Ex-Police Chief of Police in Seattle...

[Boss Doctor]

From the American Council on Drug Education.

 

I would suspect that a study from Columbia University would be accepted. Now who previously stated that the gateway issue had been disproven?

Teens and Marijuana...

See the last two posts.

[Boss Doctor]

Cannabis use and other illicit drug use: testing the cannabis gateway hypothesis.

 

RESEARCH REPORT

Findings: The frequency of cannabis use was associated significantly with the use of other illicit drugs, other illicit drug abuse/dependence and the use of a diversity of other drugs. This association was found to be particularly strong during adolescence but declined rapidly as age increased. Statistical control for confounding by both fixed and time dynamic factors using random- and fixed-effects regression models reduced the strength of association between frequency of cannabis use and other illicit drug use, but a strong association between frequency of cannabis use and other illicit drug use remained even after control for non-observed and time-dynamic sources of confounding

 

Conclusions: Regular or heavy cannabis use was associated with an increased risk of using other illicit drugs, abusing or becoming dependent upon other illicit drugs, and using a wider variety of other illicit drugs. The risks of use, abuse/dependence, and use of a diversity of other drugs declined with increasing age. The findings may support a general causal model such as the cannabis gateway hypothesis, but the actual causal mechanisms underlying such a gateway, and the extent to which these causal mechanisms are direct or indirect, remain unclear.

Doesn't support your position does it?

[switz]

Of course the odds are anyone who is willing to try marijuana is probably more willing to try other drugs as opposed to someone who doesn't use drugs at all. That in and of itself doesn't mean that marijuana is the cause. More enforcement? give me a break. More money has been thrown at this problem than any other that I have ever seen in my experience than any other vice. Just look at the prisons. They are full of users and dealers. Our Federal gov. throws money around like popcorn and, when one gets arrested there are ten more to take his place. Why? Profit. Take the money out of the equation and you remove motive.

[Boss Doctor]

So much for debunking the gateway theory. Now I realize there are other studies that will not concur. Oft times these studies are subsidized by groups such as NORML that wish to legalize marijuan. Just like NORML and High Times and others stated D.A.R.E does not work.

 

In addition to the above cited studies I will offer 36 years of working with addicts and drugs. I offer the above cited studies and probably far more experience, both practical and anecdotal, than most on this site. I have seen it personally for almost 4 decades now.

 

And again I stated heroin was not viewed as an issue as long as it stayed in the black community. That was the theory of the mafia in the 50's forward. But guess what. Yea, it got out. Now we have an epidemec of heroin in the US. And the violence between cartels in both the US and Mexico tell us we had better do something. Phoenix is now the kidnapping capital of the US. Major cartels are targetting cities of all sizes in the US. MS 13 and other violent gangs have spread throughout the US and it is all because of drugs. And too many lives are lost to addiction. When someone uses drugs they are assisting terrorists and organized crime financially. When they use drugs they hurt not only themselves but their families. And they may doom their future generations to a life of drug dependency.

 

I agree we desperately need more than just enforcement. Enforcement at this time serves to drive the price up even more. But if it was legalized, including all drugs, think how cheap and appealing drugs would be. We need vast improvements in drug education and treatment. Dealers need to be dealt with severely. They profit at the expense of other people's lives.

 

Somewhere early on I stated the police chief quoted is an idiot. Chances are he has had little exposure to the streets and drug issues and remained insulated in the ivory palace.

And The Partnership for a Drug Free America and other sources that you cite do NOT have agenda? Please!

 

Not De-bunked? It was rather easy for me to punch holes in what you provided. I have also repeatedly asked you to give me a scientific example of how your approach works, and with many decades of its implementation it should be incredibly easy for you to do so.

 

Although I applaud you for your experience - and in no way is this intended as an attack on such - unless it consists of 36 years of scientific research it is anecdotal. The number one rule for a scientist is to have an open mind. Many times a scientist will fail with that simple point because they are still human beings with feelings and experiences getting in the way. Although it's ok to anticipate an outcome, it is not ok to skew data, (whether consciously or unconsciously), to jive with personal feelings, experiences, or to please whomever is funding the study.

 

The fact remains that the current and past policies have not worked, and to continue on doing the same thing is insane.

[SGT/SC#0471]

Thanks guys...these are interesting posts....

 

Reading these I think that the last three (including current) Presidents were pot smokers at some point...so...

[DubbsFaris]

Thanks guys...these are interesting posts....

 

Reading these I think that the last three (including current) Presidents were pot smokers at some point...so...

 

 

 

Yeah, but one didnt inhale and two didnt exhale!

[69dejavue]

And The Partnership for a Drug Free America and other sources that you cite do NOT have agenda? Please!

 

Not De-bunked? It was rather easy for me to punch holes in what you provided. I have also repeatedly asked you to give me a scientific example of how your approach works, and with many decades of its implementation it should be incredibly easy for you to do so.

 

Although I applaud you for your experience - and in no way is this intended as an attack on such - unless it consists of 36 years of scientific research it is anecdotal. The number one rule for a scientist is to have an open mind. Many times a scientist will fail with that simple point because they are still human beings with feelings and experiences getting in the way. Although it's ok to anticipate an outcome, it is not ok to skew data, (whether consciously or unconsciously), to jive with personal feelings, experiences, or to please whomever is funding the study.

 

The fact remains that the current and past policies have not worked, and to continue on doing the same thing is insane.

 

Doc, there will probably never be a scientific conclusion to end all discussion. As you know too many enter into a study intent on proving their beliefs. But there were tests that even included twins. As far as milk causing addiction then ice cream must also cause violent crime because sales of ice cream increase in the summer months as does violent crime. See my point? The proof is in talking to the addicts and they tell you they started with marijuana. The vast majority do. They are then part of a drug culture and surrounded by others that use drugs. As you probably remember from high school and college the druggies and the squares did not hang together. So the druggies experiement more and the straights usually continue on their way also. But for those that have gone on to heroin, meth, crack, powder, etc they usually started with marijuana. You certainly have not disproven that. I am not saying that marijuana causes a person to go on to harder drugs. But those that use the harder drugs started with marijuana (or alcohol, and or pharmaceuticals). You will not be able to disprove that.

 

YOu asked for me to supply data on how my approach works. I do not know what you are referring to as my approach. What I am saying is we have to do something as we have done next to nothing for decades. We need a multi-faceted approach of enforcement, education and treatment. One without the other two is worthless. If someone has a better idea then bring it forth for discussion but time is of the essence. Sometimes you do not have to have a scientific plan before taking action. At least in part because humans are not predictable due to individuality. They are not machines. And environments are different. So you take a common sense approach and run with it and tweek it as you go. No one has all the answers but to sit by and wait for a study that will never be proven is useless. Again, time is of the essence as we are losing lives everyday.

[Boss Doctor]

69Dejavue:

 

I addressed the point of the twins in an earlier post. In many ways I concur, but come to a different conclusion. I define a gateway as something that is an integrated opening to, (in this case), a path. You cannot cross a bridge without passing its gateway. The premise of marijuana being a gateway drug is to say that smoking marijuana is the beginning of drug use that leads to harder drug usage. That is to assert that someone will not use harder drugs if there were no such thing as marijuana to begin with, and no one can reasonably believe that is accurate. If there was no marijuana teens, (or adults), would still turn to other things upon which to get high. Was not crack developed, (in the marketing sense), specifically for its rapidly addictive qualities? Aren’t there many cases of crack being given to children in order to get them addicted before they ever saw marijuana?

 

What your experience and the reports that you cite support is a commonality rather than a cause. It supports no other conclusion. One would be more successful at arguing that peer pressure is the gateway to drug abuse. So how do we legislate against that?

 

You have indicated that your approach is to maintain its illegal status and enforce the laws. I am unaware as to their extent, but we do fund education and treatment initiatives. We have been doing that for decades without success, and it is that "proof" to which I was asking you to supply. Government cannot successfully legislate values upon its people and in particular its children. Murder has always been illegal, (that is a consistant position), yet people do it every day. Tobacco and alcohol kill far more people than marijuana does each year. To make alcohol and tobacco legal for adult usage while making marijuana illegal is just simply ridiculous hypocrisy that is inconsistant. In no way is this consistent as is the stance on murder.

 

I tried marijuana at the age of 13 due to peer pressure, and it had absolutely no affect on me: however, if I were to suffer the effects of chemotherapy, I certainly would try it again regardless of its legality.

[69dejavue]

69Dejavue:

 

I addressed the point of the twins in an earlier post. In many ways I concur, but come to a different conclusion. I define a gateway as something that is an integrated opening to, (in this case), a path. You cannot cross a bridge without passing its gateway. The premise of marijuana being a gateway drug is to say that smoking marijuana is the beginning of drug use that leads to harder drug usage. That is to assert that someone will not use harder drugs if there were no such thing as marijuana to begin with, and no one can reasonably believe that is accurate. If there was no marijuana teens, (or adults), would still turn to other things upon which to get high. Was not crack developed, (in the marketing sense), specifically for its rapidly addictive qualities? Aren’t there many cases of crack being given to children in order to get them addicted before they ever saw marijuana?

 

What your experience and the reports that you cite support is a commonality rather than a cause. It supports no other conclusion. One would be more successful at arguing that peer pressure is the gateway to drug abuse. So how do we legislate against that?

 

You have indicated that your approach is to maintain its illegal status and enforce the laws. I am unaware as to their extent, but we do fund education and treatment initiatives. We have been doing that for decades without success, and it is that "proof" to which I was asking you to supply. Government cannot successfully legislate values upon its people and in particular its children. Murder has always been illegal, (that is a consistant position), yet people do it every day. Tobacco and alcohol kill far more people than marijuana does each year. To make alcohol and tobacco legal for adult usage while making marijuana illegal is just simply ridiculous hypocrisy that is inconsistant. In no way is this consistent as is the stance on murder.

 

I tried marijuana at the age of 13 due to peer pressure, and it had absolutely no affect on me: however, if I were to suffer the effects of chemotherapy, I certainly would try it again regardless of its legality.

 

 

Doc, there is very, very little treatment for the average person, especially a J. Unless you have health care insurance chances are you will not receive in-patient drug treatment.

 

Yes it is a commonality. It may also be causal but not proven. What is proven is that junkies start with marijuana, usually, before going on to harder drugs. Nobody wants to grow up to be an addict. Kids know that snorting and main lining is dangerous and stupid and addictive. But hey, its only marijuana. So they start with marijuana (and alcohol, and pharmaceuticals). After awhile they want a better high so they try something else within their circle of friends. I knew a girl that was a heroin addict that told me she could not even stick the spike (needle) in her arm. She could not look at it. Her boyfriend had to tie her off and stick her because she couldn't do it. After a couple of weeks she had to learn to do it herself or else.

 

Crack was not invented to be more addictive but to give a better high. Crack is basically cocaine concentrate. And yes it is very, very addictive. Julia says one time with her crack and you're hooked. With the increased addiction dealers were able to sell more and make more profit. That is why there are federal laws that treat crack differently than powdered cocaine. But democrats don't like those laws because they primarily effect minorities. Whites were more likely to snort while blacks were smoking crack. So the law's penalties were deemed racist.

 

You never heard me say make legal or promote cigarettes or alcohol. All are addictive and destructive. Now where does the government enter? A libertarian will say make everything legal and let people decide the course of their life. The liberal will just blame George W. I remember when the democrats tried to say that the Crack cocaine explosion was instituted by the CIA to keep the black man down. Conservatives would say make it illegal so no one is hurt and so monies do not go to dealers and terrorists. Remember that it is not just the user that is effected. The junkies steal so much that prices in every store are higher, you pay for jail cells, higher insurance, the criminal justice system (legal aid, jails, etc) welfare, dependent children, hospitals, etc.

[Boss Doctor]

Doc, there is very, very little treatment for the average person, especially a J. Unless you have health care insurance chances are you will not receive in-patient drug treatment. See, I thought there were many but not utilized. I did say that I'm not up to speed on such programs. But I also said that the amount of money that we waste in futile efforts should be diverted here.

 

Yes it is a commonality. It may also be causal but not proven. Agreed What is proven is that junkies start with marijuana, usually, There ya go! before going on to harder drugs. Nobody wants to grow up to be an addict. Agreed Kids know that snorting and main lining is dangerous and stupid and addictive. But they do it anyways due mostly on the part of peer pressure But hey, its only marijuana. So they start with marijuana (and alcohol, and pharmaceuticals). And household chemicals After awhile they want a better high so they try something else within their circle of friends. I knew a girl that was a heroin addict that told me she could not even stick the spike (needle) in her arm. She could not look at it. Her boyfriend had to tie her off and stick her because she couldn't do it. There's the one that should have been hung up by his thumbs and castrated After a couple of weeks she had to learn to do it herself or else.

 

Crack was not invented to be more addictive I didn't say invented; I said developed in the marketing sense but to give a better high. Crack is basically cocaine concentrate. I knew that And yes it is very, very addictive. Julia says one time with her crack and you're hooked. You talked to my daughter? With the increased addiction dealers were able to sell more and make more profit. That is why there are federal laws that treat crack differently than powdered cocaine. But democrats don't like those laws because they primarily effect minorities. Whites were more likely to snort while blacks were smoking crack. So the law's penalties were deemed racist.

 

You never heard me say make legal or promote cigarettes or alcohol. You expressed not the same anger towards alcohol and tobacco: therefore, it led me to conclude that you have no problems with it All are addictive and destructive. Now where does the government enter? A libertarian will say make everything legal and let people decide the course of their life. The liberal will just blame George W. Laughed my ass off at that one! I remember when the democrats tried to say that the Crack cocaine explosion was instituted by the CIA to keep the black man down. Conservatives would say make it illegal so no one is hurt and so monies do not go to dealers and terrorists. Remember that it is not just the user that is effected. The junkies steal so much that prices in every store are higher, you pay for jail cells, higher insurance, the criminal justice system (legal aid, jails, etc) welfare, dependent children, hospitals, etc.

 

IMHO, the problem is that making something illegal that many, (if not the majority), think is no more harmful than alcohol or tobacco is not good practice. We dump billions annually into law enforcement efforts that have gotten us absolutely nowhere in many decades, and that money could be better spent towards prevention and treatment efforts. Our current practice has given rise to the violent gangs because we learned absolutely nothing from the history of prohibition.

 

I also believe that people should be held accountable for their our own actions. I have no sympathy for people who make an informed decision to participate in a dangerous practice and then whine because it bit them in the ass. Children, on the other hand, should be the focus of prevention efforts, and said efforts should target how to avoid peer pressure as to when it is obviously to the detriment of the child. We live in a society where parents are absent out of necessity, (both having to work to survive), and that just leaves more opportunity for the child to fail.

[69dejavue]

IMHO, the problem is that making something illegal that many, (if not the majority), think is no more harmful than alcohol or tobacco is not good practice. We dump billions annually into law enforcement efforts that have gotten us absolutely nowhere in many decades, and that money could be better spent towards prevention and treatment efforts. Our current practice has given rise to the violent gangs because we learned absolutely nothing from the history of prohibition.

 

I also believe that people should be held accountable for their our own actions. I have no sympathy for people who make an informed decision to participate in a dangerous practice and then whine because it bit them in the ass. Children, on the other hand, should be the focus of prevention efforts, and said efforts should target how to avoid peer pressure as to when it is obviously to the detriment of the child. We live in a society where parents are absent out of necessity, (both having to work to survive), and that just leaves more opportunity for the child to fail.

 

Doc, I have more sympathy for the lower socio econmic persons that use drugs than the middle class and upper class. I have very little sympathy for the upper class. The poor are trapped. They live in poverty and see no escape and give up. Not all, but many. Plus they are surrounded by other junkies and drugs and nothing is done so they see it as a normal way of life.

 

We can stop the majority of drugs that come in this country with technology, and most importantly, committment. But we need to attack the problem at its root. Destroy the demand for the drug and it will be a non-issue. Hence, education and rehab.

[Boss Doctor]

Doc, I have more sympathy for the lower socio econmic persons that use drugs than the middle class and upper class. I have very little sympathy for the upper class. The poor are trapped. They live in poverty and see no escape and give up. Not all, but many. Plus they are surrounded by other junkies and drugs and nothing is done so they see it as a normal way of life.

 

We can stop the majority of drugs that come in this country with technology, and most importantly, committment. But we need to attack the problem at its root. Destroy the demand for the drug and it will be a non-issue. Hence, education and rehab.

 

I came from a poor - although white - family in Kansas City that struggled to survive and advance themselves. My mother was the first white person to volunteer her time at the NAACP chapter in Kansas City during the 50-60's. I spent my early years, (until 7 years old), around "The Projects." My father did not have his race as either a real or imagined impediment to his success, but he did struggle to retire as a executive of an insurance company. I share this because I knew what challenges you talk about, and I don't view this as an excuse. True, times are different no days, but we form our opinions based on our experiences.

 

I see the latter as an arguement for hard drugs and our youth, but the fact remains marijuana is no more harmful than many legal substances. Either outlaw it all or make it consistant.

[69dejavue]

I came from a poor - although white - family in Kansas City that struggled to survive and advance themselves. My mother was the first white person to volunteer her time at the NAACP chapter in Kansas City during the 50-60's. I spent my early years, (until 7 years old), around "The Projects." My father did not have his race as either a real or imagined impediment to his success, but he did struggle to retire as a executive of an insurance company. I share this because I knew what challenges you talk about, and I don't view this as an excuse. True, times are different no days, but we form our opinions based on our experiences.

 

I see the latter as an arguement for hard drugs and our youth, but the fact remains marijuana is no more harmful than many legal substances. Either outlaw it all or make it consistant.

 

Doc, while you are to be commended for your hard work and achievements you are the exception rather than the rule. Most of the people in the projects are probably still there, or in jail, or dead. If you want to allow cigarettes, alcohol, and all drugs......I'll drink to that!