69dejavue Posted April 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Socialism is the effect of Capitalism gone too far??????????????? No quite the contrary. Socialism is just communism with a post graduate degree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Because Capitalism went waaaaaaay toooooo faaaaaar and created this unpresidented crisis?????? Sorry, your too intelligent to believe that this was the only casue of the current crisis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted April 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Sorry, I just don't agree with your premise, I just think it's far far too simplistic, and worse the stretching these into an area where there is I just don't see any direct causal relationship nor any similarities, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree! I think our current economic situation is far too complex and a web of junk to the extreme such that there is no simple answer or magic bullet. At least I know I don't know what to do anyway! There are people a lot smarter than me on both sides of every issue that can't agree, and we had a people a lot smarter than I at the helm of these departments and companies all these years, and we still ended up where we are. So...I'll just try to stay informed and hope it all works out in the end! Jeff, the premise is the government has been trying to help the poor. We have welfare, food stamps, WIC programs, head start, montessori, and a host of other programs. Do you disagree that these programs were formed with the intent to help the poor? That is the premise. The result is the poor are no better off today than before and the government has done a lousy job of social engineering. I would think you would have to agree on both counts. May I correctly assume you have very little exposure to the lower socio economic life styles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDT Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Sorry, your too intelligent to believe that this was the only casue of the current crisis Thank's for the compliment Tim and you are correct.........Two sides to every coin........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Jeff, the premise is the government has been trying to help the poor. We have welfare, food stamps, WIC programs, head start, montessori, and a host of other programs. Do you disagree that these programs were formed with the intent to help the poor? That is the premise. The result is the poor are no better off today than before and the government has done a lousy job of social engineering. I would think you would have to agree on both counts. May I correctly assume you have very little exposure to the lower socio economic life styles? Yes these programs were put in place to help the poor but your conclusion requires an assumption that these were the only issues causing their condition and that's not the case. Welfare - is a term not a program. What we call welfare is a combination of programs to help those that need assistance Food Stamps - Helps to put food on the table TODAY the program isn't meant to lift them from poverty only help them feed their family WIC - Is similar to Food Stamps but limited to women and children again not meant to lift them out of poverty Head Start - has shown to be a great success so I'm not sure what your issue is with it Montessori - is not a government program it's a internationally used early education methodology out of Italy As for the poverty rate...well here is a graph of it since 1959 from HHS ...hummmm care to map what party most often held the Presidency then it went down and which held it when it went up? oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svttim Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Looks pretty even to me Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Looks pretty even to me Jeff Other than Clintons first term Democratic periods are declining or stable while Republican periods, other than early Bush 1 (later Bush 1 the increase started), are increasing, with the largest increases are during the Reagan and Bush 2 administrations. Now having said this...I don't think you can draw any conclusions from one chart and my only intent was to show how simplistic views of complex matters really means about as much as that graph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69dejavue Posted April 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Yes these programs were put in place to help the poor but your conclusion requires an assumption that these were the only issues causing their condition and that's not the case. Welfare - is a term not a program. What we call welfare is a combination of programs to help those that need assistance Food Stamps - Helps to put food on the table TODAY the program isn't meant to lift them from poverty only help them feed their family WIC - Is similar to Food Stamps but limited to women and children again not meant to lift them out of poverty Head Start - has shown to be a great success so I'm not sure what your issue is with it Montessori - is not a government program it's a internationally used early education methodology out of Italy As for the poverty rate...well here is a graph of it since 1959 from HHS ...hummmm care to map what party most often held the Presidency then it went down and which held it when it went up? oops! OK Jeff, one more time. I will type this very slow so you can read. Welfare is a term for a collection of programs. Yes the programs were put in place to help the poor. My conclusion is that the government has been in charge of the lives they have been trying to help. The government controls their finances, their food consumption, their healthcare, their education, their places of domicile, etc. Their entire lives are managed by the government. Yes there are other issues which contribute. But the government has taken responsibility for different classes and has failed miserably. And you continue to avoid the question. I assume you have very, very little exposure to the lower socio economic environments in our country. Maybe after you have 35 plus years of working with the poor you would have more credibility. For now your exposure to this issue is based on google and democratic talking points. It is a lot different in the real world. Come on in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 OK Jeff, one more time. I will type this very slow so you can read. Welfare is a term for a collection of programs. Yes the programs were put in place to help the poor. My conclusion is that the government has been in charge of the lives they have been trying to help. The government controls their finances, their food consumption, their healthcare, their education, their places of domicile, etc. Their entire lives are managed by the government. Yes there are other issues which contribute. But the government has taken responsibility for different classes and has failed miserably. And you continue to avoid the question. I assume you have very, very little exposure to the lower socio economic environments in our country. Maybe after you have 35 plus years of working with the poor you would have more credibility. For now your exposure to this issue is based on google and democratic talking points. It is a lot different in the real world. Come on in! Rinse and repeat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDT Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 No quite the contrary. That's a "DOUBLE NEGATIVE"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You Loose............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipBeck Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Jefferson is one of my hobbies and personal heros and he NEVER said this! Jeff, Most fans of Thomas Jefferson don't disagree with so many of his fundamental views. Even the most casual reader of materials associated with Thomas Jefferson will come across that quote countless times. Yeah, you will also come across a few postings that dispute this Jefferson quote as they cannot find it in a limited number of source materials they have researched. You'd be hard pressed to dispute that Jefferson had a deep distrust of pure democracy which is indeed mob rule and instead he advocated a republic defined as the rule of law assuring the rights of the minority. How about this quote, "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Would you like to dispute that one as well? I should never post in political threads as no minds are ever changed and needless animosity often develops. I'm going back to the Shelby GT section to escape the political madness of today. All the best. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 I should never post in political threads as no minds are ever changed and needless animosity often develops. I'm going back to the Shelby GT section to escape the political madness of today. Chip is right about this! But, I find it so hard to let the liberal lunacy flow along unchecked! But, maybe I should do the same and just resort to fighting it with my votes, contributions and the like. The liberals will take themselves down eventually anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Chip is right about this! But, I find it so hard to let the liberal lunacy flow along unchecked! But, maybe I should do the same and just resort to fighting it with my votes, contributions and the like. The liberals will take themselves down eventually anyway. I think this is a funny statement when it's the conservatives of this group that create new Obama bashing thread after new Obama trashing thread! I call poeple on their facts you call it "liberal lunacy flow along unchecked"? Where is that cry baby picture one for your fellow conservatives posted in response to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Jeff, Most fans of Thomas Jefferson don't disagree with so many of his fundamental views. Even the most casual reader of materials associated with Thomas Jefferson will come across that quote countless times. Yeah, you will also come across a few postings that dispute this Jefferson quote as they cannot find it in a limited number of source materials they have researched. You'd be hard pressed to dispute that Jefferson had a deep distrust of pure democracy which is indeed mob rule and instead he advocated a republic defined as the rule of law assuring the rights of the minority. How about this quote, "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Would you like to dispute that one as well? I should never post in political threads as no minds are ever changed and needless animosity often develops. I'm going back to the Shelby GT section to escape the political madness of today. All the best. Chip Chip, I separate politics and religion from the person. I love to debate and often learn a thing or two in the process. I really don't care what people think politically and actually pleased they have an opinion! As Pericles said "we regard a man who takes no interest in public affairs not as a harmless, but as a useless person". As for your first quote here is the Jefferson Library's stand on it: http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index...e_than_mob_rule As for your second quote, that's a no-go too: http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index...%28Quotation%29 http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/jefferson-quotes.htm Now this would be a great quote for you! "if we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy." - Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 29 November 1802 See I can be helpful! :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobraCrazy Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 No quite the contrary. Socialism is just communism with a post graduate degree Are you saying it's a smarter version of communism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Doctor Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Agree on BOTH counts! We need a "middle sensible party"! You mean a centrist party? Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2007GT Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Jefferson is one of my hobbies and personal heros and he NEVER said this! Maybe not in those exact words but he CLEARLY believed it. That is why we are a constitutional republic and not a democracy. The founders knew that a true, pure, democracy would be dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2007GT Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 by Star Parker - Syndicated Columnist Six years ago I wrote a book called Uncle Sam's Plantation. I wrote the book to tell my own story of what I saw living inside the welfare state and my own transformation out of it. I said in that book that indeed there are two Americas -- a poor America on socialism and a wealthy America on capitalism. I talked about government programs like Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), Job Opportunities and Basic Skills Training (JOBS), Emergency Assistance to Needy Families with Children (EANF), Section 8 Housing, and Food Stamps. A vast sea of perhaps well-intentioned government programs, all initially set into motion in the 1960s, that were going to lift the nation's poor out of poverty. A benevolent Uncle Sam welcomed mostly poor black Americans onto the government plantation. Those who accepted the invitation switched mindsets from "How do I take care of myself?" to "What do I have to do to stay on the plantation?" Instead of solving economic problems, government welfare socialism created monstrous moral and spiritual problems -- the kind of problems that are inevitable when individuals turn responsibility for their lives over to others.. The legacy of American socialism is our blighted inner cities, dysfunctional inner city schools, and broken black families. Through God's grace, I found my way out. It was then that I understood what freedom meant and how great this country is. I had the privilege of working on welfare reform in 1996, passed by a Republican Congress and signed 50 percent. I thought we were on the road to moving socialism out of our poor black communities and replacing it with wealth-producing American capitalism. But, incredibly, we are going in the opposite direction. Instead of poor America on socialism becoming more like rich American on capitalism, rich America on capitalism is becoming like poor America on socialism. Uncle Sam has welcomed our banks onto the plantation and they have said, "Thank you, Suh." Now, instead of thinking about what creative things need to be done to serve customers, they are thinking about what they have to tell Massah in order to get their cash. There is some kind of irony that this is all happening under our first black president on the 200th anniversary of the birthday of Abraham Lincoln. Worse, socialism seems to be the element of our new young president. And maybe even more troubling, our corporate executives seem happy to move onto the plantation. In an op-ed on the opinion page of the Washington Post, Mr. Obama is clear that the goal of his trillion dollar spending plan is much more than short term economic stimulus. "This plan is more than a prescription for short-term spending -- it's a strategy for America 's long-term growth and opportunity in areas such as renewable energy, healthcare, and education." Perhaps more incredibly, Obama seems to think that government taking over an economy is a new idea. Or that massive growth in government can take place "with unprecedented transparency and accountability." Yes, sir, we heard it from Jimmy Carter when he created the Department of Energy, the Synfuels Corporation, and the Department of Education. Or how about the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 -- The War on Poverty -- which President Johnson said "...does not merely expand old programs or improve what is already being done. It charts a new course. It strikes at the causes, not just the consequences of poverty." Trillions of dollars later, black poverty is the same. But black families are not, with triple the incidence of single-parent homes and out-of-wedlock births. It's not complicated. Americans can accept Barack Obama's invitation to move onto the plantation. Or they can choose personal responsibility and freedom. Does anyone really need to think about what the choice should be? "The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I started to read this I thought of this lady that Glenn Beck has on his show once in a while. Then I got to the bottom and saw her photo and realized that this was her! This lady is really amazing and lived inside the welfare system. She got educated and pulled herself out and now is absolutely anti-welfare. She's very interesting to listen to when she's on Glenn's show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Maybe not in those exact words but he CLEARLY believed it. That is why we are a constitutional republic and not a democracy. The founders knew that a true, pure, democracy would be dangerous. I DO AGREE with you that in the end the general consensus was that a Republic was a firewall between reasoned thought and a fickle public Jefferson was not always as adamant. "The measures of the fair majority... ought always to be respected." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1792. ME 8:397 "I subscribe to the principle, that the will of the majority honestly expressed should give law." --Thomas Jefferson: The Anas, 1793. ME 1:332 "All... being equally free, no one has a right to say what shall be law for the others. Our way is to put these questions to the vote, and to consider that as law for which the majority votes." --Thomas Jefferson: Address to the Cherokee Nation, 1809. ME 16:456 "[We acknowledge] the principle that the majority must give the law." --Thomas Jefferson to William Carmichael, 1788. ME 7:28 "This... [is] a country where the will of the majority is the law, and ought to be the law." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:85 "The fundamental principle of [a common government of associated States] is that the will of the majority is to prevail." --Thomas Jefferson to William Eustis, 1809. "The voice of the majority decides. For the lex majoris partis is the law of all councils, elections, etc., where not otherwise expressly provided." --Thomas Jefferson: Parliamentary Manual, 1800. ME 2:420 "It is the multitude which possess force, and wisdom must yield to that." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1816. ME 14:492 "Bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate would be oppression." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural, 1801. ME 3:318 "If the measures which have been pursued are approved by the majority, it is the duty of the minority to acquiesce and conform." --Thomas Jefferson to William Duane, 1811. ME 13:51 "It is a rule in all countries that what is done by the body of a nation must be submitted to by all its members." --Thomas Jefferson: Address to Miami and Delaware Nations, 1803. ME 16:398 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Doctor Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Wow! The thread's turned into a quote-a-thon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Wow! The thread's turned into a quote-a-thon! You have to deduct the false quotes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobraCrazy Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 "I never thought I was wasted, but I probably was?" Keith Richards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 "I never thought I was wasted, but I probably was?"Keith Richards Now we're talking! :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDT Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Are you saying it's a smarter version of communism? Wish I thaught of that one............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmor Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Wow! The thread's turned into a quote-a-thon! More like a "cut-and-paste-a-thon"!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SicShelby Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 ...Once a proud people now reduced to alcoholism, drug addiction, poverty, violence and living on reservations. Yea, the future does not look good........ Communism has never worked but doesn't convince democrats to stop trying. Americans - once a proud people but soon to be reduced to alcoholism, drug addiction, poverty, violence, and living on reservations... I know this isn't my discussion... but they're just tighten'n the noose as far as I'm concerned - liberal OR conservative. Looks like they're working on the finer details now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 THIS TOTALLY SUMS IT UP!!!! http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jh...cknophobia-obey :happy feet: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnsignaldelete Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 Wow! The thread's turned into a quote-a-thon! "Socialism Su-ks" "Communism Really Su-ks" "Barrack Hussein Obama is a Socialist/Communist" "Oh Yah, and Liberals Su-k Too" Turnsignaldelete April 8, 2009 :beerchug: :tequila: :beerchug: :party2: :party2: :party2: Thaaank You !!!, I'm Here all week !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 More like a "cut-and-paste-a-thon"!!! You guys should be used to that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffIsHereToo Posted April 9, 2009 Report Share Posted April 9, 2009 "Socialism Su-ks""Communism Really Su-ks" "Barrack Hussein Obama is a Socialist/Communist" "Oh Yah, and Liberals Su-k Too" Thaaank You !!!, I'm Here all week !!! You're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Twilight Zone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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