Socialism

[69dejavue]

Before we rush headlong into socialism lets remember the government's history of social engineering. I can think of at least two massive programs. The first is the former slaves in America after the Civil War. The government created a welfare system which is truly unfair to those people as they are generally trapped their for generations. Not all, but many. Many trapped by alcoholism, drug addiction, poverty, violence and living in housing projects.

 

And finally lets look at how the US Government has administered the welfare of the American Indian. Once a proud people now reduced to alcoholism, drug addiction, poverty, violence and living on reservations.

 

Yea, the future does not look good........ Communism has never worked but doesn't convince democrats to stop trying.

[DDT]

[svttim]

We Won

 

 

Not yet old man!

[JeffIsHereToo]

Before we rush headlong into socialism lets remember the government's history of social engineering. I can think of at least two massive programs. The first is the former slaves in America after the Civil War. The government created a welfare system which is truly unfair to those people as they are generally trapped their for generations. Not all, but many. Many trapped by alcoholism, drug addiction, poverty, violence and living in housing projects.

 

And finally lets look at how the US Government has administered the welfare of the American Indian. Once a proud people now reduced to alcoholism, drug addiction, poverty, violence and living on reservations.

 

Yea, the future does not look good........ Communism has never worked but doesn't convince democrats to stop trying.

 

 

Apple's to Oranges?

 

If you want to have an intelligent debate on these things, WHICH I WOULD LOVE, the best comparisons can be had in FDR's response to the Depression after another famous Republican President did nothing. Programs such as the FSA and others that probably built the post office you use if you're in a small town or the bridge you drive over each day, maybe the power you get from the TVA if you're in that region. These expenditures that paid back benefits for many for many years to come are the parallels that can be drawn to the state stimulus money. In that sense rather than create a new department, as was such the case if the FSA, this money is being given to the states with similar targeted infrastructure or education programs. The intent is to put people to work doing things that while providing jobs today also invest in our future.

 

Like I said if you want to debate the merits intelligently I'm all for it! But to pull race, and racial generalizations, into this that inflame and have ZERO relationship to the issues and concerns today doesn't help anyone. If on the other hand you are truly concerned about the plight of the African American, or the American Indian, there are number of organizations you can make donations to or provide your help as a volunteer! The Bush administration made a number or changes to the Indian Land Trust that has further hurt those still in some of the poorest reservations I'm sure you expressed your indignation then as well.

 

 

BTW: What welfare program are you talking about when you mention Civil War slaves?

 

BTW, BTW: The Indian reservation system we have today began with President Grant (Republican), reinforced by Hayes (Republican), however much was done to improve things by passage of the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 under FDR. But that's an entirely different discussion and again has ZERO to do with what's going on today.

[svttim]

Apple's to Oranges?

 

If you want to have an intelligent debate on these things, WHICH I WOULD LOVE, the best comparisons can be had in FDR's response to the Depression after another famous Republican President did nothing. Programs such as the FSA and others that probably built the post office you use if you're in a small town or the bridge you drive over each day, maybe the power you get from the TVA if you're in that region. These expenditures that paid back benefits for many for many years to come are the parallels that can be drawn to the state stimulus money. In that sense rather than create a new department, as was such the case if the FSA, this money is being given to the states with similar targeted infrastructure or education programs. The intent is to put people to work doing things that while providing jobs today also invest in our future.

 

Like I said if you want to debate the merits intelligently I'm all for it! But to pull race, and racial generalizations, into this that inflame and have ZERO relationship to the issues and concerns today doesn't help anyone. If on the other hand you are truly concerned about the plight of the African American, or the American Indian, there are number of organizations you can make donations to or provide your help as a volunteer! The Bush administration made a number or changes to the Indian Land Trust that has further hurt those still in some of the poorest reservations I'm sure you expressed your indignation then as well.

 

 

BTW: What welfare program are you talking about when you mention Civil War slaves?

 

BTW, BTW: The Indian reservation system we have today began with President Grant (Republican), reinforced by Hayes (Republican), however much was done to improve things by passage of the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 under FDR. But that's an entirely different discussion and again has ZERO to do with what's going on today.

 

 

Funny, I have never mentioned race but have been called a racist from the left. You cant have it both ways.

[JeffIsHereToo]

Funny, I have never mentioned race but have been called a racist from the left. You cant have it both ways.

 

You miss my point and that's no doubt due to my feeble attempt to explain my thoughts on this. To me the fact that the OP used two racial groups and gave gross generalizations and stereotypes to make a point about something that had no relationship to the topic at hand was cause for pause.

 

I didn't call anyone a "racist" I don't think for a second the OP is, nor you, but that these types of comments are charged and when they have nothing to do with the current situation can inflame and that was what I was trying to get across, perhaps poorly.

 

All the best!

[svttim]

You miss my point and that's no doubt due to my feeble attempt to explain my thoughts on this. To me the fact that the OP used two racial groups and gave gross generalizations and stereotypes to make a point about something that had no relationship to the topic at hand was cause for pause.

 

I didn't call anyone a "racist" I don't think for a second the OP is, nor you, but that these types of comments are charged and when they have nothing to do with the current situation can inflame and that was what I was trying to get across, perhaps poorly.

 

All the best!

 

Understood. And I believe there is common ground out there on all of these issues. It seems right now that, tha administration is throwing the constitution away. Something they accused the last administration of doing.I think the OP is frustrated with the lack of law

[JeffIsHereToo]

Understood. And I believe there is common ground out there on all of these issues. It seems right now that, tha administration is throwing the constitution away. Something they accused the last administration of doing.I think the OP is frustrated with the lack of law

 

If you go back and read history, which maybe you can tell is a life-long hobby of mine, you will see these same objections raised against much of the "New Deal" and in general FDR's response to the Depression. When it comes to trampling on the Constitution, a document I love dearly and gave an oath to protect, many felt the same way under Bush and all that was done around privacy, civil rights, habeas corpus, etc.

 

While I hear a lot of claims made on both sides I think in the end BOTH administrations did and are doing what they truly think is in the best long term interests of the country. That's what they are elected to do! What we see here in this posting and others is a great example of why our VERY SMART forefathers prescribed a representative form of government and why in the end this country and it's government have last 232 years! No matter what party or person is in power this country has always had a great capacity to moderate and move forward.

 

This too will pass and I suspect one day I will be here posting about the failings of some future Republican administration. I mean it could happen one day...right?

[svttim]

If you go back and read history, which maybe you can tell is a life-long hobby of mine, you will see these same objections raised against much of the "New Deal" and in general FDR's response to the Depression. When it comes to trampling on the Constitution, a document I love dearly and gave an oath to protect, many felt the same way under Bush and all that was done around privacy, civil rights, habeas corpus, etc.

 

While I hear a lot of claims made on both sides I think in the end BOTH administrations did and are doing what they truly think is in the best long term interests of the country. That's what they are elected to do! What we see here in this posting and others is a great example of why our VERY SMART forefathers prescribed a representative form of government and why in the end this country and it's government have last 232 years! No matter what party or person is in power this country has always had a great capacity to moderate and move forward.

 

This too will pass and I suspect one day I will be here posting about the failings of some future Republican administration. I mean it could happen one day...right?

 

Mid Term Elections will be interesting. We so need more than 2 parties

[JeffIsHereToo]

Mid Term Elections will be interesting. We so need more than 2 parties

 

 

Agree on BOTH counts!

 

We need a "middle sensible party"!

[69dejavue]

Jeff, several thoughts. I would also love to have an intelligent debate with the liberals but fear I would be battling an unarmed opponent.

 

I don't know whom you were referring to as a racist, myself or Tim.

 

There was no issue of racism, race baiting, generalities, etc. Just facts. The former slaves, following the civil war, have never fully entered into main stream America. You live in Chicago. If you do not believe me go to the South side of Chicago and other various neighborhoods where there is poverty, addiction, illiteracy, illegitimacy, violence, etc. That is a fact. Yes many Blacks have entered into mainstream America but a dispropitiniate number are mired in poverty and slums.

 

The American Indians have violence, alcoholism, drug addiction, illiteracy, etc. The government has been responsible for their conditions for over 100 years.

 

History was my first major in college and also a life long pursuit. Including the history of Shelby.

 

 

FYI! Oops! Hit the edit button by mistake! Sorry! -Jeff

[JeffIsHereToo]

Jeff, several thoughts. I would also love to have an intelligent debate with the liberals but fear I would be battling an unarmed opponent.

 

I don't know whom you were referring to as a racist, myself or Tim.

 

There was no issue of racism, race baiting, generalities, etc. Just facts. The former slaves, following the civil war, have never fully entered into main stream America. You live in Chicago. If you do not believe me go to the South side of Chicago and other various neighborhoods where there is poverty, addiction, illiteracy, illegitimacy, violence, etc. That is a fact. Yes many Blacks have entered into mainstream America but a dispropitiniate number are mired in poverty and slums.

 

The American Indians have violence, alcoholism, drug addiction, illiteracy, etc. The government has been responsible for their conditions for over 100 years.

 

History was my first major in college and also a life long pursuit. Including the history of Shelby.

 

 

Again, where is this imagined "racist" accusation I've made because that was certainly not my intent!

 

Anyway, hey I think you should very much "fear" debating me because it seems to me that you're armed with blanks! Lots of noise but little substance!

 

You say "just facts" but you didn't state any facts and you still don't so it's kind of hard to debate you. For example in your post you've cited some imagined welfare program for slaves after the civil war when in fact there was none. But regardless you haven't yet told us what, if anything, this has to do with the current economic challenges this country faces.

[69dejavue]

Jeff, there are facts and then there is the term judicial notice. Do you know the meaning?

 

Yes there is welfare in this country. The War on Poverty is a fact. It was a government program under LBJ. Fact.

 

A disproprtionate percentage of American Blacks and Indians live in poverty. Maybe you need to visit an inner city neighborhood or the American Western reservations.

 

I would call the War on Poverty a welfare program that was designed primarily for Blacks in the US. They were former slaves. But then you being a history buff I would have thought you would have known this.

 

It appears you have little experience or exposure to the lower socio ecnomic areas and people of our great country. Too many live in poverty, crime, addiction, violence, etc. Those are also facts.

[DDT]

Not yet old man!

 

Your only as old as you feel my friend...........

[DDT]

I understand Jesus is a Socialist and he sets the Standard to live by???????????

[JeffIsHereToo]

Jeff, there are facts and then there is the term judicial notice. Do you know the meaning?

 

Yes there is welfare in this country. The War on Poverty is a fact. It was a government program under LBJ. Fact.

 

A disproprtionate percentage of American Blacks and Indians live in poverty. Maybe you need to visit an inner city neighborhood or the American Western reservations.

 

I would call the War on Poverty a welfare program that was designed primarily for Blacks in the US. They were former slaves. But then you being a history buff I would have thought you would have known this.

 

It appears you have little experience or exposure to the lower socio ecnomic areas and people of our great country. Too many live in poverty, crime, addiction, violence, etc. Those are also facts.

 

 

Wait wait wait!

 

I was addressing your post when you claimed there was a welfare program for former slaves after the Civil War. There was not.

 

Welfare began as a Federal Program under FDR in the 1030's.

 

LBJs War on Poverty was just as much about the poverty found in the white Appalachia regions and places like West Virginia in the mid-to late 60's as it was for blacks. As for your comment "they were former slaves", there were only a handful blacks born into slavery still alive in the 1960's.

 

I don't disagree with your last sentence, other than your conclusion as to my experience and my own personal "lower socio economic" past, but I still have no better idea what any of this has to do with your making it a relationship to what the President is doing, a man I think I can say with confidence, that knows a heck of a lot more than you or I about the issues confronting those in lower socio economic conditions.

[ilmor]

Let's be realistic now...Obama hasn't shown the public any real facts that he knows much about anything other than what his teleprompter tells him, but he has people who work for him that SHOULD. Let's bear in mind that his qualifications are Community Organizer and a Senator that voted "Present".

[svttim]

I understand Jesus is a Socialist and he sets the Standard to live by???????????

 

 

I think you need to do a litlle more research

[69dejavue]

Jeff, the bottom line is the federal government has been trying to help the poor, the oppressed, the disadvantaged for an extended period of time. With friends like that who needs enemies. The government decides how the Indians live and it is deplorable. Again, we don't need their social engineering for the rest of the country if our slums and reservations are any indication of what is to come. Sadly, the slums and reservations are an example of our federal government.

[69dejavue]

Jeff, I might be wrong but I assume you do not have much exposure to the ghettos and slums of our nations. Is that correct?

[ChipBeck]

I understand Jesus is a Socialist and he sets the Standard to live by???????????

 

DDT,

 

Jesus was just about as far from being a socialist as you can get. Socialism takes the income and property of some individuals by force and distributes it to other individuals without regard to the wishes of the individual from whom the property was confiscated. This is far different than taxation to run the essential functions of government. Forced charity is not charity at all. If I force you at gunpoint to give me $100 and I turn around and give 10 people $10 each, you have not been charitable, you have been robbed. Liberals are a curious group. They look around and see what they perceive is a need. They then take the property and income of some other group, lose a lot of it in bureaucratic inefficiency and then distribute what is left to those in need. Then they feel better about themselves although they probably contributed nothing. Being charitable with someone else's money is also not charity. But what a deal for the Socialist. I see someone over there who looks like he's in need.....and I see someone over there who appears to have more than he needs.......so I will take it from him using the full monopoly on force of our government.....and give it to the man I perceived to be in need......and then I'll sit back and feel good about myself. I am a good person.

 

No you're not. Thomas Jefferson feared we would come to this some day when he said, "Democracy is nothing other than mob rule, where 51% of the people can take the property and liberties of the other 49%."

 

Jesus advocated giving to the poor, he did not advocate taking something by force from another individual so that you could then give that to the poor. Jesus believed in the sanctity of life, and in both personal responsibility and accountability. Jesus was a living breathing reproach to Socialism.

 

Chip

[ilmor]

Chip - thank you. When I read that slam on Jesus last night I found myself at a loss for words, but you have done an excellent job in setting the facts straight.

 

Jesus calls on every person to give of themselves and love thy neighbor, not for people in power to decide the needs for us and to take from the "rich" and give to their voters and those that put them (Obama, Polosi, etc.) in power.

 

The liberals and "special interest groups" require a great deal of prayer, so I've been doing my part!

[DDT]

DDT,

 

Jesus was just about as far from being a socialist as you can get. Socialism takes the income and property of some individuals by force and distributes it to other individuals without regard to the wishes of the individual from whom the property was confiscated. This is far different than taxation to run the essential functions of government. Forced charity is not charity at all. If I force you at gunpoint to give me $100 and I turn around and give 10 people $10 each, you have not been charitable, you have been robbed. Liberals are a curious group. They look around and see what they perceive is a need. They then take the property and income of some other group, lose a lot of it in bureaucratic inefficiency and then distribute what is left to those in need. Then they feel better about themselves although that probably contributed nothing. Being charitable with someone else's money is also not charity. But what a deal for the Socialist. I see someone over there who looks like he's in need.....and I see someone over there who appears to have more than he needs.......so I will take it from him using the full monopoly on force of our government.....and give it to the man I perceived to be in need......and then I'll sit back and feel good about myself. I am a good person.

 

No you're not. Thomas Jefferson feared we would come to this some day when he said, "Democracy is nothing other than mob rule, where 51% of the people can take the property and liberties of the other 49%."

 

Jesus advocated giving to the poor, he did not advocate taking something by force from another individual so that you could then give that to the poor. Jesus believed in the sanctity of life, and in both personal responsibility and accountability. Jesus was a living breathing reproach to Socialism.

 

Chip

 

Thank's, I agree with most of your Points and much of the same could be said about Capitalism??????

And my post was definately not meant to be a "slam on Jesus"..............

[JeffIsHereToo]

Thomas Jefferson feared we would come to this some day when he said, "Democracy is nothing other than mob rule, where 51% of the people can take the property and liberties of the other 49%."

 

Jefferson is one of my hobbies and personal heros and he NEVER said this!

 

[JeffIsHereToo]

Jeff, the bottom line is the federal government has been trying to help the poor, the oppressed, the disadvantaged for an extended period of time. With friends like that who needs enemies. The government decides how the Indians live and it is deplorable. Again, we don't need their social engineering for the rest of the country if our slums and reservations are any indication of what is to come. Sadly, the slums and reservations are an example of our federal government.

 

Sorry, I just don't agree with your premise, I just think it's far far too simplistic, and worse the stretching these into an area where there is I just don't see any direct causal relationship nor any similarities, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree!

 

I think our current economic situation is far too complex and a web of junk to the extreme such that there is no simple answer or magic bullet. At least I know I don't know what to do anyway! There are people a lot smarter than me on both sides of every issue that can't agree, and we had a people a lot smarter than I at the helm of these departments and companies all these years, and we still ended up where we are.

 

So...I'll just try to stay informed and hope it all works out in the end!

[ilmor]

by Star Parker - Syndicated Columnist

 

 

 

Six years ago I wrote a book called Uncle Sam's Plantation. I wrote the book to tell my own story of what I saw living inside the welfare state and my own transformation out of it.

 

I said in that book that indeed there are two Americas -- a poor America on socialism and a wealthy America on capitalism.

 

I talked about government programs like Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), Job Opportunities and Basic Skills Training (JOBS), Emergency Assistance to Needy Families with Children (EANF), Section 8 Housing, and Food Stamps.

 

A vast sea of perhaps well-intentioned government programs, all initially set into motion in the 1960s, that were going to lift the nation's poor out of poverty.

 

A benevolent Uncle Sam welcomed mostly poor black Americans onto the government plantation. Those who accepted the invitation switched mindsets from "How do I take care of myself?" to "What do I have to do to stay on the plantation?"

 

Instead of solving economic problems, government welfare socialism created monstrous moral and spiritual problems -- the kind of problems that are inevitable when individuals turn responsibility for their lives over to others..

 

The legacy of American socialism is our blighted inner cities, dysfunctional inner city schools, and broken black families.

 

Through God's grace, I found my way out. It was then that I understood what freedom meant and how great this country is.

 

I had the privilege of working on welfare reform in 1996, passed by a Republican Congress and signed 50 percent.

 

I thought we were on the road to moving socialism out of our poor black communities and replacing it with wealth-producing American capitalism.

 

But, incredibly, we are going in the opposite direction.

 

Instead of poor America on socialism becoming more like rich American on capitalism, rich America on capitalism is becoming like poor America on socialism.

 

Uncle Sam has welcomed our banks onto the plantation and they have said, "Thank you, Suh."

 

Now, instead of thinking about what creative things need to be done to serve customers, they are thinking about what they have to tell Massah in order to get their cash.

 

There is some kind of irony that this is all happening under our first black president on the 200th anniversary of the birthday of Abraham Lincoln.

 

Worse, socialism seems to be the element of our new young president. And maybe even more troubling, our corporate executives seem happy to move onto the plantation.

 

In an op-ed on the opinion page of the Washington Post, Mr. Obama is clear that the goal of his trillion dollar spending plan is much more than short term economic stimulus.

 

"This plan is more than a prescription for short-term spending -- it's a strategy for America 's long-term growth and opportunity in areas such as renewable energy, healthcare, and education."

 

Perhaps more incredibly, Obama seems to think that government taking over an economy is a new idea. Or that massive growth in government can take place "with unprecedented transparency and accountability."

 

Yes, sir, we heard it from Jimmy Carter when he created the Department of Energy, the Synfuels Corporation, and the Department of Education.

 

Or how about the Economic Opportunity Act of 1964 -- The War on Poverty -- which President Johnson said "...does not merely expand old programs or improve what is already being done. It charts a new course. It strikes at the causes, not just the consequences of poverty."

 

Trillions of dollars later, black poverty is the same. But black families are not, with triple the incidence of single-parent homes and out-of-wedlock births.

 

It's not complicated. Americans can accept Barack Obama's invitation to move onto the plantation. Or they can choose personal responsibility and freedom.

 

Does anyone really need to think about what the choice should be?

 

"The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

 

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[DDT]

Socialism is the effect of Capitalism gone too far???????????????

[svttim]

Socialism is the effect of Capitalism gone too far???????????????

 

 

Agreed, and the wrong thing to do. Whats the matter with going to the middle ground?

[DDT]

Agreed, and the wrong thing to do. Whats the matter with going to the middle ground?

 

Because Capitalism went waaaaaaay toooooo faaaaaar and created this unpresidented crisis??????

[DDT]

I also believe Socialism will not get as extreme as you folks do????????????