S197 Boss Mustang On The Way

[JETSOLVER]

Dan found this in some event coverage. No write up. Any idea? Sorry gang its a BMP file so you'll have to download it, but its worth it IMHO. Note the name..... :happy feet:

 

untitled.bmp

 

 

Now with Jpeg goodness.

 

[carnut]

Dan found this in some event coverage. No write up. Any idea? Sorry gang its a BMP file so you'll have to download it, but its worth it IMHO. Note the name..... :happy feet:

 

untitled.bmp

Guys, guys. Dont you think that with the 6 liter LS2 and the 6.2 liter hemi, that it would completely logical to develop some sort of variant of the Hurricane at 6 plus liters to keep pace with the competition? And isn't the Hurricane loosely a modular motor?? I then present the new Boss at 6 liters plus. And it can be a high rever 6500 plus rpm.

[stewdee]

Guys, guys. Dont you think that with the 6 liter LS2 and the 6.2 liter hemi, that it would completely logical to develop some sort of variant of the Hurricane at 6 plus liters to keep pace with the competition? And isn't the Hurricane loosely a modular motor?? I then present the new Boss at 6 liters plus. And it can be a high rever 6500 plus rpm.

 

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...?showtopic=7813

check out the above link for some good info on this topic.

[RUFDRAFT]

My Boss is back in my driveway tomorrow!

[68fastback]

Guys, guys. Dont you think that with the 6 liter LS2 and the 6.2 liter hemi, that it would completely logical to develop some sort of variant of the Hurricane at 6 plus liters to keep pace with the competition? And isn't the Hurricane loosely a modular motor?? I then present the new Boss at 6 liters plus. And it can be a high rever 6500 plus rpm.

 

 

This has been a long thread with lots of history, carnut.

 

Ford is now branding hi-po motors as BOSS, separate from the car, if and when it's done. The BOSS crate motor is independent of the car.

 

I agree with you, as I think Jetsolver and Fanatic would also, that we will see a Boss Mustang (the car) based on the formerly-called Hurricane (now to be a "BOSS" SOHC engine). But that could take some time depending on when such an engine get's (re)developed in alloy (the truck program which is likely carrying much of the base 5.8/6.2 SOHC BOSS engineering development expense is likely in iron for the F-series).

 

So we've been exploring the feasibility of Ford doing the/a BOSS based on a modular variant (the Hurricane is not part of the modular family -- dif bore spacing, etc. Deep down inside we all seem to crave an killer alloy modular DOHC 5.0 BOSS. Problem is the modular bore-spacing won't permit that (without great expense and/or spray-bore like boy-racer, etc) on a 4.6L alloy motor and Ford has no engineered 5.4 modular alloy, except the Ford GT motor (which is a very expensive variant specific to the F-GT).

 

It's unlikely Ford will invest heavily in the mod series as an alloy BOSS since it's already stretched to the limit as a 5.4 in the GT500 and, as you point out GM has the LS2. That's why we feel the modular family is now effectively dead-ended (though we crave the DOHC breathing that NA cams in the F-GT heads could produce) and expensive.

 

As RUF points out: here's my BOSS (Rufstang)! Except less than 400HP is not competitive with the GM/DCX offerings and Ford would likely never put out a BOSS on the 4.6 GT base -- it's a sweet motor, but a 3V BOSS isn't consistent with what a BOSS needs to be, even if Ford used the enhanced 3V heads/cams on an unmodded 4.6 base and the 4.6 alloy Cobra would need a cooling strategy similar to the mods in the 5.4 for the GT500 and, even then, a suitable intake is missing -- unless Ford uses the $3,100 FRP for the 4.6 or the much more expensive one from the boy-racer or the carbon fiber man-racer variant of which only the $3,100FRP part is even vaguely suitable for production and still far too expensive for BOSS price points... the first for the 3v the latter two for the 4v heads.

 

So, I think where we came around (realtive to a BOSS Mustang) to the following:

- that the mod is/must-be deadended (lacking an alloy 5.4 and no viable production 5.0 on the modular base)

- the BOSS crate (based loosely on the thin-wall 30 but beefed as a rece base -- announced last week) lacks an ECU-managed version suitable for a production/emissions 150,000mile motor <lol>

- a future BOSS engine (based on the SOHC 'Hurricane' is the best bet (based on cost, competitiveness and CAFE/emissions [DoD and VVT, etc almost certainly already under development for it in the truck]) but may lack an alloy derivative in the near future, but ...that is the best direction for Ford. Unfortunately, it wont be DOHC either -- at least for some time if ever, but alloy is essential for the mustang.

 

So, Ford should:

- kill the modulars (or get serious about alloy 5.4 as an interim (expensive))

- leave the BOSS 302 (engine) as a crate (or serve up a complete ECU-version asap (by MY'09))

- ready a Hurricane-BOSS motor in alloy for a serious BOSS (car) in '09

 

Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but that's likey the pressures and considerations Ford must wrestle with if they haven't already. Personally, their actions seem to indicate they are still tentative on a specific strategy because they have closed no options off, have stopped and started the Hurricane program at least twice, but neither have they clearly articulated or selected a specific path (that we know of anyway) ;-)

 

And, possibly, we've missed several other tradeoffs/considerations we aren't even aware of.

 

-------------

 

Btw, those posts and article links all work off the same info from Ford at SEMA: the BOSS is back. But they are taking about the BOSS crate 302 for track/racing -- not an ECU/production motor. Yes, Ford also showed a "2007 Boss 302" but that's not a production car -- it's a S197 variant done by Galpin Auto Sports for Ford or with Fords authorization... a little SEMA slight-of-hand to get our juces going at SEMA, but unrelated to the big-block SOHC BOSS (to come in '09??).

 

PS -- It's possible Ford will do a Boss 302 based on a full ECU-variant of the Boss 302 crate unveiled at SEMA, but ask anyone with a Ford label on their shirt and they don't have any idea -- or they point you to the non-production Galpin one-off -- hmmm.

[MustangFanatic]

Excellent summary as always Dan!! And yes, I do agree that any new Boss Mustang will have Hurricane (Boss engine series) power. As Dan stated, the modular engine series and the Boss (aka Hurricane) engine series are two completely different engine families with different underlying architecture. I do believe Ford would be interested in doing a modular-based 5.0L DOHC Boss Mustang but given their limited cash resources, it isn't going to happen. I think Ford may have desired to bring the Boss back in '08 but because a suitable engine was not going to be available, they chose instead to offer the Bullitt and hold on the Boss until the Boss engine (aka Hurricane) was production ready. As I've indicated before, I think Ford can offer an 5.0L 4V DOHC version of the upcoming Hurricane engine, however, it remains to be seen if they WILL (again, timing and available resources may render the argument to produce such an animal academic).

 

Jetsolver, great find!! What a beautiful engine, I especially love the Weber-esque EFI setup. I have always thought that was the most beautiful bad intake setup. Reminds me of the old Can-Am cars :hyper:

 

Ruf, your car is coming together beautifully, very sweet - and in my favorite color!!

 

CobraFan, your points regarding HP ratings are well taken. Today's engines are a marvel of engineering, making more HP per cubic inch (or liter for those metrically inclined) while getting much better MPG and enduring more than 100K of hard driving. If I remember correctly, the Boss 429 was heavily under-rated as well, making closer to 500 HP.

 

As far as what I want out of a Boss Mustang, Dan hit the nail on the head - a balanced SVT-style car, no overblown, over-hyped boulevard bruiser like the GT500 but a true driver's car. The ideal Boss makes it's power the old fashioned way, naturally aspirated and revs freely past 7K. Power output must be in the neighborhood of 400 hp with a tight 6 spd gearbox and optional rear end ratios. Handling must be unmatched in it's class, with some version of a rear IRS (maybe the Control Blade IRS used down under). I'm willing to give up some ride comfort to have taunt (not harsh) handling. Suspension engineers have proven that you can design a suspension that will handle well without requiring passengers to wear a kidney belt. Braking must also be world class with at least 14" front brakes with 4 or 6 piston calipers. Rear brakes must be equally impressive, 13" single or dual piston calipers. The rest of the car should focus on achieving the maximum driving experience. Heavily bolstered cloth seats are just fine for me, I don't need on-board naviagation, heated seats, cruise control or a 600 watt stereo. The only options that I will concede is AC and a decent stereo system (even a single CD player is fine). Ideally, I'd like to see Ford offer exterior styling similar to the PJ Saleen but I will accept the V6 car's exterior if Ford can deliver the performance goods. Curb weight has to be kept in check, ideally 3,200 lbs with a full load of fuel. In short, I want a balanced driver's car with plenty of acceleration, handling and braking for an affordable ($35K - $38K price). Umm, think I want too much - yes but I'm worth it

[C0braFan]

Maybe I missed this along the way or it was discussed earlier, but why are we dismissing the iron 5.4 GT500 engine sans the supercharger as a potential Boss engine? It's based on the 2000 Cobra R and Ford AU has done great things with this block (right at 370 HP--isn't that exactly what everyone wants?).

 

 

[MustangFanatic]

Maybe I missed this along the way or it was discussed earlier, but why are we dismissing the iron 5.4 GT500 engine sans the supercharger as a potential Boss engine? It's based on the 2000 Cobra R and Ford AU has done great things with this block (right at 370 HP--isn't that exactly what everyone wants?).

 

 

 

 

I believe the basic rationale is that we wanted to see the Boss engine in all-aluminum alloy to keep the weight down. The 5.4L sans SC is still a heavy engine with the iron block. Certainly the 5.4L engine can be had in all-alloy form (see Ford GT) but at a very heady price. Certainly the HP is on target but in order to step up the handling and braking performance for the Boss Mustang, the weight must come down.

[JETSOLVER]

Cost,parts and production capacity. The 00 R was VERY expensive and the Aussie car is even more so.

 

The Aussie engine has much in country labour work on the intake and heads(the 00 R head will not work and the GT heads are a pretty pricey development of that head). As well we as yet have no ready production intake(think Dan covered that pretty well), or production testing(they would have to be pretty close to durability testing by late spring I would think for a fall/Detroit introduction). That does not preclude anything, but an iron block will not rev very high(the limit on the GT500 is an indication) and will weigh substantially more than the 3v al block currently in the Stang GT. I have an estimate of the blown 5.4 as being as much as 300/350 lbs more than a take out stang engine. Call it about 225/250 lbs minus the blower and you still have a pretty heavy pony, all on the front end. As well, the possible production constraints I suggested may have some effect on this package as well.

 

All of this makes the cost factor a bigger one. Unless they bring to market the car at 40k, I doubt they can fit enough good stuff(add in the six-speed as well) and make it seem like enough bang for the buck at say 37k(in the middle of some earlier guesses) to find a market to offset the costs in engineering and testing.

 

I suspect the pkg. you propose might be closer to a MACH varient than a 302 Boss.

 

What do you think CObrafan?

[C0braFan]

The Aussie engine has much in country labour work on the intake and heads(the 00 R head will not work and the GT heads are a pretty pricey development of that head). As well we as yet have no ready production intake(think Dan covered that pretty well), or production testing(they would have to be pretty close to durability testing by late spring I would think for a fall/Detroit introduction). That does not preclude anything, but an iron block will not rev very high(the limit on the GT500 is an indication) and will weigh substantially more than the 3v al block currently in the Stang GT. I have an estimate of the blown 5.4 as being as much as 300/350 lbs more than a take out stang engine. Call it about 225/250 lbs minus the blower and you still have a pretty heavy pony, all on the front end. As well, the possible production constraints I suggested may have some effect on this package as well.

 

All of this makes the cost factor a bigger one. Unless they bring to market the car at 40k, I doubt they can fit enough good stuff(add in the six-speed as well) and make it seem like enough bang for the buck at say 37k(in the middle of some earlier guesses) to find a market to offset the costs in engineering and testing.

 

 

 

I disagree with your figures. A Mustang GT weighs 3500 while a GT500 is at 3900, which includes a reinforced frame, larger brakes, T56, and the supercharger, which I believe is around 150 lbs alone. Comparing block to block, the iron 5.4 is only about 100 lbs heavier than the aluminum 4.6. There are 300 lbs in the other items.

 

As far as revving goes, the 4.6 and 5.4 both redline at 6250. If you look at any modern performance vehicle, you'll find a similar redline. Such as the 2004 Viper SRT10 (6000), 2006 Charger SRT8 (6400), 2005 Ford GT (6500). The block does not affect the redline, it's the weight of the rotating assembly that affects rpms. The GT500 has a forged crank, while the GT's is cast, so the 5.4 should be capable of a bit more (safely).

 

If you think back on the old Boss 302 with the Cleveland heads, it was a pig off the line, simply because it was a road racer not a drag car. It made power way up in the stratosphere. But the 4.6 and 5.4 make the most power up near their redlines so 7000+ rpm isn't necessary. Not in a street car, anyway. NASCAR engines run in the 8000 range, so a street Boss Mustang certainly doesn't need anywhere near those kinds of rpms. Why would it? No one is going to enter their $36,000 Boss Mustang with Premium leather interior to a Trans Am race (for one thing, it wouldn't be permitted without a rollcage). Those cars are 100% custom built from the frame up. Hence, the $125,000 FR500C Trans Am Mustang.

 

Cost is not a factor because the 5.4 has already gone through certifications and the production line is already accustomed to fitting it into a Mustang chassis. The tranny will be smaller than the GT500's which will not affect anything (the 5-speed is perfectly fine as is), and the supercharger is missing, also easing the installation work.

 

So, I say the iron 5.4 is absolutely the best choice for a Boss Mustang. Ford has the torque-monster GT500 to blow away the Challenger and Camaro on the drag strip and Autobahnen. And Ford has the Shelby GT to smoke them on the street and track. Even if DC and GM put 400 horses under their respective hoods, they're dealing with an estimated 3900-4100 lbs, which cannot keep up with a Shelby GT on the turns. Why does Ford need a Boss Mustang? The justification for such car would be to take on DC and GM, and that is already wrapped up.

 

I predict next summer we'll see the Bullitt, continued production of the existing GT500, and the Shelby GT will continue to be built at Shelby Autos when the 08's come out (perhaps with some new color options) but will be indistinguishable from the 07. Then in summer of 08 (MY'09), we'll see a Mach1, continued Shelby GT (with either Shelby Autos offering a "GT350" upgrade kit or Ford using the name outright), and continued production of the GT500 (also with Shelby Autos upgrades, suc has the "KR" kit reportedly coming next spring). Beyond MY'09, it is impossible to speculate because Ford's future is too uncertain.

[JETSOLVER]

Not to get into a peeing match, the first thing is that the GT500 is exactly the same chassis as a V6. No added reinforcement. The shipping weight of dressed engines says 250+ lbs and I have subtracted some to make a reasonable guess. That is all I'm comparing here as any other numbers will stay about the same(minus leather and heated seats, stereo etc.) The 4.6 MOD 4 valves ran to 7200 before the rev limiter cut in. And they had forged cranks as well. The biggest factor between the 5.4l GT and a 4.6l 4 valve is not the weight of the rotating assy(although it is a factor) it is the accute rod angle.

 

Cost is the big factor as the only N/A 5.4l is the iron truck version or the limited production and very expensive 00 R engines. The 00 R will not pass current emissions. Ford never went any further with a performance varient of the Nat. Asp. 5.4 and the heads are an old superseeded casting( the Current GT heads as used on the GT and the GT500 are a development casting with significant differances in cooling swirl and airflow). They have no current intake and would have to devleop one from scratch to meet new testing requirements. The Aussie parts are heavily modified versions of the older 00 R castings and Australia has signifcantly easier emissions regs than the States. And a naturally asperated 5.4 would not have the torque of the GT 500 and so the 6 speed with its closer together ratios is a given.

 

Again not to start anything, just want the facts out there.

[MustangFanatic]

Thanks Jet, I completely neglected the cost issue in my reply. Given Ford's current state, I cannot see them investing significant dollars to develop and emission certify an engine just for a Boss Mustang which is essentially the case if they were to use a 5.4L 4V engine. Additionally, as you pointed out, the 00R heads are now obsolete and the Ford GT heads are exceeding expensive. The bottom line is that I seriously doubt any new Boss Mustang will leave the factory with mod engine power under the hood. The new Boss engine series (Hurricane) is the most likely choice. Let's just hope this new engine series is all we hope it can be - powerful, oversquare, rev-friendly and available in all-alloy form - and in at least three variations, 5.0L, 5.8L and 6.2L.....hey, a guy can dream, right?

 

Just to a bit, anyone notice that the PJ Saleen is now rated at 400 hp?

 

http://www.saleen.com/saleen_parnelli_specs.htm

[68fastback]

Jet and Fanatic: +1 and +1 ;-)

 

Fanatic, 3200lbs might be a bit too much to ask since the gutted manracer tips in at 3,105 -- but, hey, I'm with ya on the wish list for sure

 

Cobrafan, I agree Ford doesn't have to do a Boss Mustang, but it NEEDS to do one, IMHO. I don't think it's a question of not being able to run it at the track as is (the '69 wasn't track-ready either), but even the vintage one, rated jokingly at 290HP, was only about .1 sec behind the Boss 429 because it was light. It's what a Boss302 was... an understated, lightweight, uber-handling, small-block mustang that revved to 7800rpm due to 4"x3" oversquare geometry and resulting mild rod angles even with it's relatively low-deck (8.2") height. The 5.4 just isn't going to rev like that without exotic components and great expense. A 4"x3" 302 wants to rev. Driving a high revving engine with close ratio tranny is a totally different driving experience than a big-stroke motor -- it's a precision driving tool -- Ford hasn't had one in half of forever! <lol>. Sorry, don't mean to be preaching (sometimes words in print get easily misunderstood), just reflecting on your feeling that the GT500 and NA iron 5.4mod will do the trick against camaro/chal which I don't agree with. Ford needs a balanced, curve-carving, street version of the 'manracer' with a rev-happy oversquare alloy na motor and six-speed to keep the revs in the NA hi-rev-HP sweet spot on any track -- that's the heritage of the Boss -- a balanced, killer, road-car.

 

Btw, that new Boss302/331 block is impressive... Canted-R heads, 4-bolt nodular-iron mains on 2,3,4, with splayed outer fasteners (even the original's were inline, not splayed, for ease of production). The blocks are cast by the company who casts Ford diesels (from the same 41,000psi hi-tin steel and they're CNC machined by a hi-tech contractor in Michigan (don't have name handy but can get it if interested). It's worlds tougher than the venerable dirt-track race block and even considerably tougher and with far better cooling and oiling than the FRP 302R block and has siamesed cyls and cross-drilled-cooling to boot! It's also been designed to accept even large-diameter roller lifters and the oiling needed for super-lift cams at high-revs. This new Boss 302 block is impresive. That motor in alloy with OHC heads would be a knockout! Put it in a well-prepped lightweight 'stang and it's an orgasm on wheels! ...outrun a friggin' hemi Challenger AND run circles around it on a road course too.

 

[C0braFan]

What an idiotic suggestion...a production Mustang doing 7,000+ rpms. This whole discussion has degraded to not just wishful debating, but now to wholly unrealistic demands that you know good and well are impossible for Ford to deliver. Who in their right mind is going to rev a brand new Boss Mustang to 7000+ rpm, just because it can? Even if Ford built exactly what you want and sold 10,000 units, a handful of guys will take it to the track.

 

You don't engineer a product for 0.01% of the target audience. You engineer it for 90% and try to appease the rest with special models (like the R/T, SRT, SVT brands). The 0.01% of guys...like you...who think you need 7000+ rpm...are inconsequential. If you want that kind of engine, go have one built and install it in a generic V6 Mustang like Saleen did with the PJ. Demanding/begging it of Ford is a waste of time (for Ford and on this forum).

[JETSOLVER]

What an idiotic suggestion...a production Mustang doing 7,000+ rpms. This whole discussion has degraded to not just wishful debating, but now to wholly unrealistic demands that you know good and well are impossible for Ford to deliver. Who in their right mind is going to rev a brand new Boss Mustang to 7000+ rpm, just because it can? Even if Ford built exactly what you want and sold 10,000 units, a handful of guys will take it to the track.

 

You don't engineer a product for 0.01% of the target audience. You engineer it for 90% and try to appease the rest with special models (like the R/T, SRT, SVT brands). The 0.01% of guys...like you...who think you need 7000+ rpm...are inconsequential. If you want that kind of engine, go have one built and install it in a generic V6 Mustang like Saleen did with the PJ. Demanding/begging it of Ford is a waste of time (for Ford and on this forum).

 

 

 

Heh heh. I wondered if you were going to show your ignorance of the facts. Fact The96-01 Mustangs were produced in numbers rangeing from 156 000 units to 177 000, each model year. The N/A SVT COBRA's were produced in numbers ranging from 7151 to 10 049. Do the math. And the redline on those cars(the factory fuel cutoff) was set to start pulling fuel at 7000 and the hard limiter was(is) 7200. I now have mine set at a street friendly 7400, and that is with about 50 000 miles on a bone stock bottom end(it is rather over built based on standards like yours)and constantly run all the way through the gears right up to and over the limiter. On race tracks.

 

So, to sum up, numbers about 4 to 7% of total Mustangs, redlines well over 7000 and sold to knowing owners who were and are encouraged to take part in factory offered and supported performance driving on race tracks.

Your wrong!

Suck it!!!

[MustangFanatic]

CobraFan, you seem to be passionate about your Mustangs as do the rest of us here, however, insulting remarks can not be tolerated. Certainly you are entitled to your opinion and we openly encourage everyone to express their opinion and politely disagree on any topic. I'm sure others would agree that everyone here values the thoughts and ideas of those participating in this forum and we should respect everyone's opinion and not respond in a way that can be viewed as a personal attack.

 

Like Dan, I would like to see Ford offer another free-revving (7K redline), multi-cam, multi-valve engine in the Boss making serious HP in a nimble chassis set up for serious corner carving and braking. I would also like to see Ford offer a Mach I aimed at the street strip crowd. It isn't what I desire in my next Mustang but Ford should produce it. And I'm sure if they do, not every buyer will take the car to the strip but it still doesn't mean the car shouldn't be built nor does it mean buyers so inclined should be berated for their choice.

[68fastback]

Cobrafan, I'm not sure why you feel it unusual, let alone idiotic, for a car to rev well past 7K. My '01 Cobra peaks at 6,800 and runs strong up past 7,000 dead stock. We're not asking for 8,000+ (though '69Boss 302 had no problem going that far, it was just past the sweetspot). An oversquare NA motor WANTS to rev high and must do so to develop maximum power since, by definition, an oversquare motor isn't a torquer by the very physics of the design. Free revving engines are what driving joy is all about. With the return of engines that are not bore-spacing constrained, it would foolish for Ford not to offer a mustang targeted at that under-served segment -- underserved because in an effort to stretch displacement, the 5.4 modular has pushed stroke to the limit which precludes free revving but substitutes hi-torque. Nothing wrong with that, just that some of us want to chose from both flavors again ;-)

 

-Dan

[MustangFanatic]

Anyone hearing any rumors regarding what may be revealed in up-coming autoshows in NYC, Detroit, etc?

[68fastback]

Anyone hearing any rumors regarding what may be revealed in up-coming autoshows in NYC, Detroit, etc?

 

 

Haven't heard a thing. I'm feeling they can't wait to much longer to start hinting at the direction for the Lightning replacement (SporTrac, I'd bet), but they could certainly wait on the '09 Boss -- unfortunately ;-)

 

.

[JETSOLVER]

I'm hoping for some leakage from Fords virtual showroom dealer meeting in the first week of Dec. I understand that there will be many more attendee's than usual for mulitple reasons.

[Ford blue blood]

The 70 Boss 302 I owned saw 7500 RPM + on a regular basis. Any Boss 302 owner will tell you the first thing that happened with the rev limiter in those car was it got disconnected. The stock engine would pull hard through 6800 and often time was lost shifting up and then back down so it just stayed in second and ran the revs up. After top end modifications and new pistons it would pull its guts out to 8500!

 

If you read the many road test comparing the 99 Cobra to Camero and T/A V-8s the driving style was not adjusted for the hi reving Cobra engine. It loved being spun up and mine lived happy in the upper bands!

 

Now the 03 Cobra is a totally different animal and has bounced off the rev limiter more times than I can count. It pulls hard all the way to the limit, the limiter could be moved up 1000 I believe.

 

Now having said all of that, building a 7K motor for a "new" Boss 302 is no more ridiculus then missing the opportunity to once again shut down GM and Chrysler.

[68fastback]

The 70 Boss 302 I owned saw 7500 RPM + on a regular basis. Any Boss 302 owner will tell you the first thing that happened with the rev limiter in those car was it got disconnected. The stock engine would pull hard through 6800 and often time was lost shifting up and then back down so it just stayed in second and ran the revs up. After top end modifications and new pistons it would pull its guts out to 8500!

 

If you read the many road test comparing the 99 Cobra to Camero and T/A V-8s the driving style was not adjusted for the hi reving Cobra engine. It loved being spun up and mine lived happy in the upper bands!

 

Now the 03 Cobra is a totally different animal and has bounced off the rev limiter more times than I can count. It pulls hard all the way to the limit, the limiter could be moved up 1000 I believe.

 

Now having said all of that, building a 7K motor for a "new" Boss 302 is no more ridiculus then missing the opportunity to once again shut down GM and Chrysler.

 

+1 and AMEN, bro!

 

And to brand-X, I say :bowdown:

[MustangFanatic]

The 70 Boss 302 I owned saw 7500 RPM + on a regular basis. Any Boss 302 owner will tell you the first thing that happened with the rev limiter in those car was it got disconnected. The stock engine would pull hard through 6800 and often time was lost shifting up and then back down so it just stayed in second and ran the revs up. After top end modifications and new pistons it would pull its guts out to 8500!

 

If you read the many road test comparing the 99 Cobra to Camero and T/A V-8s the driving style was not adjusted for the hi reving Cobra engine. It loved being spun up and mine lived happy in the upper bands!

 

Now the 03 Cobra is a totally different animal and has bounced off the rev limiter more times than I can count. It pulls hard all the way to the limit, the limiter could be moved up 1000 I believe.

 

Now having said all of that, building a 7K motor for a "new" Boss 302 is no more ridiculus then missing the opportunity to once again shut down GM and Chrysler.

 

 

 

+ 2!!!

 

I'm hoping for some leakage from Fords virtual showroom dealer meeting in the first week of Dec. I understand that there will be many more attendee's than usual for mulitple reasons.

 

 

Excellent, I hope some Boss news leaks out, the suspense is killing me!! :hyper:

[C0braFan]

CobraFan, you seem to be passionate about your Mustangs as do the rest of us here, however, insulting remarks can not be tolerated. Certainly you are entitled to your opinion and we openly encourage everyone to express their opinion and politely disagree on any topic. I'm sure others would agree that everyone here values the thoughts and ideas of those participating in this forum and we should respect everyone's opinion and not respond in a way that can be viewed as a personal attack.

 

MustangFanatic..... If that is truly your belief, then shouldn't you be correcting those who actually are use personally insulting language? My statement was directed at someone's argument, while I have been personally insulted. What's up with that...you don't wanna disagree your old-time buddies like Jetsolver who calls me "ignorant" and tells me to "suck it"? How is that less insulting than saying some point of view is "idiotic"? There's no comparison. If "suck it" is acceptable language here, then....

 

 

 

Jetsolver, just because your Cobra engine can hit 7800 rpm, doesn't mean it makes the most power up there. What's the peak hp/lb-ft for a 2004 Cobra? According to Ford, it makes most power at 6000. What's the point of revving it to 7000+ when it will lose hp up there?

 

We ARE talking about stock engines, are we not? This thread demands that we talk about a N/A Boss built by Ford. So don't give me any crap about Cobra modifications to support your argument about rpms.

 

 

Either the 4.6 pulls rpms or it doesn't. What's it gona be, guys? Are you pretending that the Cobra engine is not a 4.6? What...is that taboo in your club? The white elephant in the room?

 

The 3V won't cut it, but the 4V w/forged crank can easily hit 7800 by disabling the limiter? And yet....that wouldn't make a good Boss engine either. Hmm. That's an interesting deduction. I don't suppose it matters that we're talking about essentially the same block here.

 

Take the S/C off your typical Cobra and what have you? 305 "Mach1" horses, that's what. How is this any better or worse than the 3V in the 05-07? So what...add a forged crank, forged rods, forged pistons. You're still not dealing with excessive costs.

 

Saleen/PJ certainly thinks the 3V would make a great 400 N/A Boss engine. In fact...last time I checked...they built one. This engine makes the most power at 6000 rpm.

 

Effectively b#(%@ slapped...who wants to make the next case for ridiculous rpms? Bring it.

[68fastback]

.

 

C0braFan, what are you talking about?

 

Maybe you jumped in to the middle of this thread without reading back?

 

We were discussing what we'd like to see in a Boss Mustang. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, whatever they are but I have to say you're sounding crazed about something but what that is isn't clear -- at least to me.

 

First off, we were feeling that new Boss 302 should be just that: 302 CID and true to it's heritage ...what it was relative to what other mustangs were. It was a highly oversquare, NA motor that loved to rev. How does that mean we think a modular doesn't rev? Who ever said that?

 

I think a modular would make a sweet Boss 302. Problem is, it can only get to 302 with a special crank (like Saleen uses) or with additional bore which the modular isn't physically capable of accepting unless the 4.6's liners are replaced with the metalurgic magic of spray-bore like the mustang GrandAm racers. The latter is a better solution for an NA motor -- which is precisely why Ford went that route for the GrandAm. A stroked 4.6 would certainly work also, but that's not what the discussion was about.

 

What we were discussing is what options make sense for Ford long term AND would make a Boss that's true to it's heritage AND can stand up to the coming competition.

 

From a Ford point of view, spray-bore is likely not ready for production volumes of 10K or so. If Ford were to go the 4.6 stroker route, though less desireable to many of us (maybe not to you though), and meet all of Fords stringent and conservative testing, the 3V heads would not get you well up over 400HP unless high-lift/high-duration cams are used -- them emissions and CAFE are toast.

 

Ford could use the '01 Cobra heads, but (again with good emissions and CAFE contribution) yield around 320HP... maybe even 350 tops before violating the above considerations.

 

Of course Ford could use the Ford GT heads, recammed for NA. Those cams would have to be developed AND an appropriate intake would too because one does not presently exist for those heads. Certainly doable, but that's even more investment for a car with a 10K run. And with that undersquare geometry it would want to make it's peak power around 5800-6200 and rev comfortably to 6500 or so (that's Ford revs, not what you could do, but how Ford would likely have to rate it for warranty/150K testing). Not bad. But would it make 400HP and emissions and CAFE, etc.? Dunno, but Ford killed the 4.6-based niche-Boss program recently, so maybe not ...or maybe there are other considerations we are unaware of. But that would be a Romeo-niche build, require new parts and development (cams and intake) and more. Btw, FRP has hi-flow heads and a ported dual-runner magnesium intake (not the mag plenum unit from the racers) for the 4.6 but they cost a small fortune -- would add near $10K all together.

 

So, on an alloy modular base, a 302 NA motor doesn't have any real solution that is: cost effective, doesn't require significant development, can exceed 400HP with existing FRP NA parts, and with good emissions and carrry it's part of CAFE.

 

Now, given the fairly well grounded rumors that Ford has the Hurricane/Boss (not the carb'd Boss crates intro'd 10-31-06) coming for the F-series in 2008, and likely also in a 'Ligntning' Explorer SportTrac, and having 2V SOHC canted-valve heads with significantly larger bore spacing to permit a rev-happy oversquare design, that would be a great base for a 2009 Boss (302 or 351 cid?) and development costs can ride mostly on the truck program (remember, mustang may be the center of our and HTT's universe, but it isn't the center of Ford's). Further, those rumors forsee a 4V DOHC version following that with considerably more displacement and believed capable of welll over 600 NA HP) - a nice base for a Boss 429?

 

Of course we may see both for a while: Boss S197 in 2008 (302?), another Boss on the refreshed '09 (351?)and maybe another killer Boss on the '12 ground-up radical re-engineered 'stang (429?) -- number in parens for historical correlation only ;-)

 

Anyhow, that's kinda where we were at: Ford is at the cusp, it would appear, of rebasing it's production hi-po plan to a new engine architecture -- with in-vehicle iron likely ready in just a couple/few years. If that's so, will they keep a true hi-po base on the present modulars. mabe for a year or two, but long term: unlikely! It may remain the 'hi-po' base for the tape and paint 'Special Editions' I'm sure we'll see in the short term, but the serious offerings will almost surely move to the the new engine architecture asap, which brings with it production/emissions friendly tech like DoD, VVT/VDT and GDI and offers much more performance at conservative, scale-production, CAFE/emissions-friendly levels.

 

If you were Ford, what would you do? Invest further in a 'dead-end' present modular (as much as we love them)? Or tape and sticker for the short term until real competition arrives for you to punch-out with a volume H/Boss production motor followed by a killer H/Boss specialty motor.

 

I love the current DOHC modulars but the next one is just plain better all around -- that's the one I'd choose.

 

That's where we were at. Maybe our comments make more sense in the context of the rumors and speculation we were assuming from numerous dialogs/threads.

 

Have fun, now... ;-) that's why we're all here, right?!

 

-Dan

[JETSOLVER]

 

Jetsolver, just because your Cobra engine can hit 7800 rpm, doesn't mean it makes the most power up there. What's the peak hp/lb-ft for a 2004 Cobra? According to Ford, it makes most power at 6000. What's the point of revving it to 7000+ when it will lose hp up there?

 

Again the discussion is about N/A engines. The 2004 COBRA is an iron block supercharged engine. What is so hard for you to understand?

 

We ARE talking about stock engines, are we not? This thread demands that we talk about a N/A Boss built by Ford. So don't give me any crap about Cobra modifications to support your argument about rpms.

Either the 4.6 pulls rpms or it doesn't. What's it gona be, guys? Are you pretending that the Cobra engine is not a 4.6? What...is that taboo in your club? The white elephant in the room?

 

Are you challenged? That is now two of us who are telling you that the engine does it. What else is there to say?

 

The 3V won't cut it, but the 4V w/forged crank can easily hit 7800 by disabling the limiter? And yet....that wouldn't make a good Boss engine either. Hmm. That's an interesting deduction. I don't suppose it matters that we're talking about essentially the same block here.

 

It is not the same block, PERIOD!

 

Take the S/C off your typical Cobra and what have you? 305 "Mach1" horses, that's what. How is this any better or worse than the 3V in the 05-07? So what...add a forged crank, forged rods, forged pistons. You're still not dealing with excessive costs.

 

That cylinder head is flow maxed at about 350 horses(as it was designed for a TRUCK!!!). It redlines at less than 6000 revs. There is currently no existing forged crank for it(although they could use the older COBRA design)

 

Effectively b#(%@ slapped...who wants to make the next case for ridiculous rpms? Bring it.

 

You still don't know what you are typing. Please do some research and come back and add something of value.

 

 

 

 

As has been established by multiple people, you have no idea what you are talking about. The Aluminum block Romeo built COBRA's were underrated at 305 horses 11 years ago! The GT heads on that short block and a new dual stage intake, let alone VVT(I would explain that, but frankly I suspect that is beyond you as well) should be able to reach in the region of 400 horses. An Aluminum 5.4 with expensive H beam rods would excede it easily, altough that would require less revs and a trade off in throttle response due to the recip mass added to deal with the rod angle.

 

Do you have any intelligent input or are going to continue to waste everyones time with more baseless statements?

[MustangFanatic]

Dan, well crafted response and certainly sums up the discussions so far. I continue to believe Ford will invest no further R&D dollars on a new Hi-Po Modular engine of any displacement. They may offer tape and stripe packages with select FRPP parts in the interim until the new Boss engine series (aka Hurricane) comes on line. If Ford were awash in cash, they MIGHT consider developing a new niche modular engine but with their current negative cash flow and the recent news pointing to the launch of the Boss engine series, any thoughts of offering a sweet DOHC modular for a Boss Mustang are effectively squashed.

 

I would personally love to see Ford develop a spray bore 5.0L DOHC modular engine sporting Ford GT heads, a trick intake and at least 400 hp for a Boss 302 Mustang. However, given the extreme cost of such a beast, the price of a Boss Mustang would be above the current PJ Saleen.

 

CObrafan, I don't know what else to say to you other than you need to consider any insults directed at you resulted from the tone and language you utilized in responding to an opinion or fact presented by another. As Dan pointed out, no one here stated they wouldn’t like to see a modular engine based Boss Mustang but given the design constraints of the modular engine (steep rod angles, limited bore spacing) and the economies at play, a 5.0L mod engine is not feasible without an infusion of cash that is in short supply at Ford. Additionally, the recent discussions in this thread have focused on what we would like to see Ford include in an ’09 Boss using the up-coming Boss engine series as power. As far as the potential RPM limit of such an engine, the major point the keep in mind here is that Ford should provide the proper high performance hardware (forged pistons, rods, crank, free-flowing aluminum alloy cylinder heads and intake all housed in an alloy block) to provide a basis for those who wish to exceed the factory rev limiter to achieve more HP without requiring a total revamp of the engine. Such a combination should easily rev to 7K for those so inclined.

[shelbang]

valium, top shelf behind the cough syrup

[MustangFanatic]

valium, top shelf behind the cough syrup

 

 

I prefer to keep mine next to the Jack Daniels Point taken, as Dan said, let's have fun!!

[Ford blue blood]

In my humble opinion CObraFan has never pushed any of the vehicles (engines) he is talking about to the limits. I further believe he does not understand the fundamentals of making and using HP nor the effects various modifications to a given package will have on the street worthyness or competitiveness. Oh, he can regergitate all sorts of printed material but there is no substitute for "hands on" seat of the pants experiance and the language and coments he has made indicate a lack of understanding.

 

Now back to the original discussion.......Ford hit a home run with the 2005 re-do, they again have beat GM and Chrysler to the punch. Both will be playing "catch up" for a couple of years with respect to the pony car segment. Ford needs to be real carefull not to set back and rest on the success it has had with this car. The HP wars are alive and well and the "nitch" market many of us are in will continue to look for and buy the "new muscle car" that the big three are offering up. Lets hope they (Ford) has the intestinal fortitude to stay on top of the program, the Boss 302 with a high reving killer n/a motor would be a step in the right direction.