GM DIDN'T REALLY PAY US BACK

[BLOWN]

Who is GM( GOVERMENT MOTORS trying to fool us on those commercials that they say they payed back there bail out and did it in 5years..Read this.

 

http://newsmax.com/InsideCover/charles-grassley-gm-bailout/2010/04/23/id/356756?s=al&promo_code=9CE6-1

[David Hawkins]

Who is GM( GOVERMENT MOTORS trying to fool us on those commercials that they say they payed back there bail out and did it in 5years..Read this.

 

http://newsmax.com/InsideCover/charles-grassley-gm-bailout/2010/04/23/id/356756?s=al&promo_code=9CE6-1

 

 

Did in 5 Years......Hmm........must be talking about a Bail Out that they took 5 Years ago and NOT the one they took in '09.

[ilmor]

GM implied that they've paid back all the loans. In reality, all they did was shuffle money around. We taxpayers continue to keep them afloat.

[i8acobra]

Isn't there a "no politics" rule here?

 

If the Gov't buys a percentage of GM, does GM "owe" the Gov't money? No. Not any more than Sirius Satellite "owes" me for the stock I own. When GM does an IPO, the Gov't will sell their shares to investors... probably at a much higher price than they paid.

[stormeaston]

Well..........................this makes all the difference in the world! I'm going out tomorrow and buying a new GM car!!!

[Son of GT]

For those who may not have seen it yet...

 

 

What a crock.

[Boss Doctor]

The commercial says that they paid the money back 5 years ahead of schedule; not that they paid it in 5 years. it hasn't even been 5 years since they got the money. It's still a crock of crap.

[i8acobra]

I see a lot of "they lie" and "what a crock", but I don't see any reasoning behind these comments. Is this just Ford forum GM bashing or do you guys have any real info backing your claims? As I said, the Gov't owns a percentage of GM in exchange for the money given. The unsecured money, aka loan, has been paid back. Is anyone here refuting that?

[Son of GT]

I see a lot of "they lie" and "what a crock", but I don't see any reasoning behind these comments. Is this just Ford forum GM bashing or do you guys have any real info backing your claims? As I said, the Gov't owns a percentage of GM in exchange for the money given. The unsecured money, aka loan, has been paid back. Is anyone here refuting that?

 

 

 

Just Google "GM's early payback" or something with "GM payback" in it. You will get multiple hits from multiple sites and news sources supporting our negitive comments about GM's newest claim. And with respect to your question about a Ford forum just doing some GM bashing, the facts are the GM took billions of TARP funds and Ford did not. GM is floundering (badly) and Ford is on top. This commerical is just a BS PR campaign from GM's NEW ad agency that they just secured a few weeks ago after dropping their original ad agency that they had for decades.

 

As I recall from your introductory post a few weeks ago, you told us that owned and cared for several GM products (I recall one was a WS6 FB) for many years before you purchased your GT/CS, so perhaps your loyality to GM still runs deep in your veins and you feel offended by our remarks here because of that loyalty.

 

No problem with brand loyalty, as god knows we are all Ford loyalists here, but the facts are the facts about GM's bailout and for them to assert that they have paid off their TARP loans early when they really have not is just another insult against the American tax payer.

 

GM is running this ad because they damn well know that the American public resents them taking the bailout, and that resentment is translating into record poor sales as well as profit losses. Ed Whitacre even acknowledges that resentment in is opening dialog within the commercial.

[David Hawkins]

I see a lot of "they lie" and "what a crock", but I don't see any reasoning behind these comments. Is this just Ford forum GM bashing or do you guys have any real info backing your claims? As I said, the Gov't owns a percentage of GM in exchange for the money given. The unsecured money, aka loan, has been paid back. Is anyone here refuting that?

 

 

I think what is upsetting those (and ME) is how GM is leading you to believe that they have paid off the Loan when in fact they still owe at least 75% of what they barrowed.

[David Hawkins]

Here is another thought......................... By saying they "Paid Back the Loan", could this be a way for GM to pump up their Stock? If they are not selling Stock, could this be away for them to justify charging more for the New Stock they plan to Sell?

[i8acobra]

You guys are confusing the word "borrow" with "sold". They only borrowed $6.7B and yes, they have paid it back. The rest of the money purchased a 61% stake in the company. GM is under NO obligation to ever pay that money back. When the government sells it's share of the company to private investors (like you and me), they'll get their money back. That's how Wall Street works. I own shares in Sirius. If I want money, I sell my shares on the open market. I don't ask Sirius to pay me. In fact, the Treasury Dept. has already stated that after GM issues an IPO, they will begin slowly sells shares to re-coup the money and then some. They are going to "leak" shares so as not to flood the market and depress the price.

 

My loyalty is to the Gov't and not GM. I just hate seeing anyone (left or right) make ridiculous statements to make a point. I may have been incorrect to say these statements are coming out of loyalty to Ford. They're more likely due to the vast majority of Republicans here who were probably opposed to TARP from day 1. I'm definitely not a Republican (or a Dem, for that matter).

[sprint200]

At issue is GM's insinuation that the "LOAN" was paid back because GM is now selling cars and making money. Say what you will but that is the subliminal message they are trying to send to consumers who are too stupid to think for themselves.

 

The fact of the matter is that they paid back a tiny fraction of MY tax money by using MY tax money because they have gambled that they will save more on unpaid interst than they will lose on negative cash flow over the same period of time.

 

 

Still a LOSER in my books!

 

And my loyalties lie with the US Constitution, not with the current or previous administrations who foisted this upon us. Socialism sucks, therefore GM sucks!

[sportscars]

You guys are confusing the word "borrow" with "sold". They only borrowed $6.7B and yes, they have paid it back. The rest of the money purchased a 61% stake in the company. GM is under NO obligation to ever pay that money back.

 

I would argue that statement with you. While you are correct that there is no legal obligation, I believe they have a MORAL obligation to pay back the American people for saving their company from catostophic failure.

 

GM is in a bad situation here. They want to sell more cars so they can be profitable again. But much of the American public is unhappy about the bailout, not just because of GM, but also because of the banks and housing market. GM gets lumped in with Golman Sachs and AIG and Fannie May. They need to improve their image and leading people to believe good things about them (without out-right lying) is a great way to heal their public perception.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens.

[Stephen Takach]

GM posted a 4.3 Billion dollar loss from the time the Gov't took over the Co. 7/10/09 through 12/31/09. They are saying for the first quarter of 2010 that SALES are better then expected and if ALL goes well they could turn a profit in 2010.

 

My question is then..is......HOW DO YOU PAYBACK 5.8 BILLION DOLLARS WHEN YOU'RE NOT MAKING MONEY ???????? This is nothing more then Smoke and Mirrors or what GM calls Fresh Start Accounting.....Go Figure! (pardon the pun). This kind of accounting is what has got us into trouble with Social Security and Medicare. There is suppose to be almost 5 Trillion dollars in a SS Trust Fund. But guess what? The U.S. Treasury has Stolen .......I mean Borrowed the money and replaced it with an IOU. Don't forget the Federal Gov't has put up about 50 Billion for their stake in GM. Are they making a return on their.....I mean our money. The answer is NO because they are still in the RED.

 

Did they write a check to the U.S Treasury for 5.8 Billion and then reborrow? Maybe they just put an IOU in the Social Security Trust Fund. Let us not forget the millions of hard-working Americans who bought GM stock and GM bonds as an investment who in the end will not end up with 10 cents on the dollar. The Reason why?? Our Gov't just basically took what was left of the equity in GM and said to everyone else except the unions....... TOO BAD!!!!

If you're truly an American you'll sacrifice your investment for the "good of the people".

 

I don't think we're ever going to know what happened here but it is no more then SPIN. And man are they getting good at it.

 

Rant Over,

 

SVT

[sprint200]

This article from Forbes provides a little bit more insight to GM's motivations for "lying" about the "loan"

 

 

 

".........Sean McAlinden, chief economist at the Ann Arbor-based Center for Automotive Research, points out that the company has applied to the Department of Energy for $10 billion in low (5%) interest loan to retool its plants to meet the government's tougher new CAFÉ (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards. However, giving GM more taxpayer money on top of the existing bailout would have been a political disaster for the Obama administration and a PR debacle for the company. Paying back the small bailout loan makes the new--and bigger--DOE loan much more feasible.

 

In short, GM is using government money to pay back government money to get more government money. And at a 2% lower interest rate at that. This is a nifty scheme to refinance GM's government debt--not pay it back!........."

 

More from that article here: http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/general-motors-economy-bailout-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html

[cobrakalas427]

You guys are confusing the word "borrow" with "sold". They only borrowed $6.7B and yes, they have paid it back. The rest of the money purchased a 61% stake in the company. GM is under NO obligation to ever pay that money back. When the government sells it's share of the company to private investors (like you and me), they'll get their money back. That's how Wall Street works. I own shares in Sirius. If I want money, I sell my shares on the open market. I don't ask Sirius to pay me. In fact, the Treasury Dept. has already stated that after GM issues an IPO, they will begin slowly sells shares to re-coup the money and then some. They are going to "leak" shares so as not to flood the market and depress the price.

 

My loyalty is to the Gov't and not GM. I just hate seeing anyone (left or right) make ridiculous statements to make a point. I may have been incorrect to say these statements are coming out of loyalty to Ford. They're more likely due to the vast majority of Republicans here who were probably opposed to TARP from day 1. I'm definitely not a Republican (or a Dem, for that matter).

 

 

My loyalty is to this Country and the Constitution, NOT to the Government, either past, present or future! I have been around since JFK was the president and have witnessed both good and bad since then. There have been plenty of bonehead decisions made by both sides. The simple fact is that GM was kept afloat because of the taxpayers, whether it was via a loan or the government buying shares of stock, either way, I don't remember the AMERICAN PEOPLE being asked first nor given a choice to say NO! As far as I am concerned, the U.S. Constitution is the law of the land, not the elected officials who choose to manipulate it.

[David Hawkins]

You guys are confusing the word "borrow" with "sold". They only borrowed $6.7B and yes, they have paid it back. The rest of the money purchased a 61% stake in the company. GM is under NO obligation to ever pay that money back. When the government sells it's share of the company to private investors (like you and me), they'll get their money back. That's how Wall Street works. I own shares in Sirius. If I want money, I sell my shares on the open market. I don't ask Sirius to pay me. In fact, the Treasury Dept. has already stated that after GM issues an IPO, they will begin slowly sells shares to re-coup the money and then some. They are going to "leak" shares so as not to flood the market and depress the price.

 

My loyalty is to the Gov't and not GM. I just hate seeing anyone (left or right) make ridiculous statements to make a point. I may have been incorrect to say these statements are coming out of loyalty to Ford. They're more likely due to the vast majority of Republicans here who were probably opposed to TARP from day 1. I'm definitely not a Republican (or a Dem, for that matter).

 

 

OK.....what you say now makes sence to me. So NOW the Government can sell the Stock on the Stock Exchange for a Profit (hopefully) and that frees GM.... Thats cool BUT, will the Government use any Profits to pay down on the Dept?

[mywickedshelby]

This article from Forbes provides a little bit more insight to GM's motivations for "lying" about the "loan"

 

 

 

".........Sean McAlinden, chief economist at the Ann Arbor-based Center for Automotive Research, points out that the company has applied to the Department of Energy for $10 billion in low (5%) interest loan to retool its plants to meet the government's tougher new CAFÉ (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards. However, giving GM more taxpayer money on top of the existing bailout would have been a political disaster for the Obama administration and a PR debacle for the company. Paying back the small bailout loan makes the new--and bigger--DOE loan much more feasible.

 

In short, GM is using government money to pay back government money to get more government money. And at a 2% lower interest rate at that. This is a nifty scheme to refinance GM's government debt--not pay it back!........."

 

More from that article here: http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/general-motors-economy-bailout-opinions-columnists-shikha-dalmia.html

 

 

this is all you need to know........more BS.........from GM........what a surprise..........

 

thanks for posting sprint!

[JeffIsHereToo]

You guys are confusing the word "borrow" with "sold". They only borrowed $6.7B and yes, they have paid it back. The rest of the money purchased a 61% stake in the company. GM is under NO obligation to ever pay that money back. When the government sells it's share of the company to private investors (like you and me), they'll get their money back. That's how Wall Street works. I own shares in Sirius. If I want money, I sell my shares on the open market. I don't ask Sirius to pay me. In fact, the Treasury Dept. has already stated that after GM issues an IPO, they will begin slowly sells shares to re-coup the money and then some. They are going to "leak" shares so as not to flood the market and depress the price.

 

My loyalty is to the Gov't and not GM. I just hate seeing anyone (left or right) make ridiculous statements to make a point. I may have been incorrect to say these statements are coming out of loyalty to Ford. They're more likely due to the vast majority of Republicans here who were probably opposed to TARP from day 1. I'm definitely not a Republican (or a Dem, for that matter).

 

 

 

+1 Thanks for saving me the post!

 

Some people with an agenda are twisting aspects of this to once again suit their view. It's always been known that the US gave GM a combination of loans to be repaid and purchased stock in the company. The idea is that as GM's performance improves the US can sell the stock at a profit or GM can vote to buy it back. Again this has been well known since DAY ONE! It's only now that some are twisting the facts because the idea that GM could repay the loan option early doesn't fit with what they are trying to sell the American people.

 

All this said, I don't think they should have been given a dime.

[ilmor]

The latest on this subject...

 

http://www.autoracingdaily.com/news/industry-news/not-so-fast-gms-payback-claim-distorts-the-truth/

[BLOWN]

Thank you. And the truth shall set you free.

[i8acobra]

Gotta love how the writer of that story changes a word from Whitacre's quote to fit his angle...

 

GM CEO Ed Whitacre announced in a Wall Street Journal column last Wednesday that his company has paid back its government bailout loan “in full, with interest, years ahead of schedule.”

 

A couple of paragraphs later...

But when Whitacre says GM has paid back the bailout money in full, he means not the entire $49.5 billion—the loan and the equity. In fact, he avoids all mention of that figure in his column. He means only the $6.7 billion loan amount.

 

As you see, the writer starts with the correct quote and then changes it. Whitacre never said that GM had paid back the bailout "money" in full. He said the bailout "loan". As the writer himself points out, only $6.7B was a loan. You're right, the truth will set you free. You just need to hear the truth and not what some columnist with an agenda says is the truth.

[Stephen Takach]

You can't payback money you haven't made.......just smoke and mirrors.....what GM call Fresh Start Accouning.....lol

[i8acobra]

But they did make it. Money made through sale of stock, sale of ownership, interest, investments and sale of cars is all the same. When the Gov't bought the 61% stake, they did it by paying off creditors and with $13.4B in cash. That $13.4B belongs to GM. It's their money... just like the cash in your wallet is yours. If they chose to use that to pay off the loan, that's their prerogative. If you borrow $100 from me and then sell me a TV for $500. There's nothing wrong with you using $100 of the $500 I just gave you to pay me back. There's nothing wrong when two people do this, but as soon as the Gov't does it, everyone cries "foul".

[Stephen Takach]

But they did make it. Money made through sale of stock, sale of ownership, interest, investments and sale of cars is all the same. When the Gov't bought the 61% stake, they did it by paying off creditors and with $13.4B in cash. That $13.4B belongs to GM. It's their money... just like the cash in your wallet is yours. If they chose to use that to pay off the loan, that's their prerogative. If you borrow $100 from me and then sell me a TV for $500. There's nothing wrong with you using $100 of the $500 I just gave you to pay me back. There's nothing wrong when two people do this, but as soon as the Gov't does it, everyone cries "foul".

 

 

Good Grief Charlie Brown..... They did NOT make the money to pay back the loan. The article says that clearly. It is "smoke and mirrors".....taking from one pot to pay in another. The article even further states that they have applied for a 10billion low interest loan to retool their plants. So they paid back the 6B out of the $13.4 B slush fund only to apply for $10 billion more. NICE......GM calls if "Fresh Start Accounting". I call it spin. As I stated early in this thread through 12/31/09 GM LOST over 4 Billion dollars. You cannot pay back $6.7 B if you haven't made money. They HAVE NOT issued (sold) new stock yet to the public so the money did not come from stock sales. Our federal Gov't took the company over and is now in control of GM. You state that it is GMs money to do with as they want. ITs NOT THEIR MONEY.......Its MY money and YOUR money.........every TAXPAYER in the USA. And now for the sad part that everyone has forgotten. For YEARS hardworking Americans have bought the stock and bonds of GM. The bondholders should have some right to the equity; shareholders typically get zilch. But rather then follow normal bankrupcty law they got wrote out of the deal....that is everyone else but the unions. I've heard bondholders may get 10 cents on the dollar but I don't know what happened with that. The Gov't hopes in the future it will be able to take GM public again and regain the 48billion it used to purchase the equity. I for one will NEVER buy stock or bonds in a new GM. Our Gov't trashed the last shareholders and bondholders and I'm not willing to risk my hard-earned capital in that way.

 

I am in NO way against GM or the HARDWORKING men and women producing the cars and trucks. In fact I think we need GM, Ford and maybe even Chrysler. During WW II if it wasn't for these entities being in place we would have more than likely lost the war. What I am against is the way this takeover was done. They should have let GM file bankruptcy under normal terms, reorganize, and have private or Gov't money fund the rebirth. Thats what they did with Chrysler years ago....but thats not what happened this time. OUR Gov't is now the #1 equity owner in GM and is hoping to someday take it public again to recoup their/our investment. Here is another ironic thing to through into all of this. The money our Gov't paid to buy the equity in GM is BORROWED money.....its called DEFICIT SPENDING.

 

Its all unbelievable,

 

SVT