A Question to all my liberal Friends

[azmartin]

The desire to expand the ammount of land on which man and woman stood on,(possessed) began so long ago, that to go back through history, and determine who was 'there', or 'here' first would be a historical, issue, of, 'Biblitical' proportions. Literally.

 

Wars, where to the 'victor' went the , 'Land'.

or just out right purchases, marriages, messages from , 'God', that gave powerful people a reason to take, steal, confiscate the property and material goods, of people, states, country's nations, the 'right' to the land's of the World.

 

The 'illegal immigrants that come across our borders, do the jobs, that whites, have been told are beneath them.

 

Illegal immigrants do the jobs , that Blacks have been taught are, 'in kind' with , 'slavery, and so beneath them.

 

So, WHO, is going to pick the lettuce, the strawberries, and Tomato's, so that some BMW, ego inflated, 'Yuppie' or 'Tree Hugging Volvo driving, Leftie, can sit on their collective Butts, and eat their 'Tofu salads.

 

The Mexican People, are a great part of American History. The Spanish conquered the Aztec Empire in 1521, in fact Spain as of 1530, believed that it owned all Lands that touched the Pacific Ocean.

 

Including the Land owned by American Indians, including what is now, California, Arizonian, New Mexico, Texas, and parts of other a joining 'states,

 

and then 300 years latter, WE the United States took and Purchased it from the Mexicans (Spanish).

 

We need the Mexican People, we need to reform our immigration policies. We have far greater issues to deal with then punishing people who want and do work (which whites,blacks do not want to) and Mexicans, provide for much of the abundance of food and beauty we enjoy in the United States.

No where do I see anyone speaking that being Mexican People is being an Illegal. Anyone in this Country from anywhere else that isn't in our country legally is an illegal. My family is Part Mexican descent and they are not illegal nor do they support illegals. Please don't confused the issue with being Mexican People is being illegal. Past history does not correct the present. If you do some research you will find many illegal’s that are from near and far places besides Mexico. If we did not have the added expense or burden of illegal’s draining our system (education, border patrol, crime, drugs, food stamps, medical, abuse of the environment, etc.)we could all afford more of everything. In fact historically, we are about the only country that didn't make the conquered people assimilate into the American way of life or die such as in Europe or South America when referring to the past. The Spaniards were one of the worst. Convert or die.

Maybe I misinterpreted your reply, But I read it as all Mexican people are illegal’s. Being Illegal is against the law. So if you make an illegal legal, why not grant all criminals in this country amnesty?

Not angry just frustrated as I expierience this illegal issue firsthand everyday here in SouthEast AZ.

[RUFDRAFT]

A short while back, we had a murder here where I live. Unknown to most at the time, it was particularly grusome. A young lady had her throat cut to the point she was almost decapitated. In searching for a suspect, two local establishments were searched and thier employees questions. Most of the employees were illegal and, were being paid cash. They have arrsted a suspect. He too was illegal. He had gone to high school here, used our services for free and, now it appears he has killed. Please, tell me again why these people are allowed to stay here?

Sorry, Tim - I'm missing the connection between the murder and illegals. Plenty of US citizens commit murders. What's your point?

[19Maddog64]

Sorry, Tim - I'm missing the connection between the murder and illegals. Plenty of US citizens commit murders. What's your point?

 

That's simple. If the person who committed a violent murder was not supposed to be there it would not have occurred. Crimes are committed all the time by citizens and we have a means of dealing with it. It is called the LAW.

 

If the criminal were not here illegally that particular murder would not have occurred!

 

What part of that connection could possibly be missed?

[DDT]

I believe Tim's main point here is if our Government and Law Enforcement would obey the

existing Immigration Laws instead of turn their back on them. We would lower our Crime Rates,

Reduce Overcrowded Communities, Free Up Medical, School and Social Resources so our Average

Legal Citizens can enjoy a better quality of life that we deserve since we are paying for it............

[MikeCMM]

I believe Tim's main point here is if our Government and Law Enforcement would obey the

existing Immigration Laws instead of turn their back on them. We would lower our Crime Rates,

Reduce Overcrowded Communities, Free Up Medical, School and Social Resources so our Average

Legal Citizens can enjoy a better quality of life that we deserve since we are paying for it............

 

Very good, Dave! Precise and to the point. I couldn't have said it better.

[svttim]

I believe Tim's main point here is if our Government and Law Enforcement would obey the

existing Immigration Laws instead of turn their back on them. We would lower our Crime Rates,

Reduce Overcrowded Communities, Free Up Medical, School and Social Resources so our Average

Legal Citizens can enjoy a better quality of life that we deserve since we are paying for it............

 

 

Exactly, and please dont say these are jobs that Americans wont take, thats as much crap as the shoveling your talking about. Maybe all of our standards of life will increase including those legal immigrants that follow the rules. And as az has said, this is not a Mexican issue but an illegal alien issue.

[svttim]

The desire to expand the ammount of land on which man and woman stood on,(possessed) began so long ago, that to go back through history, and determine who was 'there', or 'here' first would be a historical, issue, of, 'Biblitical' proportions. Literally.

 

Wars, where to the 'victor' went the , 'Land'.

or just out right purchases, marriages, messages from , 'God', that gave powerful people a reason to take, steal, confiscate the property and material goods, of people, states, country's nations, the 'right' to the land's of the World.

 

The 'illegal immigrants that come across our borders, do the jobs, that whites, have been told are beneath them.

 

Illegal immigrants do the jobs , that Blacks have been taught are, 'in kind' with , 'slavery, and so beneath them.

 

So, WHO, is going to pick the lettuce, the strawberries, and Tomato's, so that some BMW, ego inflated, 'Yuppie' or 'Tree Hugging Volvo driving, Leftie, can sit on their collective Butts, and eat their 'Tofu salads.

 

The Mexican People, are a great part of American History. The Spanish conquered the Aztec Empire in 1521, in fact Spain as of 1530, believed that it owned all Lands that touched the Pacific Ocean.

 

Including the Land owned by American Indians, including what is now, California, Arizonian, New Mexico, Texas, and parts of other a joining 'states,

 

and then 300 years latter, WE the United States took and Purchased it from the Mexicans (Spanish).

 

We need the Mexican People, we need to reform our immigration policies. We have far greater issues to deal with then punishing people who want and do work (which whites,blacks do not want to) and Mexicans, provide for much of the abundance of food and beauty we enjoy in the United States.

 

 

No offence but this is a load of crap. We have laws. We should be enfocing the laws or change them, not ignore them.

[RUFDRAFT]

Sorry boys and girls. But murders will continue with or without illegals.

[DDT]

[svttim]

Sorry boys and girls. But murders will continue with or without illegals.

 

 

Not the point Ruff, This person lived here, leached off society and committed 2 crimes. And, he is not alone in this.

[DDT]

Bottom Line;

 

If we enforce Immigration Laws, will our Crime Rate be Reduced????????

[2007GT]

Too many have it too easy when they can say "I won't do that job because it is beneath me" or "I won't work 60 hours a week to meet my obligations". Are people that special? That elite? Maybe a higher species of human?

 

My neighbor was about to lose his house. I told him I could probably get him on where I was working insurance claims at $450.00 per day. The job was 7 days per week, 12 hours per day. I had been doing it for over a year with only Christmas day off. He asked over and over about the hours and the days worked as he could not believe we worked 7 days. He finally said he wasn't interested due to the hours. He sold his house to an "investor" and rents now. People are just lazy.

[DDT]

My neighbor was about to lose his house. I told him I could probably get him on where I was working insurance claims at $450.00 per day. The job was 7 days per week, 12 hours per day. I had been doing it for over a year with only Christmas day off. He asked over and over about the hours and the days worked as he could not believe we worked 7 days. He finally said he wasn't interested due to the hours. He sold his house to an "investor" and rents now. People are just lazy.

 

Wow!!!!!!!! That job must be fun or Life Sucks?????????

[2007GT]

Wow!!!!!!!! That job must be fun or Life Sucks?????????

 

No. The job sucked incredibly and was very stressful just like most adjuster positions. However, $450.00 per day is good money in Florida and I did it for almost three years.

[DDT]

No. The job sucked incredibly and was very stressful just like most adjuster positions. However, $450.00 per day is good money in Florida and I did it for almost three years.

 

Remember my friend.......You can't spend all that money if your dead?????????

[kaylan1521]

Exactly, and please dont say these are jobs that Americans wont take, thats as much crap as the shoveling your talking about. Maybe all of our standards of life will increase including those legal immigrants that follow the rules. And as az has said, this is not a Mexican issue but an illegal alien issue.

 

So much for being civil. Put your glasses back on and enjoy your delusions of grandeur. You didn't answer the question though. Would your kids do it? Whether an illegal does it or not shovelling sh!t still has to be done. I suppose you could introduce a SS's Union and pay someone $45-50 per hour to do it. It would be great and you could watch the rest of the economy turn into GM and Chrysler.

My neighbor was about to lose his house. I told him I could probably get him on where I was working insurance claims at $450.00 per day. The job was 7 days per week, 12 hours per day. I had been doing it for over a year with only Christmas day off. He asked over and over about the hours and the days worked as he could not believe we worked 7 days. He finally said he wasn't interested due to the hours. He sold his house to an "investor" and rents now. People are just lazy.

Hmmmm, where have I heard this before.

 

I love a good debate. unfortunately this isn't one.

[sprint200]

Bottom Line;

 

If we enforce Immigration Laws, will our Crime Rate be Reduced????????

Yeah I'm late to the party here, but I can't pass this one up.

 

DDT please explain to me how a society that claims to live by the "rule of law" can pick and choose which laws are worth obeying and which are not?

 

My wife is a naturalized citizen of this country. She did it the RIGHT WAY!!!!!! Had a legitimate visa, established residency, met all the requirements AND followed all of the LEGAL processes by which one becomes a citizen of this "ONCE GREAT" and now communist nation!

[svttim]

So much for being civil. Put your glasses back on and enjoy your delusions of grandeur. You didn't answer the question though. Would your kids do it? Whether an illegal does it or not shovelling sh!t still has to be done. I suppose you could introduce a SS's Union and pay someone $45-50 per hour to do it. It would be great and you could watch the rest of the economy turn into GM and Chrysler.

 

Hmmmm, where have I heard this before.

 

I love a good debate. unfortunately this isn't one.

 

Becasue the debate heads in a way you dont like, does not make it a bad debate. And sorry if I dont see the relavence of the delutions of grandure, Seems that, if there is no one to do a job, the free market will determine a pay rate. In fact, you actually turned the argument against yourself. One could see through your arguement that its ok to pay a pittance and take advantage of the desperate. Gee, you ever heard of a guest worker program, a legal one? Your argument that breaking laws to shovel sh1t is OK rings hollow

[sportscars]

Larry, so illegal muslim cab drivers are OK also - or is it just the "Mexicans" that are ok to be here without following the law. Very few of us are 100% Native American, so our families all imigrated here at some point. Most of them did it legally. Thats the point. If you want to come to the US and pick lettuce or shovel pig crap or paint my house or whatever else is "beneath" us that is GREAT! ALL are welcome here IF you do it legally. If they can't/won't follow the law for entering the country what makes you think they will follow any other laws?

 

Ruf, Yes murders will still happen, but SOME murders will be prevented. If it were your loved one who was murdered by an illegal then it would make a HUGE difference. They would still be alive if that person had been deported or stoped from entering in the first place. I dont believe we should think that because they dont kill as many people as legal citizens we should not care. I know that is not what you said, but it is the feeling I got from your post.

 

The United States is a melting pot. The Hispanic population is just as important as any other, but not more important. We are equal; Hispanics, African, Asian, European, Canadian (ok, maybe not Canadians ), etc.

 

We all need to obey the law. If you don't want to follow the law, move to Sudan or Darfur and let me know how that goes for 'ya.

[kaylan1521]

Becasue the debate heads in a way you dont like, does not make it a bad debate. And sorry if I dont see the relavence of the delutions of grandure, Seems that, if there is no one to do a job, the free market will determine a pay rate. In fact, you actually turned the argument against yourself. One could see through your arguement that its ok to pay a pittance and take advantage of the desperate. Gee, you ever heard of a guest worker program, a legal one? Your argument that breaking laws to shovel sh1t is OK rings hollow

In a way I don't like? Against myself..... Yeah, ok keep telling yourself that. Maybe you can convince yourself how right you are while you're at it.

 

Quite frankly I couldn't give a rats ass one way or another. All I'm trying to make you realize is that shutting down the borders or deporting every illegal is not necessarily the only way to go. Open your mind to the idea that for every badass illegal that makes it through there may be five honest hard working ones that would kiss the devils ass to stay in a country like the US or Canada. Have you seen how much it costs to emmigrate legally to North America? Thousands of dollars. Yet we're talking about people that live in houses made of tin panels. Ever had to deal with an immigration lawyer?!?!?!

 

Unfortunately once a few generations have passed people forget how difficult and take it for granted what it takes to get into North America. It could also take years and by then you and your family could starve to death. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

Despite all of your debating you still have not answered my question. Would your kids shovel sh!t for minimum wage?

 

Didn't think so

[DDT]

Yeah I'm late to the party here, but I can't pass this one up.

 

DDT please explain to me how a society that claims to live by the "rule of law" can pick and choose which laws are worth obeying and which are not?

 

My wife is a naturalized citizen of this country. She did it the RIGHT WAY!!!!!! Had a legitimate visa, established residency, met all the requirements AND followed all of the LEGAL processes by which one becomes a citizen of this "ONCE GREAT" and now communist nation!

 

And what are the most important Laws of this Country you would choose not to Enforce???????

 

If you really believe we are "COMMUNIST NATION" now, than "LEGALLY APPLY" for

Citizenship in a "FREE" Country so you will be "HAPPY" elsewhere and stop "WHINEING"......

[svttim]

In a way I don't like? Against myself..... Yeah, ok keep telling yourself that. Maybe you can convince yourself how right you are while you're at it.

 

Quite frankly I couldn't give a rats ass one way or another. All I'm trying to make you realize is that shutting down the borders or deporting every illegal is not necessarily the only way to go. Open your mind to the idea that for every badass illegal that makes it through there may be five honest hard working ones that would kiss the devils ass to stay in a country like the US or Canada. Have you seen how much it costs to emmigrate legally to North America? Thousands of dollars. Yet we're talking about people that live in houses made of tin panels. Ever had to deal with an immigration lawyer?!?!?!

 

Unfortunately once a few generations have passed people forget how difficult and take it for granted what it takes to get into North America. It could also take years and by then you and your family could starve to death. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

Despite all of your debating you still have not answered my question. Would your kids shovel sh!t for minimum wage?

 

Didn't think so

 

 

I think I gave alternatives to shutting down the border. And If I needed to to survive, I would do anything. Hw much does illegal immigration cost us? I can tell you, its a lot. I will say it again, dont like the law, change it. Who gets to choose what laws get enforced?

[kaylan1521]

I think I gave alternatives to shutting down the border. ^{And If I needed to to survive, I would do anything.}Hw much does illegal immigration cost us? I can tell you, its a lot. I will say it again, dont like the law, change it. Who gets to choose what laws get enforced?

Including crossing the border illegally and working for cash

 

check mate

[DDT]

Including crossing the border illegally and working for cash

 

check mate

 

Which comes back around to Buisiness Exploiting Cheap Labor?????????

[sportscars]

Including crossing the border LEGALLY and working for cash! "Coyotes" charge thousands of dollars to get these people across the border. You can do it legally for about the same price.

 

[DDT]

Read between the line.........I agree but these people are scared and believe

the crap they are told............

[DubbsFaris]

Yo también estoy deacuerdo con ustedes, creo que todos tenemos el derecho de poder construirnos un mundo mejor, pero lamentablemente existen personas las cuales con sus malas acciones perjudican al resto, haciendo asi que cada ves sea mas dificil la busqueda de un mejor futuro. Bueno pero en fin, como dicen cada pais tiene sus reglas y lo unico que les importa es poder proteger su patria que en realidad es de todos por que asi Dios la creo y el hombre la dividio...

 

wait...what are we talking about?

[texaggie]

I too totally agree with all your views but here's another thought to consider.

 

How many people are willing to do the jobs these people do for what they get paid? This too is part of the problem.

To pay "proper" wages the cost of the products will now increase. Similar to the Wal Mart debate where everyone bitches about how little employees get paid yet whenever a consumer needs a product cheap that's where they go shopping.

 

Once again, you are all absolutely right about the illegals and particularily criminals but I'm just trying to play devils advocate here.

 

Easy answer is ...

We let people over legally all the time. Is it easy? NO. Should it be easy? NO. If they want to work here great! Just come in legally.

 

As an aside... On the local news tonight was an issue in illegal immigrants. It was about how they are just now going through finger print records for people already inside US prisons. So far they have found 200,000 people that are not legally in hte country inside across the country, and they are just getting ready to go through the Texas system. Imagine how high the number will grow after that.

 

An extra aside... I am American with my family being of Spanish and Mexican origin. My Grandfathers and all of my great uncles fought for this country in WW II on both the Pacific and European fronts. All of them were born in Texas.

[2007GT]

Remember my friend.......You can't spend all that money if your dead?????????

 

Wife spent all of it and then some.

[svttim]

Including crossing the border illegally and working for cash

 

check mate

 

 

Yes, including that. Go back and re-read the first post. This is not aimed at those who would try to make a living but, the politicians that dont have the intestinal fortitude to enforce the law. Wher edid you go wrong??