a 'branded motor' and more cubes to compete in some truck segments with the 'hemi', so let's pay for the basic engineering in the trucks and then lever that into a modern larger-CID version of the mod (S/DOHC 3V/4V) for the hi-po rear-drive crowd (which by then must include a PI Panther replacement which might very well be based on the Mustang or D30/35 chassis). At least that's the context behind where I was coming from. And your comments are certainly valid in that context too; I was just making some base assumptions as a point-of-departure prior to the above discussions (and in the Boss threads -- sorry for the discontinuity;-)

 

An irony I see is DCX has the 'vaunted' [fake] hemi, a pushrod beast but with great 'loyalty', and its low HP/CID ratio makes it easy to make power with relatively low emissions. Given that Ford will be branding the new big-block "The Boss" (if it's true) a 2V version in the trucks and a 3V (maybe later 4V) in the 'stang would provide the springboard to a whole new level of mustang fun. (I've heard that Ford might have cyl-deactivation as early as '08 in the F-series -- no hard facts to support that tho).

 

I think that's what Ford needs to fend off DCX and GM (along with the slick Dana IRS [Aussie GT-P] and a substantially lightened base offering) in a couple of years. GM's small block, while venerable in it's own right, is still facing some long-stroke/CID constraints, just on a slightly larger bore-spacing and slightly taller deck-height than the Ford modular. Ford could bring back their venerable small-block (a beefed tall deck 351 version might be adequate) since they will stroke to 427/9 (you know that's gotta happen), but at that CID the stroke and rod-angles are as severe as the current mod and the GM LSs, and you start needing expensive materials to make them rev safely and hold-off excessive wear (a definate problem with the bigger-CID GM small-block LS-series - hence titanium components, etc), doable at 'Vette price-points but maybe not at Mustang's. I'd rather see some of that money spent instead on an alloy 'big' block that can match the GM/DCX CIDs with modest-cost components and still be slightly oversquare. Potentially that yields good price points, relatively light weight (in alloy lighter than the GT500 motor), great rev NA rev-range and leaves room for much more.

 

Do you think this big-block logic makes sense? A big-block is not the only scenario (sm-blk, V10 being two others), but I think it's fairly optimizeable on performance, weight, price, and business leverage and still would do honor to a vigorous "BOSS" branding campaign (which Ford seems set on doing). Of course, having another Boss 429 come along would not be a bad by-product either

 

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[kb67]

I think your thought process is right on track Ford needs to be ready to bring the heat. To step up and put out a new Boss they need to be right there elbow to elbow wiith anything Dodge or Chevy can bring forward. I think the next Boss will be a NA engine, I have feeling Jack Roush may working on it for them. He is offering a Roush truck based on the F-150. Just speculating though. I'd guess the big block would become the Boss motor. I believe Ford would go V-10 in the Cobra if it every came into being.

 

Ford is being keen to tie everything to the older mustang so a modular 351 or maybe a 429 offering would make it a identifiable to the orginal offerings. One thing I think Ford is messing up on is the name Branding thing using Shelby's name to get the extra zing. They could have made it have the zing without his name on it the naming of the car makes expectations rise in all sorts of areas about true value an a host of other things.

 

If Ford goes with a Boss they need to let the car speak for itself with performance instead of heaping hype up on it.

[68fastback]

I think your thought process is right on track Ford needs to be ready to bring the heat. To step up and put out a new Boss they need to be right there elbow to elbow wiith anything Dodge or Chevy can bring forward. I think the next Boss will be a NA engine, I have feeling Jack Roush may working on it for them. He is offering a Roush truck based on the F-150. Just speculating though. I'd guess the big block would become the Boss motor. I believe Ford would go V-10 in the Cobra if it every came into being.

 

Ford is being keen to tie everything to the older mustang so a modular 351 or maybe a 429 offering would make it a identifiable to the orginal offerings. One thing I think Ford is messing up on is the name Branding thing using Shelby's name to get the extra zing. They could have made it have the zing without his name on it the naming of the car makes expectations rise in all sorts of areas about true value an a host of other things.

 

If Ford goes with a Boss they need to let the car speak for itself with performance instead of heaping hype up on it.

 

+1... and Amen to he last sentence, kb :happy feet:

 

.!

[kb67]

Jetsolver posted a article about the GT500 had a sidebar talking about the status of SVT as a entity within Ford seems they did shut the door and turn out the lights on. Even sold their SVT semi now thats a bad sign. This article reaffirms the outside partnerships we are hearing about. I want SA to do well but I would want something for my money I'd want a 350Hp car in the Shelby GT. You have 4 major vendors doing mustangs now Saleen, Roush, Steeda and SA. I would prefer SVT in there to they kinda set the bar for the rest of the vendors to match. To take SVT out of the development role and do it like any other product isn't catering to your base Ford high performance customer. You need something like SVT around to work on your ideas and develop new performance platforms to pass that off to vendors isn't a way to right the ship you giving away something that you built into a brand identifier.

 

 

 

Article link:

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/inde...?showtopic=2921

[carnut]

Jetsolver posted a article about the GT500 had a sidebar talking about the status of SVT as a entity within Ford seems they did shut the door and turn out the lights on. Even sold their SVT semi now thats a bad sign. This article reaffirms the outside partnerships we are hearing about. I want SA to do well but I would want something for my money I'd want a 350Hp car in the Shelby GT. You have 4 major vendors doing mustangs now Saleen, Roush, Steeda and SA. I would prefer SVT in there to they kinda set the bar for the rest of the vendors to match. To take SVT out of the development role and do it like any other product isn't catering to your base Ford high performance customer. You need something like SVT around to work on your ideas and develop new performance platforms to pass that off to vendors isn't a way to right the ship you giving away something that you built into a brand identifier.

Article link:

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forums/inde...?showtopic=2921

 

Having had a number if SVT products and regular production Fords, I have to agree with you whole heartedly. Each of the SVT examples was a well thought out and devloped product complete with testing to validate their modifications.

 

I too lament the going of SVT. Anyone truly know any different/