DIY Alignment - what basic equipment do I need?

[jmn444]

B is still right, 1/8" toe means the front is 1/8" narrower than the rear.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

So is B still right then?

 

 

I'm confusing myself trying to read your comments...I need to SEE something to make sense of it, not read it (I'm a tactile/visual learner).

 

But here's how I'd describe it.

 

1/8" Toe-OUT would mean that the front tires are pointed a TOTAL of 1/8th inch OUTWARD, from zero.

 

In order to keep the steering wheel centered, you would adjust each tire OUT by 1/16th inch for a TOTAL of 1/8th inch.

 

Which means the rear of the tire would be toed IN 1/8th inch, for a DELTA of 1/4".

 

At least that's how I understand and visualize it.

 

I'll defer to Albino500 for confirmation since IMO he knows way more about front end suspension, alignment and steering than I do.

 

 

Phill

[07SGT5687]

Even using the centerline, overall diameter does technically have an affect on the toe measurement... 1/8" in on a 25" tire is more degrees toe than the same measurement on a 28" tire. I think it's splitting hairs though as it's not enough to really matter IMO.

 

One thing I like about toe plates is that it's a consistent measurement point.

 

 

Ok... thanks for clarifying that. I was having a hard time getting past the part that diameter doesn't matter. But I do see how it seems to be a negligible amount. I was actually trying to sketch it to scale and the amount was so small I couldn't even sketch it.

 

I asked another buddy of mine last night who is a mechanic for a GT3 Cup team and he suggested I start at .5mm toe in for street... .5mm toe out for track. That seems VERY minimal no?

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Ok... thanks for clarifying that. I was having a hard time getting past the part that diameter doesn't matter. But I do see how it seems to be a negligible amount. I was actually trying to sketch it to scale and the amount was so small I couldn't even sketch it.

 

I asked another buddy of mine last night who is a mechanic for a GT3 Cup team and he suggested I start at .5mm toe in for street... .5mm toe out for track. That seems VERY minimal no?

 

 

5mm = 5/16"

 

4/16th = 1/4 so that's over 1/4" toe. That's a ton considering OE spec is Zero (0) d.

 

*I* wouldn't set mine to 1/4" toe, in or out.

 

 

Phill

[jmn444]

.5mm = 1/2mm

 

that point is hard to see!

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Even using the centerline, overall diameter does technically have an affect on the toe measurement... 1/8" in on a 25" tire is more degrees toe than the same measurement on a 28" tire. I think it's splitting hairs though as it's not enough to really matter IMO.

 

 

Let's think about this for a second. I like to exaggerate things to get a better picture of what we're looking at.

 

Let's say you have a 4 inch diameter tire. You set the inside edge 1/8" closer to the other side and you have 1/8" toe-in.

 

Now let's say you have a 400 inch diameter tire. You set the inside edge 1/8" closer to the other side and you have 1/8" toe-in.

 

In either situation, 1/8" toe-in is 1/8" toe-in. Whether it's inches or degrees (because you are measuring from tire to tire, regardless of diameter).

 

Am I right?

 

Or am I fooling myself into thinking incorrectly?

 

 

Phill

[jmn444]

4" diam vs 400" diam would be DRASTICALLY different in effective toe. Not so much when talking about actual tire diameters for street.

 

Think of a triangle, and pick one corner. That angle stays the same, but the longer the sides are that connect to it, the longer the line across from it will be.

[07SGT5687]

I think you are both "right". It would still be 1/8" toe in both situations, but the angle IN of the 4" wheel would be - like jmn444 said - drastically more than than of the 400" diameter wheel.

 

1/8" Toe-OUT would mean that the front tires are pointed a TOTAL of 1/8th inch OUTWARD, from zero.

 

In order to keep the steering wheel centered, you would adjust each tire OUT by 1/16th inch for a TOTAL of 1/8th inch.

 

Which means the rear of the tire would be toed IN 1/8th inch, for a DELTA of 1/4".

 

Ok, so that's B (in my mind). But It only makes sense to me that you'd measure toe from zero toe on each side. Because the are adjusted individually and not relative to each other. I get saying if one side as 1/16" out and the other has 1/16" out , saying there is a total of 1/8" toe out in the car, but what if one side has 1/8" out and the other side is zero - that's also a net of 1/8" toe out, but it doesn't really accurately portray how the car is setup. Seems to me that the proper or ideal way to measure would be each side from centerline. Example: Drivers side 1" toe in and passenger side 1" toe out would net "Zero toe", but it's WAY not true. I would think stating measuring right and left from an absolute zero would be ideal.

 

Or maybe that's what you are all saying and I'm not awake enough to hear it today!

 

Bottomline is I'm going to set up 2 string lines on either side of the car. To set ZERO TOE, I'm going to make sure that are perfectly distanced equally from each side of the car. I'm then going to adjust the tie rods - while maintaining a perfectly centered steering wheel - so both front and rear edges of each rim, become equally distanced to the string.

 

Right so far? I then have zero toe?

 

Then, to set 1/8" toe in. I'm going to adjust first the drivers side tie rod in by 1/16". thus created a total drivers side toe in of 1/8" (1/16" in front, 1/16" out rear). Repeat on passenger side, all the while checking for perfectly centered steering. Thus resulting in 1/8" toe in PER side, or what might be considered 1/4" TOTAL toe in on the car.

 

My brain is sweating... did that sound right?

[07SGT5687]

.5mm = 1/2mm

 

that point is hard to see!

 

 

that does seem pointless, no?

[07SGT5687]

btw, you are all welcome for today's mind F*&k!

[Kevin Patten]

REALLY ? Look if both front wheels are pointed PERFECTLY AHEAD (perpendicular to the axle centerline) L/F /front outside of tire to R/F /front outside of tire = 74" exactly and L/F /rear outside of tire to R/F rear outside of tire = 74" can you agree / understand that is "ZERO TOE" ?

 

Now if I take my L/F tie rod and adjust it to point out (lengthen it on a S197 because it has the steering linkage in front of the axle centerline / shorten it on an early car because the steering linkage is behind the axle centerline) so that it moves the front of the L/F tire out 1/16" of an inch I will have a measurement of 74-1/16" across the front of the 2 front tires and a measurement of 73-15/16" at the rear of the 2 front tires , which means that I have a difference of 1/8" aka 1/8" TOE OUT . If I go to the R/F and do the same - move the front of the tire out 1/16" . I will have now a reading of 74-1/8" on the front side and 73-7/8" on the back side causing me to have 1/4" TOE OUT.

 

It's not an angle like you think it's a measurement - It's a difference in distance as measured !

[07SGT5687]

So what do you call this?

 

 

A - 1/16" toe in? -------------> the front of each wheel is turned in 1/16" from centerline

B - 1/8" toe in? ---------------> each side has a total toe differential of 1/8" (1/16" toe in in front, 1/16" toe out in back)

C - 1/4" toe in? ---------------> The difference between the fronts of both rims and the backs of both rims is 1/4".

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand GO!

 

EDIT - Simulpost. I get that you (Albino500) would call that 1/4" toe in.

[2010KonaBlueGT]

REALLY ? Look if both front wheels are pointed PERFECTLY AHEAD (perpendicular to the axle centerline) L/F /front outside of tire to R/F /front outside of tire = 74" exactly and L/F /rear outside of tire to R/F rear outside of tire = 74" can you agree / understand that is "ZERO TOE" ?

 

Now if I take my L/F tie rod and adjust it to point out (lengthen it on a S197 because it has the steering linkage in front of the axle centerline / shorten it on an early car because the steering linkage is behind the axle centerline) so that it moves the front of the L/F tire out 1/16" of an inch I will have a measurement of 74-1/16" across the front of the 2 front tires and a measurement of 73-15/16" at the rear of the 2 front tires , which means that I have a difference of 1/8" aka 1/8" TOE OUT . If I go to the R/F and do the same - move the front of the tire out 1/16" . I will have now a reading of 74-1/8" on the front side and 73-7/8" on the back side causing me to have 1/4" TOE OUT.

 

 

ARGH! My fucking brain hurts!

 

I set mine to 0d/0" so I don't have to worry about any of this! <LOL>

 

And when I use a alignment machine, I just adjust the tie rods (with steering wheel centered) to the recommended spec .

 

 

Phill

[07SGT5687]

But buy that measurement practice, could you not have 1/8" toe out on one side, 1/8" toe in on the other side, equaling ZERO toe (cancelling out) even though your wheels are anything but zero toe (perfectly ahead) on a centered steering wheel?

[2010KonaBlueGT]

.5mm = 1/2mm

that point is hard to see!

 

 

HUH? 5 millimeters equals one half millimeter?

 

I must be blind....

 

Ohhhh, I see it now. POINT 5mm!

 

I don't know that I have the ability or the tool to measure 1/2mm toe in/out!

 

 

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

But buy that measurement practice, could you not have 1/8" toe out on one side, 1/8" toe in on the other side, equaling ZERO toe (cancelling out) even though your wheels are anything but zero toe (perfectly ahead) on a centered steering wheel?

 

 

Yes and no. Yes, you would have ZERO toe but your wheels would be pointed off to one side causing you to have the steering wheel slightly turned in order to go in a straight line.

 

That can bring up a whole 'nuther can of worms, with a steering box or rack that isn't centered.

 

 

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

.5mm = 1/2mm

 

that point is hard to see!

 

 

If I was a smart-ass I'd say, "You have a point...Now put a hat on it!" :happy feet:

 

 

Smart-ass emeritus,

 

Phill

[07SGT5687]

Yes and no. Yes, you would have ZERO toe but your wheels would be pointed off to one side causing you to have the steering wheel slightly turned in order to go in a straight line.

 

That can bring up a whole 'nuther can of worms, with a steering box or rack that isn't centered.

 

 

Phill

 

 

That's why I have a fundamental issue with measuring it as a total from side to side... It doesn't actually tell you what is TRULY going on. To exaggerate it as Phill suggested... you could be 4" in on one side and 4" out on the other and "technically" that's ZERO TOE? I don't think so.

 

Seems to make much more sense to treat each side as one measurement from centerline, aka perfectly forward, aka absolute zero toe.

 

Just my $0.02... or $0.05 for you Canadians...

[2010KonaBlueGT]

That's why I have a fundamental issue with measuring it as a total from side to side... It doesn't actually tell you what is TRULY going on. To exaggerate it as Phill suggested... you could be 4" in on one side and 4" out on the other and "technically" that's ZERO TOE? I don't think so.

Seems to make much more sense to treat each side as one measurement from centerline, aka perfectly forward, aka absolute zero toe.

Just my $0.02... or $0.05 for you Canadians...

 

 

Yes, "technically" that would be zero toe but I'm not sure how Ackerman affects it.

 

And also the reason you CENTER and LOCK the steering wheel in the center position. Not 'close', but EXACTLY. I use a bungee cord through the 6 o'clock spoke, hooked under the drivers seat to keep the wheel centered. When in the field, we had a lock tool to keep it centered (looked kind of like a steering wheel lock device).

 

You MUST center and lock the wheel when adjusting toe. I also locked it for Camber. Caster requires you to set the wheel at 20 degrees, level the bubble, turn the wheel the other way to 20 degrees (40 d total) and read the Caster.

 

Until we went to a LASER machine, which just tells you to turn the wheel then stop, return the wheel, blah X 3.

 

 

Phill

[07SGT5687]

Lesson of this all... I need to save my pennies and get one of this magical laser machines!

[jmn444]

REALLY ? Look if both front wheels are pointed PERFECTLY AHEAD (perpendicular to the axle centerline) L/F /front outside of tire to R/F /front outside of tire = 74" exactly and L/F /rear outside of tire to R/F rear outside of tire = 74" can you agree / understand that is "ZERO TOE" ?

 

Now if I take my L/F tie rod and adjust it to point out (lengthen it on a S197 because it has the steering linkage in front of the axle centerline / shorten it on an early car because the steering linkage is behind the axle centerline) so that it moves the front of the L/F tire out 1/16" of an inch I will have a measurement of 74-1/16" across the front of the 2 front tires and a measurement of 73-15/16" at the rear of the 2 front tires , which means that I have a difference of 1/8" aka 1/8" TOE OUT . If I go to the R/F and do the same - move the front of the tire out 1/16" . I will have now a reading of 74-1/8" on the front side and 73-7/8" on the back side causing me to have 1/4" TOE OUT.

 

It's not an angle like you think it's a measurement - It's a difference in distance as measured !

 

 

Yes, it's a difference in measurement, I think the point of the conversation is simply that 1/8" toe is not always the right answer. I agree that if you are intending to align to 1/8" toe on any given tire diameter that you would measure it exactly the same, I was just talking about angles because tire diameter DOES matter in the extremes since it was brought up. I don't think it matters at all in the normal range of tire sizes found on street cars.

[Kevin Patten]

But buy that measurement practice, could you not have 1/8" toe out on one side, 1/8" toe in on the other side, equaling ZERO toe (cancelling out) even though your wheels are anything but zero toe (perfectly ahead) on a centered steering wheel?

 

CORRECT

 

AND YES "C" IS THE CORRECT ANSWER

 

As far as your comment of making sure that the steering wheel is level (pointed straight ahead) you are referring to "individual toe" or "centerline toe"

Are you ready to go there ? you must have a grasp on "Toe" before understanding "individual toe"

[07SGT5687]

CORRECT

 

AND YES "C" IS THE CORRECT ANSWER

 

As far as your comment of making sure that the steering wheel is level (pointed straight ahead) you are referring to "individual toe" or "centerline toe"

Are you ready to go there ? you must have a grasp on "Toe" before understanding "individual toe"

 

 

Post #42... does it sound like I get it? Seriously, you tell me. That's my current understanding of how toe works and the different ways one could approach it.... right or wrong.

 

Please teach on! Unless this is going to give you an ulcer... you seem a little worked up.

[Kevin Patten]

I'm good with all of it . I just can't type as fast as you guys.

 

Let me ask a question here - why are you interested in toe ? Just to set up the car ? Correct for a tire wear problem ? Be able to make a change at the track and then reset for daily driving ? Damn alignment shop can't seem to give you a level steering wheel after aligning your car ? OTHER ? :D

[jmn444]

I think I mis-read some of the early questions as well, I didn't realize you were giving measurements for just one side when you talked about adjusting 1/16" from centerline, I took that as 1/16" more total width between the front of the tires, and 1/16" narrower between the rear of the tires....

 

Sorry if I added to the confusion!

[07SGT5687]

Let me ask a question here - why are you interested in toe ? Just to set up the car ? Correct for a tire wear problem ? Be able to make a change at the track and then reset for daily driving ? Damn alignment shop can't seem to give you a level steering wheel after aligning your car ?

 

YES!

 

But if I had to put them in order...

 

1. I just put coilovers on and that combined with a residual track setup someone did for me last year...

2. I want to be able to make a change at the track and then reset for daily driving

3. I can't find a shop that will set me up for track and daily driving for anything in the realm of a reasonable fee, nor have I found a shop I trust.

 

I'm a google/forum trained tinkerer for the most part and I believe I can do just about anything with my car by asking enough questions (if you haven't noticed)... and this is just one more area where I'd like to learn to DIY.

[Kevin Patten]

OK , cool

Are you or do you change the camber back and forth for track verses street ? Or do you want to just stick with learning what "toe changes only " does for you and Stella before going to the next changes?

 

2) not a problem with making changes @ the track (don't want you to hurt Stella) Do you have a pyrometer to measure tire temps ? Are you experiencing understeer at corner entry to mid corner or having an initial push that doesn't go away throughout the corner ?

 

3) Understandable

[07SGT5687]

OK , cool

Are you or do you change the camber back and forth for track verses street ? Or do you want to just stick with learning what "toe changes only " does for you and Stella before going to the next changes?

 

Yes, I have the Shelby/MM CC plates and "had" a Street and Track setting marked, but since the coilover install, I'm not confident that those markings are real anymore. I think I need to reset to street - mark - reset to track - mark... plus I'd like to try and start experimenting at the track.

 

2) not a problem with making changes @ the track (don't want you to hurt Stella) Do you have a pyrometer to measure tire temps ? Are you experiencing understeer at corner entry to mid corner or having an initial push that doesn't go away throughout the corner ?

 

I do not have a pyrometer. I very rarely experience understeer. Only about one place that I can remember consistently experiencing it a little. Exit of a mid-high speed, sweeping, off-camber, uphill turn (turn 7 @ HPR). Plenty of oversteer, but that's more of me trying to put the power down a scotch to early. But before the car had the Whipple, it used to have a bit of push... I think I just got used to throttling up and out of understeer to get it to turn.. .if that makes any sense.

[Kevin Patten]

Glad to hear that you're not afraid of the pedal on the right. I suggest that you get a pyrometer and have a dedicated tire pressure gauge with you. As far as alignment settings go from what you're telling me I would say that all you need to be adjusting for the track is Camber and whether it's for the street or for the track you will want to have the camber equal on both sides( not -1 on the right and -3 on left ) . Toe will need to be checked each time you make a change because it is affected . As far as Caster goes just go with max positive (back on the c/c plate) on the RIGHT FRONT and then start at the midway point on the LEFT FRONT side c/c plate . The difference in Caster side to side will be determined by the STREET driving that you do to determine the spread between right and left that is needed to have ( if it drifts off to the right - move the R/F c/c plate forward to take out some of the positive caster - aka increase the spread ) (if it drifts off to the left - move the R/F c/c plate more to the rear of the car in order to decrease the spread) once that you have it to where the car will go straight when you take your hands off of the steering wheel mark the plates so you have a reference line for the front to back movement . (race tracks are not crowned and you don't drive on just the right side of the track and the amount of camber gain from caster will not be an issue due to having a spread in it side to side). Camber will be one for you to play with since that effects tire wear and grip along with you using a different tire/wheel set up for the track than the street . Changing Camber will be easy if you remember to only move the plate in / out NOT forward /back (that's Caster) and you probably will want to make a witness mark to make sure that you don't go forward/back as you move the plate in/out for your settings. Toe is the last setting in doing an alignment . The toe setting is going to effect the corner entry to mid corner only and it IS the NUMBER 1 tire wearing angle/measurement . Just to throw in a note here if the car handles better on left turns then right turns or vis-a-versa then you should be changing your corner weight settings . Also , the stiffer end slides out first ( aka mid corner to exit back end comes out(loose) you should set the rear sway bar to a softer setting or put in softer rear springs or even remove the rear sway bar ) You always want to have some throttle controlled oversteer as to be able to rotate the car in the direction that you want it to go but not too much where as your late to the dance coming off of a corner . Corner exit speed is much more important than corner entry speed . So ...

 

1) string ( with a fishing hook on 1 end )

2) tape measure

3) camber gauge

4) level surface

5) toe plates ( for ease )

 

oh and of course.... JMO

[TurboGT]

Albino,

Thanks for removing all the "math" from the explanation - much easier to understand.