Obama and GUNS

[69dejavue]

?? Doesn't get much easier than the Glock takedown.

 

Well, when the M&P's quit showing rust and mags stop dropping out by accident... then maybe (maybe) they'll gain the legendary reputation that Glock has.

 

But I doubt it very much.

 

Nice guns, but not in the same league as Glock.

 

Bandit, I know many people that carry the M&P night and day now for several years. Including former Glock owners. I am not aware of any rust as the slide is stainless steel with a tennifer type finish similar to the Glock. I am not aware of anyone having a problem with magazine drops. I am sure there could be isolated instances. I am aware that the city of New York threatened to swithc 30,000 glocks because of stage 3 jams and rail failures. And mechanical failure discharges. (google glock kaboom). This does not even consider the having to pull the trigger to disassemble. I know, people are supposed to triple check the chamber but there have been way too many that have had accidental or negligent discharges. In private industry if there is a problem, even if the product performs as designed, they change the design. I am very familiar with the development of the M&P and had input to the design. S&W wisely started with a clean sheet of paper and, in the opinion of many, improved upon the glock. The glock has been around about 20 years and S&W improved upon it. It is designed to be more accurate due to frame rigidity. S&W has converted about 350 police departments in just the last 2-3 years to the M&P and many were former glocks. I am also an armorer for the M&P so am very well versed with the design and strengths of the pistol. I have used both and in my professional opinion the M&P is certainly an improvement upon the glock. But there will always be differences of opinion, just as between Ford, Chevy, and Mopar. Good Luck.

[SkyPilot]

Which has more muzzle energy-.45 ACP in a 1911 five inch barrel or a .357 magnum with a six inch barrel?

[69dejavue]

Which has more muzzle energy-.45 ACP in a 1911 five inch barrel or a .357 magnum with a six inch barrel?

 

Winchester does not make a 357 magnum in Ranger so I did a quick search on Gold Dot. The 357, even in a 4 " barrel , has more muzzle energy than the 45. But that does not tell all of the story. There are too many variables to give a yes or no on which is the best performer. When you compare the two you must also consider barrel length, velocity, muzzle flash, expansion, penetration, over penetration, type of expansion, etc. The 45 is more of a heavy slow moving bullett. The 357 is a lighter weight very fast bullet. There is also a 357 Sig caliber now that tries to replicate the 357 Magnum in a semi auto pistol. Look at how each compare on the FBI standardized barrier protocols. Whatever you do don't just consider unprotected ballistic gelatin as the only consideration. Also consider the recoil of the 357 and 45, how long will it take to get back on target for followup shots, etc. There are many, many variables to consider and first you must define your mission and know what is best suited for that mission.

[Boss Doctor]

Winchester does not make a 357 magnum in Ranger so I did a quick search on Gold Dot. The 357, even in a 4 " barrel , has more muzzle energy than the 45. But that does not tell all of the story. There are too many variables to give a yes or no on which is the best performer. When you compare the two you must also consider barrel length, velocity, muzzle flash, expansion, penetration, over penetration, type of expansion, etc. The 45 is more of a heavy slow moving bullett. The 357 is a lighter weight very fast bullet. There is also a 357 Sig caliber now that tries to replicate the 357 Magnum in a semi auto pistol. Look at how each compare on the FBI standardized barrier protocols. Whatever you do don't just consider unprotected ballistic gelatin as the only consideration. Also consider the recoil of the 357 and 45, how long will it take to get back on target for followup shots, etc. There are many, many variables to consider and first you must define your mission and know what is best suited for that mission.

 

And don't forget to take into account how many screaming filipino natives, Italians, Germans, Japanese, etc, the .45 has stopped dead in their tracks! :happy feet:

[Oh8SnakeDriver]

OK, here's my take on this subject:

 

If it's for home defense you need a 12G shotgun, mine is a Mossberg 590 pump with a 9 shell capability, trust me when the bad guy hears you jack the 1ST round into the chamber he'll know he's made a major mistake! If it's a hand gun you need, I like the .45 ACP, it's been stopping bad guys for a very long time. All the major makers are good, mine is the ParaOrdinance P1445 LDA .45 ACP in Stainless Steel. Even though the US Military adopted the 9MM as the caliber of choice for it's side arms, most US Special Forces troops carry a side arm in .45 ACP, I think that says it all. If .45 ACP is too big for ya, I'd look into a handgun in the .40 SW caliber (it's the caliber of choice for the FBI) before I'd go to the 9MM round. 9MM would be my last choice!

Now my take on the Glock vs anything else out there: Back when I was a gun dealer in the early 90's, I sold 3 Glocks, 2 of which broke on their 1ST use. Yeah I know that they have a great rep. but I decided then and there that I wasn't going to bet my life on one!

BTW it's not illegal to own a handgun in Chicago! Everyone that had a handgun before the ban was able to get them registered and keep them (as long as the owners kept renewing them) everyone else can own a hand gun in Chicago they just have to keep them outside of the city limits. I have friends that live in Chicago and keep their handguns at relatives homes outside of the city limits. Yes the city is going to fight the US Supreme Courts decision on the D.C. handgun ban that was overturned! Just another waste of tax payers monies. The Mayor of Chicago is a F$@%&@g idiot!

Now my take on gun control: I believe that gun control is being able to put the 2ND bullet through the hole the 1ST makes!

Join the NRA and defend the 2ND Amendment like your life depends on it! It just may!

Mike

[VNMOUS1]

>>>>>>everyone else can own a hand gun in Chicago they just have to keep them outside of the city limits.<<<<<

 

 

 

Uh, then you can't OWN a gun IN Chicago. And, you can gt all the ugly details at

 

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/ordinances.cfm

 

bj

[69dejavue]

And don't forget to take into account how many screaming filipino natives, Italians, Germans, Japanese, etc, the .45 has stopped dead in their tracks! :happy feet:

 

That is actually the history or conception of the 45, in the Phillipines. The muslim fanatics in the Phillipines were battling the US forces and would bind their chest and torso with branches and vines. The 38 S&W (38 short, not the 38 special) would not sufficiently penetrate so the bad guys kept charging even though shot. So the military did a study and recommended the 45, a heavy, slow bullet to stop the fanatics and become the sidearm effective in 1911. They also recommended the 45 as being necessary to put down their own cavalary horses when necessary.

 

Re the 9 v 40 v 45. The 45 definitely has more stopping power (not knock down, but stopping power). There is very little difference between the performace of a 40 and 9 when you consider penetration and expansion and the 9 is inheriently more accurate. The 40 only came into existence for the FBI because they used the wrong ammo for the 9 mm, then panicked and went to the 10 mm. Then they realized the accuracy dropped dramatically and S&W and Winchester created the 10 mm short, voila; the 40 S&W cartridge. Funny, most manufacturers of 40s print 40 S&W on the slide or barrel. Ruger prints 40 auto. It seems like every manufacturer wants his own name. Sig has the 357 Sig, S&W the 40 S&W, and Glock has the 45 GAP which is not catching on at this time. The SIG 357 is being used but is a very hot round. Very similar to the 9mm +p+. Most weapons chambered for SIG 357 can be converted to 40 by merely changing the barrel. The weapon can use the same slide and even the same magazines since the Sig 357 is a bottled necked 40 casing with a 9mm bullet seated on top.

[mcdover]

Can't beat the stoppin power of a .45. That being said I'm partial to Kimber.

 

 

I disagree. If a handgun with stopping power is what you are looking for, then you need this:

 

Desert Eagle 50 cal

 

 

[Boss Doctor]

That is actually the history or conception of the 45, in the Phillipines. The muslim fanatics in the Phillipines were battling the US forces and would bind their chest and torso with branches and vines. The 38 S&W (38 short, not the 38 special) would not sufficiently penetrate so the bad guys kept charging even though shot. So the military did a study and recommended the 45, a heavy, slow bullet to stop the fanatics and become the sidearm effective in 1911. They also recommended the 45 as being necessary to put down their own cavalary horses when necessary.

 

Re the 9 v 40 v 45. The 45 definitely has more stopping power (not knock down, but stopping power). There is very little difference between the performace of a 40 and 9 when you consider penetration and expansion and the 9 is inheriently more accurate. The 40 only came into existence for the FBI because they used the wrong ammo for the 9 mm, then panicked and went to the 10 mm. Then they realized the accuracy dropped dramatically and S&W and Winchester created the 10 mm short, voila; the 40 S&W cartridge. Funny, most manufacturers of 40s print 40 S&W on the slide or barrel. Ruger prints 40 auto. It seems like every manufacturer wants his own name. Sig has the 357 Sig, S&W the 40 S&W, and Glock has the 45 GAP which is not catching on at this time. The SIG 357 is being used but is a very hot round. Very similar to the 9mm +p+. Most weapons chambered for SIG 357 can be converted to 40 by merely changing the barrel. The weapon can use the same slide and even the same magazines since the Sig 357 is a bottled necked 40 casing with a 9mm bullet seated on top.

 

Weren't they called Moros?

[69dejavue]

Yes they were, and to this day, called Moros. Islam has been in the Phillipines since about the 1400's. The Moros are generally Islamic.

[Oh8SnakeDriver]

>>>>>>everyone else can own a hand gun in Chicago they just have to keep them outside of the city limits.<<<<<

 

 

 

Uh, then you can't OWN a gun IN Chicago. And, you can gt all the ugly details at

 

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/ordinances.cfm

 

bj

BJ,

I stand corrected. What I should have written was that residents of the city of Chicago can own handguns, they just can not possess them inside the city limits.

Mike

[SLB8SNK]

Ask a question, get a thousand opinions, so here is mine:

 

I own several guns, for different reasons. I did not read all the comments here, but I did read some. If this is your first gun, and you will be carrying it, I would HIGHLY recommend the S&W 9mm, in either a long or short stock and barrel.

 

Several reasons. First the S&W have ambidextrous safety, nice to have. Second the frames come in differing metals, pick your poison. Third they are one of the safest hand guns on the market. Fourth, I used to run a service and had 60+ people in weapons and standardized it to the S&W 9mm and never had an issue, never had a mishap, and everyone found a model to fit. For those who say go with a 45, it's a tank, and the reason the 9mm came into play. You can add a wide range of rounds, and trust they can do some damage, so for those that say to stay away, they have no clue. It was the number one choice for law enforcement and still is, for many of the reasons i quoted above.

 

If you are still looking, I have a few used (great shape) would be happy to give you a great deal on one. PM me if interested.

[GT500-07]

any one have The Judge? looks interesting

 

http://www.taurususa.com/dsp_taurus_judge.cfm

[Boss Doctor]

any one have The Judge? looks interesting

 

http://www.taurususa.com/dsp_taurus_judge.cfm

 

When I was younger, I heard of several cases of people shot with a 410, and it seems that all it did was piss them off.

[GT500-07]

410 slug would more then hurt

[Boss Doctor]

410 slug would more then hurt

 

I imagine, but why bother when you have the 45 Colt?

 

I can also just see some inventive lawyer using the name of the weapon to imply intent of the one who used it. "The name of this weapon is 'The Judge' as in you think you're the judge, jury, and executioner of the husband of my client because he entered your home erroneously?"

[mcdover]

I imagine, but why bother when you have the 45 Colt?

 

I can also just see some inventive lawyer using the name of the weapon to imply intent of the one who used it. "The name of this weapon is 'The Judge' as in you think you're the judge, jury, and executioner of the husband of my client because he entered your home erroneously?"

 

Actually, the name came about because some judges were supposedly carrying these guns in the courtroom. At least, that's what Taurus has said.

 

Also, you might want to check out the videos on their website. I especially like the part where he shoots a plywood carjacker through the passenger side window. I think if that was a real person, it would do a LOT more than just piss them off. Here's the video:

 

http://www.taurususa.com/video/taurus-theJudge-video.cfm

[Matts]

Sorry for topic steal, but how would one go about getting their gun lisense?

I fear for my safety and my parents safety so I want them to go and get their gun lisenses, but they have no idea and I don't either.

[JeffIsHereToo]

Sorry for topic steal, but how would one go about getting their gun lisense?

I fear for my safety and my parents safety so I want them to go and get their gun lisenses, but they have no idea and I don't either.

 

 

I'm sure your local gun shop will be VERY helpful in that regard.

[Afterburner]

Sorry for topic steal, but how would one go about getting their gun lisense?

I fear for my safety and my parents safety so I want them to go and get their gun lisenses, but they have no idea and I don't either.

 

Different states and counties have different rules. Some you don't need anything but ID to purchase a handgun. If you want to carry concealed, the rules are usually different. If your state allows CC, usually you have to take a safety course and to get your CC permit. In Virginia, I could carry open without a permit but for CC, you need a safety course and get finger printed which they send out to do a backround check.

[Boss Doctor]

Actually, the name came about because some judges were supposedly carrying these guns in the courtroom. At least, that's what Taurus has said.

 

Also, you might want to check out the videos on their website. I especially like the part where he shoots a plywood carjacker through the passenger side window. I think if that was a real person, it would do a LOT more than just piss them off. Here's the video:

 

http://www.taurususa.com/video/taurus-theJudge-video.cfm

 

I saw where they got the name, but that won't matter to a lawyer during a civil case. They don't care about what's true or right; only about the win.

 

My father and my wife's grandfather were both shot with 410's while hunting, and it pissed them off. Anything up close will do major damage if the pattern hasn't had time to spread. I'd imagine out of a short barrel, the pattern would spread quickly.

[mcdover]

I saw where they got the name, but that won't matter to a lawyer during a civil case. They don't care about what's true or right; only about the win.

 

My father and my wife's grandfather were both shot with 410's while hunting, and it pissed them off. Anything up close will do major damage if the pattern hasn't had time to spread. I'd imagine out of a short barrel, the pattern would spread quickly.

 

Are you saying that you wouldn't carry this gun because you would be afraid of getting sued by someone you shot in self-defense? Do you really think the name used to market this gun is going to matter if you do shoot someone? A lawyer is going to sue regardless of what the gun is called. So, it really doesn't matter if you shoot them with a .410 shot shell gun called "The Judge" or a .44 mag popularized by the Dirty Harry movies, a civil suit will be based on the circumstances of the shooting, not the weapon used.

 

This gun is made, designed and marketed as a self-defense weapon. With the rifled barrel, it is designed to spread the pattern quickly to dispatch a carjacker or intruder at close range. The other use is as a snake gun. I am considering this gun myself and if I do purchase it, I will alternate each cylinder with shot shell and .45 long colt rounds. That way, I get maximum close range protection with the combination of penetration power. If used in the home, I could just use the shot shells and not worry about over penetration through walls and hitting my family members in other rooms. I can't think of another weapon that has this versatility.

[Boss Doctor]

Are you saying that you wouldn't carry this gun because you would be afraid of getting sued by someone you shot in self-defense? Do you really think the name used to market this gun is going to matter if you do shoot someone? A lawyer is going to sue regardless of what the gun is called. So, it really doesn't matter if you shoot them with a .410 shot shell gun called "The Judge" or a .44 mag popularized by the Dirty Harry movies, a civil suit will be based on the circumstances of the shooting, not the weapon used.

 

This gun is made, designed and marketed as a self-defense weapon. With the rifled barrel, it is designed to spread the pattern quickly to dispatch a carjacker or intruder at close range. The other use is as a snake gun. I am considering this gun myself and if I do purchase it, I will alternate each cylinder with shot shell and .45 long colt rounds. That way, I get maximum close range protection with the combination of penetration power. If used in the home, I could just use the shot shells and not worry about over penetration through walls and hitting my family members in other rooms. I can't think of another weapon that has this versatility.

 

As a former police officer, I was trained to shoot to kill, but I was instructed to say that I was shooting to stop. The name of the weapon would be used to imply that your mindset was to kill; not stop, and that angle would be to increase puitive damages. That's all I'm saying. Yes, you'll be sued no matter what, but the impression of you in the jury's mind has a heavy effect on the outcome of the suit/damages.

[mcdover]

As a former police officer, I was trained to shoot to kill, but I was instructed to say that I was shooting to stop. The name of the weapon would be used to imply that your mindset was to kill; not stop, and that angle would be to increase puitive damages. That's all I'm saying. Yes, you'll be sued no matter what, but the impression of you in the jury's mind has a heavy effect on the outcome of the suit/damages.

 

Well, your whole point on civil suits are moot to me. I live in a state that has Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws, so I am protected against any civil suit in the case of self-defense regardless of the what the weapon used is called. Someone can ATTEMPT to break into my house, and, if I feel that my, or my family's life is threatned, I can use deadly force with a weapon called "Burglar Executioner", and not fear any civil suit. Just as long as the shooting is considered justifiable, I can not be sued.

[Boss Doctor]

Well, your whole point on civil suits are moot to me. I live in a state that has Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws, so I am protected against any civil suit in the case of self-defense regardless of the what the weapon used is called. Someone can ATTEMPT to break into my house, and, if I feel that my, or my family's life is threatned, I can use deadly force with a weapon called "Burglar Executioner", and not fear any civil suit. Just as long as the shooting is considered justifiable, I can not be sued.

 

In which state would that be? In Tennessee, killing a person unlawfully entering your home is justifiable homicide, but you have no real protection from civil suit.

[mcdover]

In which state would that be? In Tennessee, killing a person unlawfully entering your home is justifiable homicide, but you have no real protection from civil suit.

 

 

It is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and resolve all doubt. ~Abraham Lincoln

 

You are so wrong, I don't know where to start first. Your state, Tennessee not only has a Castle Doctrine Law, but it also has the provision known as "Stand Your Ground" which provides immunity from any and all lawsuits where force is used to protect yourself or another person. You mentioned someone unlawfully entering your home, well this law states that you have NO DUTY TO RETREAT from anywhere you have a right to be. This could be your car, the sidewalk, McDonald's, anywhere. I am glad you're not a cop anymore, since you definitely do not know the laws of your own state.

 

Here's the Tennessee law in a nutshell:

 

The Tennessee "Castle Doctrine" law basically does three things:

 

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

 

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others.

 

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

 

It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them.

 

Here are the state's with the "Stand Your Ground Law" that are essentially the same as Florida's law and offer immunity from any lawsuits by the assailant:

 

 

• Alabama

• Arizona

• Florida

• Georgia

• Indiana

• Kentucky

• Louisiana

• Oklahoma §21-1289.25

• South Carolina (Persons not "required to needlessly retreat.")

• Texas

• Tennessee 2007 Tenn. Pub. Acts Ch. 210 (Amends Tenn. Code. Ann. § 39-11-611)

• Washington

 

[FiaCobra]

Well, dead men tell no tales. Make sure it's a "complete shoot"......that ought to limit your ass from being sued.

[mcdover]

Well, dead men tell no tales. Make sure it's a "complete shoot"......that ought to limit your ass from being sued.

 

Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

[69dejavue]

Not necessarily. The victim's estate can, and usually does, sue.

[Boss Doctor]

Not necessarily. The victim's estate can, and usually does, sue.

 

Absolutely!