RogerS Posted September 5, 2007 Report Share Posted September 5, 2007 In follow up to the first thread and doing more research there is a difference in case height and overall dimention differences which would either allow or not allow a strut tower brace to be installed. The Roush and Whipple are different in case dimention height sizes so what works on a Roush does not work on a Whipple due to engine to hood clearance. There are 3 different types of superchargers on the market 1. Roots Roushcharger 2. Twin Screw Whipple 3. Cintrifugal Paxton, Vortec Each have advantages and disadvantages, information from Superchargersonline.com The roots type blower:The roots supercharger features two counter-rotating lobes that trap air from the intake side of the supercharger (normally at the back of the supercharger), move it around the outside casing of the lobes, and out the bottom of the supercharger through an outlet / discharge port. Like the twin screw supercharger, the roots is a "positive displacement" aka "fixed displacement" supercharger, meaning that it moves a fixed volume of air per rotation. Notwithstanding minor amounts of air-leak at low rpms, the roots supercharger cannot flow backwards like a centrifugal supercharger, and is thus nearly as efficient in its ability to pump air at low rpms as it is at high rpms. What this means is that roots superchargers are very capable of making large amounts of boost even when engine rpms are very low. This makes for great low-end and midrange power, and also makes them great for trucks and towing vehicles. The roots is also self lubricated, and is the simplest of the supercharger designs, meaning it is reasonably priced and very reliable. The only real disadvantage to the roots supercharger is that it creates a lot of heat. There are two reasons for this. First, the roots supercharger does not compress air - it only moves from the intake port to the discharge port (i.e. it is the only supercharger design with no internal compression ratio). All of the compression is done in the intake manifold. Laws of thermodynamics kick in in favor of supercharger designs with an internal compression ratio (centrifugal and twin screw) because they do less work on the incoming air charge. The cintrifugal supercharger: Although the centrifugal supercharger is founded on a technology much newer than either the roots or the twin screw, it was the first supercharger to be successfully applied to automotive applications. Unlike the roots, the centrifugal supercharger is NOT a positive displacement / fixed displacement supercharger because it does not move a fixed volume of air per revolution. The centrifugal supercharger essentially operates like a high speed fan propeller / impeller, sucking air into the center of the supercharger and pushing it to the outside of the rapidly spinning (40,000 + rpm) impeller blades. The air naturally travels to the outside of the blades because of its centrifugal force created by its rotating inertia. At the outside of the blades, a "scroll" is waiting to catch the air molecules. Just before entering the scroll, the air molecules are forced to travel through a venturi, which creates the internal compression. As the air travels around the scroll, the diameter of the scroll increases, which slows the velocity of the air, but further increases its pressure. The centrifugal supercharger enjoys several advantageous characteristics that make it the most popular supercharger design in the aftermarket world. First, it is simple and reliable because it has very few moving parts - just a few gears and the impeller. Second, the centrifugal supercharger produces very little heat because of its internal compression ratio. It is also small in size and very versatile because it can "free-wheel" and allow the engine to suck air through it or even flow air backwards. For this reason it can be placed anywhere in the intake tract - it can even "blow through" the throttle body, meaning it can be mounted nearly anywhere. It is also the most thermally efficient supercharger, meaning that it produces the lowest discharge temperature. The only significant disadvantage of the centrifugal supercharger is that it must be spinning at a relatively high speed before it begins to make a significant amount of boost. For this reason, it is not helpful in creating boost (and power) at low engine rpms. Normally the supercharger only begins to create boost at around 3000 rpm, and the boost curve gradually and increasingly rises with engine RPM. Many centrifugal superchargers do not have a self-lubricating oil system, and draw oil from the engine's oil supply. The disadvantage to this is that you must tap the oil pan for the oil return line. However, in doing so, the supercharger becomes virtually maintenance free. The twin screw supercharger: The twin screw supercharger at first glance appears to look similar to a roots supercharger both inside and out. The two technologies are indeed similar, however there are significant differences. At the heart of the twin-screw supercharger are two rotors, or "screws" that rotate towards each other. The rotors mesh together and draw air from the back of the supercharger. The twisting rotors move the air to the front of the supercharger, while compressing the air before discharging through a port at or near the front of the supercharger. Because the compression is done inside the supercharger, this design produces less heat than a roots supercharger - in fact, it is almost as thermally efficient as a centrifugal design. Like the roots design, the twin-screw is a fixed displacement supercharger (meaning that it pumps a fixed volume of air per revolution), and because the tolerances between the rotating screws are very tight, its ability to create boost at low rpms is unparalleled. These characteristics make it ideal for trucks and towing vehicles, where low to mid range power is primary in importance. Another important advantage of the twin screw compressor is its reliability. Unlike a roots supercharger, the rotors in a twin screw supercharger do not actually touch, so there are virtually no wearing parts. For this reason, twin screw compressors are commonly used to pressurize cabins in passenger aircraft. Like roots superchargers, twin screw superchargers are self lubricated and do not tap into the engine's oil supply. One disadvantage of the twin screw design is that, because it has an internal compression ratio, the twin screw is compressing air even when it is not sending boost to the engine (i.e. under cruising or deceleration). An internal bypass valve releases the pressurized air, but because it takes work to pressurize the air in the first place, the twin screw supercharger draws more power from the engine than while not under boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT2666 Posted September 5, 2007 Report Share Posted September 5, 2007 In follow up to the first thread and doing more research there is a difference in case height and overall dimention differences which would either allow or not allow a strut tower brace to be installed. First there are 3 different types of superchargers 1. Roots Roushcharger 2. Twin Screw Whipple 3. Cintrifugal Paxton, Vortec Each have advantages and disadvantages, information from Superchargersonline.com The roots type blower:The roots supercharger features two counter-rotating lobes that trap air from the intake side of the supercharger (normally at the back of the supercharger), move it around the outside casing of the lobes, and out the bottom of the supercharger through an outlet / discharge port. Like the twin screw supercharger, the roots is a "positive displacement" aka "fixed displacement" supercharger, meaning that it moves a fixed volume of air per rotation. Notwithstanding minor amounts of air-leak at low rpms, the roots supercharger cannot flow backwards like a centrifugal supercharger, and is thus nearly as efficient in its ability to pump air at low rpms as it is at high rpms. What this means is that roots superchargers are very capable of making large amounts of boost even when engine rpms are very low. This makes for great low-end and midrange power, and also makes them great for trucks and towing vehicles. The roots is also self lubricated, and is the simplest of the supercharger designs, meaning it is reasonably priced and very reliable. The only real disadvantage to the roots supercharger is that it creates a lot of heat. There are two reasons for this. First, the roots supercharger does not compress air - it only moves from the intake port to the discharge port (i.e. it is the only supercharger design with no internal compression ratio). All of the compression is done in the intake manifold. Laws of thermodynamics kick in in favor of supercharger designs with an internal compression ratio (centrifugal and twin screw) because they do less work on the incoming air charge. The cintrifugal supercharger: Although the centrifugal supercharger is founded on a technology much newer than either the roots or the twin screw, it was the first supercharger to be successfully applied to automotive applications. Unlike the roots, the centrifugal supercharger is NOT a positive displacement / fixed displacement supercharger because it does not move a fixed volume of air per revolution. The centrifugal supercharger essentially operates like a high speed fan propeller / impeller, sucking air into the center of the supercharger and pushing it to the outside of the rapidly spinning (40,000 + rpm) impeller blades. The air naturally travels to the outside of the blades because of its centrifugal force created by its rotating inertia. At the outside of the blades, a "scroll" is waiting to catch the air molecules. Just before entering the scroll, the air molecules are forced to travel through a venturi, which creates the internal compression. As the air travels around the scroll, the diameter of the scroll increases, which slows the velocity of the air, but further increases its pressure. The centrifugal supercharger enjoys several advantageous characteristics that make it the most popular supercharger design in the aftermarket world. First, it is simple and reliable because it has very few moving parts - just a few gears and the impeller. Second, the centrifugal supercharger produces very little heat because of its internal compression ratio. It is also small in size and very versatile because it can "free-wheel" and allow the engine to suck air through it or even flow air backwards. For this reason it can be placed anywhere in the intake tract - it can even "blow through" the throttle body, meaning it can be mounted nearly anywhere. It is also the most thermally efficient supercharger, meaning that it produces the lowest discharge temperature. The only significant disadvantage of the centrifugal supercharger is that it must be spinning at a relatively high speed before it begins to make a significant amount of boost. For this reason, it is not helpful in creating boost (and power) at low engine rpms. Normally the supercharger only begins to create boost at around 3000 rpm, and the boost curve gradually and increasingly rises with engine RPM. Many centrifugal superchargers do not have a self-lubricating oil system, and draw oil from the engine's oil supply. The disadvantage to this is that you must tap the oil pan for the oil return line. However, in doing so, the supercharger becomes virtually maintenance free. The twin screw supercharger: The twin screw supercharger at first glance appears to look similar to a roots supercharger both inside and out. The two technologies are indeed similar, however there are significant differences. At the heart of the twin-screw supercharger are two rotors, or "screws" that rotate towards each other. The rotors mesh together and draw air from the back of the supercharger. The twisting rotors move the air to the front of the supercharger, while compressing the air before discharging through a port at or near the front of the supercharger. Because the compression is done inside the supercharger, this design produces less heat than a roots supercharger - in fact, it is almost as thermally efficient as a centrifugal design. Like the roots design, the twin-screw is a fixed displacement supercharger (meaning that it pumps a fixed volume of air per revolution), and because the tolerances between the rotating screws are very tight, its ability to create boost at low rpms is unparalleled. These characteristics make it ideal for trucks and towing vehicles, where low to mid range power is primary in importance. Another important advantage of the twin screw compressor is its reliability. Unlike a roots supercharger, the rotors in a twin screw supercharger do not actually touch, so there are virtually no wearing parts. For this reason, twin screw compressors are commonly used to pressurize cabins in passenger aircraft. Like roots superchargers, twin screw superchargers are self lubricated and do not tap into the engine's oil supply. One disadvantage of the twin screw design is that, because it has an internal compression ratio, the twin screw is compressing air even when it is not sending boost to the engine (i.e. under cruising or deceleration). An internal bypass valve releases the pressurized air, but because it takes work to pressurize the air in the first place, the twin screw supercharger draws more power from the engine than while not under boost. These guys make a strut brace that clears the Roush charger as well https://www.strangedevelopment.com/STB_Gallery.htm Not a bad looking piece if it will work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerS Posted September 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2007 Nice piece and thanks again Waldo. The case heights are different meaning that the Whipple is higher and this will not work. I think I might just have to abandon the idea across the top of the SC. Now I am lookng at firewall to strut tower systems. I think I will have better luck with clearance there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milstang Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 Nice piece and thanks again Waldo. The case heights are different meaning that the Whipple is higher and this will not work. I think I might just have to abandon the idea across the top of the SC. Now I am lookng at firewall to strut tower systems. I think I will have better luck with clearance there. Hey not to worry. When I visited I got to see the Shelby GT prototype with the Whipple S/C on it. They were kind enough to take me out in it for a GREAT ride. I talked with John about the strut tower brace as he told me the standard would not fit. He said they were working on one that would fit over the Whipple. He is really passionate and I hammered him with questions and stuff I would like to see. Some of which he had on the parts site three weeks after I visited. I am not saying due to me but it just shows me that he pays attention and they are planning all kinds of new things. I ordered mine on 1 December. Do I want the car, hell yes. That said, I was throughly impressed with the crew there and also amazed they can do so few cars with so few people. John put in a lot of time at work. I got that information from talking to many of the people there, he stays late and gets in at the crack of dawn sometimes. My wife and I were both thrilled when he took us to the Airport, helped get our bags out and was the nicest guy around. I have seen many of the derogatory threads. I have a hard time keeping up right now with the Operations Tempo on all the threads but I just wanted to say that real fast. I know this is probably not the thread but it was an easy segue with the S/C discussion as that was a big factor John and I talked about. Enjoy the cars and if you are still waiting hold on just a little longer. It will be worth it I know. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerS Posted September 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattInDetroit Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 Milstang! How are you doing over there! I actually do think of you often and have wondered how you have been getting on. When are you coming home?? Hope all is well with you, or as well as it can be. Looking forward to seeing your pick-up day pictures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milstang Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 Milstang! How are you doing over there! I actually do think of you often and have wondered how you have been getting on. When are you coming home?? Hope all is well with you, or as well as it can be. Looking forward to seeing your pick-up day pictures! I am doing great! I can honestly say we are kicking butt. I found out that I will be coming back to Ft Bragg, NC and a few other bases for 3-4 months to train up some additional people and will, most likely, go back over for 3-4 months. At that time I will finally return home to my wife around June. I have already talked to John and he is endeavoring to get my car ready for me while I am back during that timeframe. It would be great to actually drive it before heading back over although I am bummed that I have missed all the car shows. I have already told John some of my plans for my car and can hardly wait to start on it once I return. Ironically I have had a vision for my new Mustang since before I returned from Afghanistan over 2 years ago. I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel and the bonus is that I have a Shelby instead of a regular Mustang. My dream is even better. I am envious seeing all the great pictures and reading the stories of all the fun. I am happy for all of you! I look forward to next year hopefully seeing some of you at the car shows I will make it too! B) Stay safe and enjoy these great times!! P.S. I will probably be contacting some of you for info on some of your parts. I have been looking for some that it seems a few of you have found now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milstang Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 I did see your car there Milstang. Hope you are doing ok over there. Are thoughts are with all of you every day. You don't have to tell me about John. Very dedicated, committed to keeping his customers happy and yes in at the crack of dawn and working late most days. I was able to see it for myself. They do have their hands full and trying to develop more or additional parts is not the priority. We just have to wait and be patient. It will come. Oh and I know I didn't have to tell you about John. I wanted to throw in my 2 cents as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerS Posted September 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stump_breaker Posted September 6, 2007 Report Share Posted September 6, 2007 These guys make a strut brace that clears the Roush charger as well https://www.strangedevelopment.com/STB_Gallery.htm Not a bad looking piece if it will work. I wonder why a strut brace has to go over the SC instead of around it? It seems you could make a square that would fit over the SC and then brace off the square to the towers. It should be strong enough with the right material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMGT Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 I wonder why a strut brace has to go over the SC instead of around it? It seems you could make a square that would fit over the SC and then brace off the square to the towers. It should be strong enough with the right material. Stump, Like your idea and this would probably work even better if the back portion tied in to the firewall like some existing designs. Where is our old friend - JB Fabriacator - he should be able to make one of these and sell it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT2666 Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Stump, Like your idea and this would probably work even better if the back portion tied in to the firewall like some existing designs. Where is our old friend - JB Fabriacator - he should be able to make one of these and sell it! I'm trying to remember, but I think my 69 SCJ car just had diagonals running from the firewall to the towers. Not sure how effective that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webba Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Howdy Milstang! Good to hear from you. We are all thinking of you and cant wait for you to get back. Stay safe Roger, great thread and explanation on the different types. I have been wanting to research each and have had no time since the show to do anything but work it seems. You made it real easy for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerS Posted September 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mywickedshelby Posted September 7, 2007 Report Share Posted September 7, 2007 Roger, Congrats, you win the most "Impressive Post of the Month". No bull, you contributions are first rate.... most humble Shelby DD man. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerS Posted September 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrawertz_merged Posted September 8, 2007 Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 This is what I am thinking of doing. It would solve all of the clearance issues, add strength to the tower area and tie in the firewall to eliminate any cowl shake. Thanks Webba. Just trying to let people know the difference and how the different types relate to a Known Product Brand. Roger, Your idea should work. It is kind of like the old Shelby Export Brace combined with a Monte Carlo Bar but all tied together. So it should work better. Do we have a vendor out there currently making this set up of is it going to be a combination of fabricated parts along with an adjustable set up I have seen somewhere. Help a brother out ! Thanks, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerS Posted September 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2007 Rick they do not have a current application for the SN197 platform and none planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.