Questions by dummies: post any question here!

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Clutch slipping maybe?

 

I might have found the culprit. When I put the FRPP/Whipple 2.9L supercharger on it I had to route a wiring harness very close to the EGR tube that runs from the exh. to the EGR valve. I also added a electronic Vac/Boost gauge and mounted the TMAP Sensor on the lip of the cowl, with the wires through a split corregated plastic conduit. I *think* the smell is coming from that area...or the AC hose that runs near the FRPP header on the right side, front.

 

I have to get in there and take a real close look at both.

 

 

Thanks for the help,

Phill

[MY2012GT500]

The "Base" GT500 has two black stripes on the knob that run through the position numbers.

 

The SVT PP shift knob is solid white (no stripes) with black numbers & letter ® on it.

 

I personally LIKE the double stripes on my OEM shift knob that match the double stripes on my seats and the double Over The Top/OTT stripes on the exterior.

 

 

Hope This Helps/HTH,

Phill

 

 

 

Aloha Phil,

Seems kind of backwards don't you think??? I pay extra for the performance package and I get a solid white ball, would have preferred one with red stripes to match the car and interior!!! Thanks for the info! Shootz!

[2010KonaBlueGT]

Aloha Phil,

Seems kind of backwards don't you think???

 

 

 

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I DO!

 

I thought the same thing when the SVT PP was announced. "Pay more, get less". HUH?

 

FWIW, I think you can get a ball like you describe from MGW. I got a White ball with blue stripes for my Kona Blue w/White GT500 (mirror of the car).

 

I can't remember if they have their rally balls in the right thread pitch & dia. (10mm) for the 2010+ or not though. I have a MGW shifter with all three shift levers, so all three TP's so I can run my OEM (white w/black stripes) knob, a 2009 or earlier knob, or the MGW rally shift knob.

 

 

Phill

[papashelby]

I occasionally get a "burning rubber" smell from my car when I get out of it at home.

It's ususally when I have the TC *OFF* (hold brake and TC button until dash says "Advance Track OFF")) but not necessarily spinning my tires (that I KNOW of).

 

I'm thinking it's either the SC belt or the tires are slightly spinning, without me knowing it and as I drive it, they're getting hot enough to smell.

 

I noticed it after coming back from Denver two times (about 90 miles total trip).

 

If it smells like Anti Freeze (pretty distinct, if you know the smell) you COULD have a very small leak/seep in your heater core. The core will make the AF evaporate (from the heat) and you'll smell anti freeze coming out of the vents. Keep a close eye on your engine coolant level!

 

 

Phill

 

 

Phill,

 

I also get that same "burning rubber smell" whenever I take the car out for a ride. I'm very gentle on my car and rarely really get on it. I talked to the service department at the dealer about it, and they said it probably is oil/paint burning off the engine. In my opinion though, it doesn't smell like oil or paint burning but rubber, or a belt slipping. So, I'm also thinking along the lines you are, that is, the SC belt looks like it may be the culprit. If you ever figure out what it is, I would like to know. I also have a 2010, but mine is completely stock mechanically, waiting for the warranty to run out before any major changes.

 

Rick

[Kontra06]

Here's my question...

 

Does anyone put the Cobra Snake decal on any of their other

vehicles such as the back window of our ever present F Series?

 

I'd like to put a small Cobra decal on the back window of my

wife's Escape and a bigger one on my F150.

 

Guidance please. Don't wanna have a faux pas, ya know?

 

Thank you!

[mudduc]

is the gt500 intended more for road racing or drag racing?

[goin2dirt]

How does everyone get the vital details on their car like what number it is? How many we're produced that year etc etc. I have the sticker that came on my car and the only thing I see is the production date.

 

Thanks

[dave110256]

I can't wait to take my 2012 out in the spring....I just completed the 750HP Supercharger upgrade and installed a 250 shot of nitrous. I'm expected a real "OH SHIT" moment, even without the nitrous. Hmmm, my profileshow me 18-21 age group and I'm 55....how did that happen?

Edited January 13, 2012 by dave110256

[Boidster]

How does everyone get the vital details on their car like what number it is? How many we're produced that year etc etc.

 

N00b here, but from browsing around this and other forums I have gathered that at some point after the end of production, Ford releases lists of what was produced by option type. One one of the forums I was looking over, there was one guy who sounded like he had access to Ford's detailed VIN list, as he was placing specific VINs at specific dealers, and knew exactly how many "White w/Grabber Blue + SVTPP +Nav" cars there were, for example.

 

No clue when the data is released, or who around here would have access to it. Maybe it's public, I dunno.

[jeredh]

is the gt500 intended more for road racing or drag racing?

 

 

Technically speaking i dont know the answer. What i can tell you is that i just started reading "The Cobra Story" and Carroll tells the story of his first few years of racing, which progressed from a tri-oval to ovals. Would he be more inspired to build a road racer? I shall keep reading =]

[fordcobra420]

When I drove my car off the showroom floor, I was going to leave them a little present.....black rubber, but WTF?? Car was a dog, did nothing. I was following the dealer to the gas pump, on them for my purchase, when I told him how disappointed I was, he laughed and said it has a breakin period. My son opened the manual, get 100 miles, get boost, get 1000 miles, hang on. Well, been hanging on ever since and nothing compares. Well, after 800hp SS upgrade, nothing compares!!!!

[Tire Smoke]

I bought my 2011 new and it now has 313.6 miles on it. The analyzer indicates that the remainig oil life is 51%. Does anyone know if these have a calendar or hours meter on them that would cause this issue?

[kgillespie06]

It monitors time and mileage.

[2010GT500UT]

I have a 2010 GT500 that I have supersnaked. I decided to keep all of my take off parts and wanted to know if there are any other vehicles that the factory supercharger will work on that was taken off of the GT500?

[Amigo GT500]

How do I do to post regular pictures (not a thumbnails)? Also I would like to know how can I include pictures in my signature? I have tried several ways with any positive results!!

 

Sorry for the ignorance...and thanks for your cooperation.

 

Jorge

[2010KonaBlueGT]

How do I do to post regular pictures (not a thumbnails)? Also I would like to know how can I include pictures in my signature? I have tried several ways with any positive results!!

Sorry for the ignorance...and thanks for your cooperation.

Jorge

 

 

The picture size depends on the resolution...if that's what it's called. A 420x680 will be much smaller than a 1080x1240, for instance (not sure if those are valid numbers, just used for example).

 

I also found that if you set your camera res too high, the pics will be too large (in file size) to post on TS so I had to just kind'a guess at a number and I take my pics at that res. I'll post a random pic I took with my digital cam (NOT with my cell phone) to give you a idea of what size I use. I can look on my camera to see what settings I have it set to, if that will help you. I'm also going to try a little experiment to see if I can post a pic after the text, before my sig and another after my sig....

 

 

EDIT: Hmm, it attached them both after my sig and it shows them in thumbnails but if you click on them, they enlarge to full size. Not sure how to post a pic that shows up in the body, full sized.

 

I'm all ears too.

 

 

Phill

Attached: Random pic

Edited February 27, 2012 by 2010KonaBlueGT

[2010KonaBlueGT]

I have a 2010 GT500 that I have supersnaked. I decided to keep all of my take off parts and wanted to know if there are any other vehicles that the factory supercharger will work on that was taken off of the GT500?

 

 

With the right intake manifold, it will fit on just about ANY engine you want it to fit on. Underhood & firewall clearence being the limiting factor.

 

The intake manifold acts like a "adaptor", if you will.

 

 

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

When I drove my car off the showroom floor, I was going to leave them a little present.....black rubber, but WTF?? Car was a dog, did nothing. I was following the dealer to the gas pump, on them for my purchase, when I told him how disappointed I was, he laughed and said it has a breakin period. My son opened the manual, get 100 miles, get boost, get 1000 miles, hang on. Well, been hanging on ever since and nothing compares. Well, after 800hp SS upgrade, nothing compares!!!!

 

 

On my 2010 I had to either drive 5 CONSECUTIVE miles (i.e. without shutting the engine off in those 5 miles) or 50 engine starts, which ever comes first. That keeps the test drivers from getting crazy with a boosted (full HP) engine.

 

When I test drove mine I opened it up on a Freeway onramp and gave the salesman a dirty look in the rearvies mirror. He told me they're limited until broke in. I'm a GM Tech and we have what's called a "E-Cell" in the PCM's that has to expire before the car goes into a *regular* cloosed-loop and I thought Ford had the same thing until I read the Owners Manual later.

 

It didn't matter, it's *just* over 5 miles from the dealer to my house and when I turned on the (wide/long) street entering my sub-division I wooded it and she lit up like a freakin' ROCKET (scared the SHIT outta my wife)!

 

 

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

I've only had mine for a week but the exhaust seems to be producing a more mellow, slightly deeper tone than when I drove out of the dealership.

 

 

There is no packing in a modern muffler like there was on a old glasspack/Cherrie Bomb so if the sound changes, it's not from the muffler changing.

 

It *might* be in your mind, it might be in your driving, it might be in the computer program...but it's *not* in the muffler. They are basically a hollow box with baffles inside to change the direction of the sound wave (and "dilute" it).

 

 

 

Phill

[2010KonaBlueGT]

......the manager told me any modification from the cat forward can potentially affect the warranty.

 

 

The key word there is, POTENTIALLY.

 

By law (see magnusum/moss federal warranty act) the burdon of proof is on the dealer to prove that any modification you made caused whatever problem you have with your vehicle under warranty.

 

"By law"...which they'll push because they know that *most* people won't spend the money on a lawyer to fight them. But you WILL win, if THEY can't prove your mod caused the failure. They're betting on the fact that it will cost you significantly more for a Attorney than the repair will cost you and I'm not sure if the M/M Act provides for Atty. fees to be recovered in the case of a successful litigation.

 

YOU can fight it without a Atty. but it will still cost you time/money.

 

Not all dealers are worms so don't let *one* throw you off and tell you it's not covered under warranty because you modified the car. Try another (reputable) dealer and let them know you're familiar with the Mag/Moss Fed. Warranty Act (and GET familiar with it, verbaige is on-line).

 

I was successful in a Breach of Contract litigation against a well known Motorcycle parts supplier and MC builder, doing it all on my own dime. My settlement included getting paid my costs too. Hard costs and potential costs.

 

Where there's a WILL, there's a way. I was stronger willed than he was.

 

And FWIW, it wasn't a large amount like some here have assumed but it MORE than covered my losses (hard & soft costs).

 

 

Phill

[Boidster]

How do I do to post regular pictures (not a thumbnails)?

 

There are three ways to get images into your post:

 

1) Link to an existing image on a website somewhere. To do this you just click the little picture icon up in the toolbar. On the second row of icons, it starts with (B)old, (I)talic, (U)nderline...and so on...the 11th icon is a little picture. Click that and enter the URL to the picture. Here's a picture from TopSpeed's website:

 

 

The URL for that image is http://pictures00.to...2_180x130w.jpg. You can get the URL for any image on the web by right-clicking on it and selecting either "Properties" (for Internet Explorer; you'll have to manually copy the Address from the pop-up window) or "Copy Image Location" (Firefox; this will put the URL into your Windows clipboard, ready to be pasted into the forum post).

 

2) Attach an image to your post. If you click "More Reply Options" down next to the "Post" button you will get a bigger editing area, with an "Attach Files" section down below. Click Choose Files... and you can select a file (or several - up to 1.17 megabytes) from your computer. Attached images will show up as "Thumnails" at the bottom of your post.

 

3) Attach an image as in #2, but also add it into the post. This is the same as #2, but after you attach your picture (but before you save your reply), click the "Add to Post" link next to it. That causes the picture to appear in-line with your text, just like a web-based image, except it will be small like a thumbnail, and clickable for zooming. For example, this image is one that I attached first, then clicked Add to Post:

 

 

Signature images: these seem to only allow web-based images. So you'd have to go find (or upload to a site like Flickr) an image you like, then use the little picture icon to add it into your signature.

 

Note - if you wish to be considerate of your fellow forum users, you should try to avoid linking to (or showing in-line, if an attachment) images that are larger than about 640x480. Most cell phones and digital cameras take pictures that are at least 1024x768, and most nowadays are much bigger. These images are huge when embedded in a forum post, and can cause the formatting of the forum thread to go wonky. They also can take a while to download for people on slower connections.

 

If you don't want to (or don't know how to) resize or crop the picture so it is smaller, it's best to just attach it and let it stay as a thumnail only. If people want to see the bigger image they can click on it. For large web-based images, it's best just to post the link to the image instead of embedding the image itself.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Boidster

[Amigo GT500]

There are three ways to get images into your post:

 

1) Link to an existing image on a website somewhere. To do this you just click the little picture icon up in the toolbar. On the second row of icons, it starts with (B)old, (I)talic, (U)nderline...and so on...the 11th icon is a little picture. Click that and enter the URL to the picture. Here's a picture from TopSpeed's website:

 

 

The URL for that image is http://pictures00.to...2_180x130w.jpg. You can get the URL for any image on the web by right-clicking on it and selecting either "Properties" (for Internet Explorer; you'll have to manually copy the Address from the pop-up window) or "Copy Image Location" (Firefox; this will put the URL into your Windows clipboard, ready to be pasted into the forum post).

 

2) Attach an image to your post. If you click "More Reply Options" down next to the "Post" button you will get a bigger editing area, with an "Attach Files" section down below. Click Choose Files... and you can select a file (or several - up to 1.17 megabytes) from your computer. Attached images will show up as "Thumnails" at the bottom of your post.

 

3) Attach an image as in #2, but also add it into the post. This is the same as #2, but after you attach your picture (but before you save your reply), click the "Add to Post" link next to it. That causes the picture to appear in-line with your text, just like a web-based image, except it will be small like a thumbnail, and clickable for zooming. For example, this image is one that I attached first, then clicked Add to Post:

 

 

Signature images: these seem to only allow web-based images. So you'd have to go find (or upload to a site like Flickr) an image you like, then use the little picture icon to add it into your signature.

 

Note - if you wish to be considerate of your fellow forum users, you should try to avoid linking to (or showing in-line, if an attachment) images that are larger than about 640x480. Most cell phones and digital cameras take pictures that are at least 1024x768, and most nowadays are much bigger. These images are huge when embedded in a forum post, and can cause the formatting of the forum thread to go wonky. They also can take a while to download for people on slower connections.

 

If you don't want to (or don't know how to) resize or crop the picture so it is smaller, it's best to just attach it and let it stay as a thumnail only. If people want to see the bigger image they can click on it. For large web-based images, it's best just to post the link to the image instead of embedding the image itself.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Nice explanation....thanks a lot!!

[Amigo GT500]

The picture size depends on the resolution...if that's what it's called. A 420x680 will be much smaller than a 1080x1240, for instance (not sure if those are valid numbers, just used for example).

 

I also found that if you set your camera res too high, the pics will be too large (in file size) to post on TS so I had to just kind'a guess at a number and I take my pics at that res. I'll post a random pic I took with my digital cam (NOT with my cell phone) to give you a idea of what size I use. I can look on my camera to see what settings I have it set to, if that will help you. I'm also going to try a little experiment to see if I can post a pic after the text, before my sig and another after my sig....

 

 

EDIT: Hmm, it attached them both after my sig and it shows them in thumbnails but if you click on them, they enlarge to full size. Not sure how to post a pic that shows up in the body, full sized.

 

I'm all ears too.

 

 

Phill

Attached: Random pic

 

 

Thanks mi amigo Phil....

[Boidster]

For what it's worth, I use a free program called IrfanView to do quick image edits. It does all the usual stuff - cropping, rotating, resizing - and it also supports batch edits so, for example, you can point it at a folder full of images and have it resize all of them down to 480x320 or whatever for posting into the forums. It will save copies of the originals, or move the resized images to a new folder, rename all of the resized ones to whatever you want, and so on. Great little utility.

 

http://www.irfanview.com

[sweenstang]

For what it's worth, I use a free program called IrfanView to do quick image edits. It does all the usual stuff - cropping, rotating, resizing - and it also supports batch edits so, for example, you can point it at a folder full of images and have it resize all of them down to 480x320 or whatever for posting into the forums. It will save copies of the originals, or move the resized images to a new folder, rename all of the resized ones to whatever you want, and so on. Great little utility.

 

http://www.irfanview.com

 

Boidster - The details of getting pics posted has been a mystery to me for months. I just recently figured out the signature pics (below), but the thumbnail option looks really handy for larger pics. Thanks for the great explanation. Looking forward to messing with more pics when I get a chance.

 

Sween

[Helix]

Alright, questions...

 

1) If I use an automatic transmission to have full access to my first and second gear (I.e shift 1st, to second, to D myself) will this impove my gas mileage or destroy my gears or anything?

 

2) If I want to start off in 2nd gear on an automatic transmission and I go, do I shift it back into D similar to manual by rev'ing the engine with the gas pedal, then at a proper speed hit the gas to over-rev (sort of) and take my foot off the gas, then shift into D and return the gas pedal downwards?

 

3) potentially what can be the effects of "flooring" the pedal?

 

4) Does starting your car in, let's say, 30 degree weather, and immedietly putting it in drive and proceeding into a long drive really strain your engine and cause piston grinding, combustion inefficiency, air filter clogs, and exhaust buildup within the tailpipe due to unburned gas?

 

5) How do you properly check trans fluid and power steering fluids (beyond the basic "yep, there it is..." ).

 

6) Is there an easier way to fight rust than the Rusty-butt treatment, and prefferably no sand blasting either?

 

7) Is rev'ing the engine in park harmful to the engine?

 

8) At what measurement of remaining brake pads is it time to say "time for new pads" before the brakes make grinding noises?

 

9) How can you measure the tread on the tire in a fraction form by eye-balling it?

 

 

 

Those are some of the random questions I'm dying for answers on. I'll be waiting, all help appriciated. ^_^

[sweenstang]

Naw, a slipping clutch also has a VERY distinctive odor. I know it well. This is definately "burning rubber" smell.

 

Brake pad smell is also distinct, very similar to clutch but *slightly* different.

 

Rear Gear lube is also distinct smelling and Anti Freeze too.

 

I was in the business most of my life and I'm pretty familiar with all the different smells (I always used "smell" as a diagnostic tool).

 

It *almost* has to be tires.....but there's so much other rubber on the car, I'm afraid of focusing on the tires and letting the...uhh (for instance), exhaust hangers burn up and catch on fire.

 

 

Thanks for the input,

Phill

 

Have you seen this video? Now here's a guy who has NO idea what a burning clutch smells like. I cringe when watching it.

 

[Boidster]

I'll take a shot!

 

Alright, questions...

 

1) If I use an automatic transmission to have full access to my first and second gear (I.e shift 1st, to second, to D myself) will this impove my gas mileage or destroy my gears or anything?

Probably not (mileage) and definitely not (destroying gears). Autos tend to be tuned for best efficiency given the throttle position. The usual reasons to manually shift an automatic are for better performance (not better mileage) or to avoid overdrive when it gets in the way (on hills, for example).

 

If you have a tunable car, you can adjust shift points in the computer as well as shift authority for better performance and mileage. I put a tune into my F-150 that made the shifts more aggressive (more of a solid shift, less of a slow easing into gear), and it gave me about 2 mpg (it also included timing and fuel changes).

 

2) If I want to start off in 2nd gear on an automatic transmission and I go, do I shift it back into D similar to manual by rev'ing the engine with the gas pedal, then at a proper speed hit the gas to over-rev (sort of) and take my foot off the gas, then shift into D and return the gas pedal downwards?

No. Just shift. The computer will handle the shift points, and the clutch is fluid-based so there's no issue with synchronizing gears with a throttle blip.

 

3) potentially what can be the effects of "flooring" the pedal?

With a properly working car, the only effect ought to be that you go faster. With a GT500, possibly the rear tires will spin. With a car that is out of tune or has other problems (for example, my GT500 when it had a bad fuel pump), you could get a stall, backfiring, knocking, sputtering, kicking, snorting, fire shooting out the tail pipe and/or intake - all sorts of fun things.

 

 

4) Does starting your car in, let's say, 30 degree weather, and immedietly putting it in drive and proceeding into a long drive really strain your engine and cause piston grinding, combustion inefficiency, air filter clogs, and exhaust buildup within the tailpipe due to unburned gas?

On a modern, properly working car, no. Modern cars don't really need a significant warm-up period. You probably don't want to do a bunch of WOT while the engine is cold, but otherwise you can start it up and pretty much drive away. If you're driving a naturally-aspirated car with a choke and old valves and piston rings and whatnot, it might not hurt to let it warm up for a couple of minutes.

 

If you're driving summer tires, like me, you'll also want to go easy in cold weather.

 

 

5) How do you properly check trans fluid and power steering fluids (beyond the basic "yep, there it is..." ).

Power steering is typically just, "yep, there it is...". There should be a reservoir probably right on top of the belt-driven pump, and it's got a little dipstick on it. Check it like you would your oil. Pro tip: if you notice smoke coming out of your '67 Mustang, followed by a complete loss of power steering, check the low-pressure hose - it's probably sitting on your new Tri-Y headers and has burned through, releasing all of the PS fluid onto the ground.

 

Transmission fluid (for automatics) should be checked using the procedure in the owner's manual. Usually this involves warming up to operating temperature, then parking on a level surface and moving the shifter into/out of Neutral and Drive. Fluid is typically checked with the engine running.

 

6) Is there an easier way to fight rust than the Rusty-butt treatment, and prefferably no sand blasting either?

I just recently had to replace the front and back bumper of my F-150 because both were rusted bad enough that paint was peeling off. As I understand it, the best way to combat body rust is to find and fix rock chips ASAP. My GT500 will shortly be getting a full clear bra, so that should keep rock chips at bay.

 

If you live in an area where they put salt on the road, you should get into a power wash booth as soon as you can after driving on salted roads and spray off the underside and wheel wells. You can spray the underside of the engine without causing problems; just don't direct a stream directly upwards through to the hood, so it splashes all over stuff you don't want getting soaked (coils, fuse box, air filter, etc.)

 

One area that I overlooked on my F-150, but I won't on the GT500 even though it will rarely ever see rainy weather, is the bottom of the doors. The F-150 has little drain holes at the bottom of the sheet metal, but they get clogged and salty road water can splash up in there (or trickle down past the window rubber) and eat the metal. My doors have rust growing in them, but thankfully it's still just surface rust. One guy I talked to about it said he uses compressed air to blow the drain holes out, then sprays a protecting oil up in there (something like CRC 656) to displace any water and keep out the rust.

 

7) Is rev'ing the engine in park harmful to the engine?

Not for an engine in proper condition, no. If the car has no rev limiter, be careful doing WOT in park or neutral. With no load, the engine can over-rev quickly.

 

8) At what measurement of remaining brake pads is it time to say "time for new pads" before the brakes make grinding noises?

Most brakes should have wear indicators or "squeakers" on them. They will rub against the rotor (not where the pad touches) and squeak, letting you know it's time. Otherwise, all pads I've seen are notched down the middle of the pad surface - when the two pad halves are worn down to the level of the notch, it's probably time to replace them.

 

9) How can you measure the tread on the tire in a fraction form by eye-balling it?

Edge of penny to top of Lincoln's head = 2/32"

Edge of quarter to top of Washington's head = 4/32"

Edge of penny to top of Lincoln Monument = 6/32"

 

 

Those are some of the random questions I'm dying for answers on. I'll be waiting, all help appriciated. ^_^

 

Edited March 1, 2012 by Boidster

[Helix]

Wow; thanks a ton. Those are some of the random questions that I can't quite research to well.

The only one of those I remember hearing was the "squeakers". I recall having been taught that before. Otherwise, all of those questions you pretty much just solved for me; I appreciate it a lot.

I'll be ready with this forum whenever I need to ask anything else.

[Boidster]

Picture of a typical break pad wear indicator (squeaker):

 

 

Also, I said this:

 

Otherwise, all pads I've seen are notched down the middle of the pad surface - when the two pad halves are worn down to the level of the notch, it's probably time to replace them.

 

After examining a couple of different brake pads, it seems that the depth of the "notch" (when it's even there) varies - some pads seem to have deep notches, others have notches that are only 1/2 the thickness of the pad, meaning you'd still have good life left in the pad even after the notch disappeared due to wear. I have lifetime warranty pads so I typically just replace them when the notch is worn away - well before the squeakers come into play. But my personal technique doesn't mean the notch is a reliable indicator of the pads' replacement time. You'll probably never go wrong if you replace them when the notch is worn down, but you might replace the pads sooner than strictly necessary and if you don't have lifetime replacement pads that costs extra $$$.

 

So in short, if you want to save money, replace them when the wear indicators start squeaking, or when they're down to a couple of mm thickness (more if you do a lot of heavy braking, as in racing). If you've got free replacement pads, replace them any time after the notch has worn down - typically the auto store won't gripe if they see they're worn that much.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Boidster